Military Roundup

[ShaitanKiller]

http://en.wikipedia....le_of_Agincourt

 

Numbers are disputed but that was probably about 4:1 in favor of the French.

 

 

There aren't any real life battles analagous to Dumai's Wells. I'd imagine a bunch of Zulus charging a WWI style trench with machine guns might be similar. Dumai's Wells wasn't a battle. It was a massacre.

 

4-1 is completely believable, especially since the British had superior weapons technology in their longbows (and most of the British force were archers). 8:1 is completely unrealistic and that's the point I'm making.

 

ok a few examples

all from indian history as i am indian

you probably wouldnt have heard of any of these

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khanwa

10-1 odds... babur managing to win due to better tech in his cannons

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Longewala

23-1 odds...indians winning due to better strategic positioning of their forces(showing that even with such odds you can win despite having no technological superiority)

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Panipat_%281526%29

6-1 odds... babur again winning due to his cannons

[Mulk]

Second Battle of Sabine Pass, Texas - this is a little known footnote to the American Civil War that I'm familiar with largely because I happened to grow up in Texas.

 

44 Confederate soldiers with 6 artillery pieces

~5000 Union troops on 4 gunboats and 7 transports

 

The Confederates killed 200 or so, sank two gunboats, took another 200 or so prisoner and forced the withdrawal of an intended occupation force when the Union force landed and began putting troops ashore in preparation for an attempt at occupation of that part of Texas. It is believed that the Confederates did not suffer a single casualty in the fight. This is not a true land battle per se so it's not quite like Dumai's Wells or Thermopylae or whatever, but the battle was won largely due to the superior marksmanship of the Confederate artillery. That would be over 100:1 odds.

[Erunion]

There are dozens of examples in history of heavily outnumbered forces holding out, look for example at the battle of Assaye where the Anglo-Indian forces were outnumbered 5-1 in a field battle, yet still came out the victors.

[smileyman]

Moving on to the Band of the Red Hand

 

In Knife of Dreams, chapter 25 Talmanes meets up with Mat. At that point he had brought " . . .three banners of horse and four thousand mounted crossbowmen. I left three banners of horse and five of foot . . ." There's also a banner of masons.

 

In chapter 37 of KoD we learn that Mat has lost 400 crossbowmen and close to 500 calvary. Talmanes leads 3 banners of horse behind the 10,000 men who are trying to capture or kill Tuon. "Talmanes had come in range, now, and announced himself with a volley from four thousand bows . . .)

 

So, 3 banners at this point is 4000 horsemen, with another 500 dead, making 4500 total. This makes one banner equal to 1500 men

 

Given that, the breakdown should be something like this:

 

Band of the Red Hand

Crossbowmen--3500-4000 (figuring replacements and desertions)

Calvary--9,000

Assorted infantry--7500

Grenadiers--50

Artillerymen??

 

Total forces--20,000. There have been desertions, but recruting has also been ongoing. Right now I'd place an overall number of the Band at somewhere between 18-22,000. (probably closer to the smaller number).

 

Am I missing anything?

Talmanes signed 900 Altaran cavalry so the Band left Altara with about as much cavalry as they came in with.

 

Also, banners of foot are twice the size of banners of horse so add another 7500 to that.

 

Do you have a reference for the foot being twice as large as the horse? It makes sense to me but I'd like to have a passage that I can quote when I edit the main post.

 

 

 

[Diederichos]

IT is from the guide. A banner of horse is 1.5k, one of foot is 3k and one of masons is roughly same as foot.

 

If he came into ALtara with 3 banners of horse, that's 4500 horsemen plus 4000 crossbowmen for a total of 8500.

If he left 3 banners of horse, 5 of foot and a masons' banner, that 4500 horsemen, 15000 foot, and another 3000 of masons. A total of 20.5k

Band total is 31k.

 

He recruits 900 men and loses the same roughly, that's still at least 30k. With Mat present, recruitment should at the extreme least be the same(or even twice, but at least the same) as desertions, that';s still over 30k.

[smileyman]

IT is from the guide. A banner of horse is 1.5k, one of foot is 3k and one of masons is roughly same as foot.

 

If he came into ALtara with 3 banners of horse, that's 4500 horsemen plus 4000 crossbowmen for a total of 8500.

If he left 3 banners of horse, 5 of foot and a masons' banner, that 4500 horsemen, 15000 foot, and another 3000 of masons. A total of 20.5k

Band total is 31k.

 

He recruits 900 men and loses the same roughly, that's still at least 30k. With Mat present, recruitment should at the extreme least be the same(or even twice, but at least the same) as desertions, that';s still over 30k.

 

Ah. I've never read the Guide. I'd have to believe that a banner of masons' would be less than a banner of horse. 3,000 masons out of 30,000 is a rather large percentage of your army tied up in engineering work.

[Diederichos]

I think it makes sense because in this sense I think t hey include everyone in a support capacity, cooks, farriers, siege engineers and so on. If it doesn't, then in that case the band is much larger than the 30k. The Band can't move as fast as it does and be as good as it is without being heavy on logistics, a bit like the seanchan.

[smileyman]

I think it makes sense because in this sense I think t hey include everyone in a support capacity, cooks, farriers, siege engineers and so on. If it doesn't, then in that case the band is much larger than the 30k. The Band can't move as fast as it does and be as good as it is without being heavy on logistics, a bit like the seanchan.

 

I can buy this--if the masons includes all those types of people than yeah, 3,000 is perfectly reasonable. 3,000 people to just build bridges, not so much. I also find it interesting that Mat's army is the only one that we've seen with an actual Corp of Engineers. I wonder if that's going to be a plot point in AMOL?

[Charlz Guybon]

Moving on to the Band of the Red Hand

 

In Knife of Dreams, chapter 25 Talmanes meets up with Mat. At that point he had brought " . . .three banners of horse and four thousand mounted crossbowmen. I left three banners of horse and five of foot . . ." There's also a banner of masons.

 

In chapter 37 of KoD we learn that Mat has lost 400 crossbowmen and close to 500 calvary. Talmanes leads 3 banners of horse behind the 10,000 men who are trying to capture or kill Tuon. "Talmanes had come in range, now, and announced himself with a volley from four thousand bows . . .)

 

So, 3 banners at this point is 4000 horsemen, with another 500 dead, making 4500 total. This makes one banner equal to 1500 men

 

Given that, the breakdown should be something like this:

 

Band of the Red Hand

Crossbowmen--3500-4000 (figuring replacements and desertions)

Calvary--9,000

Assorted infantry--7500

Grenadiers--50

Artillerymen??

 

Total forces--20,000. There have been desertions, but recruting has also been ongoing. Right now I'd place an overall number of the Band at somewhere between 18-22,000. (probably closer to the smaller number).

 

Am I missing anything?

Talmanes signed 900 Altaran cavalry so the Band left Altara with about as much cavalry as they came in with.

 

Also, banners of foot are twice the size of banners of horse so add another 7500 to that.

 

Do you have a reference for the foot being twice as large as the horse? It makes sense to me but I'd like to have a passage that I can quote when I edit the main post.

BWB in the Trolloc Wars section, and that's what Mat bases his military organization on. Aside from that, likely in FoH or LoC somewhere.

[smileyman]

Does anyone remember how many pikemen Mat has? I think the last time we got a count on them was actually in FoH when they first joined up, right?

[Charlz Guybon]

I think it makes sense because in this sense I think t hey include everyone in a support capacity, cooks, farriers, siege engineers and so on. If it doesn't, then in that case the band is much larger than the 30k. The Band can't move as fast as it does and be as good as it is without being heavy on logistics, a bit like the seanchan.

 

I can buy this--if the masons includes all those types of people than yeah, 3,000 is perfectly reasonable. 3,000 people to just build bridges, not so much. I also find it interesting that Mat's army is the only one that we've seen with an actual Corp of Engineers. I wonder if that's going to be a plot point in AMOL?

Build bridges, cut roads through forces, dig trenches, build walls and other fortifications, build siege weapons, dig tunnels, etc. There's a lot more to engineers in the premodern period than building bridges.

[Charlz Guybon]

Does anyone remember how many pikemen Mat has? I think the last time we got a count on them was actually in FoH when they first joined up, right?

I think last we saw he had a 1-5 ratio of archers to pike, but wanted a higher one. So out of a banner of 3,000 there were 500 archers/crossbowmen to 2,500 pikemen.

[smileyman]

I think it makes sense because in this sense I think t hey include everyone in a support capacity, cooks, farriers, siege engineers and so on. If it doesn't, then in that case the band is much larger than the 30k. The Band can't move as fast as it does and be as good as it is without being heavy on logistics, a bit like the seanchan.

 

I can buy this--if the masons includes all those types of people than yeah, 3,000 is perfectly reasonable. 3,000 people to just build bridges, not so much. I also find it interesting that Mat's army is the only one that we've seen with an actual Corp of Engineers. I wonder if that's going to be a plot point in AMOL?

Build bridges, cut roads through forces, dig trenches, build walls and other fortifications, build siege weapons, dig tunnels, etc. There's a lot more to engineers in the premodern period than building bridges.

 

I do know what a corp of masons are for.

[Muad Cheade]

Does anyone remember how many pikemen Mat has? I think the last time we got a count on them was actually in FoH when they first joined up, right?

I think last we saw he had a 1-5 ratio of archers to pike, but wanted a higher one. So out of a banner of 3,000 there were 500 archers/crossbowmen to 2,500 pikemen.

 

Mat wants to get the ratio of pike to archers 50:50 which makes the armies more mobile, and with the rapid fire crossbows the Band has (there was a reference to Mat trying to improve them), the Band should be very effective in Tarmon Gaidin.

 

He should also give the crossbows to the Legion of the Dragon since that is part of their modus operandi.

[DemandredFO]

I hope no one included AS in the battle calculus because outside of a few they got their asses kicked by the Seanchan. As I said in another thread, fireballs lightning and exploding rocks aren't going to kill dreadlord-led armies of shadowspawn. They might not even kill some shadowspawn. As for the WT army, Bryne swore to Egwene; what will he do if she takes her toys and goes home because she's pissed at Rand. Besides as good as Bryne and Uno are, they have no Taveren to pick the best of the best.

On perrin, remember too, his army is getting powerforged weapons so that probably counts for something.

[AutomatedTeller]

Egwene isn't a queen. She doesn't even control the army, and it's almost certain that, in the extremely unlikely event that she says "I'm going on and taking my White Tower with me", the rest of the Aes Sedai will say "oh well. Guess we'll find another Amyrlin to LEAD US IN THE LAST BATTLE - or just go without"

[randsc]

I honestly don't understand the point of counting up the good-guy soldiers, when we have no idea how many baddies there are. And when the head-baddie can apparently produce massive armies at the drop of a hat. Numbers are clearly meaningless here.

[blazetheearth]

The only place that I can realistically see Mat's Engineering Corp having an impact it in the upcoming assault/defense of Camelyn. For example if the Shadow manages to close the gates to the outer wall around the New City and the Band has to sap under or bring down one of the walls to re-take parts of the city. But I find that doubtful, imho RJ threw in the Engineering Banner as another way to set the Band apart from other armies in Randland. The Band has been being shaped into the Example To Be Held On High for military organization, and therefore has to have the most cutting edge technology (not OP dependent like Perrin's, but tech-dependent) like the semi-auto single-crank crossbow that Mat's trying to figure out and the dragons and the staff-sling-boom-sticks and and engineering bat... banner would fit right into that mold of very tech driven warfare, but I don't think he ever truly intended to exploit their usefulness because all they have done so far is off-screen while Mat was not with the Band.

[Lynchgrinch]

Is anyone else thinking...."holy crap, i never realised that randland has so many people living in it!" :p

 

The numbers make sence if you think about them, yeah, but i suppose i never REALY payed attention to them...

[Zentari]

Is anyone else thinking...."holy crap, i never realised that randland has so many people living in it!" :p

 

The numbers make sence if you think about them, yeah, but i suppose i never REALY payed attention to them...

Not really.Heck, based on size alone it should have contained many more but the whole "recess" from all the conflicts has done a fair job of weakening every kingdom in it.

[DemandredFO]

I think unless the Caemlyn is being led by dreadlords or a Foresaken then it won't come to forcibly taking back the city. Trollocs strike me as the kill everything and move on type; not the fortification types.

[Darth Krewl]

Is anyone else thinking...."holy crap, i never realised that randland has so many people living in it!" :p

 

The numbers make sence if you think about them, yeah, but i suppose i never REALY payed attention to them...

 

No, the numbers wouldn't usually make sense. The thing here, at least to my understanding, is that everyone and their neighbor must enroll to fight in the Last Battle, because it's basically "do or die" for everyone in the WoT world. And when you have Traveling at your disposal, you can move huge armies, saving lots and lots in the way of expenses and logistics (provisions and supplies can be replenished using the same gateways).

 

If it wasn't for the reasons stated above, thinking that you could move such huge armies over such distances, in those medieval-like conditions, would be entirely out of the question.

[Agelmar]

The only place that I can realistically see Mat's Engineering Corp having an impact it in the upcoming assault/defense of Camelyn. For example if the Shadow manages to close the gates to the outer wall around the New City and the Band has to sap under or bring down one of the walls to re-take parts of the city. But I find that doubtful, imho RJ threw in the Engineering Banner as another way to set the Band apart from other armies in Randland. The Band has been being shaped into the Example To Be Held On High for military organization, and therefore has to have the most cutting edge technology (not OP dependent like Perrin's, but tech-dependent) like the semi-auto single-crank crossbow that Mat's trying to figure out and the dragons and the staff-sling-boom-sticks and and engineering bat... banner would fit right into that mold of very tech driven warfare, but I don't think he ever truly intended to exploit their usefulness because all they have done so far is off-screen while Mat was not with the Band.

 

On the contrary, the Trolloc invasion will be by its nature offensive, and I could easily see Mat engaged in a series of defensive battles around the northern border in order to protect Andor or Carhien (similar to what Bryne has planned for Tar Valon) now that the Borderlands have been breached. With advanced crossbow technology (possibly bolstered by the huge number of crossbowmen in the Legion of the Dragon), rudimentary cannon technology, and probably a complement of channelers, an early version of trench warfare is almost a given. And somebody has to dig all those trenches.

[Muad Cheade]

On the contrary, the Trolloc invasion will be by its nature offensive, and I could easily see Mat engaged in a series of defensive battles around the northern border in order to protect Andor or Carhien (similar to what Bryne has planned for Tar Valon) now that the Borderlands have been breached. With advanced crossbow technology (possibly bolstered by the huge number of crossbowmen in the Legion of the Dragon), rudimentary cannon technology, and probably a complement of channelers, an early version of trench warfare is almost a given. And somebody has to dig all those trenches.

Not only has the Shadow breached the Borderlands but they are also in the heart of the Westlands and are currently attacking Caemyln. We also have evidence that they have infiltrated the south as well.

[gary0044187]

On the contrary, the Trolloc invasion will be by its nature offensive, and I could easily see Mat engaged in a series of defensive battles around the northern border in order to protect Andor or Carhien (similar to what Bryne has planned for Tar Valon) now that the Borderlands have been breached. With advanced crossbow technology (possibly bolstered by the huge number of crossbowmen in the Legion of the Dragon), rudimentary cannon technology, and probably a complement of channelers, an early version of trench warfare is almost a given. And somebody has to dig all those trenches.

Not only has the Shadow breached the Borderlands but they are also in the heart of the Westlands and are currently attacking Caemyln. We also have evidence that they have infiltrated the south as well.

I believe the majority of the armies gathered at FoM will be dispersed, countering all the offensives that have occurred throughout the lands. I expect Great Captains and well known characters spread all over randland putting out fires with AS and AM (ashaman only if they deal with the BT first, otherwise BT will just be another fight) support for their armies. Rand himself will only have a small force with him (comparatively), strikeforce sized with several key characters to defend him when he goes to SG. The book will be spread amongst the PoV's of several characters with an almost loss right before the victory.