The Horn of Valere

[Mats Spare Hat]

Kind of rinky-dink, but I always wondered if there'd be some kind of effect on Birgitte, considering the circumstance of how she came into the waking world, when the Horn's blown again. How about you folks?

[Darth Krewl]

I've always thought that Siuan's claim that the Heroes would obey whoever sounded the Horn, darkfriend or otherwise, was a bunch of hooey. She can say it because she believes it, but how would she know? The Horn of Valere was hidden beneath a pool of untainted saidin created during the Breaking of the World, hundreds of years before the founding of the White Tower. Until Moiraine, no member of the 3rd Age Aes Sedai had even seen the Horn.

 

Yeah, I've always had similar suspicions about the Horn being able to serve the Shadow myself, but either way, I came to the conclusion that the Shadow had to make absolutely positive that the Horn didn't reach the Dragon's hands (or those of his allies, at any rate) precisely because summoning the spirits of the Heroes must give your forces quite a boost.

 

And frankly I find the idea kinda insulting to them (the heroes). That their minds and wills would be completly negated despite having thousands of lifetimes combined in one and that they could be forced to serve the whims of whatever random joe puffed on a musical instrument... well, I seriously doubt thats the case. Could you imagine Rand, sometime in the next Age, killing a bunch of Lightsiders because, say, a still-alive Moridin found the Horn and blew it? IMO, the horn opens a gate that allows them to touch the physical world for a time, but what they do once there is at their own discretion. If Fain had sounded the Horn of Valere, Hawkwing would have taken one look at him and then run him through with Justice.

 

I hear you. But in that case, I think that just being forced to hang around Tel'aran'rhiod till summoned by the Horn and before their next incarnation, would be stifling enough for the Heroes. So, if you take that into consideration, knowing that anyone who blew the Horn could summon their services doesn't really seem all that hard to believe, me thinks. In that scenario, yes, I can imagine anyone killing just about anyone if that's what their souls are implied to do. Because in that case, that means their souls are bound to the will of the Horn, no matter what. Talk about "resting in peace", eh? heh heh...

[Sharaman]

I've always thought that Siuan's claim that the Heroes would obey whoever sounded the Horn, darkfriend or otherwise, was a bunch of hooey. She can say it because she believes it, but how would she know? The Horn of Valere was hidden beneath a pool of untainted saidin created during the Breaking of the World, hundreds of years before the founding of the White Tower. Until Moiraine, no member of the 3rd Age Aes Sedai had even seen the Horn.

 

And frankly I find the idea kinda insulting to them (the heroes). That their minds and wills would be completly negated despite having thousands of lifetimes combined in one and that they could be forced to serve the whims of whatever random joe puffed on a musical instrument... well, I seriously doubt thats the case. Could you imagine Rand, sometime in the next Age, killing a bunch of Lightsiders because, say, a still-alive Moridin found the Horn and blew it? IMO, the horn opens a gate that allows them to touch the physical world for a time, but what they do once there is at their own discretion. If Fain had sounded the Horn of Valere, Hawkwing would have taken one look at him and then run him through with Justice.

Hawkwing states he's fought against Lews Therin as well as for him.

[Dysaster]

the heroes of the horn HAVE to follow the Banner & Dragon, even if a darkfriend HAD blown the horn, if Rand was there AND he had the banner...the heroes of the horn would be fighting on rand's side

 

page 621 from the great hunt:

 

"the patters weaves itself around our necks like halters," artur hawkwing said. You are here. The Banner is here. The Weave of this moment is set. we have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon."

 

rand matt and perrin ARE heroes of the horn spun out imo- which is why artur has fought for and against rand. however, with the Banner & rand = heroes on whichever side rand is.

[Durinax]

the heroes of the horn HAVE to follow the Banner & Dragon, even if a darkfriend HAD blown the horn, if Rand was there AND he had the banner...the heroes of the horn would be fighting on rand's side

 

page 621 from the great hunt:

 

"the patters weaves itself around our necks like halters," artur hawkwing said. You are here. The Banner is here. The Weave of this moment is set. we have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon."

 

rand matt and perrin ARE heroes of the horn spun out imo- which is why artur has fought for and against rand. however, with the Banner & rand = heroes on whichever side rand is.

if mat and perrin where heroes, Artur hawkwing woudl have identified them, instead of giving them the generic names of hornsounder and bannerman

[Alachar]

I was wondering if a hero of the horn could really die when the horn was blown. It seems to me they can't die in the real world. Because of their connection with the Wheel of Time, that they stay in Tel'aran'rhiod is it only that they can die there, or that when the horn blewn the same happened with them as Birgitte. I don't know.

 

A next question then, where did the heroes of the horn go after the battle with the Seanchan?

[Durinax]

I was wondering if a hero of the horn could really die when the horn was blown. It seems to me they can't die in the real world. Because of their connection with the Wheel of Time, that they stay in Tel'aran'rhiod is it only that they can die there, or that when the horn blewn the same happened with them as Birgitte. I don't know.

 

A next question then, where did the heroes of the horn go after the battle with the Seanchan?

they went back to tar

[Lupy]

Mat IS a hero of the horn! The memories he has are from past lives. Hawkwing didn't ignore him at Falme, he acknowledged him as the horn blower. It seems likely to me that the Heroes in T'A'R' can't communicate with their comrades out in the world.

 

EDIT: As for Jain being a hero, it seems reasonable to me that he is, if he wasn't already. He certainly lead a heroic life.

[Red Hand Man]

the heroes of the horn HAVE to follow the Banner & Dragon, even if a darkfriend HAD blown the horn, if Rand was there AND he had the banner...the heroes of the horn would be fighting on rand's side

 

page 621 from the great hunt:

 

"the patters weaves itself around our necks like halters," artur hawkwing said. You are here. The Banner is here. The Weave of this moment is set. we have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon."

 

rand matt and perrin ARE heroes of the horn spun out imo- which is why artur has fought for and against rand. however, with the Banner & rand = heroes on whichever side rand is.

 

A reason why Hawkwing would have fought against Rand is that Rand has gone to the Shadow in previous lives right? Or at least, the odds of it happening aren't nil (all we have are Ishydin's statements afaik). Therefore the other heroes around him (whether they're tied to the horn or not is irrelevant, they are heroes) whoever they have been in past lives have fought against him when he has gone to the Shadow.

[Durinax]

Mat IS a hero of the horn! The memories he has are from past lives. Hawkwing didn't ignore him at Falme, he acknowledged him as the horn blower. It seems likely to me that the Heroes in T'A'R' can't communicate with their comrades out in the world.

 

EDIT: As for Jain being a hero, it seems reasonable to me that he is, if he wasn't already. He certainly lead a heroic life.

I completely disagree with most of this, IMO mat is not a hero of the horn, although he still has potential to join them.

 

as for the heroes in tar not talking to spun out heroes, it is against the prescipts or whatever bridgette mentions and gets in a fight with gaidal over. so that they wont influence the flow of the pattern.

[capuga]

Mat IS a hero of the horn! The memories he has are from past lives. Hawkwing didn't ignore him at Falme, he acknowledged him as the horn blower. It seems likely to me that the Heroes in T'A'R' can't communicate with their comrades out in the world.

 

EDIT: As for Jain being a hero, it seems reasonable to me that he is, if he wasn't already. He certainly lead a heroic life.

I completely disagree with most of this, IMO mat is not a hero of the horn, although he still has potential to join them.

 

as for the heroes in tar not talking to spun out heroes, it is against the prescipts or whatever bridgette mentions and gets in a fight with gaidal over. so that they wont influence the flow of the pattern.

 

Plus the memories that Mat has are not from his past lives. This was confirmed by RJ but we don't really need him to since we see in the books that he has memories from different men at the same points in time/history.

[WMTom]

As far as Rand and Hawkwing fighting against each other, I would like to use a modern example. Take Irwin Rommel and George Patton. Both display qualities of heroes. They fought against each other in North Africa. I do not see the man, Rommel, as evil though the people he fought for were.

 

Mat, Perrin and Lan are already associated with the horn in my opinion, Who ever sounds the Horn is tied to it, suggesting Mat has sounded the horn before, Hawkwing addresses him as hornsounder. Perrin is addressed as the bannerman, later Brigette says something about a Bannerman's courage. I agree with the comment about Hawkwing not wanting to "out" other heroes of the Horn. Rand was already fortold, so there was no danger in calling him out. Lan is too much a super fighter to not be.

 

Egwene: Reunited the White Tower, bravery, putting the wellfare of the world before herself and her friends (a noble ideal), Leadership (seems a common trait among the heroes).

Gawyn: (I know I am going to get flamed on this one) Potentially permanently tied to Egwene like Brigette / Gaidal, great swords man, does reflect noble characteristics once his head is clear, will continually play second fiddle to Egwene.

Galad: Leadership, Charisma, noble in actions / deeds, commands respect of others through the power of himself.

Verin: Willing to sacrifice her immortal soul for the greater good.

 

I thought about Elayne, she does show lions courage at times but really, can one be tied to the horn for taking a bath?

[Dakota]

I always figured that Rand and Hawkwing fighting against each other could have meant meeting on other sides of some battlefield in previous lives, ie Hawkwing's previous life being that of a general and Rand's being that of the king on the other side of the battlefield, something like that.

 

Rand is the Dragon Reborn, yes, but is it possible that he's been reborn other times not as the dragon, and lived lives at some point other than the end of each age?

[Rcurran]

As far as Rand and Hawkwing fighting against each other, I would like to use a modern example. Take Irwin Rommel and George Patton. Both display qualities of heroes. They fought against each other in North Africa. I do not see the man, Rommel, as evil though the people he fought for were.

 

He knew what was going on and he was evil. You can admire the man's ability to use superior tanks to bully people in north africa but don't start thinking he wasn't evil. Also, he was not some hero general he made many mistakes.

 

All it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to stand by and do nothing, or better still, become a fricken top dog in the bloody Nazi army.... Jeeepers.

[Mav]

Most likely plenty of heroes have been spun out to aid the Dragon in his time.

It is not because we didn't gain confirmation that we can't determine them as heroes, his friends have all done heroic deeds.

 

In addition, there are 2 heroes that are brother and sister that should spin out at the end of an age lace, I'm betting my money on Elayne her children here...

 

And I believe Arthur recognized Matt at Thomas Head.

[The falling Gholam]

I don't think Hawkwing would like Verin there considering the way he feels about Aes Sedai.. But you never know she might turn him around

[Charles_Darwin]

What always struck me as odd is this: There are only a few 10s or 100s heroes tied to the horn.

But since the Wheel turns and turns, and may have turned infinite times before this Age came to pass, there should be at least millions of the Horn, if not infinite. So why only so few?

Are there only these heroes, and they keep being recycled by the Horn/TAR? Logic would seem that there will be added new heroes each Age. Even if it's only 1 each Age, the wheel has turned so many times that there should have been millions of Heroes.

 

Is this Jordan giving us an indication of how many times the wheel has turned so far? Or an oversight on his side? (which would be odd coming from a Physicist)

 

The other option would be: people getting removed from their ties to the Horn. Sort of like a hit-chart: sorry mate, you got kicked out of the 100 most heroic list this year, no Horn for you..

[AshaShan]

What always struck me as odd is this: There are only a few 10s or 100s heroes tied to the horn.

But since the Wheel turns and turns, and may have turned infinite times before this Age came to pass, there should be at least millions of the Horn, if not infinite. So why only so few?

Are there only these heroes, and they keep being recycled by the Horn/TAR? Logic would seem that there will be added new heroes each Age. Even if it's only 1 each Age, the wheel has turned so many times that there should have been millions of Heroes.

 

Is this Jordan giving us an indication of how many times the wheel has turned so far? Or an oversight on his side? (which would be odd coming from a Physicist)

 

The other option would be: people getting removed from their ties to the Horn. Sort of like a hit-chart: sorry mate, you got kicked out of the 100 most heroic list this year, no Horn for you..

 

 

The criteria for getting tied to the Horn must be a hell of alot more demandinig than fighting and dying heroically. Those numbers suggest only a one in a billion chance. Verin and Ingtar wont qualify, and I doubt anyone short of, maybe, Mat in the current Age makes the cut.

[RedVanilla]

I'm still wondering what happens to Birgitte once Mat blows the Horn again. Especially now that she is bonded to Elayne...everything gets more complicated.

[Orderofolde]

When you think of the heroes of the horn they all have grand stories and adventure. I think Mat will definitely be a hero if he isn't one already. Just look at what people are saying about him in Caemlyn.

I loved that part where Guyban was asking him about the rumors and started mentioning all the Odin parallels.

 

and now he has added another. I am pretty sure that he gave his eye "to save the world" and likely what will save the world is knowledge that Moirene got about sealing the bore.

 

-cap

Also don't forget that the Heroes of the Horn have amplified skills/powers. Birgitte and her silver bow and silver arrows that set the ships aflame at Falme, the others. Sort of like making each worth a 100 men in battle.

[BareUpperLip79]

The bigger flaw I've always had with the heroes of the horn is - Why the $##$ aren't any spun out now aside from Rand?.

During the War of the Power there was Brigitte and Gaidal (at least). Since the Breaking there's been Brigitte multiple times again.

 

If The Last Battle is so critical - and there's been one or two subtle clues through 13 books this might be a mildly important occurrence - why are NONE of them aside from Rand around?

 

Unless you subscribe to the theory the likes Thom, Moraine, Cadsuane, Nynaeve, Egwene or Elayne is a hero of the horn (Mat and Perrin are not or Hawkwing would have commented on in TGH). So why not? Yeah, I get for plot reasons Rand is surrounded by friends from home and assorted other people, and it's a great story. Except it makes the whole bit about the heroes been spun out when needed most bit a crock, if none other then Rand are during THE most critical time of the Third Age if not all Ages.

you are serious? What good is the horn for calling the heros of the ages, if all the heros are already manifest on the battlefield in weak mortal forms? these guys swept through falme like the army of the damned swept through the orcs in the third lotr movie, why would you want them to be mortal at the clutch moment?

Not ALL, or even a majority, but with dozens of heroes surely there are a HANDFUL who would be appropriate to have spun out to support the DR in the Last Battle in the flesh? For a charge like at Falme or Minas Tirith, dead heroes are the best, but 65 heroes or 60 there isn't going to make much difference, but 5 heroes spun out, could surely have helped Rand more then enough to lose a handful called back from the dead.

 

I totally agree ajfurst. If what we're told about the Heroes is true, then there surely there should be living, spun-out heroes walking around in addition to Rand. Otherwise what's the point of them?

I don't accept Gary's suggestion that the point of them is to respond to the Horn and kick butt at the appropriate moment. The reason I disagree with Gary is because of the nature of the Heroes' battle at Falme. They have super god-like powers and their victory or defeat had nothing to do with how many they were. So if several Heroes were currently spun out into life it would make no difference to the battle at Falme and (I suspect) to any other Horn-induced battles.

So a Hero is tied to the Horn in order to be spun out and effect the world as a living hero.

 

I think, like ajfurst, that the pattern would spin out Heroes in the lead up to the last battle. At least a dozen. Which implies that anyone doing cool heroic things in the stories could well be a HotH. All of the Two Rivers crew, the Andor siblings, Moiraine, Thom, Lan, Verin (to name just a few) could be HotH. Mat most of all.

 

 

 

The criteria for getting tied to the Horn must be a hell of alot more demandinig than fighting and dying heroically. Those numbers suggest only a one in a billion chance. Verin and Ingtar wont qualify, and I doubt anyone short of, maybe, Mat in the current Age makes the cut.

 

 

This doesn't preclude any of our favourite characters from being already tied to the Horn. Maybe they satisfied the demanding criteria in a dim and distant past life. There's nothing to say that Heroes need to re-earn their tie to the Horn in every life. (In fact Hawkwing says otherwise to Hurin at Falme).

 

 

 

if mat and perrin where heroes, Artur hawkwing woudl have identified them, instead of giving them the generic names of hornsounder and bannerman

 

 

As for this.. why do people claim to know how Artur Hawkwing would speak? I see no compelling reason to believe that Hawkwing should have or would have called Mat and Perrin by name. He was being awfully poetic on that day.. and Trumpeter and Bannerman fit right in with that.

Aside from there being no specific reason to use their names, maybe there was a specific reason not to use their names. That's all just speculation though.

 

For me, that argument that the pattern needs lots of heroes right about now is way more compelling than the argument that Hawkwing should have said:

 

'Sup Mat. You look better with two eyes. 'Sup Perrin. You sure as the Pit of Doom look better with no beard.

 

 

 

What do the smart people think?

[Annia]

The bigger flaw I've always had with the heroes of the horn is - Why the $##$ aren't any spun out now aside from Rand?.

During the War of the Power there was Brigitte and Gaidal (at least). Since the Breaking there's been Brigitte multiple times again.

 

If The Last Battle is so critical - and there's been one or two subtle clues through 13 books this might be a mildly important occurrence - why are NONE of them aside from Rand around?

 

Unless you subscribe to the theory the likes Thom, Moraine, Cadsuane, Nynaeve, Egwene or Elayne is a hero of the horn (Mat and Perrin are not or Hawkwing would have commented on in TGH). So why not? Yeah, I get for plot reasons Rand is surrounded by friends from home and assorted other people, and it's a great story. Except it makes the whole bit about the heroes been spun out when needed most bit a crock, if none other then Rand are during THE most critical time of the Third Age if not all Ages.

you are serious? What good is the horn for calling the heros of the ages, if all the heros are already manifest on the battlefield in weak mortal forms? these guys swept through falme like the army of the damned swept through the orcs in the third lotr movie, why would you want them to be mortal at the clutch moment?

Not ALL, or even a majority, but with dozens of heroes surely there are a HANDFUL who would be appropriate to have spun out to support the DR in the Last Battle in the flesh? For a charge like at Falme or Minas Tirith, dead heroes are the best, but 65 heroes or 60 there isn't going to make much difference, but 5 heroes spun out, could surely have helped Rand more then enough to lose a handful called back from the dead.

isnt there at max a couple dozen heroes. I remember rand being surprised at how few in number they are.

a little over a hundred. rand was supprised he knew there would be only about a hundred. mat was shock there were so few.

 

It is completely possible that a few of them were spun out before Mat blew the horn. They would have had to be to be old enough to be of any use in the Last Battle. But I agree that the Heros are much more useful in Tel'aran'rhiod were they can be summoned from with the Horn.

[Fel]

The bigger flaw I've always had with the heroes of the horn is - Why the $##$ aren't any spun out now aside from Rand?.

During the War of the Power there was Brigitte and Gaidal (at least). Since the Breaking there's been Brigitte multiple times again.

 

If The Last Battle is so critical - and there's been one or two subtle clues through 13 books this might be a mildly important occurrence - why are NONE of them aside from Rand around?

 

Unless you subscribe to the theory the likes Thom, Moraine, Cadsuane, Nynaeve, Egwene or Elayne is a hero of the horn (Mat and Perrin are not or Hawkwing would have commented on in TGH). So why not? Yeah, I get for plot reasons Rand is surrounded by friends from home and assorted other people, and it's a great story. Except it makes the whole bit about the heroes been spun out when needed most bit a crock, if none other then Rand are during THE most critical time of the Third Age if not all Ages.

you are serious? What good is the horn for calling the heros of the ages, if all the heros are already manifest on the battlefield in weak mortal forms? these guys swept through falme like the army of the damned swept through the orcs in the third lotr movie, why would you want them to be mortal at the clutch moment?

Not ALL, or even a majority, but with dozens of heroes surely there are a HANDFUL who would be appropriate to have spun out to support the DR in the Last Battle in the flesh? For a charge like at Falme or Minas Tirith, dead heroes are the best, but 65 heroes or 60 there isn't going to make much difference, but 5 heroes spun out, could surely have helped Rand more then enough to lose a handful called back from the dead.

 

I totally agree ajfurst. If what we're told about the Heroes is true, then there surely there should be living, spun-out heroes walking around in addition to Rand. Otherwise what's the point of them?

I don't accept Gary's suggestion that the point of them is to respond to the Horn and kick butt at the appropriate moment. The reason I disagree with Gary is because of the nature of the Heroes' battle at Falme. They have super god-like powers and their victory or defeat had nothing to do with how many they were. So if several Heroes were currently spun out into life it would make no difference to the battle at Falme and (I suspect) to any other Horn-induced battles.

So a Hero is tied to the Horn in order to be spun out and effect the world as a living hero.

 

I think, like ajfurst, that the pattern would spin out Heroes in the lead up to the last battle. At least a dozen. Which implies that anyone doing cool heroic things in the stories could well be a HotH. All of the Two Rivers crew, the Andor siblings, Moiraine, Thom, Lan, Verin (to name just a few) could be HotH. Mat most of all.

 

 

 

The criteria for getting tied to the Horn must be a hell of alot more demandinig than fighting and dying heroically. Those numbers suggest only a one in a billion chance. Verin and Ingtar wont qualify, and I doubt anyone short of, maybe, Mat in the current Age makes the cut.

 

 

This doesn't preclude any of our favourite characters from being already tied to the Horn. Maybe they satisfied the demanding criteria in a dim and distant past life. There's nothing to say that Heroes need to re-earn their tie to the Horn in every life. (In fact Hawkwing says otherwise to Hurin at Falme).

 

 

 

if mat and perrin where heroes, Artur hawkwing woudl have identified them, instead of giving them the generic names of hornsounder and bannerman

 

 

As for this.. why do people claim to know how Artur Hawkwing would speak? I see no compelling reason to believe that Hawkwing should have or would have called Mat and Perrin by name. He was being awfully poetic on that day.. and Trumpeter and Bannerman fit right in with that.

Aside from there being no specific reason to use their names, maybe there was a specific reason not to use their names. That's all just speculation though.

 

For me, that argument that the pattern needs lots of heroes right about now is way more compelling than the argument that Hawkwing should have said:

 

'Sup Mat. You look better with two eyes. 'Sup Perrin. You sure as the Pit of Doom look better with no beard.

 

 

 

What do the smart people think?

One more point...why do you assume that Hawkwing would know what other heroes look like once htey were spun out? The heroes don't keep the same physical characteristics. You can say that he knew the Dragon, but you could argue that the Dragon is a special case.

[Cutlass]

The bigger flaw I've always had with the heroes of the horn is - Why the $##$ aren't any spun out now aside from Rand?.

During the War of the Power there was Brigitte and Gaidal (at least). Since the Breaking there's been Brigitte multiple times again.

 

If The Last Battle is so critical - and there's been one or two subtle clues through 13 books this might be a mildly important occurrence - why are NONE of them aside from Rand around?

 

Unless you subscribe to the theory the likes Thom, Moraine, Cadsuane, Nynaeve, Egwene or Elayne is a hero of the horn (Mat and Perrin are not or Hawkwing would have commented on in TGH). So why not? Yeah, I get for plot reasons Rand is surrounded by friends from home and assorted other people, and it's a great story. Except it makes the whole bit about the heroes been spun out when needed most bit a crock, if none other then Rand are during THE most critical time of the Third Age if not all Ages.

you are serious? What good is the horn for calling the heros of the ages, if all the heros are already manifest on the battlefield in weak mortal forms? these guys swept through falme like the army of the damned swept through the orcs in the third lotr movie, why would you want them to be mortal at the clutch moment?

Not ALL, or even a majority, but with dozens of heroes surely there are a HANDFUL who would be appropriate to have spun out to support the DR in the Last Battle in the flesh? For a charge like at Falme or Minas Tirith, dead heroes are the best, but 65 heroes or 60 there isn't going to make much difference, but 5 heroes spun out, could surely have helped Rand more then enough to lose a handful called back from the dead.

 

 

Maybe there is a "Hero Cap" on the pattern - and with Rand out and a few other keys... (Jain, Verrin, Lan, Tam????) there is no more room for them in the currnet age for them. Remember that Brigite said she never knew she was a hero until after she died - there seems to be all kinds of heroing going on in Randland - people just doing what they feel is right. could be a revolving system with the Horn too - one is spun in one is spun out, I doubt if we'll ever get a real answer but that's my theory.

[Tollieman]

True. As far as I know, we DON'T know exactly how many heroes of the horn there are. It could easily be 115 and as some have said, a few 'live' characters are actually those HOTH that have been spun out.

 

Can you imagine Lan dying (as possibly foretold) before the Last Battle, and appearing when the horn is sounded. Nyn would have a fit!