The Horn of Valere

[blazetheearth]

"Trumpeter, will you give us music on the Horn? Fitting that the Horn of Valere should sing us into battle."

 

At no point does Hawkwing refer to Mat as Hornsounder. A Fade calls him that in TSR, and Brigette calls him that in ED, but those are the only 2 references to the name.

 

Personally, I think it would be more likely that Brigette recognize him as a HoH during their discussion in ED than Hawkwing. But she says nothing about it. When he talks about "You're Brigette, a bloody Hero of the Horn, you can make them listen to you.", she doesn't say "You're a Hero too Mat, you make them do it." Instead she tells him that he has it wrong and that she follows, not leads.

 

As for why more HotH's weren't spun out to help Rand, because it was prophesied that the Horn itself would be needed before the LB. Would have been a slight problem if Mat had blown it a t Falme and only half of the Heroes showed up. Plus we have no way of knowing if perhaps the power of the Horn itself is weaker when more of the souls tied to it are spun into the Pattern where it cannot access them. I's possible that in previous Ages the Horn would only work as a regular bugle because all of the Heroes had been spun into the Pattern.

 

As it is, we know that at least 2 HotHs won't show up if/when Mat blows it again. Brigette and Gadial.

 

[kanucha]

My predictions (hopes)?

 

1. Perrin may die, and be brought back with the Horn long enough to complete his purpose. (Both prophecies fulfilled that way.)

 

2. Ingtar Shinowa may make an appearance, it'd be nice. Though in my opinion, Hurin should have died in The Great Hunt, and he should arrive with the Horns next sounding. Something passed between Hurin and Hawkwing, and I think the great king was impressed by the little man's bravery against great odds.

 

3. I think (hope) Sanderson gives Robert Jordan a hidden cameo in his own series by describing one of the Hero's as RJ was in real life. The grave is no bare to my call.

[maddface]

Personally I believe that Mat is a HotH but is the horn still bound to Mat? In one of the books, believe it was TDR but not sure, Siuan talks about the horn being bound to him until his death. Did his "death" in Rhuidean break the bond or whatever it was between him and the horn? Since the horn is locked away in the WT and only known to a few, no one else has had the opportunity to blow the horn and just get sound rather than Hawkwing and friends coming back.

 

As far as Hawkwing knowing Rand on sight and saying they have fought against each other before, I think this refers to previous lifetimes. As another poster stated we have no idea how long the wheel has been spinning and they could of been generals across the battle field from each other in the Negative Third age for all we know as readers.

 

On a side note, about there being so few HotH, the requirements must be high and from the sounds of it, the stories must be told throughout the ages. To give it a real life perspective, imagine who would meet those requirements from our own history. Alexander the Great, Caesar, Charlemagne, King David, until the relatively recent advent modern technology, very few "Heroes" have been passed down through the ages. I can very well see how there could be so few, not to mention (if we go by WoT metaphysics) some of those Heroes might spun out versions of previous HotH.

[Monte]

It would be awesome to see Jain there when the Horn blows! And since Mat is the one blowing it...it makes the most sense. Verin COULD make sense too, but now that you mention it, Jain seems almost a given! Heck, he coulda been taveren to begin with, we don't really know. As for Hopper, sadly, I agree that he's gone for good. Also, not sure if Perrin is going to be alive at that point to rejoice over seeing him, anyways. But then, as Magus Rune says, that could mean HE comes when the horn is blown. THAT would be a mindblowing ending, and seems almost like a spoiler...good add on, Magus.

[Majsju]

Personally I believe that Mat is a HotH but is the horn still bound to Mat? In one of the books, believe it was TDR but not sure, Siuan talks about the horn being bound to him until his death. Did his "death" in Rhuidean break the bond or whatever it was between him and the horn? Since the horn is locked away in the WT and only known to a few, no one else has had the opportunity to blow the horn and just get sound rather than Hawkwing and friends coming back.

 

As far as Hawkwing knowing Rand on sight and saying they have fought against each other before, I think this refers to previous lifetimes. As another poster stated we have no idea how long the wheel has been spinning and they could of been generals across the battle field from each other in the Negative Third age for all we know as readers.

 

On a side note, about there being so few HotH, the requirements must be high and from the sounds of it, the stories must be told throughout the ages. To give it a real life perspective, imagine who would meet those requirements from our own history. Alexander the Great, Caesar, Charlemagne, King David, until the relatively recent advent modern technology, very few "Heroes" have been passed down through the ages. I can very well see how there could be so few, not to mention (if we go by WoT metaphysics) some of those Heroes might spun out versions of previous HotH.

 

No, Mats "death" in Rhuidean did not sever the bond, since Mat did not die in Rhuidean.

[maddface]

 

No, Mats "death" in Rhuidean did not sever the bond, since Mat did not die in Rhuidean.

 

So he hasn't met the snake folks prophecy of to die and live again or however they put it. I thought that the hanging fulfilled that and Rand brought him back to life with his CPR or whatever. Maybe I'm just dumb but I thought that he actually was dead then but I could be recalling wrong.

[Majsju]

No, Mats "death" in Rhuidean did not sever the bond, since Mat did not die in Rhuidean.

 

So he hasn't met the snake folks prophecy of to die and live again or however they put it. I thought that the hanging fulfilled that and Rand brought him back to life with his CPR or whatever. Maybe I'm just dumb but I thought that he actually was dead then but I could be recalling wrong.

 

He met that prophecy in Caemlyn, when he was first killed by Rahvins lightning, and then brought back by Rand balefiring Rahvin.

As a rule, if a few moments of homemade cpr has you up and about like nothing happened, you were not quite dead.

[BareUpperLip79]

 

So he hasn't met the snake folks prophecy of to die and live again or however they put it. I thought that the hanging fulfilled that and Rand brought him back to life with his CPR or whatever. Maybe I'm just dumb but I thought that he actually was dead then but I could be recalling wrong.

 

 

Whoo-hoo-hoo, look who knows so much. It just so happens that your friend here is only MOSTLY dead. There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive. With all dead, well, with all dead there's usually only one thing you can do.

[capuga]

Whoo-hoo-hoo, look who knows so much. It just so happens that your friend here is only MOSTLY dead. There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive. With all dead, well, with all dead there's usually only one thing you can do.

 

Princess Bride quotes are always welcome.

[Mandro]

If Mat doesn't become a hero, I demand a refund on the money I paid for that horn!!

 

A network/reagen reference?

 

And I will bet 3/1 that Jain is a hero of the horn, if he wasn't present during the other sounding it wasn't because he wasn't already a hero of the horn, but rather that he was alive. why would ishy care about Jain if he wasn't fundamentaly an agelace based individual?

[OneOfTheBand]

I agree that Mat and Perrin should new New Heros, but come'on so should Morriane! She defeated two vastly more powerful Forsaken and *willingly* spent two years at the mercy of the Finn's to save Rand. If she was not already a Hero spun out she should be one now.

[Mats Spare Hat]

Had a thought about the Horn...Is it that the heros summoned are tied specifically to the horn, or that they're tied to the pattern, and what's special about the horn is that the horn is able to summon those heroes? We know that some folks, like Birgitte & friends spend their time between lives in TAR. We also know that by blowing the horn those heroes are summoned to the presumed aid of whoever sounds the right note.

 

When people talk about hoping so and so, if they die, is brought back as a hero of the horn...Would it be that they become tied to the horn itself, or that the pattern establishes that this person's important enough that he/she is going to hang around in TAR til the next happening of their rebirth?

 

I get the impression that eventually all souls, nearly(taking into account balefire/hopper deaths), are reborn in the wheel of time...So even if the pattern didn't deem you that important, you would still eventually be reborn, even if you didn't get to hang out in TAR in the meantime.

 

Say someone died, like Perrin, and for the sake of it let's say he doesn't go to TAR for whatever reason. Provided his death isn't of extraordinary circumstances, his soul's still going to be reborn in another life right? You just wouldn't be able to hang out in dreamland shooting the shit in the meantime?

 

...I don't think the horn is what's important beyond its literal function, of being able to summon those heroes that are tied to the pattern.

 

In other words if somehow the horn were bashed/destroyed/torn to bits/rendered useless, those heroes would still remain in TAR waiting to be reborn regardless.

 

 

Sorry, kind of a ramble

[Mandro]

we can track who was called when the horn was called at falme, but there is no reference to the horn being sounded before then that I can think of. That absent bit of info makes me wonder how everyone knows what the horn is, but not what the ring of tamyrlain is?

[DocBean]

I think you could argue that any of the main characters, and a lot of the supporting characters can be tied to the horn.

 

so the real question is: Who has died, and who will die in time to come back when the horn is blown?

 

I think Lan could very easily die and come back.

I think all the characters that people have mentioned could also be coming back. I'd love to see Verin and Noal.

 

I think Dark-Prophecy points to Perrin dying.

He's a natural in the Wolf Dream World, so I'd think his soul would move right in, and he's probably still able to get some work done.

 

it fits that he could be the one who has "known death" and possibly HE is the one who is "dead yet still lives"

 

 

Who else will die and be tied to the horn?

Will the Horn even be blown? Maybe it's lost forever, and won't play a role in the Last Battle.

[idiostock]

Not addressing much, but there was a point made back on page 2 or so about how Hawkwing says he's fought LTT countless times and with him countless others.

 

Fact: The Heroes live in T'A'R

Fact: The Portal Stone worlds exist

Fact(?): T'A'R reflects all worlds

 

I assumed that Hawkwing was referring to the infinite Portal Stone worlds.

[Hyronimus]

I don't think bringing back the heros will be the Horn's only purpose.

The fact that it can bring people from the world of dreams into 'reality' is a clue.

 

Somhow it effects the walls between worlds. I think it has more to do with those pre-channalling powers, Dreaming, Wolfbrothers,sniffing.

 

The bore itself must be like the gateways that are used to get to T'A'R.

 

Hmmm, sorry, not really going anywhere, but I just don't think the Hero's are the point.