He Used The True Power Again

[akira.taylor]

There seems to be evidence that Rand is able to channel the TP:

 

1:He is not the least bit bothered by the amount of Aes Sedai in the white tower when he visits Egwene (way more than neccesary to sever him), and doesn't object to being shielded which indicates that he has access to a power that is not the OP.

 

I should point out a possibility i have considered here, that his confidence in this regard comes from the magnitude of his "Ta'verenness" and his control over it. There is even evidence that the sisters were unable to resist his "pull" ("i couldn't even move"). However-

 

2:The comment he makes about the Gaurdian when meeting with the borderlanders that he would have returned their slaps with Balefire. There is no indication that Rand could use his "Ta'verenness" to produce Balefire from the pattern itself. Therefore, being sheilded from the OP, he must have been refering to the TP.

 

This doesn't neccisarily prove that Rand still has TP access. He commented that he would have in the past, perhaps indicating that he no longer could; i think however it is much more likely he is refering the recent change in his mental state which allow him to overcome his initial impulse to Balefire them out of the pattern. This is shown in that he "passed the test" so to speak, of the Borderlanders. Their prophesy had nothing to do with whether or not he had TP access; his mental state, however, was in question.

 

Problem with justifying his indifference to being shielded with having access to the True Power - Jordan has stated that shielded is shielded (Week 8 Tor Question of the Week). Now, this doesn't quite mesh with the Domination Band in The Gathering Storm, but that doesn't exactly shield you (it just lets the woman control Saidin). And Jordan said it was so, so it probably is (he had to Maria And Find Out once).

[OptimusPrime]

I dont think Rands calmness about being shielded has anything to do with the True Power, I think thats more to do with his faith in his Ta'verenism and his ability to affect the Pattern with his will.

[Kalm]

There seems to be evidence that Rand is able to channel the TP:

 

1:He is not the least bit bothered by the amount of Aes Sedai in the white tower when he visits Egwene (way more than neccesary to sever him), and doesn't object to being shielded which indicates that he has access to a power that is not the OP.

 

I should point out a possibility i have considered here, that his confidence in this regard comes from the magnitude of his "Ta'verenness" and his control over it. There is even evidence that the sisters were unable to resist his "pull" ("i couldn't even move"). However-

 

2:The comment he makes about the Gaurdian when meeting with the borderlanders that he would have returned their slaps with Balefire. There is no indication that Rand could use his "Ta'verenness" to produce Balefire from the pattern itself. Therefore, being sheilded from the OP, he must have been refering to the TP.

 

This doesn't neccisarily prove that Rand still has TP access. He commented that he would have in the past, perhaps indicating that he no longer could; i think however it is much more likely he is refering the recent change in his mental state which allow him to overcome his initial impulse to Balefire them out of the pattern. This is shown in that he "passed the test" so to speak, of the Borderlanders. Their prophesy had nothing to do with whether or not he had TP access; his mental state, however, was in question.

 

I think you guys are reading far too much into his willingness to walk into the WT. Beyond his confidence in his Ta'veren abilities and his new outlook on life, what could the WT do? Honestly, severing is not even an option for them at this point with the LB confronting them. They have to have him around at full capacity or else they risk losing so severing is out the window. Rand would know this.

 

Now, he can still be shielded and held you might say, but with Egwene as Amyrlin and her attitude towards Rand and all her monologue to Elaida about "reaching out to him, offering guidance [etc]" I highly doubt holding him would appeal to her. It would be considered obviously, but with Rand's sheer military might and the threat of the BT (If they saved him from the Reds, you have to consider that Egwene would consider them coming to the rescue again), it's honestly not a smart choice for a leader. Too much tension and division (Isn't that what Egwene is fighting against anyway?) in the world in the face of their darkest hour, and all focused on the WT while it is still in the process of rebuilding. You might argue Rand is unaware of Egwene's attitude towards him (Which is essentially true), but he is aware of their need of him, the force behind him and the division of the Tower.

 

I simply think that these things combined to make him totally nonchalant about the whole thing. Plus, he's the Goddamn Dragon. A 400-something year old legend. Shouldn't be phased much by AS IMO.

[Moments]

The problem is people saw the webs Rand was weaving. Otherwise I'd leap on this--I'm not a fan of Jesus-Rand.

 

He's right. As soon as the Asha'man present (name escapes me) mentioned in awe of how many weaves Rand was holding at once, I never even thought about him using the True Power. If it hasn't been mentioned before, maybe the True Power was also Rand's confidence at breaking any shield the Aes Sedai might have held him with when he went to see Egwene in Tar Valon? I'm assuming the True Power isn't shield-able like the One Power is, so that's just my theory.

 

And me either, Luckers. Rand's personality seems to have been wiped clean so we can have a demigod in the story for a while.

 

EDIT: And for Rand Therin, Rand's never been truly afraid of the White Tower gentling him. The issue's been more with its insistence that it 'house' him until the Last Battle to ensure his success in getting there. Under Elaida, this 'housing' would have been having him beaten so he'd bow to her, or some other nonsense. Rand's obviously over the paranoia that was almost ever present until the end of tGS, but I don't think he's completely unwary of Aes Sedai now. It would be imprudent, in the least. He obviously has a trick up his sleeve, whether that's his sa'angreal (unlikely the entire WT linked could shield him if he's holding saidin with that) or the True Power, we may never know.

[Elan Tedronai]

first of all if 13 sisters linked together and rand would be shielded.and if you are OP shielded, then you cannot touch TP as well.

 

Now if he was holding callandor in his hands and already seized the source then it becomes tricky. But unaided,13 sisters will be able to take him. Infact once shielded you only need 6 aes sedai to maintain a shield. Provided it is a soft shield and not tied up which allowed rand to break free when he was captive in LOC

[Aquarius]

I have always expected Rand's role to be deeper, and his conflict to be more philosophical rather than just "My blowup is bigger than your blowup".

Indeed. But at the same time, I will be severly disapointed if this philosophical struggle is just some kind o "Love is the answer" hippie theme.

[haloun]

hey why is it impossible for rand to have been using callandor? the times he has used it in the past similar effects were produced, the only difference now is that he no longer is affected by the taint, which is what made him kill his own people before, or part of it at least, i have a theory about the sword that is not a sword and the flaws it has, that the flaw makes it not only a sa'angreal, but a ter'angreal as well, when he thinks about who he wants to kill, it happens. in the stone of tear he focused on the trollocs, and they all died. in the battle, with the seanchan lews therin was ranting about killing his allies, and they started to die. why could he not be using that again? that would also be considered a using callandor issue, and like you said at the first that would bring the DO.

[Haftarun8]

It's possible he was using Callandor; maybe that was the source of the blinding light as the sword glows particularly bright when a lot of power is drawn from it? On the other hand it would've been obvious the light was coming from a focal point on Rand's person, even if it were covered up.

 

I honestly think it's just a case of "you ain't seen S**T yet!" It's the first time we've seen the Rand's unaided full raw power potential coupled with 400 years of knowledge and skill of how to most effectively wield that much OP. Lews Therin was easily as famous for his unequaled (save for maybe Lanfear) power wielding dexterity as he was for his unequaled raw power. Compared to a Rand-in-training during the manor scene in book 11, who's mind was in constant internal strife over the LTT psyche/memories, it's obvious he was nowhere near his full potential. Compare that to the next powerful channeler on the light side, Logain. Even in book 11 his weaves were noticeably less potent than Rand's (I'm guessing at least 10-15% less by the way he talked after that manor fight). Add to that Logain's lack of centuries of refined scientifically backed skill compared to AoL Aes Sedai. Now, compared to Logain, the next one even relatively close in power is Damer Flinn. Compared to him, your slightly above average Asha'man like Grady and Neald are nowhere near as powerful...you see where I'm getting at?

 

Methinks even after 13 books we still have no idea just how broad the scale is from the weakest, least-skilled channeler to the most powerful, highest skilled one.

[Haftarun8]

(@ Torn Shadow as my reply ended up in front of his somehow)

 

In terms of raw power, yes. In terms of skill/dexterity, though? I'd agree Demandred is very close, and perhaps Taim is close to Demandred if he's indeed a direct forsaken understudy. But we've never seen those two using the one power at their full potentials into a mass of trollocs. Plus neither of them may be as particularly adept at wielding fire as Rand/LTT is, which I would assume is the most used power in a lot of the insanity Rand was throwing out there. As for Logain I believe he's about tied in strength with Taim; but strength and skill/experience are two vastly different things. Logain's only recently had any teaching aside from his own - before that he was likely self taught. He has no access to possibly thousands of years of intricate scientific study that LTT had, nor has he had nearly 400 years of channeling and study based on that research. Ask Joe Montana if he was as good of a QB in his sophomore year of college as he was over a decade later when he won Super Bowl XXIV.

[Byzantine279]

LTT and Ishamael were equal in power; both were the strongest a man can be. Demandred is just a slight step down from them, and Taim/Logain appear to be just below them.

[akira.taylor]

LTT and Ishamael were equal in power; both were the strongest a man can be. Demandred is just a slight step down from them, and Taim/Logain appear to be just below them.

 

Where is that from? I know all five are powerful (particularly the first three), but I wasn't aware they were THE top end.

[justincrb]

I don't think the scene on the blight boarder had anything to do with the TP, but more to do with Rand controlling his emotions. He used a lot of power, but I think it was just because he "leveled up" after his struggle with the CK. Male channelers become stronger in short bursts whereas with female channelers it's a gradual process.

 

It seems to me Rand has to be Good with a capital G if he is going to defeat the Dark One. I think for the Dark One to win he has to convert Rand to "the dark side" in the Star Wars sense. Remember the game Moridin was playing where the two sides struggle to control the "Fisher", a blind, one handed man with a side wound (obviously Rand)? Well the Fisher seems an obvious reference to the Fisher King of Authurian legend. There is a book called "From Ritual to Romance" that I had to read back in school for a class where we were analyzing T.S. Eliot's "The Wasteland". It discusses the Fisher King character. It's been a while, but from what I remember the Fisher King in legend is tied to the land, is in fact very literally the land. If the King is ill the world is ill, if the King is evil the world is a wicked place... and vice versa. If the world is wicked, the king can become wicked. I'm sure RJ was familiar with the tale, the Fisher reference is just too obvious.

 

The Dark One cannot escape his prison. Even when the bore was fully open He could only touch the world. He needs an avatar to exist in it. Ishy and Moridin made good avatars, and of course Shaidar Harran (no idea how to spell that... audio book fan), but I think that what the DO really wants is Rand, the Creator's champion, the man so Taveren that he is the land itself (as evidenced by all the sunny skies and blooming trees). If Rand is at peace the blight recedes (EoTW, it certainly didn't recede because 2 Forsaken got temporarily taken off the board). If he acts out of rage or hatred he becomes one step closer to becoming the DO's avatar. That's why the DO is trying to hurt him not kill him, and that's why he's letting him have access to the TP (I don't think the Moridin connection is all there is to that). Only by Rand becoming the DO's avatar can the world be made in his image. The trolloc hoards, the bad weather, the bubbles of evil --all of that is just to make Rand hate and become more susceptible to evil.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Hi Guys, new to the boards but been a fan for the last 20 years. Am i wrong in saying that the DO bestows the ability to channel the true power, because if this is true its very doubtful that he would allow Rand to channel the TP after his intergration.

 

I think and agree with a previous poster,that its his intergrated knowledge from LTT that allowed him to channel that amount of the one power and the complexity of the weaves.

 

Any thoughts?

 

I have a theory, that because Rand and Moridin are merging, Moridins permission to channel the True Power IS Rands permission, and if the Dark One wanted to stop Rand from using it, he would have to stop Moridin. But the Dark One needs someone to have access.

 

Could be wrong of course.

 

One thing though. Graendal, in ToM, thought to herself that her access to TP was a gift from Moridin, but then she corrects herself and says it was the Dark One.

 

Why on earth would anyone make that mistake? I think its because the Dark One can possess True Power wielders. Im also tempted to believe that Ba'alzamon really was the Dark One possessing Ishamael back in the day, but Im not sure. But I think the possession thing will come into play at the end, I reckon Rand will break the Seals and channel the True Power, this will make the Dark One try to possess him, and Rands plan will be to die with some of the Dark One in him

 

An interesting point here. I do like the theory of the DO possession. It would explain Ishamael's insanity adn thinking he is really the DO. Because, well... technically he WOULD be the DO. Or the DO acting through his body.

 

Anyway, I am not sure about Rand using the TP to make the DO possess him. However, it does have a certain similarity between the viewings of Callandor. Callandor's flaw seems to make him vunerable to the Shadow. It has already been established it magnifies the Taint. Perhaps it does the same or a similar thing with the TP. Rand uses Callandor to make himself vunerable, then uses the TP to connect himself to the DO, then use his own body as the buffer between the DO and the OP, so the prison is sealed again, and instead of the OP being Tainted, Rand dies?

 

Hell, I dont know. The point is, I like the possibilites that your theory has.

 

 

I don't think possession in a transference is meant. The true power is the very essence of the DO. In all honesty I think continued exposure to it will transform you and turn you into a part of the DO per se. Since you are channeling and filling yourself part of his very being. You will have the mind and memory of the DO but the actual DO is still trapped and stuck behind the bore. This would explain the rather interesting conversation between Ba'alzamon and Rand, Ba'alzamon actually possessed the mind and memory of the DO due to all the exposure to the true power/dark one's essence. It was why he was speaking in the first person about quite a few things.

[Entreri]

How much Power can the Dragon or DR manage unaided? It seems to be some crazy amount.

 

The amount of saidin he used during the Cleansing, he could "melt a continent"...When he extended himself using the Choden Khal, he could destroy the world in one blow.

 

"He closed his eyes, drawing in more and more of the power, feeling as he had only TWICE before. Once when he had cleansed saidin. Once when he had created this mountain".

[Hopefire]

I don't think the scene on the blight boarder had anything to do with the TP, but more to do with Rand controlling his emotions. He used a lot of power, but I think it was just because he "leveled up" after his struggle with the CK. Male channelers become stronger in short bursts whereas with female channelers it's a gradual process.

 

It seems to me Rand has to be Good with a capital G if he is going to defeat the Dark One. I think for the Dark One to win he has to convert Rand to "the dark side" in the Star Wars sense. Remember the game Moridin was playing where the two sides struggle to control the "Fisher", a blind, one handed man with a side wound (obviously Rand)? Well the Fisher seems an obvious reference to the Fisher King of Authurian legend. There is a book called "From Ritual to Romance" that I had to read back in school for a class where we were analyzing T.S. Eliot's "The Wasteland". It discusses the Fisher King character. It's been a while, but from what I remember the Fisher King in legend is tied to the land, is in fact very literally the land. If the King is ill the world is ill, if the King is evil the world is a wicked place... and vice versa. If the world is wicked, the king can become wicked. I'm sure RJ was familiar with the tale, the Fisher reference is just too obvious.

 

The Dark One cannot escape his prison. Even when the bore was fully open He could only touch the world. He needs an avatar to exist in it. Ishy and Moridin made good avatars, and of course Shaidar Harran (no idea how to spell that... audio book fan), but I think that what the DO really wants is Rand, the Creator's champion, the man so Taveren that he is the land itself (as evidenced by all the sunny skies and blooming trees). If Rand is at peace the blight recedes (EoTW, it certainly didn't recede because 2 Forsaken got temporarily taken off the board). If he acts out of rage or hatred he becomes one step closer to becoming the DO's avatar. That's why the DO is trying to hurt him not kill him, and that's why he's letting him have access to the TP (I don't think the Moridin connection is all there is to that). Only by Rand becoming the DO's avatar can the world be made in his image. The trolloc hoards, the bad weather, the bubbles of evil --all of that is just to make Rand hate and become more susceptible to evil.

I agree with a lot of what you said - point by point I think that we're pretty much in alignment. Which is cool, because it seems obvious to me but not everyone agrees.

 

The one area I disagree with you on is the Dark One's goals. I think that Ishmael is being completely honest when he says that the Dark One intends to destroy everything, forever. It won't be a corrupted world ruled over by him, it'll be nothing. Void. More final than the heat death of the universe. The question is, why does he need Rand's help? Or does he?

 

There were plenty of points in the series where it looks like Ishmael and the Dark One should have been able to kill Rand off. For the most part, the series has had the Dark One and his side trying to recruit Rand. Everything previous to Veins of Gold has been, in the long run, about turning Rand. Rand has been wounded and betrayed over and over again, on so many levels. The way that the Taint has worked on him hasn't been to break his sanity like it did during the Age of Legends, but rather to increase his anger and suspicion, while reducing his faculties for love, hope and faith. So, I think that we agree that far for the most part.

 

Rand was led to the point where he almost did exactly what the Dark One wanted him to do: destroy the world. Rand decided not to destroy everything, and the Dark One finally sent his armies out. Right now, the Dark One appears to be operating off of the back-up plan. But why was this the back-up plan? Things don't fully add up. The primary plan was to turn Rand, the secondary plan seems to be to conquer the world to try to prevent Rand from sealing him up again, so he can eventually break free on his own and destroy everything. Why wasn't the primary plan to just off Rand ASAP, send his massive armies south to keep people occupied, and break out on his own time? It doesn't make sense, unless for some reason Rand destroying the Wheel of Time is better than the Dark One breaking the Wheel himself.

 

My theory is that if the Dark One destroys everything, the Creator simply remakes the Wheel. The Dark One is bound right back where he started, Day One of Infinity. But if Rand destroys everything, it's gone for good.

 

It's a theory.

 

I am looking forward to the reveal in AMOL, to see how close I am, and how close others have been.

[justincrb]

 

The one area I disagree with you on is the Dark One's goals. I think that Ishmael is being completely honest when he says that the Dark One intends to destroy everything, forever. It won't be a corrupted world ruled over by him, it'll be nothing. Void. More final than the heat death of the universe. The question is, why does he need Rand's help? Or does he?

 

 

I agree with that except I don't think that the Dark One is actually powerful enough to do that. I also think Moridin/Ishy is completely aware of this. I think he's not exactly playing for the DO to win in the sense that the DO might desire. Ishy might have been, but Moridin is much more sane.

 

The reason I say I don't think the DO is powerful enough to do that is because I think the playing field is specifically the planet Earth, not the entire universe, which the DO would need to destroy to create a void. He might want to create a void, but it's not possible. He's essentially a "local god", as is the Creator.

 

I know this theory is a little out there but there is evidence for it. RJ was a physics major and wanted everything to ultimately make sense, otherwise I wouldn't even bother theorizing. I'm eagerly awaiting the final reveal too.

 

First, there is a limited amount of the Power, though it's constantly recycled. This was demonstrated during Rand's cleansing. We also get a sense of how much there is, enough to surround the Earth but not the solar system. We know that the taint was local to Earth as when all gathered up it was only city sized, whereas if it was even solar system sized it would presumably be exponentially larger. This implies that the Creator created life on Earth, but did not create the universe. Other planets might have their own versions of the Power surrounding them (this comes from an RJ interview where he says that during the AoL people did use Traveling to travel to other planets, which probably explain the Orgier -- they are aliens), but the DO only tainted Earth's Power. It's reasonable to assume that there is an either equal amount or less then amount of the True Power compared to the One Power. This is evidenced by the Creator being capable of sealing away the Dark One (though its also possible that they are two faces of the same entity like Janus, both of which are sealed away from the Earth, which wouldn't surprise me given RJ's love of mythology).

 

Second, we know Randland is our Earth some time in the future. Dinosaur bones show up at one point as well as a plastic Mercedes emblem. There are also Thom's tails about the moon landing and the cold war. That would probably place Randland no less then 7,000 years but no more then 100,000 years in the future. This is at least hinted at if not actually confirmed during an RJ interview (I really wish I had the links to these interviews but they were on my old computer, which is dead).

 

Anyway, just theories... I don't think the DO can really win without Rand, and evidently he never gets him. He definitely cannot destroy the universe, no matter what, even if it's his goal. Moridin defintely knows this, but is willing to settle for "local" god-like power and immortality as he helps the DO fail again and again through the ages. He's probably in for a surprise about the immortality part I'm betting.

[Elan Tedronai]

i always thought that the theory of dark one needing rand to break free as hogwash. if lanfear and beidomon are able to drill a hole in the dark one's prison and let him extend his influence, surely a whole circle with men and women with a sangreal can rip it out completely?

[Brown Ajah]

I never thought about the True Power while reading that section. I assumed by "close to starting an encounter" that Rand and the DO were close to committing more and more forces that would escalate the small battle into a full-out war.

 

Rand channeling thte TP to initiate the encounter does sound attractive though. I don't think he actually did. By "coming close" he may have meant he was very tempted to use it, having reached the limits of his Saidin wielding. And as mentioned, there were witnesses.

 

About his anger, Rand states that he is entitled to his anger. He has always had a temper and trying to bottle it all up was the problem in the first place.

 

I agree, this is how i read it.

[juztin_tyme]

I am enjoying a lot of the discussion on this thread.

 

My view has always been that the Last Battle is a play for all of existence, not just for Earth. Even with the Cleansing scenes we really don't get a grasp of the "size" or "amount" of the OP that exists. Yes we know that the CK allow an individual to destroy a continent, but Rand and Nyn are channeling continent-destroying levels of the power for almost an entire day, or at least several hours, so take that to be an extremely large amount of the Power.

 

If they could have destroyed a continent every few moments, then I think that suggests something that goes beyond just one planet. Also, the taint was the size of a small mountain that covered an entire city, so that may not seem like a lot on a universal scale, but the taint is always described as a thin film covering saidin. So if you take a mountain's worth of that darkness and spread it out into a film I would imagine that would cover a vast amount of Power.

 

If the DO's goal is to destroy time and existence itself I don't see how that can only affect one planet or solar system. The DO is trying to destroy every Mirror World, every Parallel World, TAR, everything.

 

Still not sure what Philosophy classes Ishy took that led him to pick the DO's side. Must have been quite depressing.

[herid]

I am enjoying a lot of the discussion on this thread.

 

My view has always been that the Last Battle is a play for all of existence, not just for Earth. Even with the Cleansing scenes we really don't get a grasp of the "size" or "amount" of the OP that exists. Yes we know that the CK allow an individual to destroy a continent, but Rand and Nyn are channeling continent-destroying levels of the power for almost an entire day, or at least several hours, so take that to be an extremely large amount of the Power.

 

If they could have destroyed a continent every few moments, then I think that suggests something that goes beyond just one planet. Also, the taint was the size of a small mountain that covered an entire city, so that may not seem like a lot on a universal scale, but the taint is always described as a thin film covering saidin. So if you take a mountain's worth of that darkness and spread it out into a film I would imagine that would cover a vast amount of Power.

 

If the DO's goal is to destroy time and existence itself I don't see how that can only affect one planet or solar system. The DO is trying to destroy every Mirror World, every Parallel World, TAR, everything.

 

Still not sure what Philosophy classes Ishy took that led him to pick the DO's side. Must have been quite depressing.

The universe of WofT is very earth-centered and seems to be much smaller than the actual universe. The actual universe contains hundreds of billions (that the one with a "b") of galaxies and each galaxy contains hundreds of billions of stars. If one were to imagine that saidin and saidar are spread evenly through the whole universe Rand and Nynave would probably need to channel galaxy-destroying levels of power to get through all the taint. I don't think it's fruitful to push these ideas too far. It's best to accept that the universe of WofT is pretty small.

[Mandro]

Right dudes and dudettes.

 

When Ituralde watches Rand lay waste to the Trolloc army, we see him show an incredible ammount of power, which is fine. But two things about this scene make me think he used the True Power.

 

First off is how Rand describes the anger that rose again during the incedent, which he thought he was invulnerable to after the VoG incedent.

 

Second, and most important. While almost everyone who witnessed it displayed awe, Rands own words were that "it came too close to an encounter between us" and is clear beyond clear that when Rand talks about "him" without naming it, he is talking about the Dark One. Now I dont think Im making a big leap AT ALL in saying that in this scene, despite the magnitude of his power, Rand didnt use anywhere near the ammount of Power as he did in, say, the Cleansing, and there was no mention at all of anything like this then. I cant see how, given everything thats happened so far, that any saidin related incedent after the Cleansing could risk starting the encounter with the Dark One. The exceptions to that would of course include balefire, and maybe Callandor, but almost definitely not the weaves he used in this particular scene. We dont even need to know what the weaves were exactly to know that when Rand channeled this, his own words on it-it came too close to an encounter between us-could only mean that he channeled the True Power.

 

I also find it interesting that Rand says the Guardian stops the One Power, and the One Power only. It seemed clear to me that he was referring to the True Power here, which was the earlier scene of the two. But when Rand says it almost started an encounter between him and the Dark One the fact that he had implied knowledge of the True Power previously makes me think he used it, especially given his thoughts on the anger he thought he was immune to.

 

Thoughts?

 

The ashaman present saw the flows so it wasn't the True Power. He might have wanted to tap the true power to take it to 12, cuz lets admit, Rand's the dragon, the guy is always at 11, but he decided to deplete his innate ability rather than touch the dark again.

[Mandro]

Rand isnt stupid enough to use the TP again. He might be able to, but he wouldnt, unless at the uttermost end of need.

 

The Three becoming one, isn't about 2 women and a man using callandor, it is Saidar, Saidin and the True Power being focused T?HROUGH callandor.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

I am enjoying a lot of the discussion on this thread.

 

My view has always been that the Last Battle is a play for all of existence, not just for Earth. Even with the Cleansing scenes we really don't get a grasp of the "size" or "amount" of the OP that exists. Yes we know that the CK allow an individual to destroy a continent, but Rand and Nyn are channeling continent-destroying levels of the power for almost an entire day, or at least several hours, so take that to be an extremely large amount of the Power.

 

If they could have destroyed a continent every few moments, then I think that suggests something that goes beyond just one planet. Also, the taint was the size of a small mountain that covered an entire city, so that may not seem like a lot on a universal scale, but the taint is always described as a thin film covering saidin. So if you take a mountain's worth of that darkness and spread it out into a film I would imagine that would cover a vast amount of Power.

 

If the DO's goal is to destroy time and existence itself I don't see how that can only affect one planet or solar system. The DO is trying to destroy every Mirror World, every Parallel World, TAR, everything.

 

Still not sure what Philosophy classes Ishy took that led him to pick the DO's side. Must have been quite depressing.

 

 

Because of the nature of the Wheel. It forces infinite repetition and enslaves humanity to a constant circular flow of time. Humanity is incapable of progressing or moving forward since time is not linear. This is unfathomable for a philosopher such as Ishamael who probably goes along the mantra of "give me freedom or death." The concept that you are always forced to repeat, rinse and repeat. Your thread spun out again and again, Age after Age repeated. For Ishamael such an existence is not worth defending or continuing. Also I wonder if we really know the full extent of things or if there are still some things that Ishamael knows that no one else does.

[Nooska]

Rand isnt stupid enough to use the TP again. He might be able to, but he wouldnt, unless at the uttermost end of need.

 

The Three becoming one, isn't about 2 women and a man using callandor, it is Saidar, Saidin and the True Power being focused T?HROUGH callandor.

quotes, backup evidence?

[OptimusPrime]

Still not sure what Philosophy classes Ishy took that led him to pick the DO's side. Must have been quite depressing.

 

Pick any two more-or-less evenly matched fighters, sports teams, anything. Then imagine they are going to go against each other ten billion times. Ishamaels reasoning is that one side simply cannot win every single contest. If all it takes for the Creators side to be permanently out of the game would be for them to lose one contest out of the ten billion, it seems almost certain the Crators side IS going to be out, its only a question of when.

 

Doesnt matter what philosopgy discipline or "classes" he followed.