Why doesn't Egwene lean on those she can trust from the TR?

[randsc]

Other characters are seen relying on people they knew of old, that they know they can trust. Perrin, in particular. And now it seems that the Two Rivers men at the Black Tower will turn out to be key players for the Light in that particular little squabble.

 

Much has been made of how Egwene doesn't have many people she can trust in the White Tower. But doesn't she have a full contingent of novices from the Two Rivers? Including at least some who are personally known to her? I can see her keeping them at arms length while Elaida was in power, for their own protection. But now, why not look for support from those she has known all her life?

 

Related question: I understand that the Two Rivers is supposed to be a semi-forgotten backwater. But it isn't really all that remote or isolated, even producing a wrold-famous tabac crop. The Old Blood is supposed to be especially strong there, and when both WT and BT recruiters finally showed up, they found many with the ability to channel.

 

So why weren't there any Aes Sedai from the Two Rivers? Its not like the need to provide Wisdoms for three or four villages could be absorbing all of those channelers.

[David Selig]

They are still novices, so they can't do much to support her. And Egwene is really determined not to be seen as showing favour to anyone (at least since she raised her best friends to the shawl on her first day on the new job), so she'll probably keep them as novices for a long time.

[Shard]

They are still novices, so they can't do much to support her. And Egwene is really determined not to be seen as showing favour to anyone (at least since she raised her best friends to the shawl on her first day on the new job), so she'll probably keep them as novices for a long time.

 

Not to mention she never seems to miss any of them. I don't know that she really can trust any of them like she can Nynaeve, Elayne and Suian.

[sleepinghour]

Much has been made of how Egwene doesn't have many people she can trust in the White Tower. But doesn't she have a full contingent of novices from the Two Rivers? Including at least some who are personally known to her? I can see her keeping them at arms length while Elaida was in power, for their own protection. But now, why not look for support from those she has known all her life?

I think Egwene will probably include Bode in her circle of trusted people once Bode is raised to Aes Sedai, but no more novices and Accepted after what happened to Nicola.

 

The Two Rivers girls are only in their mid-teens and would crack pretty fast if Lelaine or Romanda got suspicious and decided to interrogate them. Even Faolain did when Lelaine discovered she was Egwene's spy.

[randsc]

Much has been made of how Egwene doesn't have many people she can trust in the White Tower. But doesn't she have a full contingent of novices from the Two Rivers? Including at least some who are personally known to her? I can see her keeping them at arms length while Elaida was in power, for their own protection. But now, why not look for support from those she has known all her life?

I think Egwene will probably include Bode in her circle of trusted people once Bode is raised to Aes Sedai, but no more novices and Accepted after what happened to Nicola.

 

The Two Rivers girls are only in their mid-teens and would crack pretty fast if Lelaine or Romanda got suspicious and decided to interrogate them. Even Faolain did when Lelaine discovered she was Egwene's spy.

 

I dunno, our other Two Rivers teenagers don't seem to crack. That teenage archer in the Black Tower (don't have the book handy) is ready to rebel against Taim, with very little support.

 

But I guess being gun shy of using novices after basically being responsible for Nicola's death is a pretty good reason.

[randsc]

They are still novices, so they can't do much to support her. And Egwene is really determined not to be seen as showing favour to anyone (at least since she raised her best friends to the shawl on her first day on the new job), so she'll probably keep them as novices for a long time.

 

Does the Amyrlin actually have a direct role in determining when a novice or accepted is ready to test?

[capuga]

There is also a difference in personalities between Egwene and Perrin.

 

From the beginning, we see that Egwene is the one most excited the leave the TR and find adventure. She is also the one that is the most ambitious and actively seeks power, doing what it takes to gain that power, including cutting off ties to her past home. I do not raise these points to derail this thread into more Egwene bashing (although I usually participate in that) but just to point out possible explanations to the original thread question. She just doesn't seem to miss her home as much as the others (particularly Perrin) and is less willing to indulge in reminiscing if it threatens her political position. And, as others have pointed out, the younger TR girls are not much of a resource to Egwene at this point in time anyways. She does lean on the TR woman (Nynaeve) that she can trust and is currently capable of being a help.

 

It makes sense that Perrin would lean on the TR men more because that fits with his personality. He is the character that appears to miss and hold onto the past the most. His personality also leads to him being the one that would most easily slip back into those past friendships despite his new elevated position and experiences. It took him the longest to realize he was no longer just a country bumpkin that had larger responsibilities.

[Erunion]

Teenagers being willing to rebel should be no surprise at all. Teenagers holding up under pressure from someone in authority, and not letting little hints slip by accident? Much less likely.

[AvroChris]

They are still novices, so they can't do much to support her. And Egwene is really determined not to be seen as showing favour to anyone (at least since she raised her best friends to the shawl on her first day on the new job), so she'll probably keep them as novices for a long time.

 

Does the Amyrlin actually have a direct role in determining when a novice or accepted is ready to test?

 

She had a role in raising the Wondergirls but I got the impression that her direct involvement was quite atypical, certainly for being raised Accepted...

[randsc]

There is also a difference in personalities between Egwene and Perrin.

 

From the beginning, we see that Egwene is the one most excited the leave the TR and find adventure. She is also the one that is the most ambitious and actively seeks power, doing what it takes to gain that power, including cutting off ties to her past home. I do not raise these points to derail this thread into more Egwene bashing (although I usually participate in that) but just to point out possible explanations to the original thread question. She just doesn't seem to miss her home as much as the others (particularly Perrin) and is less willing to indulge in reminiscing if it threatens her political position. And, as others have pointed out, the younger TR girls are not much of a resource to Egwene at this point in time anyways. She does lean on the TR woman (Nynaeve) that she can trust and is currently capable of being a help.

 

It makes sense that Perrin would lean on the TR men more because that fits with his personality. He is the character that appears to miss and hold onto the past the most. His personality also leads to him being the one that would most easily slip back into those past friendships despite his new elevated position and experiences. It took him the longest to realize he was no longer just a country bumpkin that had larger responsibilities.

 

 

True enough.

 

Perrin is also somehow able to maintain his authority in spite of people who have known him for years occassionally calling him, "Perrin."

[randsc]

They are still novices, so they can't do much to support her. And Egwene is really determined not to be seen as showing favour to anyone (at least since she raised her best friends to the shawl on her first day on the new job), so she'll probably keep them as novices for a long time.

 

Does the Amyrlin actually have a direct role in determining when a novice or accepted is ready to test?

 

She had a role in raising the Wondergirls but I got the impression that her direct involvement was quite atypical, certainly for being raised Accepted...

 

That was my immpression as well. But I don't have the books here, and can't hunt about for a reference from the text.

 

If she interferes with the standard process, keeping worthy candidates in subservient positions just to strengthen her political position, I'll hate her even more than I already do.

[Zentari]

Perrin is also somehow able to maintain his authority in spite of people who have known him for years occassionally calling him, "Perrin."

Perrin isn't a leader of a nest of vipers , if you understand what I'm getting at.

Different situations call for different measures.

[blazetheearth]

"She's left Edmond's Field further behind than either of us. And regrets it less."

 

Mat to Rand about Egwene, TFoH - Ch 42 - Before the Arrow

 

Her ego will not let her look for help. Especially from any of those who saw her grow up. Look at her response when Nynaeve suggests the possibility of getting help from Rand to deal with Messaana. She was much quicker to accept the WO's help instead of the man she grew up believing she would marry. The only way that she accepts Nynaeve back with her is after browbeating her into agreeing to treat Eggy as Amrylin even in private, and does this after she had browbeaten both Nyn and Elayne into treating her as 'just Egwene' in private.

 

She seems to view everyone else from the TR as people to be 'handled' not people to trust.

 

I understand (and even agree) with her stated reasons for not attempting to get closer to the TR Novices, but just like I would any other AS, I doubt that her 'stated' reason is the real or whole reason.

[Mats Spare Hat]

Given what we know about how people can change in the span of 2 Randland years, I'd think it'd be kind of hard for Egwene to just accept somebody outright into her circle of trust. She doesn't know what they've been up to, who they've met with/talked to/may have sworn to/ or otherwise. Her posse now, bryne, siuan, elayne & nynaeve, birgitte even, the wise ones - they've all been there next to her through all these world changing events, hardships and episodes.

 

I would think she'd more readily trust those folks because they've been with her through all the crazy intense things that have happened to her. Whereas if you take Janey-Sue Two Rivers who you haven't seen, let alone really known in at least 2 years...

 

Things change. I don't think it's out of whack at all that Egwene, or anyone else for that matter, wouldn't look to people from the TR, or wherever folks are from in real life, as people they could inherently trust at the drop of a hat - having neither seen, nor talked to those people in 2 years or more.

[akira.taylor]

They are still novices, so they can't do much to support her. And Egwene is really determined not to be seen as showing favour to anyone (at least since she raised her best friends to the shawl on her first day on the new job), so she'll probably keep them as novices for a long time.

 

Does the Amyrlin actually have a direct role in determining when a novice or accepted is ready to test?

 

She had a role in raising the Wondergirls but I got the impression that her direct involvement was quite atypical, certainly for being raised Accepted...

 

I think that, by tradition if not law (so, much stronger), the Mistress of Novices is the sole arbiter of when a Novice or Accepted is ready to test. Now, The Amyrlin chooses the Mistress of Novices, and can probably influence her, but that's it. I would expect Egwene to simply keep clear of involvement with the Two Rivers Novices and Accepted, and not be particularly subtle about it (not, ideally, blatant, but more . . . "of course I don't interfere, that is the Mistress of Novices job, and she can do it much better than I can, since she can devote her full attention to it" if asked).

[Mr Ares]

Related question: I understand that the Two Rivers is supposed to be a semi-forgotten backwater. But it isn't really all that remote or isolated, even producing a wrold-famous tabac crop. The Old Blood is supposed to be especially strong there, and when both WT and BT recruiters finally showed up, they found many with the ability to channel.

 

So why weren't there any Aes Sedai from the Two Rivers? Its not like the need to provide Wisdoms for three or four villages could be absorbing all of those channelers.

Most of the channelers would be learners rather than sparkers, so that would get rid of a lot. Also, three out of four sparkers die if they learn unaided. Also, few people ever leave TR (they just wait for people to come to them), and AS don't recruit usually, they prefer people to come to the Tower. Of course, we might also wonder why the TR hasn't been plagued with male channelers in its past?

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Because Egwene is slowly falling into the trap of many rulers, particularly young inexperienced ones, gifted with absolute power. She is slowly exhibiting more and more facets of megalomania, including extreme paranoia and the steadfast belief never to be capable of committing an error. If she is incapable of staving off the downward spiral she is dooming herself to it might yet sow the seeds to her downfall later in her career.

[Elan Tedronai]

Other characters are seen relying on people they knew of old, that they know they can trust. Perrin, in particular. And now it seems that the Two Rivers men at the Black Tower will turn out to be key players for the Light in that particular little squabble.

 

Much has been made of how Egwene doesn't have many people she can trust in the White Tower. But doesn't she have a full contingent of novices from the Two Rivers? Including at least some who are personally known to her? I can see her keeping them at arms length while Elaida was in power, for their own protection. But now, why not look for support from those she has known all her life?

 

Related question: I understand that the Two Rivers is supposed to be a semi-forgotten backwater. But it isn't really all that remote or isolated, even producing a wrold-famous tabac crop. The Old Blood is supposed to be especially strong there, and when both WT and BT recruiters finally showed up, they found many with the ability to channel.

 

So why weren't there any Aes Sedai from the Two Rivers? Its not like the need to provide Wisdoms for three or four villages could be absorbing all of those channelers.

 

But I guess being gun shy of using novices after basically being responsible for Nicola's death is a pretty good reason.

 

 

That was my immpression as well. But I don't have the books here, and can't hunt about for a reference from the text.

 

If she interferes with the standard process, keeping worthy candidates in subservient positions just to strengthen her political position, I'll hate her even more than I already do.

 

 

 

[randsc]

Yeah, Elan, I'm the one who's obsessed.

 

I assume you're making good use of the Egwene fan art posted on the homepage?

[Mr Ares]

Well, if nothing else you seem pretty obsessed with the idea that people could only support Egwene for one reason.

[randsc]

Well, if nothing else you seem pretty obsessed with the idea that people could only support Egwene for one reason.

 

No, "people" have a wide range of reasons for liking Egwene, just as other "people" have a wide range of reasons for disliking Egwene.

 

[Removed. Confrontational]

[Luckers]

End the personal back and forth. Now.

[Nygma7]

Egwene can't rely on those girls she knew from home, other than Nynaeve. First, they're just too insignificant, really. They're all just novices and accepted without any particularly useful abilities. Friendship's all well and good, but they just haven't gone through what Egwene, Nynaeve, and the ta'veren have gone through since leaving their home to really have an idea of what's going on that will help Egwene at all.

 

Second, and most importantly, as Amyrlin Egwene can't fraternize with people who think of her as just the innkeeper's daughter. We see in one of the books how she has to have some of them disciplined for being too familiar with her. She has to maintain her authority, and can't do that by being buddies with the... children, really... from the Two Rivers.

[Hopefire]

Honestly, her friends from the Two Rivers are two very long years behind at this point. Egwene, Nynaeve and Rand have all fought and defeated members of the Forsaken; Mat and Perrin have been battling nasties that are almost as bad. All five of the Two Rivers crew now have significant political responsibilities; even Nynaeve has the political clout to call up an army. Egwene has probably seen the least amount of combat, and she's held off a major Seanchan raid, taken down a Forsaken, helped Rand significantly during the Aiel invasion, not to mention her experience being leashed and how that hurried along her growth in strength in the One Power and how it increased her knowledge of the One Power.

 

Egwene getting help from the Two Rivers initiates is like General Eisenhower getting help from a bunch of 18 year old recruits that haven't finished training camp. They can help all right - when their turn for the front lines comes. Even Perrin, who's stayed closer to the people of the Two Rivers than anyone else, doesn't seem to have the Coplins and Congers at his conference tables.

 

There is no practical help that the Two Rivers girls can provide Egwene. As for friendship, that's potentially a different story. She can maintain her authority and still be friendly with the girls - that's something that might come in handy years down the road. From a long term practical perspective, if the girls feel that she's snubbing them now, when they're Aes Sedai twenty years later they may still carry a bit of a grudge. From a more short term emotional health perspective, Egwene might be making mistakes similar to those that Rand made when Rand cut himself off from the offered friendship of those around him.

 

So, it might be to Egwene's benefit to renew friendships, provided that the girls understand Egwene's position. But practical help? Meh.

[Mandro]

Egwene can't rely on those girls she knew from home, other than Nynaeve. First, they're just too insignificant, really. They're all just novices and accepted without any particularly useful abilities. Friendship's all well and good, but they just haven't gone through what Egwene, Nynaeve, and the ta'veren have gone through since leaving their home to really have an idea of what's going on that will help Egwene at all.

 

Second, and most importantly, as Amyrlin Egwene can't fraternize with people who think of her as just the innkeeper's daughter. We see in one of the books how she has to have some of them disciplined for being too familiar with her. She has to maintain her authority, and can't do that by being buddies with the... children, really... from the Two Rivers.

 

Bode isn't insignificant, she isn't powerful and hasn't developed her strength just yet, but Bode's abilities are in line with Egwenes. Strength in earth and so on. As for "Amyrlin Eqwene," Egwene has always been a pompous little girl. I hope that somewhere in AMOL when she meets rand and she tells him to call her mother, he tells her his entire list of titles. Egwene really likes her title. One of the big rehabilitations of Nynaeve in ToM is here indifference to the tower. Nynaeve TRULY wishes to serve, and will do so, with, or without a title. That was a truly noble stance. I have yet to see that from egwene, people will use the "I have toh" moment, or her arguing against a sociopath to become Amyrlin, but realy the only thing that holds eqwene together is her arrogance. The ONE human moment was not wanting to get married without contacting her parents. Oh, great, egwene can't get married without telling mom and dad, but she can crap on every single person in her life. Good for her.

 

I Hope she dies in the last battle.