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Where is Demandred's Army coming from?


Lord D
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  1. 1. Where is Demandred's Army coming from?

  2. 2. If you selected "Other" above, where do you think Dem's army is?

    • The Black Tower
    • Murandy
    • Seanchan
    • Some combination of all the above
    • Still other


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"My rule is secure, I gather for war. We will be ready".

 

This doesn't sound like a amassing a huge army to me. In fact this sounds like the second most acclaimed man in the AoL gathering his own Hundred Companions from turned Ashaman. At the time he made this statement the turning had commenced, the timelines all fit. What better army than one hundred powerful and sane male channelers led by an extremely powerful and knowledgeable super general forsaken?

Done right they could have a devastating effect as a support force for the main trolloc hordes, imagine if they'd appeared at Maradon a day before Rand did, the trollocs would have hit Arad Doman not long after.

 

But we know that Taim isn't Demandred from what we saw at the cleansing in WH and from RJ's comments. It's very hard to see Demandred been involved with the Asha'man, given that Dashiva (Osan'gar) was also there, and that Taim is evidently one of the Shadow's guys.

 

 

When I think of Taim I always wonder how long he's been down with the darkside. Before, or after Toman Head and the pattern nixed him being the Dragon, or even before or after Rand put him in charge of the BT.

 

I ask because I figure there very well could have been an assigned go-between for the DO - he could be taking his orders from somebody eh? Granted Osan'gar was at the BT as well, but was he there well after Taim had already sworn to the DO, and could possibly have had serious dealings with Demandred?

 

I think Demandred had to do directly with the downfall of Seanchan, and seized power thereabouts, or he's been chumming it up with Taim. :loial:

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I think people also seem to forget that a forsaken can have their hands in more than one pot. I think he most certainly has a hand in Murandy and Seanchan and who knows what else. It's not like he like the others sitting in one place, waiting to be attacked or some villain from a movie sitting on his throne and petting his cat. I was thinking he could possibly be the spy master that was with Perrin. He seemed to slip in and out to all factions. Maybe could have had a hand in turning both Aram and Masema.

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I really think the Taim = Dem theory, which was dispelled at the end of WH, is distorting views of Dem's likelihood to be at the BT. The DO already has capable people there; he doesn't need Dem's services at the BT. It's far more likely that Dem is outside Randland. Semirhage was responsible for what happened in Seanchan. The LoM is one place that the DO would definitely want to grab, given its complete barbarism.

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I maintain that Demandred is the power behind Taim turning the Ashaman. We know from WH that several of them have had orders from Demandred in the past. We know Moridin gave Graendal a dreamspike when he wasn't particularly happy with her, what's to stop him giving one to Demandred beforehand whom he has no reason to be unhappy with? I guarantee you Taim picked up the "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" line from Demandred, heck Demandred probably muttered it a few times in Taim's hearing.

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In WH one of the forsaken (Arangar I think) says that rand was Osangar's charge. And then she says Demandred was in charge of him too so this seems to be common knowledge to the forsaken. However in TGS Graendal says she has no idea where Demandred is. So Demandred must be doing at least two things at once. Demandred went to SG at the beginning of LoC. Rand had made it known by then that he was gathering male channelers. If I was the Dark One I would want someone in on that. Since Arangar look after Egwene and Meesana is in charge of the White Tower, would it not be a nice parallel to have Osangar looking after Rand while Demandred is in charge of the Black Tower? It would be from farther away than Meesana since he does not recognise Flinn and it would be harder hiding from Rand, at least at the beginning, since the ashaman were fewer than the Aes Sedai.Also seeing how much Demandred hates Rand it would be best if he was not tempted to lash out by being to near him. He also likes to use proxies. In WH one of the darkfriend ashaman says something like "first the Mhael said... then Demandred said... and finally Moridin said." That sounds like a chain of command to me. But if all the forsaken know about this then it can't be where his real "stronghold" is. His "lair" that Greandal would really like to know about must be somewhere else.

Edited by Master Ablar
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I don't see how Murandy or the Black Tower could be where his main stronghold is since Murandy is united in like book 10 and the Black Tower is introduced in book 6. What exactly has Demandred been doing for the first 5 or 9 books if either one of those is his stronghold. Also I recall Talmanes saying that Roedran gave him a copy of that great military book that Mat had read about. If Roedran is Demandred then giving a book full of great military advice to your enemy is a particularly bad call especially from one of the greatest general of all time. I don't see that he would need the band to unite Murandy in the first place. Just compel the most powerful nobles and there you go. I also don't think that Murandy is worthy of Demandred in the first place: no channelers and likely a none too large or organized army. And finally dividing and chaos seems to be the shadows way of doing thing rather than uniting and order. Take for example: Seanchan, Arad Doman, the White Tower, the Black Tower.

 

Wherever Demandred is, it must be somewhere isolated that does not know about Rand being the Dragon Reborn or about the Last Battle coming because otherwise why would they fight against him? Particularly now that his strength is so great. Everywhere in Randland is out of question (in terms of outright control of a nation or organization that is made up of mostly light following people), so is Seanchan since that was Semirhage's playing ground. It would make little sense for Semirhage to cause mass chaos in Seanchan simply for Demandred to unite the country considering the "let the lord of chaos rule" plan of the shadow. The Aiel and Sea Folk are off limits because not only is their leadership too hard to infiltrate but they are also sworn to serve Rand as the Dragon Reborn anyway so it would be completely pointless.

 

This leaves: the Blight, Portal Stones, Land of Madmen, and Shara. If Demandred is in the blight then there is little point to his "my rule is secure" in TGS. How could his rule not be secure if he is just commanding a bunch of darkfiends. Besides that seems to be Moridins area. As for the portal stone there is no evidence against or in favor of it but I would like to know how he knows which alternate world to go to and how he could have any influence there. I suppose its possible but I think its unlikely. The main problem with the land of madmen is that, as far as I can recall, it ha not been mentioned even once in the books in any way. Also how do you control a bunch of madmen? Does turning them to the shadow make them more sane? Would compelling them work? And could it really be called an army? Demandred says in TGS: "we gather for war". It can't take that long to gather several hundred of men (there can't be that many of them or they would be killing each other). Demandred is a general and will have an army at his command. An army would be more like several hundred thousand men and channelers to support them.

 

So my winner and favourite is Shara. It seems hard to bring in such a big nation in the last book but all you would really need is the army. Its not like we have heard all that much about Seanchan. Shara is completely isolated which allows Demandred to corrupt it without anyone knowing (even Greandal), it's headed by two leaderswho are akin to gods (in that they have complete authority) by the sharans which means they will not question them, and these rulers are actually puppets for a bunch of channelers. There are bound to be darkfriends among these channelers. Have the leaders turned to the shadow or compelled, have anyone who suspects anything silenced and there you go, you've got the power behind the throne. A throne that is empty thanks to Graendal kidnapping the two rulers. Perfect timing to place a couple of puppet leaders loyal to the shadow on the throne. Apparently Shara was in the midst of a rebellion because of the disappearance of the two rulers and the rumors that the dragon had been reborn. Demandred told Moridin that he was busy at one of the forsaken meetings. Maybe he was busy smothering a rebellion. This might take time in a nation as large as Shara. Since he said "my rule is secure" then perhaps it wasn't previously. Once order is restored have it announced that the supposed dragon reborn is a darkfriend and send Shara's armies to war against him. After all Demandred said "we gather for war". The world is divided into three by Demandred, Semirhage, and Meesana. Semirhage in Seanchan, Meesana in the White Tower, the heart of Randland and Demandred in Shara. Demandred has at his command a huge army, including channelers. The only army, apart from the aiel, to have ever defeated Hawkwings armies. Now that is worthy of Demandred.

 

And that is my far too drawn out opinion of where Demandred is. Feel free to tear it to peaces. Goodnight!

Edited by Master Ablar
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Forgive me if its been mentioned, I'm new to these fansites, but I've always wondered if the thousands of aiel that have left since rand's reveal of their past will come into play. Its been said way too many times not to mean anything about the aiel caught by the bleakness or whatever its called that throw down their spears and nobody knows where they went. Many more are unnaccounted for then went to the shaido. What if these were all the dark friend aiel and they were given orders that when the Caracarn was revealed to start gathering in the blight or somewhere. It would be a pretty massive army and since they're all aiel they'd be pretty badass as well. I definately think this is just one of several groups demy will use but they have to have some role after being mentioned so much.

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Forgive me if its been mentioned, I'm new to these fansites, but I've always wondered if the thousands of aiel that have left since rand's reveal of their past will come into play. Its been said way too many times not to mean anything about the aiel caught by the bleakness or whatever its called that throw down their spears and nobody knows where they went. Many more are unnaccounted for then went to the shaido. What if these were all the dark friend aiel and they were given orders that when the Caracarn was revealed to start gathering in the blight or somewhere. It would be a pretty massive army and since they're all aiel they'd be pretty badass as well. I definately think this is just one of several groups demy will use but they have to have some role after being mentioned so much.

 

The Aiel that left Rand have mostly been accounted for, as you mentioned a huge number became the Mera'din/Brotherless with the Shaido, another large number simply went back to the Waste to try to live their lives away from Rand, and a third group did like the following:

 

Suddenly a wave of dizziness hit him, a murky face filling his vision for an instant, and he staggered against a passerby. Taller than Rand himself, in bright green livery, the yellow-haired man shifted the large basket he was carrying and fended Rand off gently. A long, puckered scar ran down the side of his sun-dark face. Bowing his head, he murmured an apology and hurried on.

[...]

It was not the encounter with an Aielman that upset him. He had seen many since coming to Far Madding. For some reason, hundreds of the Aiel who fled after learning the truth of their history had ended up there, attempting to follow the Way of the Leaf when they had no more idea of what that entailed except that they were supposed to be lifelong gai'shain.

 

They simply tried merging into the Wetland nations as servants with Far Madding, because of it's stance against violence, having a larger concentration than other major cities. Assuming that so large a number of Aielmen were all darkfriends is a pretty big leap from simply being caught by the Bleakness. I don't doubt some of them were DF's but then, there are always a few.

Edited by Ashandarei
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Shara has to have something to do with the Last Battle, they can't just sit there twiddling thumbs while the rest of the world falls apart.

 

There is a civil war in Shara, which was engineered by the Shadow. I think that's the point of that civil war, as it keeps a continent that would probably support the Light out of the action. The Shadow would do better at recruitment in the Land of Madmen than in Shara.

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Shara has to have something to do with the Last Battle, they can't just sit there twiddling thumbs while the rest of the world falls apart.

 

There is a civil war in Shara, which was engineered by the Shadow. I think that's the point of that civil war, as it keeps a continent that would probably support the Light out of the action. The Shadow would do better at recruitment in the Land of Madmen than in Shara.

I find Demandred recruiting from the Land of the Madmen is unlikely as it hasn't been referenced in the books themselves.

 

As for Shara, the civil war could be used as a way to keep them from interfering but it could also be used as a way for Demandred or another Shadow-aligned individual to seize power. We also see a Sharan in KoD when Rand & Co go to the inn. He could be a refugee but he could also be a spy (similar to the one Mat ran into in the inn in Ebou Dar).

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If demandred is really that smart, it will pop out in tear or illian.

 

another question, why both the good and the evil ignores the seanchan mainlands. there would be easy to conquer at the time and would make a good base

for refreshing the armies of shadow.

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another question, why both the good and the evil ignores the seanchan mainlands. there would be easy to conquer at the time and would make a good base

for refreshing the armies of shadow.

Traveling to the Seanchan continent would take too much effort for a very strenuous undertaking, especially with Tarmon Gai'din happening. Also, the current civil war ensures that those on the other continent will not be able interfere in the Westlands.
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another question, why both the good and the evil ignores the seanchan mainlands. there would be easy to conquer at the time and would make a good base

for refreshing the armies of shadow.

Traveling to the Seanchan continent would take too much effort for a very strenuous undertaking, especially with Tarmon Gai'din happening. Also, the current civil war ensures that those on the other continent will not be able interfere in the Westlands.

They don't need anymore troop, they are already outnumbering human . In fact seizing seanchan land would be good to stop any reinforcement to the Light side , witch is not useful since the majority of Seanchan Army is in Randland .

Like Samael said the Shadow a little interest in other Land then the main continent because the fight is going to be Short and concentrate and that area .

Is Demandred going to lead Dreadlord only our troop as well? Because I don't see many human willing to fight alongside trolloc .

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I would feel that Jordan was cheating a bit if he introduced a Dark army from a Portal World. Apart from one jaunt in a portal world in tGH, all the action has taken place in the WoT world.
At least, unlike the Land of the Madmen, the Portal Stones have been mentioned in the WOT novels. And there are clues that the massive Trolloc armies are coming from mirror worlds, too.

 

Since I can't believe that the dark-eyed people in TOMep were Aiel, I guess I go with Shara as a place too long built up, and too large, to play no role.

 

Your obsession with the dark eyes baffles me. I mean read up on genetics sometimes. Also it's clearly shown being turned to the Dark makes you.. well, dark.

Here I'll even help you a little with a 5 second Google search: http://www.thetech.org/genetics/ask.php?id=29

 

We don't know anything about them, but they act like reverse Aiel, which fits perfectly with the whole theme of the books. Given 3,000 of inbreeding in the Blight in a city or settlements (We know they exist, from the Forsaken chapters in the later books) they could develop into anything.

 

As for the poll, I picked Shara but I really think Dem is the murderer on the Seanchan throne. It just fits perfectly for his character as the one who was always right behind Lews Therin. Though Murandy could be right too, especially the ominous dealings with the Band and the pipe to Talmanes. I don't trust that pipe. :)

Edited by JustCharlie
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The dark eyes are a dead give-away that they are not Aiel.

1) It has been used consistently in the books - no Aiel have dark eyes.

2) genetics, yeah, like Dark eyes being a dominant trait, and not possible to suddenly appear from "inbreeding" excepting spontaneous mutation - and even then it would at most impact 50% of the population.

 

If you start positing being changed genetically by the DO then I will claim that they are under no circumstances Aiel if they have been genetically modified by the dark - they are then shadowspawn ( check how trollocs were created - genetic manipulation).

Also I would ask who would ahve done it? The DO himself being locked away? Ishamael who is a philospher end not a genetic researcher? Aginor who created the other shadowspawn, and who was sealed away till the beginning of the books?

 

No, they are not Aiel, and they are not genetically manipulated Aiel. Dark eyes puts them 100% in the "not Aiel" column - what they ARE is up in the air, but they are not Aiel.

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The dark eyes are a dead give-away that they are not Aiel.

1) It has been used consistently in the books - no Aiel have dark eyes.

2) genetics, yeah, like Dark eyes being a dominant trait, and not possible to suddenly appear from "inbreeding" excepting spontaneous mutation - and even then it would at most impact 50% of the population.

 

If you start positing being changed genetically by the DO then I will claim that they are under no circumstances Aiel if they have been genetically modified by the dark - they are then shadowspawn ( check how trollocs were created - genetic manipulation).

Also I would ask who would ahve done it? The DO himself being locked away? Ishamael who is a philospher end not a genetic researcher? Aginor who created the other shadowspawn, and who was sealed away till the beginning of the books?

 

No, they are not Aiel, and they are not genetically manipulated Aiel. Dark eyes puts them 100% in the "not Aiel" column - what they ARE is up in the air, but they are not Aiel.

 

Okay so you say it at most could impact 50% of the population of any civilizations in the Blight for the last 3,000 years of collecting humans and Aiel and breeding, we only saw a few of the weird guys in the epiclogue, maybe they all don't have dark eyes. :aessedai:

 

I believe they're more likely Sharans though, but people being Mr. Doctor and totally denying a theory based on eye color is silly. The male Aiel Channelers had to go somewhere, Brandon even said we should know by now about them and has RAFO'd everything else.

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The dark eyes are a dead give-away that they are not Aiel.

1) It has been used consistently in the books - no Aiel have dark eyes.

2) genetics, yeah, like Dark eyes being a dominant trait, and not possible to suddenly appear from "inbreeding" excepting spontaneous mutation - and even then it would at most impact 50% of the population.

 

If you start positing being changed genetically by the DO then I will claim that they are under no circumstances Aiel if they have been genetically modified by the dark - they are then shadowspawn ( check how trollocs were created - genetic manipulation).

Also I would ask who would ahve done it? The DO himself being locked away? Ishamael who is a philospher end not a genetic researcher? Aginor who created the other shadowspawn, and who was sealed away till the beginning of the books?

 

No, they are not Aiel, and they are not genetically manipulated Aiel. Dark eyes puts them 100% in the "not Aiel" column - what they ARE is up in the air, but they are not Aiel.

 

Okay so you say it at most could impact 50% of the population of any civilizations in the Blight for the last 3,000 years of collecting humans and Aiel and breeding, we only saw a few of the weird guys in the epiclogue, maybe they all don't have dark eyes. :aessedai:

 

I believe they're more likely Sharans though, but people being Mr. Doctor and totally denying a theory based on eye color is silly. The male Aiel Channelers had to go somewhere, Brandon even said we should know by now about them and has RAFO'd everything else.

I said at most 50% of the descendant population after an unmentioned and unparalleled spontaneous genetic mutation.

 

Also, it is not at all silly to deny the theory that the named, then retracted, Aiel in the epilogue are Aiel based on them not conforming to the most defining physical characteristic we have seen in Aiel. It is however rather silly to make up various reasons that have not been hinted at or paralleled in the books so far to hold fast to a claim that this group is Aiel - especially when the naming of them as such is so clearly an in universe red herring that is even shown as such within the same paragraph.

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hi there, new here, though i do believe i's been brought up i'm going with 'many fingers in many pies idea'. i see a fleet coming at the seachen (the red sailed jobs from ToM) taim lending support on demand, a darkfriens army (or heavily represented at least) from murandy just because it's about time we saw one. far madding looks a nice weak target and valuble, i see it going down early and fast, and finally the trollocs in camyln. all dancing to demendred's tune. incidentily the fleet from seachen could be a good chance for the sea folk to get in on the action possibly patching up their differences with tuon (unlikely i know but then...). all the while demendred's gating from one conflict to the next having a grand old time till mat 'takes to the field'.

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Why is there no "black tower" option on the pole? I still believe it's Madmen, but if it's anywhere else I believe the black tower is still a viable option (just because Taim is Demendred doesn't mean Demendred is not controlled by Taim)

 

SORRY I meant "just because Taim ISN't Demandred..."

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Why is there no "black tower" option on the pole? I still believe it's Madmen, but if it's anywhere else I believe the black tower is still a viable option (just because Taim is Demendred doesn't mean Demendred is not controlled by Taim)

Cat-Sister, because I did the poll, and didn't (and still don't) think the BT is at all viable. The Shadow already has his people at the BT, with Taim and probably Moridin over Taim, so there's no need to put another Forsaken there when that guy would be far better used stirring up trouble outside Randland.

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Why is there no "black tower" option on the pole? I still believe it's Madmen, but if it's anywhere else I believe the black tower is still a viable option (just because Taim is Demendred doesn't mean Demendred is not controlled by Taim)

Cat-Sister, because I did the poll, and didn't (and still don't) think the BT is at all viable. The Shadow already has his people at the BT, with Taim and probably Moridin over Taim, so there's no need to put another Forsaken there when that guy would be far better used stirring up trouble outside Randland.

Except for the fact that Moridin was still dead when the Black Tower was started, and the fact that Demandred gives orders to Asha'man. Taim might not be precisely under his thumb any more, but that does not mean that the Black Tower is not an important part of his plans.

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