Unsatisfying Deaths

[Mr Hindley]

Just a thought while pondering on Nicola's pretty sudden and random demise in ToM - although she wasn't necessarily the most likeable character in the series, that made her interesting, and I would have expected a little... more. OK, it's fair enough to kill her off as we're often complaining about the lack of Light-side deaths, but it was so sudden and out of the blue I actually briefly assumed she wasn't really dead. But no, that's it. Cheerio, Nicola, don't let the door hit your arse on the way out.

 

Anyone else feel the same? A few other nominations from me:

 

- Anaiya. Sweet, kindly Anaiya, one of the nicest Aes Sedai. Dies off-screen due to a random and previously unmentioned association with Cabriana Mecandes. Pop, she's gone.

 

- Jaichim Carridin. OK, a cool (and grisly) death scene, but he popped up a hell of a lot in the early books, and then I think RJ just ran out of things to do with him, so he just... got killed. Come in, number seven, your time is up.

 

- Tylin. Plays a big role in aCoS, then gets slid under a bed like so much vacuum-bag-packed winter clothing, and that's her lot. She could have been given a Herid-Fel-style send-off paragraph, but no - it's goodnight, sweetheart. Maybe she had a row with the show producer.

 

- Carlinya. Eh?!? I know we're meant to RAFO, but still. She wasn't even granted so much as a mention for about four books before the narrative spotted her and went 'Oh, are you still here? OK, you'll do - SPLAT!'

 

Any other suggestions? Or is it just me? (To be fair, there have been any number of cool / moving / dramatic / WTF death scenes, too!)

[herid]

I agree on Nicola. Quite unexpected. It looked like she was set up to be developed further. My guess is that she was a casualty of the necessity to reduce the number of active players so as not to slow the story too much.

I also agree on Carridin. But my biggest disappointment by far is the death of Masema. His death scene is written quite well but still, the fact that he is killed off in such an abrupt and uninteresting way was a huge disappointment. He was pretty clearly being reserved by RJ for something far grander (something involving a confrontation with Rand I would guess). And some loose ends regarding him (like his interaction with Suroth) are left dangling and will likely never be explained. Too bad.

[Xader]

My guess is that she was a casualty of the necessity to reduce the number of active players so as not to slow the story too much.

 

The time for that was about five books ago. Can you imagine if BS wanted to kill off all of the secondary characters that are no longer needed? The Erinin would run red! lol

[Lacanos]

Arangar. Her death was totally out of nowhere and just a bit quick to be honest.

[herid]

 

 

The time for that was about five books ago. Can you imagine if BS wanted to kill off all of the secondary characters that are no longer needed? The Erinin would run red! lol

he might still, you just wait :)

And a number of minor characters have either died or have gone missing in tGS and ToM already. I don't know if it's deliberate or not.

Mistress Harfor seems to be on an extremely extended holiday from the Caemlyn palace. Reimon, Carlomin and Daerid are a completely gone from the Band. Have they deserted? There are many others.

[Ozzie_aiel]

I agree with Masemas death, dude terrorizes 2 countries, he and his army almost get wiped out by Shaido, and he get whacked by Faile and some Two Rivers lackeys? Should've gone out with more style, say Demandred coming down and smiting his butt for failing

 

Also the Amayar people. An entire ethnic group wiped out and for absolutely no reason aside from seeing a few Sail Mistresses cry.

[David Selig]

Balthamel. Killed by a giant plant man, what an epic fail for a Forsaken.

[The Fisher King]

Toram Ratian - I HATE that Lan slicing and dicing a fellow Blademaster happened offscreen.

 

It would have been WAY too sad to see Mangin actually walk to his own execution onscreen.

 

 

- Fish

[Feral]

Agree with Nicola. Couldn't stand the girl, but she had the Foretelling - a rare and useful Talent - yet she just gets thrown away in a really random way. And the thing is Egwene barely paid any attention to her death. She was just like "hah, told her so. oh well." I get it that Egwene is all cold and practical nowadays, but even if she doesn't care about a woman's death, I'd have thought she'd at least have been more annoyed about losing someone with Nicola's potential and Foretelling.

[Morsker]

I thought Nicola's death was cheap propaganda. She's a fig leaf thrown out to "remind" us that breaking the rules and being too curious is dangerous -- but to kill such a minor character this way, and let so many main characters get away with it, is just cheap.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

Semirhage; I thought she would be one of the main baddies. I also wanted to learn more about her feud with Lanfear, and her control of Seanchan.

[threadnecromancer]

Toram Ratian - I HATE that Lan slicing and dicing a fellow Blademaster happened offscreen.

 

It would have been WAY too sad to see Mangin actually walk to his own execution onscreen.

 

 

- Fish

 

When/how did that happen? I had been wondering what had happened to him while I was reading Towers of Midnight.

[randsc]

Pretty much every Foresaken who has died so far. THESE are the people the world has feared for 3000 years?

[Majsju]

I am actually kinda glad some characters get "unsatisfying" deaths. Kids, it is war, and in war most people does not go out in a blaze of glory. This is something I believe comes directly from RJs experiences as a soldier in a war.

Main characters should get "big2 deaths. The rest, just pieces to be removed from the board, even if it is pieces you have become somewhat attached to.

[moratcorlm]

Well, there's unsatisfying in terms of story resolution and there's unsatisfying in terms of writing. Nicola's death just had no impact emotionally or intellectually, which is a problem. It wasn't written in keeping with Jordan's usual depiction of the fury and senselessness of battle; it was sterile and surprising, like her name came up on a checklist and it was decided just to insert a sentence at random, unforeshadowed, unconnected, and dangling off the plot. It could have been included in a list of casualties after the fight, and would have been better for it.

[Majsju]

Well, when it comes to nicolas death, that is something we saw through the eyes of Egwene. And, i think we saw a difference between RJ and Brandon there. RJ as a former soldier must have seen comrades killed in battle, and would have written it in a quite different way. Brandon does an exceptional job, but that is an experience he just does not have.

[The Fisher King]

Toram Ratian - I HATE that Lan slicing and dicing a fellow Blademaster happened offscreen.

 

It would have been WAY too sad to see Mangin actually walk to his own execution onscreen.

 

 

- Fish

 

When/how did that happen? I had been wondering what had happened to him while I was reading Towers of Midnight.

 

 

This happened in Winter's Heart in Far Madding.

 

 

- Fish

[RahulSingh]

I thought that Yurlie was done injustice with his character being built up and then just letting him die... would have liked to see him grow as a character....

[Mr Ares]

Unsatisfying deaths? I nominate my own, I found it to be very disappointing. Fortunately, I got better.

 

I agree on Nicola. Quite unexpected. It looked like she was set up to be developed further. My guess is that she was a casualty of the necessity to reduce the number of active players so as not to slow the story too much.

How does that work? If you don't have anything for her to do, just don't have her do anything. That's how it usually works. How does keeping her around slow the story?

 

But my biggest disappointment by far is the death of Masema. His death scene is written quite well but still, the fact that he is killed off in such an abrupt and uninteresting way was a huge disappointment. He was pretty clearly being reserved by RJ for something far grander

Sanderson is going by the notes. If they say Masema lives, he lives, if they say he dies, he dies, if they say he has a big showdown with Rand, he does so. Given that he didn't have a showdown with Rand, and died in a pretty offhand manner, I'd say that his usefulness to the plot had expired as of the end of KoD. He wasn't reserved for anything, he'd done his job.

 

Arangar. Her death was totally out of nowhere and just a bit quick to be honest.

I think that would have worked better if we'd gone straight to the Greandal POV from Rand balefiring her palace - it still would have been an abrupt end for Aran'gar, but I don't think it would have seemed so bad comning right after.

 

And a number of minor characters have either died or have gone missing in tGS and ToM already. I don't know if it's deliberate or not.

Mistress Harfor seems to be on an extremely extended holiday from the Caemlyn palace. Reimon, Carlomin and Daerid are a completely gone from the Band. Have they deserted? There are many others.

Sanderson makes the world seem so much less populated than RJ did. Plenty of background characters who should be around just seem to disappear because they don't even get a passing mention.

[herid]

 

 

I agree on Nicola. Quite unexpected. It looked like she was set up to be developed further. My guess is that she was a casualty of the necessity to reduce the number of active players so as not to slow the story too much.

How does that work? If you don't have anything for her to do, just don't have her do anything. That's how it usually works. How does keeping her around slow the story?

 

If a character is developed to any great degree it looks and feels really bad when they simply fall off the scene and disappear into ether. As I (and you) mentioned that's exactly what BS did to a lot of minor characters. Now that I think on it, to some degree it's inevitable. RJ introduced so many detailed characters into the books that pacing slowed to a crawl as he had to visit them all. so many minor characters either have to be killed like Nicola or quietly disappear like Daerid.

 

But my biggest disappointment by far is the death of Masema. His death scene is written quite well but still, the fact that he is killed off in such an abrupt and uninteresting way was a huge disappointment. He was pretty clearly being reserved by RJ for something far grander

Sanderson is going by the notes. If they say Masema lives, he lives, if they say he dies, he dies, if they say he has a big showdown with Rand, he does so. Given that he didn't have a showdown with Rand, and died in a pretty offhand manner, I'd say that his usefulness to the plot had expired as of the end of KoD. He wasn't reserved for anything, he'd done his job.

I read an interview with BS where he explains the extent of the notes. They didn't cover every character in every detail and often just mentioned the position of a character at a certain time point and it was up to Sanderson how to get that character there. I find it very hard to believe that after dragging Masema around for so many books and not letting anybody kill him RJ would let him be killed off in the way he was. IMO It's almost as bad as if he died by falling off a horse or from food poisoning (both quite possible in principle).

[Kadere]

Honestly, and no offense to Jordan, but I think it's harder to find satisfying deaths in WoT. Jordan has a whole thing about killing characters off screen (Sammael, Toram Riatin, Couladin, Nicola, Anaiya, Reanne, Rhadam Asunawa, Ingtar, Jain Farstrider, Hadnan Kadere, Barthanes Damodred, Tylin etc.). On one level I like this because it shows that mores going on in the world then just what's happening our PoV character can see. But when you've spent 3 books with Sammael, I would have hoped to see his death instead of being left to wonder if he was alive, only to be told almost immediately after by RJ that he did in fact die.

 

Other unsatisfying deaths might include Be'lal, Balthamel, Osan'gar, Paitr Conel, Aram, the Gholam, and Peral Torval, Tylin.

 

Satisfying deaths though would include Rahvin, Raefar Kisman, Nalesean, Ingtar, Pedron Niall, Eamon Valda, Hadnan Kadere, Melindhra, Ishamael, Verin, Maeric, Liah.

[Moments]

But my biggest disappointment by far is the death of Masema. His death scene is written quite well but still, the fact that he is killed off in such an abrupt and uninteresting way was a huge disappointment. He was pretty clearly being reserved by RJ for something far grander

Sanderson is going by the notes. If they say Masema lives, he lives, if they say he dies, he dies, if they say he has a big showdown with Rand, he does so. Given that he didn't have a showdown with Rand, and died in a pretty offhand manner, I'd say that his usefulness to the plot had expired as of the end of KoD. He wasn't reserved for anything, he'd done his job.

 

It's true that Sanderson did as RJ wished regarding Masema's end, but the whole thing is more or less unresolved. What happened to him meeting with the Seanchan or the Aes Sedai accompanying Perrin? Everyone just completely forgot about it.

[OptimusPrime]

Couladin. Enough with the "I got to imagine that fight all by myself" bullcrap. You are being told a story. That would have been Mats best fight, if we saw it. Couladin was AGGRESSIVE even for an Aiel, savage almost, and I felt like he was becoming a great non-Shadow antagonist even if he was part of Asmodeans plan. What annoyed me the most about it being offscreen is that Mat had a brilliant idea to ensure that Couladin would attack, and that was to have his men shout "Protect the Lord Dragon!" so Couladin would think Rand was actually with the army. I could see Couladins face as that shout was heard by him and his Shaido, and the fury at realising Rand wasnt there... not only would that fight with Couladin and Mat have been awesome, but it would have been even better from Couladins PoV. But nooooo. Offscreen.

 

Osan'gars death annoyed me as well. It put Elza on the map, and was ultimately down to Verin, and in a way its showing how Ta'verenism pulls anyone into the right place at the right time under the right conditions to ensure the Ta'veren sirvive. But Osan'gar was Forsaken and he achieved NOTHING after his reincarnation, and to be killed off by a Darkfriend felt even cheaper than his first death in EotW.

[The Fisher King]

Sammael.

 

 

- Fish

[Kadere]

But my biggest disappointment by far is the death of Masema. His death scene is written quite well but still, the fact that he is killed off in such an abrupt and uninteresting way was a huge disappointment. He was pretty clearly being reserved by RJ for something far grander

Sanderson is going by the notes. If they say Masema lives, he lives, if they say he dies, he dies, if they say he has a big showdown with Rand, he does so. Given that he didn't have a showdown with Rand, and died in a pretty offhand manner, I'd say that his usefulness to the plot had expired as of the end of KoD. He wasn't reserved for anything, he'd done his job.

 

It's true that Sanderson did as RJ wished regarding Masema's end, but the whole thing is more or less unresolved. What happened to him meeting with the Seanchan or the Aes Sedai accompanying Perrin? Everyone just completely forgot about it.

 

Actually Perrin thinks about this very thing at the beginning of ToM, so it hasn't been forgotten. Whether we'll find out what he was doing with the Seanchan we'll have to wait till AMoL to find out. Since the Seanchan are about to show up at Tar Valon, and all our heroes are pretty close by, I'd say there's a good chance of us discovering what they were planning.