Caemlyn in the Epilogue. Poll.

[DrK]

Hello all.

 

I'd blame Elayne (and not just because she rivals Faile for most annoying character of the entire series and indeed every book ever written).

 

She's just been warned about an attack on the city from her Black Ajah chat and presumably when she entered Caemlyn she should have asked why there was lots of guards on the Waygate? And then one would hope actually replace them. Not to emntion her over inflated sense of self-worth did see her send away the Aiel and the Legion of the Dragon rather than using them to secure the succession with minimal disruption and loss of life.

 

Rand isn't at fault here. He's not destroyed them as he still wants to cleanse and fix the ways like he's done to the source.

[Mr Ares]

I was really beginning to think that Elayne was going to be a person to admire about half way through this book, her character development was great but this was RUBBISH Elayne! How could you get a report from a member of the Black Ajah saying your city was going to be invaded and not done anything about it.

She didn't. She got a warning her country was to be invaded, and moved troops to the borders to protect it. Warning of a threat and taking action against that threat seems wholly reasonable. If you're going to hate her, do so for a reason that's actually in the books.

 

Egwene is 90% to blame here. If she weren't so foolish in trying to gather armies to stop Rand being the 2-faced Aes Sedai she is, then Caemlyn would've had a fighting force.

So Egwene is to blame for trying to stop Rand unleashing an evil, universe-destroying God on Creation.

The other 10% falls to Elayne, while the BA she interrogated mentioned the invasion to her, KNOWING that there was going to be a Darkfriend uprising - at the least - in Andor she went off with her entire army anyway to go to Egwene's foolish thing to stop Rand breaking the seals.

Except that's not true, is it? We know some of her military strength, at the very least, was left behind (Talmanes and the Band). We know she increased border defences to guard against invasion, and have no reason at all to think she then stripped the border.

 

Ultimately, I blame Verin. Not because she was the darkfriend. But because she allowed Mat so much time to not read the note. 30 days was way to long, she had to of known that they would be there within 30 days. Traveling the ways speeds things up a ton, and don't trollocs hate going into the ways?

It has been suggested that Verin hoped the Band would still be in Caemlyn - the wait was a contingency, in case Mat wasn't overcome with curiosity, as well as an inducement into opening the letter. Of course, it took longer than 30 days.

 

I'd blame Elayne.

 

She's just been warned about an attack on the city from her Black Ajah chat and presumably when she entered Caemlyn she should have asked why there was lots of guards on the Waygate? And then one would hope actually replace them. Not to emntion her over inflated sense of self-worth did see her send away the Aiel and the Legion of the Dragon rather than using them to secure the succession with minimal disruption and loss of life.

So she is warned that Andor (not Caemlyn, Andor) is threatened with invasion, she does not, so far as we know, do anything to lessen the protection on the Waygate, which everyone thinks is secure, and she increases the protection on her borders to guard against the threatened invasion and it is still her fault? As for securing the succession in the way you suggest, that would have established her as a weak puppet ruler, which could well have led to problems further down the line. She needed to win Andor on her own merits, not be given it by Rand. She did so. One cannot fault her for that, even if one does not like her, or wished that plotline took up less screen time.

[Viperswhip]

Oh wait, Camelyn is Fain's fault for turning the Black Wind into something that follows Rand around. Before he did that it was impossible to move large amounts of trollocs through the Ways.

[Goramier]

I blame it entirely on Olver. He WAS in the area after all. He SHOULD have opened that letter much sooner. He SHOULD have played into his role as a kid and just opened it and then this would've been prevented. It is clearly his fault. Not Elaynes. She can take no blame for it. She wasn't really warned to any degree one could put any real account into. She didn't know of the waygate that led directly into her city. She was told it was secure. The fact that those in her own dungeon had managed to plot and escape is of no consequence. She put her soldiers exactly where they needed to be...away from the city. She had to protect all the lands that were dying and had no food after all, not to mention all the people who became transient. Protecting the city itself...blah..any reasonable person would have potentially moved out the soldiers and left it to be protected by mercenaries and the Band who were staying outside the city. Very reasonable I say. She is the hero here.

 

It is all Olvers fault. He should have opened that letter and acted much sooner. Clearly its his fault. Regardless of who owns the responsiblity for their own city they are the Queen of, it can only be blamed on Olver.

 

Verin is only partially to blame. After all, she was JUST involved in an extremely complicated plot that involved infultrating the DF's and learning of their secrets and uncovering who belonged to them. No excuse though really. We don't get enough info to know what else was going on around her character and such but again no real excuse. She is clearly partially at least to blame since she could have swooped in with her Aes Sedai powers and told them to destroy the waygate. It may have tipped of the DF's would could have worked to undermine all she had done, it could have simply moved the attack elsewhere, not preventing any loss of life but simply killing different people, and she may not even been believed especially if questions were asked as to how she knew. But avass, all that is really just nonsense one can easily gloss over since she is clearly at fault for not having done more.

 

In the end though it is all Olvers fault. He was in the area after all!

[waffle]

I blame it entirely on Olver

...

In the end though it is all Olvers fault. He was in the area after all!

 

I agree.

 

Olver is not heading into the city with his knife to fight trollocs, but to murder babies. And perhaps prepare a gourmet meal out of them for Trollocs.

[Haran]

I'd blame Verin, but it's still Elaynes responsibility.

 

Her capital is under attack and afaik all that is left to defend it is a bunch of mercs. Mercs she ordered to camp way outside the city. It doesn’t matter that she was warned or not, her city is burning and she and her army is not there.

[Goramier]

Lets recreate this scene in a different way.

 

Lets pretend that:

 

1. There is a person (Verin) who goes under cover as an Al Qaeda operative. They learn all kinds of important info. We don't know much about them other then that at some point, this person sent Mexico a letter. That letter had stipulations on it that said Mexico could open it in 10 days and have to do something else, like for example, it would have to mobilize its military. Or Mexico could wait 30 days, and disregard that letter. Mexico knows enough of this person to know they are powerful but not enough to know whether to really trust them or not and Mexico has had lots of reasons to avoid this person in the past. In fact, Mexico has made it virtually a life mantra to avoid this person and their entanglements. So they choose to wait thirty days.

 

2. In the meantime, the President (Elayne) of the US goes to see a captured Al Qaeda operative. This operative informs the President that an attack on the US is immenent. The President then, knowing there is a war in Afhganistan, sends (what we can assume) is most or all of the US troops over to Afhganistan. This is also not counting the fact that the President knows there is a portal right smack dab in the middle of the US that Al Qaeda can use to travel into the US but trusts blindly that it is safe and secure, even though, in the last couple days, enemies held in a safe and secure prison found a way out. So the President mobilizes the troops and send them to Afghanistan.

 

3. Then we have Mexico itself (Matt). They may open the letter or not. They have a hisory of not trusting the under cover person and then decided, in the spirit of avoiding any entanglements with that person, not to open the letter. So they don't. They also have no responsibility for the US military or its protection other then just being a friendly ally/neighbor at its border who will gladly help out when it can but again, has no duty to the US.

 

4. The attack happens. As it were, it appears that the portal had in fact been used and it appears the President had sent all the troops away except some mercenaries who only care about gold and are in fact, outside the US borders. The attack begins at the portal and within the US.

 

 

- With that, who is to blame?

 

It is clear as day who would be blamed. The President would be blamed and that is that.

[Charlz Guybon]

Verin never once stated it was important in her conversation with Mat. if anything, when she backed down, she was like, "fine, you can read it if you want." She should have said, "In ten days, you need to read this letter. Its extremely important." And Mat probably would have done so. But come on, put yourself in Mats shoes. Would you want to get caught up in yet another potential Aes Sedai plot when you have already have a billion things to do? Especially when said Aes Sedai never stresses the importance of the letter in the first place. Verin was wrong for not putting it in Elaynes hands, or Cadsuane,s or anyones for that matter. She could easily have Traveled to Andor, left the letter for Elayne to open in ten days, and left. Done. And being less suspicious in general, Elayne probably would have opened it.

 

Although, it would have looked better for Mat if Elayne had mentioned to him that Verin was a darkfriend after Egwene told her. Then he would definetly not open it, and we wouldnt be having this discussion.

 

I just think alot of people like to think of Veirn as infallible, when Mat once again proves time and time again how hard he is to read and judge.

Egwene never told Elayne or Nynaeve about the purge and which sisters were Black Ajah. Just as she was about to they were interrupted and that conversation never resumed.

[Plato]

I blame everyone involved.

 

I blame Mat. He has no reason NOT to trust Verin.

 

I blame Verin. She could have at least dispelled some of his fears of "Aes Sedai hooks in him" and told him what it wasn't. She could have made it a week instead of a month, since she admitted herself, she only needed a few days to see if she killed herself or not.

 

I blame Elayne. Could have left a few troops behind?

 

I blame Rand. Didn't get em all did ya there?

 

I blame the Ogier. Why the heck did you make those things in the Age of Legends when Traveling clearly made is obsolete. (not too mention flying machines, skimming, those stones that teleport people...)

 

I blame Melli Craeb. I don't know who you are, but you wreak of guilt! I carve a dragon fang on your door. I stab you in the name of the light!!!

[Charlz Guybon]

In the end I think most agree it's Elaynes fault. To blame Verin..yeah perhaps she made a mistake on her part but that end of it is murky at best. We know to little about that part of it. It clearly wasn't Matt's fault. It rested on Elayne. When the next book comes, we shall see just how bad and how much, her blunder has cost the good forces of Randland.

 

"Her blunder"? Come on, what are you suggesting she should have done?

 

Destroy the waygate she thought secure and guarded?

Destroying the bridge is not how you defend yourself during a war. You guard it, destroy it as a last resort.

They've already experienced problems with traveling (Perin's army, The White and The Black Tower), these Waygates may be needed in some point.

And that's surely not the only Waygate in "Randland". I don't remember anyone else destroying them. Not even Rand.

Only one way gate has ever been successfuly destroyed and it took a full circle of powerful Aes Sedai with an angreal (maybe sa'angreal) to do so.

[Goramier]

 

I blame Melli Craeb. I don't know who you are, but you wreak of guilt! I carve a dragon fang on your door. I stab you in the name of the light!!!

 

WoW! I truly laughed out loud at that. That is epic!

 

I got to say, I have had the same thought as to not remembering who the heck that person even is and when I read that I really laughed.

 

I have definately been writing my posts in an argumentative tone though I take this entire thing light heartedly. I have and continue to fully blame Elayne. It is what it is. But some times you just gotta laugh and this quote did it for me. Bravo.

[Mr Ares]

I blame it entirely on Olver. He WAS in the area after all. He SHOULD have opened that letter much sooner. He SHOULD have played into his role as a kid and just opened it and then this would've been prevented. It is clearly his fault. Not Elaynes. She can take no blame for it. She wasn't really warned to any degree one could put any real account into. She didn't know of the waygate that led directly into her city. She was told it was secure. The fact that those in her own dungeon had managed to plot and escape is of no consequence. She put her soldiers exactly where they needed to be...away from the city. She had to protect all the lands that were dying and had no food after all, not to mention all the people who became transient. Protecting the city itself...blah..any reasonable person would have potentially moved out the soldiers and left it to be protected by mercenaries and the Band who were staying outside the city. Very reasonable I say. She is the hero here.

Given that the Band are her soldiers now, she didn't leave the city undefended. Given that the threat was against her country, not her capital, protecting only Caemlyn but leaving the bulk of her country open would be madness. Given that everyone had reason to believe the Waygate was secure, and it was hardly left unprotected, she had no reason to destroy it, did she? Elayne was warned of a threat and took action to guard against it. Are you going to address that at any point? Bearin in mind that a Waygate is a natural chokepoint as well, and therefore not ideal for an invasion. You blow the bridges as a last resort, not on the off chance. Not destroying the Waygate was reasonable, given what she knew. She was wrong, but through no fault of her own. Had she had reason to believe the invasion was coming through the Ways, she doubtless would have destroyed it. She didn't know that, though. All she knew was invasion, so she guarded her borders against it. Verin passed the information to Mat, to pass to Elayne. He didn't pass it on. He had it but didn't pass it on. Now, he could have done so. Verin could have done more to get him to act. We don't know how well guarded the Waygate was, so we can't say if Elayne was negligent there, but taking away the leaves and warding it, plus guards, would be enough under normal circumstances. So what more could Elayne reasonably be expected to do, given the information she had?

 

I'd blame Verin, but it's still Elaynes responsibility.

 

Her capital is under attack and afaik all that is left to defend it is a bunch of mercs. Mercs she ordered to camp way outside the city. It doesn’t matter that she was warned or not, her city is burning and she and her army is not there.

The querstion is, did she take reasonable steps to protect her country? To which the answer is yes. She strengthened border defences, and left soldiers to protect her capital. What more could she have done to protect her country, given what she knew?

[Cirin]

The Wheel Weaves as the Wheel Wills.

 

I blame the Wheel. Did any of them really have a choice in the matter? How thick is the predestination in the air in Randland?

[Durinax]

once again I must thank Mr. Ares for summing up what I was trying to say in a much better fashion than I could

[Goramier]

once again I must thank Mr. Ares for summing up what I was trying to say in a much better fashion than I could

 

I have no idea what he said as I put him on ignore the moment I found that option. He has never said anything I have cared to read. I am satisfied with my arguments. I am far from being the most knowledgeable regarding WoT matter but this is mostly based on opinion and I can be wrong, but its a very rare occurance ;)I haven't read a single thing that undermines or betters my argument as to who is to blame. Elayne should be hung high for her massive blunder.

[NetSlider]

once again I must thank Mr. Ares for summing up what I was trying to say in a much better fashion than I could

 

I have no idea what he said as I put him on ignore the moment I found that option. He has never said anything I have cared to read. I am satisfied with my arguments. I am far from being the most knowledgeable regarding WoT matter but this is mostly based on opinion and I can be wrong, but its a very rare occurance ;)I haven't read a single thing that undermines or betters my argument as to who is to blame. Elayne should be hung high for her massive blunder.

 

Don't you be dissing Mr. Ares, man! Even though I don't agree with him on this one (than I didn't follow this thread very well for the last couple pages; who do you blame Mr. Ares? If it is Mat you blame, talk to the hand!) he has an ability to start very interesting topics. And usually he says interesting things that make sense.

[Goramier]

Don't you be dissing Mr. Ares, man! Even though I don't agree with him on this one (than I didn't follow this thread very well for the last couple pages; who do you blame Mr. Ares? If it is Mat you blame, talk to the hand!) he has an ability to start very interesting topics. And usually he says interesting things that make sense.

 

I didn't intend that to be a diss or insult.

[Mr Ares]

I haven't read a single thing that undermines or betters my argument as to who is to blame.

Would someone like to tell Goramier that that might be because he isn't reading any views that might inconveniently conflict with his own?

 

 

once again I must thank Mr. Ares for summing up what I was trying to say in a much better fashion than I could

 

I have no idea what he said as I put him on ignore the moment I found that option. He has never said anything I have cared to read. I am satisfied with my arguments. I am far from being the most knowledgeable regarding WoT matter but this is mostly based on opinion and I can be wrong, but its a very rare occurance ;)I haven't read a single thing that undermines or betters my argument as to who is to blame. Elayne should be hung high for her massive blunder.

 

Don't you be dissing Mr. Ares, man!

I'm just flattered that he cared enough about me to put me on ignore. It means he's put some effort into hiding from how right my points are.

[Ashaman Eric]

Would someone like to tell Goramier that that might be because he isn't reading any views that might inconveniently conflict with his own?

 

I'm just flattered that he cared enough about me to put me on ignore. It means he's put some effort into hiding from how right my points are.

 

I think you need to just let it be. Ignore is there for a reason - let him ignore you. From this post alone, I'd consider ignoring you. You came off as smug and arrogant and added nothing to the discussion.

 

Regarding the matter at hand, I think it's a bit silly to apportion blame.

 

I'd blame Rand for not properly securing the home city of somebody he loves. Granted he's a bit busy so he may deserve a pardon.

I'd blame Verin for not just flat out telling Egwene what was happening - who could have then dreamwalked/traveled and warned Elayne.

I'd blame Mat for not just opening the letter. But I'd say he had another letter on his mind (Tower of Ghenjei).

 

I could blame a lot of people. But honestly, maybe I'm just more fatalistic than you guys. I believe everything was supposed to play out exactly as it has. She gave the letter to Mat - made him promise to do whatever was in it - because she knew he wouldn't. Verin is Nakomi. She went to Rhuidean, she went through the rings, she saw what she needed to do and she did it.

[randsc]

]Would someone like to tell Goramier that that might be because he isn't reading any views that might inconveniently conflict with his own?

 

Pot, meet kettle...

[Goramier]

 

Regarding the matter at hand, I think it's a bit silly to apportion blame.

 

I'd blame Rand for not properly securing the home city of somebody he loves. Granted he's a bit busy so he may deserve a pardon.

I'd blame Verin for not just flat out telling Egwene what was happening - who could have then dreamwalked/traveled and warned Elayne.

I'd blame Mat for not just opening the letter. But I'd say he had another letter on his mind (Tower of Ghenjei).

 

I could blame a lot of people. But honestly, maybe I'm just more fatalistic than you guys. I believe everything was supposed to play out exactly as it has. She gave the letter to Mat - made him promise to do whatever was in it - because she knew he wouldn't. Verin is Nakomi. She went to Rhuidean, she went through the rings, she saw what she needed to do and she did it.

 

I have been playing the blame game in this thread cause it has been fun for me actually, lol. I have no idea why either. What happened happened. With that said, I got to argue :) with the Rand portion of your analysis.

 

Rand would have secured the Lion Throne and even left Aiel for Elayne but miss priss didn't want it. She was even what...taking a scolding tone with Rand for daring to secure the throne for her magesty, I believe. If I was Rand...I would have been like, "your unhappy for what I did? Fine, go in the kitchen and fix me a sannich!" Lol JK! incoming hate posts.

 

As far as the Nakomi idea...its been discussed but I doubt it personally. I think she may or may not come back in the last book but for some reason I find myself doubting its Verin though I can't completely rule it out either.

 

Edit: fixed "book one" to read "the last book"

[Mr Ares]

Would someone like to tell Goramier that that might be because he isn't reading any views that might inconveniently conflict with his own?

Pot, meet kettle...

Whose views haven't I read?

[MikeRiley]

Slightly off topic but while reading this I recalled something we're still missing. What about Tomas? He's "visiting family" or something, aren't they in Caemlyn? I wouldn't be surprised if we see him next year!

[gary0044187]

Elayne- She is Queen of Andor, the defense of Caemlyn is ultimately her responsibility. Whether she did everything she could to defend against an attack or not, the city is her responsibility. Of course, if she is halfway intelligent, she has told the Kin in her city where she will be. The moment the city is under attack, the kin can jump to FoM to bring her and her army back (and any other army there).

 

Verin had that oath on the rod binding her, what she did was not everything she could do but was enough to get something done, she also had a lot of other crap to do before she died, if you remember she had a bunch of letters to give out. She could have done more, she did not, we can discuss morality later. Caemlyn is not her responsibility at all, the fact that she took any action to try to stop it (handing the letter to mat) is commendable, especially with the oath to never betray the dark one.

 

Mat is not the Queen of Andor. He chose not to open the letter, instead going into the ToG to get Moiraine. If you look at the timing, IMHO this was his choice to make, one AS or another, he chose to save Moiraine, thus helping to possibly insure a better world.

 

in the end, when Caemlyn burns, it is the Queen of Andor's responsibility. Else, why is she the Queen?

 

Drifter- Verin told Egwene that Tomas was spending that time with his family, but that he had eaten poison and died there.

[Durinax]

of course Caemlyn is Elaynes responsibility, the main question being whether or not she took proper actions in the preceding events leadin to the burnin of caemlyn