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The Horn of Valere


Isgrimner
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So way back in The Great Hunt, Hawkwing says to Hurin after the Horn of Valere is sounded that sometimes new heros are added to their numbers.

 

Anybody think there could be a chance we get to see Noal aka Jain Farstrider, when next the Horn is sounded? Would his being touched by the Shadow at some point or dying in the Finnland make a difference? Granted we don't actually see him die but I think it is likely.

 

What about Hopper, could a Wolf be tied to the Horn? I doubt that but eh, maybe.

 

Maybe the Horn has already served its purpose and won't be sounded again. We know Mat plans to retrieve it but there are no guarantees.

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Sadly Darth i think your right about hopper as for the rest;

Jain's should be there after all Brigitte and Gaidal are tied to the horn and they both died in the ToG at least once and are still tied to it and i think we can all agree Jain's done plenty to earn his place next to them even aside from all his travels. Hell the ToG incident alone probably sorts out any bad karma he had for being touched by the shadow and all.

 

Verin. Damn straight shes gonna be a new hero. A lot of people would argue that shes done to much evil for the DO but really? Ask Brigitte if shes ever done anything nasty to people in her previous lives, pound to a penny shes done a fair bit besides the normal maiming and killing you would find on a battle field and what not. With out Verin there would be a hell of a lot of BA running around unheeded and we already know of what, four letters? One of which we know says "be warned big fu-flamming army hitting Caemlyn soon!" Granted this letter didn't work out so well but lets be honest people ship hatpins :biggrin: .

 

End verdit.

Jain -yes

Verin -yes

Hopper -no

 

Any more that could be added? Rands already tied to the horn i suppose. Perrin? Mat?

 

RAFO

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End verdit.

Jain -yes

Verin -yes

Hopper -no

 

Any more that could be added? Rands already tied to the horn i suppose. Perrin? Mat?

 

RAFO

 

I am sure Bela will eventually be a hero of the Horn of Valere.

Surely that horse will be the mount of some hero from the current age.

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I'll make the case for Mat becomming a Hero tied to the Horn. His resume:

 

1. His heroics in Ebou Dar led to the using of the Bowl of the Winds. Had the bowl of the winds not been blown, Randland would have starved to death a year ago, the population would have been decimated and unable to battle the shadowspawn armies. The Bowl of the Winds would have not been blown without Mat to fight off the gholum, and the gholum would have either killed or captured Elayne for certain, and probably Nyneave also. Certainly not in and of itself enough to tie him to the horn, but that's a significant bullet point on the hero resume.

 

2. He fought a gholam a total of 4 times and as good as killed (or better) it on the 4th time. There can't be that many people that faced a gholam and survived once, much less 4 times. Since there were only 6 gholum created, that's a pretty elite group to have dispatched a gholum that Mat is in. We don't know what happened to the other five gholums, for all we know Mat could be the only person ever to give a gholum a final defeat in hand to hand combat. That right there could alone be enough to tie a hero to the Horn.

 

3. The tower of Ghenji. Only one in a thousand who go in come out. I would imagine its significantly worse odds on going in and bringing out someone who's all ready been captured by the snakes and foxes. This is another pretty elite group Mat has joined. Maybe not enough to tie him to the Horn as a hero, but that's another pretty good resume point.

 

4. Married the Seanchen Empress. Yea, this is the weakest hero point on the resume, but he certainly did this with flair. Kidnapped her while rescuing Aes Sedai damane, carried her halfway across Altara, attacked and defeated her own forces etc and then she marries him after all that. Maybe not a true hero point on the resume, but at least some icing on the cake.

 

5. For crying out loud, he blew the horn, he's the hornsounder. And he's going to blow it again at the last battle. I would imagine that to count up all the people that have ever sounded the Horn of Valere for battle, you would not need all your fingers and toes.

 

I think Mat has done enough to qualify for membership in those that are tied to the Horn.

 

I also think Jain Farstrider is now tied to the horn, and when Mat blows it at the last battle, they're be a bit of a moment between him and Jain. Hopefully Olver will be there and there will be a heartwarming moment between Jain and Olver.

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Sadly Darth i think your right about hopper as for the rest;

Jain's should be there after all Brigitte and Gaidal are tied to the horn and they both died in the ToG at least once and are still tied to it and i think we can all agree Jain's done plenty to earn his place next to them even aside from all his travels. Hell the ToG incident alone probably sorts out any bad karma he had for being touched by the shadow and all.

 

Verin. Damn straight shes gonna be a new hero. A lot of people would argue that shes done to much evil for the DO but really? Ask Brigitte if shes ever done anything nasty to people in her previous lives, pound to a penny shes done a fair bit besides the normal maiming and killing you would find on a battle field and what not. With out Verin there would be a hell of a lot of BA running around unheeded and we already know of what, four letters? One of which we know says "be warned big fu-flamming army hitting Caemlyn soon!" Granted this letter didn't work out so well but lets be honest people ship hatpins :biggrin: .

 

End verdit.

Jain -yes

Verin -yes

Hopper -no

 

Any more that could be added? Rands already tied to the horn i suppose. Perrin? Mat?

 

RAFO

 

The problem with Verin becoming a Hero is that most of those tied to the Horn are combat/physical skills type people. Would Verin even be able to wield the Power when the Horn is called? If not, she wouldn't be able to help out much.

 

I think Jain is possible (50/50).

 

Others I think likely (besides Rand who's soul is already tied to the Horn) are: Mat, Perrin, Lan.

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So way back in The Great Hunt, Hawkwing says to Hurin after the Horn of Valere is sounded that sometimes new heros are added to their numbers.

 

Anybody think there could be a chance we get to see Noal aka Jain Farstrider, when next the Horn is sounded? Would his being touched by the Shadow at some point or dying in the Finnland make a difference? Granted we don't actually see him die but I think it is likely.

 

What about Hopper, could a Wolf be tied to the Horn? I doubt that but eh, maybe.

 

Maybe the Horn has already served its purpose and won't be sounded again. We know Mat plans to retrieve it but there are no guarantees.

 

I suspect that the Horn is no longer tied to Matt. While he thinks that he needs / plans to be the one to use it, I am not certain that will be the case.

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Sadly Darth i think your right about hopper as for the rest;

Jain's should be there after all Brigitte and Gaidal are tied to the horn and they both died in the ToG at least once and are still tied to it and i think we can all agree Jain's done plenty to earn his place next to them even aside from all his travels. Hell the ToG incident alone probably sorts out any bad karma he had for being touched by the shadow and all.

 

Verin. Damn straight shes gonna be a new hero. A lot of people would argue that shes done to much evil for the DO but really? Ask Brigitte if shes ever done anything nasty to people in her previous lives, pound to a penny shes done a fair bit besides the normal maiming and killing you would find on a battle field and what not. With out Verin there would be a hell of a lot of BA running around unheeded and we already know of what, four letters? One of which we know says "be warned big fu-flamming army hitting Caemlyn soon!" Granted this letter didn't work out so well but lets be honest people ship hatpins :biggrin: .

 

End verdit.

Jain -yes

Verin -yes

Hopper -no

 

Any more that could be added? Rands already tied to the horn i suppose. Perrin? Mat?

 

RAFO

 

The problem with Verin becoming a Hero is that most of those tied to the Horn are combat/physical skills type people. Would Verin even be able to wield the Power when the Horn is called? If not, she wouldn't be able to help out much.

 

I think Jain is possible (50/50).

 

Others I think likely (besides Rand who's soul is already tied to the Horn) are: Mat, Perrin, Lan.

 

See I used to think that too and still do for the most part. I mean the majority of the heroes would be warriors and such but in Crown of Swords when Mat remembers blowing the Horn in the Birgitte scene...he remembers a man named Paedrig...'the golden tongued peacemaker' which I equate him to being a Grey. So if a peacemaker can be a hero of the horn I don't see any problems with Verin being one :). Verin is like the hero of spies or something.

Edited by gambril
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When you think of the heroes of the horn they all have grand stories and adventure. I think Mat will definitely be a hero if he isn't one already. Just look at what people are saying about him in Caemlyn.

I loved that part where Guyban was asking him about the rumors and started mentioning all the Odin parallels.

 

and now he has added another. I am pretty sure that he gave his eye "to save the world" and likely what will save the world is knowledge that Moirene got about sealing the bore.

 

-cap

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See I used to think that too and still do for the most part. I mean the majority of the heroes would be warriors and such but in Crown of Swords when Mat remembers blowing the Horn in the Birgitte scene...he remembers a man named Paedrig...'the golden tongued peacemaker' which I equate him to being a Grey. So if a peacemaker can be a hero of the horn I don't see any problems with Verin being one :). Verin is like the hero of spies or something.

 

In Star Wars, Obi-Wan Kenobi was known as "The Negotiator" during the Clone Wars for his skill to negotiate solutions and avoid actual battles in this fashion. Doesn't mean the guy wasn't a super-badass warrior when he needed to kick ass, though. Maybe this Paedrig was similar? His nickname does sound similar to Obi-Wan's, IMO. A skilled negotiator, but a great warrior all the same.

 

Well, at any rate, I have a hard time picturing good, old, plump, bird-faced Verin Mathwin riding at full speed as a Hero of the Horn. I guess that must be it...heh heh

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See I used to think that too and still do for the most part. I mean the majority of the heroes would be warriors and such but in Crown of Swords when Mat remembers blowing the Horn in the Birgitte scene...he remembers a man named Paedrig...'the golden tongued peacemaker' which I equate him to being a Grey. So if a peacemaker can be a hero of the horn I don't see any problems with Verin being one :). Verin is like the hero of spies or something.

 

In Star Wars, Obi-Wan Kenobi was known as "The Negotiator" during the Clone Wars for his skill to negotiate solutions and avoid actual battles in this fashion. Doesn't mean the guy wasn't a super-badass warrior when he needed to kick ass, though. Maybe this Paedrig was similar? His nickname does sound similar to Obi-Wan's, IMO. A skilled negotiator, but a great warrior all the same.

 

Well, at any rate, I have a hard time picturing good, old, plump, bird-faced Verin Mathwin riding at full speed as a Hero of the Horn. I guess that must be it...heh heh

 

Well as Hero of the Horn the Pattern wouldn't spin Verin out for purposes of battle but rather for more nefarious deeds that required a...lets say more deft hand. Each Hero has their place right? Just sayin... :laugh: (Verin will always be a hero to me in her own way and my fondness over her wins out any other thoughts that she 'shouldn't' be a hero)

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I think that Tam should be a hero of the horn. He raised the dragon reborn, helped bring him back from the brink, was a blademaster, taught rand the fundamentals of controlling his channelling (without being able too) and fighting, he is very well respected by everyone who has met him and heard of him (I believe even the aiel do). Come on Tam is awesome, I wanna see a Lan Tam fight :D

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let me put forth an odd name... jaichim carridin. my reasoning, TGH in the darkfriend council, he sees the horn and hears its call, and he is pulled toward it, not just oh pretty colors, but literally compelled by the horn, i think in a past life he was a hero, and he just screwed up in this life.

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Well as Hero of the Horn the Pattern wouldn't spin Verin out for purposes of battle but rather for more nefarious deeds that required a...lets say more deft hand. Each Hero has their place right? Just sayin... :laugh: (Verin will always be a hero to me in her own way and my fondness over her wins out any other thoughts that she 'shouldn't' be a hero)

 

Somehow, I can see good old, sneaky Verin doing something like that lol...though I must admit that I never liked her personality, I respect her a ton for what she did. A true hero, doubtless. And to think Egwene had that example first hand and didn't learn spit from the woman ;-)

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The bigger flaw I've always had with the heroes of the horn is - Why the $##$ aren't any spun out now aside from Rand?.

During the War of the Power there was Brigitte and Gaidal (at least). Since the Breaking there's been Brigitte multiple times again.

 

If The Last Battle is so critical - and there's been one or two subtle clues through 13 books this might be a mildly important occurrence :biggrin: - why are NONE of them aside from Rand around?

 

Unless you subscribe to the theory the likes Thom, Moraine, Cadsuane, Nynaeve, Egwene or Elayne is a hero of the horn (Mat and Perrin are not or Hawkwing would have commented on in TGH). So why not? Yeah, I get for plot reasons Rand is surrounded by friends from home and assorted other people, and it's a great story. Except it makes the whole bit about the heroes been spun out when needed most bit a crock, if none other then Rand are during THE most critical time of the Third Age if not all Ages.

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The bigger flaw I've always had with the heroes of the horn is - Why the $##$ aren't any spun out now aside from Rand?.

During the War of the Power there was Brigitte and Gaidal (at least). Since the Breaking there's been Brigitte multiple times again.

 

If The Last Battle is so critical - and there's been one or two subtle clues through 13 books this might be a mildly important occurrence :biggrin: - why are NONE of them aside from Rand around?

 

Unless you subscribe to the theory the likes Thom, Moraine, Cadsuane, Nynaeve, Egwene or Elayne is a hero of the horn (Mat and Perrin are not or Hawkwing would have commented on in TGH). So why not? Yeah, I get for plot reasons Rand is surrounded by friends from home and assorted other people, and it's a great story. Except it makes the whole bit about the heroes been spun out when needed most bit a crock, if none other then Rand are during THE most critical time of the Third Age if not all Ages.

you are serious? What good is the horn for calling the heros of the ages, if all the heros are already manifest on the battlefield in weak mortal forms? these guys swept through falme like the army of the damned swept through the orcs in the third lotr movie, why would you want them to be mortal at the clutch moment?

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The bigger flaw I've always had with the heroes of the horn is - Why the $##$ aren't any spun out now aside from Rand?.

During the War of the Power there was Brigitte and Gaidal (at least). Since the Breaking there's been Brigitte multiple times again.

 

If The Last Battle is so critical - and there's been one or two subtle clues through 13 books this might be a mildly important occurrence :biggrin: - why are NONE of them aside from Rand around?

 

Unless you subscribe to the theory the likes Thom, Moraine, Cadsuane, Nynaeve, Egwene or Elayne is a hero of the horn (Mat and Perrin are not or Hawkwing would have commented on in TGH). So why not? Yeah, I get for plot reasons Rand is surrounded by friends from home and assorted other people, and it's a great story. Except it makes the whole bit about the heroes been spun out when needed most bit a crock, if none other then Rand are during THE most critical time of the Third Age if not all Ages.

you are serious? What good is the horn for calling the heros of the ages, if all the heros are already manifest on the battlefield in weak mortal forms? these guys swept through falme like the army of the damned swept through the orcs in the third lotr movie, why would you want them to be mortal at the clutch moment?

Not ALL, or even a majority, but with dozens of heroes surely there are a HANDFUL who would be appropriate to have spun out to support the DR in the Last Battle in the flesh? For a charge like at Falme or Minas Tirith, dead heroes are the best, but 65 heroes or 60 there isn't going to make much difference, but 5 heroes spun out, could surely have helped Rand more then enough to lose a handful called back from the dead.

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The bigger flaw I've always had with the heroes of the horn is - Why the $##$ aren't any spun out now aside from Rand?.

During the War of the Power there was Brigitte and Gaidal (at least). Since the Breaking there's been Brigitte multiple times again.

 

If The Last Battle is so critical - and there's been one or two subtle clues through 13 books this might be a mildly important occurrence :biggrin: - why are NONE of them aside from Rand around?

 

Unless you subscribe to the theory the likes Thom, Moraine, Cadsuane, Nynaeve, Egwene or Elayne is a hero of the horn (Mat and Perrin are not or Hawkwing would have commented on in TGH). So why not? Yeah, I get for plot reasons Rand is surrounded by friends from home and assorted other people, and it's a great story. Except it makes the whole bit about the heroes been spun out when needed most bit a crock, if none other then Rand are during THE most critical time of the Third Age if not all Ages.

you are serious? What good is the horn for calling the heros of the ages, if all the heros are already manifest on the battlefield in weak mortal forms? these guys swept through falme like the army of the damned swept through the orcs in the third lotr movie, why would you want them to be mortal at the clutch moment?

Not ALL, or even a majority, but with dozens of heroes surely there are a HANDFUL who would be appropriate to have spun out to support the DR in the Last Battle in the flesh? For a charge like at Falme or Minas Tirith, dead heroes are the best, but 65 heroes or 60 there isn't going to make much difference, but 5 heroes spun out, could surely have helped Rand more then enough to lose a handful called back from the dead.

isnt there at max a couple dozen heroes. I remember rand being surprised at how few in number they are.

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The bigger flaw I've always had with the heroes of the horn is - Why the $##$ aren't any spun out now aside from Rand?.

During the War of the Power there was Brigitte and Gaidal (at least). Since the Breaking there's been Brigitte multiple times again.

 

If The Last Battle is so critical - and there's been one or two subtle clues through 13 books this might be a mildly important occurrence :biggrin: - why are NONE of them aside from Rand around?

 

Unless you subscribe to the theory the likes Thom, Moraine, Cadsuane, Nynaeve, Egwene or Elayne is a hero of the horn (Mat and Perrin are not or Hawkwing would have commented on in TGH). So why not? Yeah, I get for plot reasons Rand is surrounded by friends from home and assorted other people, and it's a great story. Except it makes the whole bit about the heroes been spun out when needed most bit a crock, if none other then Rand are during THE most critical time of the Third Age if not all Ages.

you are serious? What good is the horn for calling the heros of the ages, if all the heros are already manifest on the battlefield in weak mortal forms? these guys swept through falme like the army of the damned swept through the orcs in the third lotr movie, why would you want them to be mortal at the clutch moment?

Not ALL, or even a majority, but with dozens of heroes surely there are a HANDFUL who would be appropriate to have spun out to support the DR in the Last Battle in the flesh? For a charge like at Falme or Minas Tirith, dead heroes are the best, but 65 heroes or 60 there isn't going to make much difference, but 5 heroes spun out, could surely have helped Rand more then enough to lose a handful called back from the dead.

isnt there at max a couple dozen heroes. I remember rand being surprised at how few in number they are.

a little over a hundred. rand was supprised he knew there would be only about a hundred. mat was shock there were so few.

Edited by draconian
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let me put forth an odd name... jaichim carridin. my reasoning, TGH in the darkfriend council, he sees the horn and hears its call, and he is pulled toward it, not just oh pretty colors, but literally compelled by the horn, i think in a past life he was a hero, and he just screwed up in this life.

 

 

Its not that far fetched that Darkfriends can be tied to the horn. I remember it being stated in the books that the Horn could also work for the Shadow.

 

We don't know the specifics of the origin of the Horn, or exactly what the criteria is to be bound to it. Still, I would kind of think Darkfriends tend to be too narcistic to do the kind of things needed to be tied to the Horn. If so I would think they would have to get tied to the Horn in a lifetime when they were not tied to the shadow. We know redemption is possible, ie Verin, Ingtar, and Jain. Plus there is the constant mantra that one can always return to the Light, no matter how long they've walked in the shadow. (paraphrase) I don't know that I would say Carridin is, only that I think the possibility is there that he could be.

 

In fact you may have to have multiple heroic lifetimes to be tied to the Horn. Thus the low number of Heros when they were called. For instance we know Birgitte has had more than one famous lifetime, but she was tied to the Horn under what most likely her most famous identity.

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you are serious? What good is the horn for calling the heros of the ages, if all the heros are already manifest on the battlefield in weak mortal forms? these guys swept through falme like the army of the damned swept through the orcs in the third lotr movie, why would you want them to be mortal at the clutch moment?

Not ALL, or even a majority, but with dozens of heroes surely there are a HANDFUL who would be appropriate to have spun out to support the DR in the Last Battle in the flesh? For a charge like at Falme or Minas Tirith, dead heroes are the best, but 65 heroes or 60 there isn't going to make much difference, but 5 heroes spun out, could surely have helped Rand more then enough to lose a handful called back from the dead.

 

Actually, I agree with the first quote. Except that the correct name for the army of the dead in LotR is the Oathbreakers, not the "army of the damned", of course. That sounds like something out of an Anne Rice novel or something heh heh...

 

The Dragon has plenty of help in the waking world of the living in the form of having two additional Ta'veren (in addition to his own Ta'veren pull) who are among the strongest Ta'veren ever and some of the mightiest female channelers ever (Nynaeve, Alivia) by his side.

 

I believe that one of the underlying messages in WoT is that every thread has its proper place in the Pattern and the place for the Heroes of the Horn is to ride when the thing is blown in the Last Battle, not to be reborn around the days of the Dragon Reborn to help him as living beings, who could certainly not be expected to inflict as much damage on the enemy as they can do dead.

 

Besides, the Heroes of the Horn, no matter how many or how few, are extremely valuable assets for whomever may blow the thing. In this sense, they're sort of neutral and not 100% by the Dragon's side. This is made quite clear in TGH, as Fain takes the Horn not only to prevent Rand from having it, but because the Heroes will answer to whomever makes the call. That means having them by your side is akin to having a very powerful weapon that, if/when used correctly, will represent a huge advantage for you (as it did for Rand and his allies at Falme).

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I've always thought that Siuan's claim that the Heroes would obey whoever sounded the Horn, darkfriend or otherwise, was a bunch of hooey. She can say it because she believes it, but how would she know? The Horn of Valere was hidden beneath a pool of untainted saidin created during the Breaking of the World, hundreds of years before the founding of the White Tower. Until Moiraine, no member of the 3rd Age Aes Sedai had even seen the Horn.

 

And frankly I find the idea kinda insulting to them (the heroes). That their minds and wills would be completly negated despite having thousands of lifetimes combined in one and that they could be forced to serve the whims of whatever random joe puffed on a musical instrument... well, I seriously doubt thats the case. Could you imagine Rand, sometime in the next Age, killing a bunch of Lightsiders because, say, a still-alive Moridin found the Horn and blew it? IMO, the horn opens a gate that allows them to touch the physical world for a time, but what they do once there is at their own discretion. If Fain had sounded the Horn of Valere, Hawkwing would have taken one look at him and then run him through with Justice.

Edited by AshaShan
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