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Where is Demandred's Army coming from?


Lord D
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  1. 1. Where is Demandred's Army coming from?

  2. 2. If you selected "Other" above, where do you think Dem's army is?

    • The Black Tower
    • Murandy
    • Seanchan
    • Some combination of all the above
    • Still other


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I voted Murandy. I think it likely that Demandred is involved in the Black Tower, and I also think it likely he's got still more things going on, but I don't think that's what he was referring to when he said his armies were gathered and ready for war.

Where have we heard any evidence that anything funny is going on in Murandy? Surely there should be some evidence by now if something's going on there.

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I voted Murandy. I think it likely that Demandred is involved in the Black Tower, and I also think it likely he's got still more things going on, but I don't think that's what he was referring to when he said his armies were gathered and ready for war.

Where have we heard any evidence that anything funny is going on in Murandy? Surely there should be some evidence by now if something's going on there.

King Rhoedran suddenly becoming ambitious counts as funny. I know he has been described as kind of a lazy ruler who doesnt want to expand his rule early in the books.

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King Rhoedran suddenly becoming ambitious counts as funny. I know he has been described as kind of a lazy ruler who doesnt want to expand his rule early in the books.

The problem with that is RJ insisted we have not yet seen Demandred's alter-ego on screen. Roedran is a minor character but he has still made appearances, even though they are mostly indirect ones.

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King Rhoedran suddenly becoming ambitious counts as funny. I know he has been described as kind of a lazy ruler who doesnt want to expand his rule early in the books.

The problem with that is RJ insisted we have not yet seen Demandred's alter-ego on screen. Roedran is a minor character but he has still made appearances, even though they are mostly indirect ones.

It's really stretching the meanings of "appear" and "seen" to apply them to characters we haven't seen, but have only heard at best second-hand stories of from Talmanes, and most of the rest just rumors.

 

One of the best arguments I see for Rhoedran is that there just aren't many characters we hear about but never meet. RJ introduces us to an awful lot of characters! Rhoedran being mentioned but never shown is suspicious in itself.

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Personally, I like the idea that these are male aiel channelers. They go into the Blight when hey realise what they're capable of, and he could have built up quite a collection of aiel that way. That said, they could just as easily be from some offshoot world beyond the portal stones, or from Shara/The Land of Madmen.

 

However, I think I remember Demandred once saying in front of Graendal something about being secure on his thrown, with armies ready to move. Assuming that he hasn't set up near the other chosen that really leaves Murandy, which Siuan herself stated could become a serious power if united. Considering that Murandy has now been united, and that it was one of the few nations missing from the meeting at the fields of Merrilor, that could well be it.

 

Assuming that Demandred now has power in Murandy would challenge the assumption that the red veiled aiel were his army, meaning that Moridin most likely controls them.

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My thoughts go to that DO asked Demandred if he was ready to release Balefire for him when Demandred went to SG earlier in the series.

Then we don't hear from Demandred for a long time then he suddenly have armies noone have heard of.

I can't come up with any good theories about what he could have Balefired or when(how strong the Balefire was) that would result in him "securing his rule" and get armies to command but I don't see it as unlikely that he have Balefired something that would mean something that has happened in the earlier books never happened.

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I voted Murandy. I think it likely that Demandred is involved in the Black Tower, and I also think it likely he's got still more things going on, but I don't think that's what he was referring to when he said his armies were gathered and ready for war.

Where have we heard any evidence that anything funny is going on in Murandy? Surely there should be some evidence by now if something's going on there.

King Rhoedran suddenly becoming ambitious counts as funny. I know he has been described as kind of a lazy ruler who doesnt want to expand his rule early in the books.

This is drawing a very looong bow. I can't see Dem hiding away, and Rahvin and Sammael made themselves well known early on. Roedran may be being manipulated by Dem, but he's not Dem.

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Personally, I like the idea that these are male aiel channelers. They go into the Blight when hey realise what they're capable of, and he could have built up quite a collection of aiel that way. That said, they could just as easily be from some offshoot world beyond the portal stones, or from Shara/The Land of Madmen.

 

However, I think I remember Demandred once saying in front of Graendal something about being secure on his thrown, with armies ready to move. Assuming that he hasn't set up near the other chosen that really leaves Murandy, which Siuan herself stated could become a serious power if united. Considering that Murandy has now been united, and that it was one of the few nations missing from the meeting at the fields of Merrilor, that could well be it.

 

Assuming that Demandred now has power in Murandy would challenge the assumption that the red veiled aiel were his army, meaning that Moridin most likely controls them.

Where have we heard that Murandy has been united? If it's still divided, there would be reason for not showing up. Would Murandians generally want to fight on the side of the Shadow? If not, Dem would have to use Shadowspawn brought through the Ways, and those Shadowspawn would certainly be noticed fairly quickly.

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Personally, I like the idea that these are male aiel channelers. They go into the Blight when hey realise what they're capable of, and he could have built up quite a collection of aiel that way. That said, they could just as easily be from some offshoot world beyond the portal stones, or from Shara/The Land of Madmen.

 

However, I think I remember Demandred once saying in front of Graendal something about being secure on his thrown, with armies ready to move. Assuming that he hasn't set up near the other chosen that really leaves Murandy, which Siuan herself stated could become a serious power if united. Considering that Murandy has now been united, and that it was one of the few nations missing from the meeting at the fields of Merrilor, that could well be it.

 

Assuming that Demandred now has power in Murandy would challenge the assumption that the red veiled aiel were his army, meaning that Moridin most likely controls them.

Where have we heard that Murandy has been united? If it's still divided, there would be reason for not showing up. Would Murandians generally want to fight on the side of the Shadow? If not, Dem would have to use Shadowspawn brought through the Ways, and those Shadowspawn would certainly be noticed fairly quickly.

we know that Rhoedran bound all the murandian nobles to him using the Band, it is even referenced by Elayne during her and mats negotiations

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  • 4 months later...

Shara has to have something to do with the Last Battle, they can't just sit there twiddling thumbs while the rest of the world falls apart.

 

There is a civil war in Shara, which was engineered by the Shadow. I think that's the point of that civil war, as it keeps a continent that would probably support the Light out of the action. The Shadow would do better at recruitment in the Land of Madmen than in Shara.

 

 

Yes, but you do remember how the leaders in the Shara are chosen? Since the chanelers in the Shara control the country under a pupet, would it be most likely that Demandred would take over the chanelers and then use them to control the country?

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There are some good arguments over where Demandred could be. Including Murandy, Shara, The Blight, and other places. Personaly, I go with Shara, though I also favor some other opinions.

 

There is a reason why I favor Shara. Its large mass, scarcely known society, and importace in trade, make it a good foothold. So the way the people of Shara choose their leader is that ever 7 years a new leader is chosen by the female chanelers. The chanalers secetly control the rulers that suposedly rule the land. Also they have a high social status. So the chances that Demandred somehow managed to secure the allegience of these chanelers, would gain access to the country. Shara is akey place as it is mentioned several times in the series with some importance. It is also mentioned as one of the best places to trade with since it has acess to many exotic goods, thus meaning stratigec importance.

 

However, the importance of the other opinions is to be noted. Expecialy the one on Murand. Murandy is constantly shown as a nation that isnt united and can poses little threat to the outside. Still, some of the new hapenings there shed some plausibility that Demendred could be there. First is the sudden change in king Rhoedran look at being king. In the begening of the series, he is described as lazy and not muh care for power. So this new and recent change is not coincidental. Rhoedran has secured Murandy, through the Band of the Red Hand. So Murandy is no longer a minor nation. Murandy's importance is larger then it seams. at one point Suian comented that if Murandy is united, they can prove to be extremly potent. also, Murandy has proven itself in the past as well to do fighters. One being the border raids with Andor, where they clearly demonstrated to be very potent. Also, Elaida comes from a family of minor nobels in Murandy, so if her attitude as well as ruthlessness is because of uppbringing, then it might as well make the people of Murandy put in a different perspective.

 

The Blight is an option. During the Gathering Storm, Moridin is shown to have a fortress in the blasted lands, with people trying to strive there. So, if there is a culture sympathetic to the Dark One in the Blasted Lands, then it is posible that Demandred could be in charge. Also one of Demandred's few aperences shows him visiting the Dark One at the mountain, where the Dark One shows him something. So this posible culture might actually exist.

 

The Land of Madman is not mentioned in the series, but is a plausible location. The people there are primitive and would side more or less to strength. So, the people there could easily be swayed by Demendred, since he would look as a God to them. however, it is not likely, since they are primitive, and have no military capabilities.

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I could have sworn I posted to this topic already, but the two main clues:

 

1. Demandred, Sermi, and another forsaken are often allied.

2. Sammael said "events in the south" looked like Demandred's work.

 

Sermi was unmasked as Lady Suroth's truthspeaker in KoD, and since Sammael himself was in Illian, the only other "events in the south" is the Seanchan invasion.

 

The Seanchan invasion also jives with Demandred's "Have I done well?" scene too.

Edited by Toy'varen
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The Land of Madman is not mentioned in the series, but is a plausible location. The people there are primitive and would side more or less to strength. So, the people there could easily be swayed by Demendred, since he would look as a God to them. however, it is not likely, since they are primitive, and have no military capabilities.

 

I think the best option is Shara and the 2nd best option would be Murandy.

 

The people living in the land of the Madmen probably won't follow a male channeler, since they know what kind of danger such a man could become. There are still male channelers there and most are mad thanks to the taint. Besides, the total population on a continent that's still breaking is probably pretty low. There are numerous volcanoes and there's also the constant threat of earthquakes. The cultural level these people have managed to achieve is probably very low as well. Combine these two factors and'the conclusion would be that these people won't be much of a threat to the forces of Seanchan and Randland (including the Aiel).

 

Mirror worlds are not likely IMHO, but still a possibility. The people living in the inhabited mirror worlds are probably fighting against the DO just like most people in our world and I really doubt that Demandred has been able to find an army in the most unlikely of mirror worlds, which aren't inhabited at all.

 

Seanchan was Semirhage's playground and it's currently too chaotic. Armies are probably killing eachother atm and I really doubt that they'll be much of a force to be reckoned with (mostly because I also believe that most of the Seanchan army is currently in Randland).

 

The Blight is a possibility, but I, like other people in this thread, doubt that Demandred will be leading a Trollock army. Sure, there are humans and maybe even an entire human culture in the blight, but I don't think the blight will be able to sustain a large human population and I also think most humans wouldn't like living so close to the Trollocks and other shadowspawn who usually see humans as a foodsource.

 

I always believed to black tower was controlled by Moridin (through Taim), not Demandred. I don't have much proof for this, besides the fact that Taim seems to want and do whatever Moridin wants.

 

Shara might not be very stable at the moment, but even if the Sharans are fighting amongst eachother, they still have most of their armies and even though we know little about them, they did manage to defeat the Hawkwing army that was sent to conquer them a thousand years ago. I believe they're a formidable force, even though that's based on events that took place long ago and on a vision of Aviendha (that might not come true), in which the Raven empire and Shara work together (I doubt they'd be working together if the Sharans were pushovers).

 

Murandy is slightly less likely. Murandy might have become more stable, but compared to the armies the Seanchan and Rand have, their force is probably very weak. Still, they could pose as allies and attack the forces of the light when they don't expect it, but would this be Demandred's style? To me this sounds more like Sammael's style.

Edited by Gordar
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Honestly, I'll be slightly disappointed to find out it's "just Murandy", since he has been so shrouded in mystery that I'd love for some more awesome army building than just another nation. He damn well better be up to something terrible after all this time in hiding, which really doesn't seem to fit his personality. He seems to like attention as he always wants to be the best at what he does, so he must be up to something terrible.

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Honestly, I'll be slightly disappointed to find out it's "just Murandy", since he has been so shrouded in mystery that I'd love for some more awesome army building than just another nation. He damn well better be up to something terrible after all this time in hiding, which really doesn't seem to fit his personality. He seems to like attention as he always wants to be the best at what he does, so he must be up to something terrible.

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I highly doubt the red veiled Aiel have anything to do with Demandred being that there is nothing whatsoever to indicate they might be. I would guess they belong to Moridin and come from his secret hideaway in the Blight. When Graendal is summoned there she notices farmland full of blight resistant crops and wonders what and where exactly the location might be. What need for crops unless there are people of some sort to feed? I believe the "OMGWTF surprise thing in the Blight" is a society of channellers and warriors descended from turned Aiel men sent to die, interspersed with Borderlanders that were darkfriends or kidnapped during raids and assimilated. Who else would be better candidates to survive such a harsh place as the far reaches of the Blight where even some darkspawn are uncontrollable by anyone?

 

The Aiel similarities are too close to not be an intentional association with the clothing and choice of weapons worn and used by nobody else in the series but the Aiel, the unveiling prior to killing contradicting Aiel custom, a character mistaking them for Aiel. People are caught up on the eye color thing but obviously a bunch of male Aiel could not produce offspring and women from elsewhere would have to be brought in for breeding, explaining the divergence since many Borderlanders are described as being darkly colored. The idea that RJ chose to have a group show up on the eve of the Last Battle looking like demented Aiel only to have them be totally unrelated would be asinine, especially in a story that is full of synchronicities and constantly intertwining threads.

 

Another argument people use against it is the RVA using a knife to kill (or the fact they carry spears) therefore they can't be channellers. For one thing in a society they would not have a 100% rate of people born with the ability to do so, many are going to be normal men and women. We also see other channellers in the story carry melee weapons such as Asha'man, many AoL Aes Sedai are shown to be skilled swordsmen, the 3rd Age AS keep Warders to help protect them. It is shown numerous times in the story that situations such as exhaustion or other circumstances that impact the ability to use the OP can make having a melee weapon very advantageous.

 

Using a blade to kill also does not preclude the ability to channel, especially from characters that are pointedly described as cruel, menacing and evil. If someone takes pleasure in killing doing it with a blade is much more personal and visceral than smoking them with the OP. It is akin to the difference of shooting someone with a gun which is more detached and easy to separate yourself from the action, or killing them with a blade which requires more of a stomach and intimate involvement in the process. It is not hard to imagine someone so gleeful about the prospect of slaughtering a man preferring to use a knife.

 

There is also no reason to believe that the Aiel should have any knowledge of there being such a place or that the RVA would be chomping at the bit to attack them. Where ever Moridin's stronghold is located at exactly it is deep in the Blight, far deeper than anyone ever ventures as even the Forsaken have no idea of it's location or even existence in most of their cases. They are not across the street from each other, they are separated by the harshest and most dangerous terrain that exists in the world hands down in the Blight. What motivation would the RVA society have to cross that distance and it's natural threats only to attack a force that highly outnumbers them? They are busy eking out an existence in the blight and fighting off things like worms and God knows what else might dwell there.

 

Another strong reason for them to be a bastardized version of Aiel is from a storytelling perspective. The Aiel are the most iconic culture in WoT and the most closely tied to the Dragon Reborn. They are the People of the Dragon, both in purpose and in blood relation to Rand, the one group that he has always known he can count on no matter what. Moridin is the Yang to Rand's Yin and his counterpart on the side of the Shadow. Considering his eternal relationship of opposition and personal hatred of LTT/Rand it makes sense for him to have his own version of "Aiel" that he has corrupted over the centuries and made his own. Given Moridin's knowledge and collections of prophecy (I personally believe is the Dreamer among the Forsaken that Brandon spoke of and probably produced much of said prophecies himself), along with his own experience and personal knowledge of the Aiel's collective history I find it unlikely the connection between Rand and the Aiel was lost upon him.

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Besides we all know Demandred is outside Caemlyn at the moment. Dividing his time between Snakes and Foxes, putting his mack down on hotties and looking after Mat. There is no way that leaves him enough time for places like the LoMM, Seandar or Shara.

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Bela plays snakes and foxes?

 

Different line of speculation: what if D's "army" is one of the good guys? I was wandering around WoT Encyclopedia, and in one of Min's viewings, she said there's "something dark" about Bashere. We also know that both the Band of the Hand and Perrin's army were in the South marching north, and there was a huge coalition near Tear as a distraction to make Sammael think Rand was going to invade Illian.

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Bela plays snakes and foxes?

 

Different line of speculation: what if D's "army" is one of the good guys? I was wandering around WoT Encyclopedia, and in one of Min's viewings, she said there's "something dark" about Bashere. We also know that both the Band of the Hand and Perrin's army were in the South marching north, and there was a huge coalition near Tear as a distraction to make Sammael think Rand was going to invade Illian.

 

Bela? No need to be silly when we all know he is Olver. This is serious business here man, if you want to be a comedian go to theoryland. :mad:

 

In all seriousness I have been partial to the idea of Demandred coming from Shara, although I am sure he has his finger in more than one pie. It has been mentioned far too often in the series for it to not come into play in my opinion, and it is also huge geographically and has the potential to house a lot of military and OP assets. We know that somebody was impersonating the Dragon Reborn to Masema and giving him crazy orders, which I believe was Demandred. I could see him doing the same thing in Shara to take control and make them believe they are heading to TG in service of the DR and unwittingly serving the Shadow.

 

I know there have been rumors in the story of civil war and unrest in Shara but it still makes sense. Every other culture has prophecies of some sort concerning the DR, that he breaks all previous bonds bringing change and chaos. I find it doubtful that the Sharans do not have their own version. What little we know of them paints a picture of a firmly established heirarchy and rigid order in longstanding, having that system suddenly break down would certainly be momentous and confusing. It would be perfect timing for an impostor DR to show up and assert control, "fulfilling prophecy" and offering a new paradigm.

 

His force needs to be spectactular if it is going to impress in AMOL. It makes more sense to me than the Land of Madmen which has zero mention in the actual series and would be a total out of left field idea for most people who have read the series. I am certain Moridin is in control of any forces in the Blight, as well as pretty sure he is the main player pulling strings in the Black Tower one way or another. I think the only Seanchan forces we see involved in TG are already in Randland and under the control of Tuon (may She live forever). Murandy is a wildcard that might have strong potential militarily (without channellers though) but do not really seem like a flashy OMG surprise for Dem's big entrance, I also have a hard time seeing them being duped en masse into attacking fellow Randlanders who are engaged with shadowspawn at TG.

 

Shara provides mystery and shock value, OP assets, the possibility for exotic creatures a la the Seanchan's Grolm/Raken/Lopar/etc., possibility of a large conventional military force(with potential naval assets as well) and all the wow factor stuff people are hoping for with Dem. They are also isolated and disconnected enough from the rest of Randland that them being tricked into attacking the forces of Light is much more easy to believe, unlike any other faction they are ignorant of the national identities and histories of the rest of the continent. It just makes the most sense to me all considered. I do believe the big reveal with Demandred will involve more than just military might however and center around whatever task he has been doing for the DO, whether that be going balefire crazy or something else.

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To start with, I don't think the DF Ashaman group at the Black Tower are 13x13 turned people, I think that they're one of two: actual DF's or under compulsion. This is supported by the fact that from the Aes Sedai Tarna Feir and Javindhra both suddenly change their minds about staying at the BT without becoming evil as far as we can see, they're just under compulsion.

 

The reason I brought that up is that I think the weird eye color of the red veiled Aiel is a definite sign of being 13x13 turned, and the fact that the BT Ashaman aren't like that isn't evidence to the contrary.

 

Lastly, even though Demandred has been confirmed to not be Taim, he could still be giving Taim orders, and the BT therefore still could be his army even if he doesn't personally deal with the Ashaman. My two guesses would be Demandred's army is either the BT or the rvAiel. I hadn't considered the rvAiel as being a possibility for his forces before reading your post though, that's a pretty intriguing idea.

Turning by a circle of 13x13 only works on channelers. So unless all these red vieled aiel can channel I dont think your theory works.

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I have several guesses.

 

1. He's sitting on the crystal throne. He and Semirhage were working together. Since Semirhage went to the Westlands, he may have stayed behind on Seanchan. Semirhage is very powerful and insidious, but it doesn't make sense for a single female channeler to be able to kill the entire royal family with 2572752 damane standing around. Demandred is the military mind, and may have thousands of usages for the Ever Victorious Army.

 

The rumors of Matt killing a forsaken may be foreshadowing for Matt v Demandred. When Matt and Tuon return to Seanchan to fulfill the prophecy of "righting a wrong" which some people take as freeing the damane, he may have to fight Demandred as his final opponent. The Horn already being used against Seanchan doesn't hurt this either. He may have to use it to stand a chance against Demandred's giant army.

 

He could also be Lunal Galgan, who first appeared in KoD, where Jordan said Demandred first showed up. It would make sense if he went to Seanchan with Matt and Tuon, then proceeded to betray them. This makes less sense though, as Graendal start putting strings on the Westlands Seanchan, and would be an idiot not to see Demandred there. Graendal has proven to hardly be an idiot.

 

2. He's watching Rand. This may mean he's been recruiting his army under his nose. He may even have been Weiramon. If you recall, he was talking to the DF Ashaman Rochaid. He could be any key figure in Rand's army recruiting darkfriends to his cause. He could've planted darkfriends all over every single army Rand has touched (Aiel, Illian, Tear, BT, etc).

 

3. NARISHMA dun dun dun

 

not

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