Asmodean's killer

[Monte]

Sanderson's reveals are so unlike Jordan's. Jordan was always subtle, always kept you guessing. Sanderson hits the reveals home like a hammer leaving no doubt as to what just happened. The characters in TGS and ToM seem to have developed a clairvoyance they never before came close to having. Chalk part of that up to character development, but I liked Jordan's subtlety. That said, someone PLEASE tell me that the reveal to Asmodean's killer wasn't in the glossary under Graendal? That...can't...be...right. Please point out the passage that I MUST have missed, making me either a poor reader or Sanderson more subtle than I thought.

 

Otherwise, I think I'm gonna throw up, after having just finished TGS and ToM for the first time.

[randsc]

Honestly, I never found the whole, "Who killed Asmodean" thing remotely interesting. And I suspect that the same is true of many readers. So getting rid of the whole, distracting and not-very-important "debate" by slipping the reveal into the glossary strikes me as a fairly elegent solution. It gives closer to those who care, while not wasting screen time on the issue when most of us don't care.

[Kadere]

"Mesaana has fallen," Shaidar Haran whispered. "Three Chosen, destroyed by your actions. The design builds, a lattice of failure, a framework of incompetence." - Epilogue, "And After" pg. 830

 

The three Chosen being Asmodean, Mesaana, and Aran'gar. That's the only in text answer we get, and then the glossary confirms it further.

 

Frankly, I find what Shaidar Haran says here to be inaccurate to what we knew back in TFoH and LoC. It seemed quite clear that the Dark One had ordered Asmodean's death since Asmodean had been a traitor. Plus, what incompetent act did Graendal cause that ended with Asmodean's death? It reads like she wasn't supposed to kill him, or she had someone else do it, which REALLY makes no sense.

[Monte]

"Mesaana has fallen," Shaidar Haran whispered. "Three Chosen, destroyed by your actions. The design builds, a lattice of failure, a framework of incompetence." - Epilogue, "And After" pg. 830

 

The three Chosen being Asmodean, Mesaana, and Aran'gar. That's the only in text answer we get, and then the glossary confirms it further.

 

Frankly, I find what Shaidar Haran says here to be inaccurate to what we knew back in TFoH and LoC. It seemed quite clear that the Dark One had ordered Asmodean's death since Asmodean had been a traitor. Plus, what incompetent act did Graendal cause that ended with Asmodean's death? It reads like she wasn't supposed to kill him, or she had someone else do it, which REALLY makes no sense.

 

Thanks Kadere, and you're right, it does make no sense. And Randsc, I respect your opinion, but would you agree that most of the air of mystery around reveals has completely fallen apart, especially those built around prophecies? Perhaps it's better this way as the series comes to a close, but sometimes it seems to obvious, taking away the point and the thrill of the rereads where you can go "Oh wow, that must refer to"...it just seems too...blunt...at times now.

 

By the way, you guys have been on these boards a LOT longer than I have. Was there anyone silly enough to not figure out that losing half the light of the world referred to Mat's eye? I like that it was made about as uncomfortable to read as possible. Losing an eye should not be comfortable. Not to be masochistic or anything, just saying it fit the mood.

[Dream]

...

Frankly, I find what Shaidar Haran says here to be inaccurate to what we knew back in TFoH and LoC. It seemed quite clear that the Dark One had ordered Asmodean's death since Asmodean had been a traitor. Plus, what incompetent act did Graendal cause that ended with Asmodean's death? It reads like she wasn't supposed to kill him, or she had someone else do it, which REALLY makes no sense.

RJ has stated that the Dark One did NOT order Asmodean's death. It seems his murder was a crime of opportunity.

[capuga]

The first reveal is actually early in the book during a conversation between Graendal and Moridin. Paraphrasing:

 

Moridin - Aran'gar is dead because of you. This is getting to be a habit (implying she is responsible for killing more than one).

 

Graendal - I live to serve.

 

Moridin - Are you implying that Aran'gar is (an also is implied here) a traitor (this clearly shows that the other she killed was a traitor)?

 

It actually was a fairly subtle reveal but I knew right away that Asmo's killer was just revealed (although if I wasn't a fansite regular and just a casual reader and specifically looking for the reveal I might have missed it).

[Kadere]

...

Frankly, I find what Shaidar Haran says here to be inaccurate to what we knew back in TFoH and LoC. It seemed quite clear that the Dark One had ordered Asmodean's death since Asmodean had been a traitor. Plus, what incompetent act did Graendal cause that ended with Asmodean's death? It reads like she wasn't supposed to kill him, or she had someone else do it, which REALLY makes no sense.

RJ has stated that the Dark One did NOT order Asmodean's death. It seems his murder was a crime of opportunity.

 

Well he certainly seemed broken up about in LoC with his whole, "Who betrays me shall die the final death. Asmodean, twisted by his weakness." And Shadar suggests that it was incompetence that got Asmodean killed, but it was clearly her being in Caemlyn to kill him. Unless she didn't expect to be found by him. This whole answer sucks cause we don't really know enough. Plus we're told in other places how the Dark One likes to have his Forsaken fight each other for dominance. He wants to see the weak ones fall, so why care so much that Graendal had a few killed? I think the answer just left us with more questions.

[Majsju]

 

 

By the way, you guys have been on these boards a LOT longer than I have. Was there anyone silly enough to not figure out that losing half the light of the world referred to Mat's eye? I like that it was made about as uncomfortable to read as possible. Losing an eye should not be comfortable. Not to be masochistic or anything, just saying it fit the mood.

 

If you look around at some of the older threads, you might be shocked at some of the ideas that people came up with what it could mean instead of losing an eye.

It is pretty much a rule here, no matter how obvious something is, some people will always argue strongly in favour of a completely different interpretation.

[Monte]

 

 

By the way, you guys have been on these boards a LOT longer than I have. Was there anyone silly enough to not figure out that losing half the light of the world referred to Mat's eye? I like that it was made about as uncomfortable to read as possible. Losing an eye should not be comfortable. Not to be masochistic or anything, just saying it fit the mood.

 

If you look around at some of the older threads, you might be shocked at some of the ideas that people came up with what it could mean instead of losing an eye.

It is pretty much a rule here, no matter how obvious something is, some people will always argue strongly in favour of a completely different interpretation.

 

Yeah that one was entirely obvious, for sure. There's too many threads for me to find those threads though! And thanks for pointing out hints about it before the glossary reveal, guys. That's why I asked, so that you guys would actually find it and make me feel better about it. No, seriously, that IS why I pointed it out.

[Mulk]

 

 

By the way, you guys have been on these boards a LOT longer than I have. Was there anyone silly enough to not figure out that losing half the light of the world referred to Mat's eye? I like that it was made about as uncomfortable to read as possible. Losing an eye should not be comfortable. Not to be masochistic or anything, just saying it fit the mood.

 

If you look around at some of the older threads, you might be shocked at some of the ideas that people came up with what it could mean instead of losing an eye.

It is pretty much a rule here, no matter how obvious something is, some people will always argue strongly in favour of a completely different interpretation.

 

Amen. Witness the number of people still claiming (not necessarily here though it has happened some) that Demandred and Taim are the same person, in spite of RJ's specific declaration that they were not. Or that Sammael is still alive with a similar line from RJ...road kill or something wasn't it?

 

Of course, that is part of the charm of this particular work. Some of the fulfillments have gotten pretty creative imo or made no sense without knowledge you didn't have at the start - like the whole bit about the People of the Dragon and the Stone not falling until they came to Tear.

[Dream]

...

Frankly, I find what Shaidar Haran says here to be inaccurate to what we knew back in TFoH and LoC. It seemed quite clear that the Dark One had ordered Asmodean's death since Asmodean had been a traitor. Plus, what incompetent act did Graendal cause that ended with Asmodean's death? It reads like she wasn't supposed to kill him, or she had someone else do it, which REALLY makes no sense.

RJ has stated that the Dark One did NOT order Asmodean's death. It seems his murder was a crime of opportunity.

 

Well he certainly seemed broken up about in LoC with his whole, "Who betrays me shall die the final death. Asmodean, twisted by his weakness." And Shadar suggests that it was incompetence that got Asmodean killed, but it was clearly her being in Caemlyn to kill him. Unless she didn't expect to be found by him. This whole answer sucks cause we don't really know enough. Plus we're told in other places how the Dark One likes to have his Forsaken fight each other for dominance. He wants to see the weak ones fall, so why care so much that Graendal had a few killed? I think the answer just left us with more questions.

 

Asmodean has been pretty useless. Aran'gar as well. No one really cares that they got killed. But Chosen are in limited supplies in this Age so even the Dark One hesistates to kill them now. Also, Mesaana's "death" was just her own bad luck. Really, I don't think Shadar Haran was trying to be reasonable at all. Just coming up with excuses to have a little fun. Graendal's real failure was not killing Perrin.

[Monte]

 

 

By the way, you guys have been on these boards a LOT longer than I have. Was there anyone silly enough to not figure out that losing half the light of the world referred to Mat's eye? I like that it was made about as uncomfortable to read as possible. Losing an eye should not be comfortable. Not to be masochistic or anything, just saying it fit the mood.

 

If you look around at some of the older threads, you might be shocked at some of the ideas that people came up with what it could mean instead of losing an eye.

It is pretty much a rule here, no matter how obvious something is, some people will always argue strongly in favour of a completely different interpretation.

 

Amen. Witness the number of people still claiming (not necessarily here though it has happened some) that Demandred and Taim are the same person, in spite of RJ's specific declaration that they were not. Or that Sammael is still alive with a similar line from RJ...road kill or something wasn't it?

 

Of course, that is part of the charm of this particular work. Some of the fulfillments have gotten pretty creative imo or made no sense without knowledge you didn't have at the start - like the whole bit about the People of the Dragon and the Stone not falling until they came to Tear.

 

Yeah the charm until Sanderson took over at least. I DID look back and try to find other threads about Mat, and you're right, some pretty creative stuff, but told off by a bunch of people saying it was more likely his eye. Some even predicted it was going to be while rescuing Moiraine, which is pretty impressive on their part...personally I had a vision of someone holding a dagger to Mat's eye while his mouth was only inches away from the horn of valere.

 

But I can imagine other things done in that blunt style as well. I can imagine in KoD, when Rand loses his hand to Semirhage.

 

"He's not in shock," Min said sadly. The bond was full of sadness. She had taken hold of his arm as if to hold him up again. "He lost a hand, but there's nothing to do about it, so he's left it behind already. Oh Rand! It's all clear to me now, this is the bloody hand I saw in viewings, it's you, Rand, this moment, exactly right now, this fulfills that viewing!"

 

Well...maybe not THAT blatant...but close...is how I'd describe how Sanderson handles SOME of the reveals. As for noone caring how Asmodean died, while searching for Mat topics in this forum's search. I came across maybe 5 Asmodean topics, and the keywords I used weren't even remotely about Asmodean. One of them was 184 pages long. I think you underestimate how many readers cared about some of the little hidden secrets that were still left to be solved, honestly, guys.

[akira.taylor]

Sanderson's reveals are so unlike Jordan's. Jordan was always subtle, always kept you guessing. Sanderson hits the reveals home like a hammer leaving no doubt as to what just happened. The characters in TGS and ToM seem to have developed a clairvoyance they never before came close to having. Chalk part of that up to character development, but I liked Jordan's subtlety. That said, someone PLEASE tell me that the reveal to Asmodean's killer wasn't in the glossary under Graendal? That...can't...be...right. Please point out the passage that I MUST have missed, making me either a poor reader or Sanderson more subtle than I thought.

 

Otherwise, I think I'm gonna throw up, after having just finished TGS and ToM for the first time.

 

Oh, it was in the Glossary ^_^. Harriet apparently likes people to read those. Now, it was also implied a couple of times in the book (an early scene with Graendal, and a late scene).

[chinnma]

...

Frankly, I find what Shaidar Haran says here to be inaccurate to what we knew back in TFoH and LoC. It seemed quite clear that the Dark One had ordered Asmodean's death since Asmodean had been a traitor. Plus, what incompetent act did Graendal cause that ended with Asmodean's death? It reads like she wasn't supposed to kill him, or she had someone else do it, which REALLY makes no sense.

RJ has stated that the Dark One did NOT order Asmodean's death. It seems his murder was a crime of opportunity.

 

Well he certainly seemed broken up about in LoC with his whole, "Who betrays me shall die the final death. Asmodean, twisted by his weakness." And Shadar suggests that it was incompetence that got Asmodean killed, but it was clearly her being in Caemlyn to kill him. Unless she didn't expect to be found by him. This whole answer sucks cause we don't really know enough. Plus we're told in other places how the Dark One likes to have his Forsaken fight each other for dominance. He wants to see the weak ones fall, so why care so much that Graendal had a few killed? I think the answer just left us with more questions.

 

While its true that the DO wants the weak to fail, he is not a fan of loosing his chosen (pun intended) tools. Asmodean had failed, but his proximity and influence to Rand could have still been usefull.

[mbuehner]

Wasn't Sanderson's idea, was Harriet's. There needs to be some sort of internet law which states that every passage sited pointing out why Sanderson is so much worse than Jordan will in fact be written by Jordan or otherwise not Sanderson's doing.

[Monte]

Wasn't Sanderson's idea, was Harriet's. There needs to be some sort of internet law which states that every passage sited pointing out why Sanderson is so much worse than Jordan will in fact be written by Jordan or otherwise not Sanderson's doing.

 

(shrugs) I'm over it. But just because it was harriet's idea doesn't mean it was Jordan's doing. But yeah I see your point after learning that Sanderson wrote all of or at least part of Aviendha's Rhuidean trip. That was extremely well written, and I had thought it to be Jordan, which I asked about in a previous thread I created. Sanderson wrote it, so I'm impressed! But it still doesn't change the fact that the reveals are too obviously done under Sanderson. There are highs and lows, right?

[hankscorpio]

The reveal of Asmodean's killer was pretty much how I expected it to be done - casually as part of conversation. I didn't really expect a "I'll kill you just like I killed that fool Asmodean" or anything like that, that would sound a little forced. I think the conversations with Moridin and SH were great ways to reveal it without having to force it into the dialogue.

[Monte]

The reveal of Asmodean's killer was pretty much how I expected it to be done - casually as part of conversation. I didn't really expect a "I'll kill you just like I killed that fool Asmodean" or anything like that, that would sound a little forced. I think the conversations with Moridin and SH were great ways to reveal it without having to force it into the dialogue.

 

I agree Hank, when I first posted this thread, keep in mind that I had missed it there :)

[threadnecromancer]

Sanderson's reveals are so unlike Jordan's. Jordan was always subtle, always kept you guessing. Sanderson hits the reveals home like a hammer leaving no doubt as to what just happened. The characters in TGS and ToM seem to have developed a clairvoyance they never before came close to having. Chalk part of that up to character development, but I liked Jordan's subtlety. That said, someone PLEASE tell me that the reveal to Asmodean's killer wasn't in the glossary under Graendal? That...can't...be...right. Please point out the passage that I MUST have missed, making me either a poor reader or Sanderson more subtle than I thought.

 

Otherwise, I think I'm gonna throw up, after having just finished TGS and ToM for the first time.

 

Oh, it was in the Glossary ^_^. Harriet apparently likes people to read those. Now, it was also implied a couple of times in the book (an early scene with Graendal, and a late scene).

 

But why would you read a glossary after reading a book?

[Monte]

But why would you read a glossary after reading a book?

 

Because it was at the end, and I bought it on e-reader, if you want the honest answer..

[yoniy0]

A few things:

(a) The actual reveal was indeed in the book. First with Moridin ('this is getting to be a habit of yours') and then at the end with Shaidar Haran ('three Chosen'). The way it was entered into both conversations was actually quite subtle, I think, never touching on his name as it did, especially when you consider that the blunter of the two came second, and only at the end of the book. I personally regret that it was ever put into the glossary, since it made people think that it was revealed that way (not to mention those who didn't catch the warning posted on several sites not to read the glossary before you find out who did it for yourself).

(b) It was also included in the books that the DO didn't order Asmodean's death. For one, Moridin tells Graendal in TGS that the DO approves of her initiative (sawing chaos in Arad Doman wasn't an initiative, she was ordered to do that). For another, we have no reason to believe killing him was the reason that she was there. She couldn't have known that he'd be in that pantry right then, and she had other reasons to be in Caemlyn that day (namely, spying on how Rand's confrontation with Rahvin turned out, and plundering Rahvin's lefties, as she did with Sammael later).

© Shaidar Haran's anger at her was completely foreshadowed and should have come as no surprise to anyone. Moridin flat out told her at the beginning of the book that this was to be her last chance. I was personally surprised that he didn't just kill her.

[akira.taylor]

But why would you read a glossary after reading a book?

 

Because I was warned that there were spoilers in the glossary? That, and it is at the end. They do sometimes have spoilers you know. I have seen glossaries with spoilers before.

[threadnecromancer]

But why would you read a glossary after reading a book?

 

Because I was warned that there were spoilers in the glossary? That, and it is at the end. They do sometimes have spoilers you know. I have seen glossaries with spoilers before.

 

I was just expressing my frustration on the topic because I had not been lucky enough to hear the warning that there were spoilers, and had even looked at the glossary of tGS to make sure that there were no spoilers in the glossary before deciding to read the ToM glossary first. I am still a little annoyed with the way the Asmodean mystery (and for that matter, the deaths of Aran Gar and Messaana) were presented in the glossary. Although none of the other articles in the glossary had any spoilers.

[Nooska]

And just to nitpick;

The reveals, the 2 in the book as well as the glossary do not reveal Asmodean's killer - just that G was responsible for it. She did not kill Aran'gar and she did not kill Mesaana, so the company very much indicates that she did not kill Asmodean, but was a direct or indirect cause of his demise (i.e. he would not have died (at that time) if not for her direct action or inaction - Causality and culpability - rather than her direct act.

[FarShainMael]

And just to nitpick;

The reveals, the 2 in the book as well as the glossary do not reveal Asmodean's killer - just that G was responsible for it. She did not kill Aran'gar and she did not kill Mesaana, so the company very much indicates that she did not kill Asmodean, but was a direct or indirect cause of his demise (i.e. he would not have died (at that time) if not for her direct action or inaction - Causality and culpability - rather than her direct act.

 

This.^^^

 

BTW and slightly OT - earlier someone was saying that Mat losing an eye fits the mood, indeed it does.. and Birgitte will love it; after she reads That Letter she says that Mat has a fine behind but his face is too pretty. Not now it isn't..