Discuss Egwene

[Durinax]

may I just say that I love this topic since i hate Egwene

 

now what I have to add is that she is the only character who has gone through the same character development about 4 times. First with Nynaeve, then AS training, then WO apprenticeship, and finally Amyrlin training.

 

and like many others I find her arrogance distasteful. and not only do we see that she doesnt seem aware of how arrogent she is, but rather she condemns others for being arrogent. Also I just remembers that early in the series that she judges rand harshly because he is using mat and perrin to do what needs to be done, then later in the series we see her use her friends also, but in a much more dangerous way, the most recent example being that she used Nynaeves AS test to help her reputation as being iron clad in the traditions, that she doesnt favour people, and this is in fact the most dangerous using of people we have seen since it almost killed nyn and was much harsher than anyone else

[Kahlika]

She's certainly not the most endearing character, but what Aes Sedai is?

 

But people's objections to her have just become absurd. Everyone acts like they're so hugely let down by her, she is held to much, much higher standards than everyone else. Why is she expected to be so much better? Especially when we've had it drummed into us over and over again that the Aes Sedai are merely human.

 

I actually find some of the arguments kind of funny, so many of them project an absolutely ridiculous standard of knowledge and ability onto her.

 

The way the arguments swing from 'how dare she not do her job properly' to 'how dare she do her job properly' is also fairly hilarious. She's pretty much damned if she does and damned if she doesn't in most cases.

 

What about the borderlands

 

I must've missed the chapter in which she forced the Borderland rulers to abandon their posts and run around the world in order to slap the Dragon reborn a couple of times and ask about the most ridiculous prophecy in the series.

 

Even within the Aes Sedai her job is not to deal with the army. The book was pretty explicit about that responsibility being ceded to the Hall while she took on the role of dealing with the rulers. She did her job, you should be asking why the Aes Sedai who demanded they be put in charge of the army haven't done more.

 

Nobody's denying the situation is bad, but she's doing what she can within the structures she works within.

 

They have travelling or skimming send some of the more powerful greens with angreal and sa'angreal to defend the borderlands.

 

And where are all the Greens demanding to be sent to the Borderlands that she so maliciously denies?

 

Should she force them to go despite that not being her job at the insistence of the Hall? What if they refuse and that completely undermines her authority?

 

Rand has made mistakes but his is a special case. He had memories coming from nowhere, had to channel through the taint and was told that he would save and break the world.

 

posted by NiccMac

 

...give him a break! Can't you see the incredible strain he's under? How would you act under that awesome weight of responsibility? If he balefires a few palaces and/or family members, well, you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette.

 

You say Rand has commited crimes; well Egwene's are just as great and with less cause.

 

I guess I also missed the chapter where she Balefired and entire castle. That must've been in the same chapter that she came *this* close to destroying the world, after nearly killing her family because I can't remember that either.

 

She spends time and effort trying to ensure that the White Tower will control all of the female channelers, post-Last Battle... Egwene is doing is the equivilent of plotting to ensure that that nuclear war benefits her political party in the resulting redistricting. Outrageous.

 

How dare she look out for the organisation she is the head of! It's almost like she's doing her job, and what kind of Aes Sedai does that! Outrageous!

 

Honestly it would be outright negligent for a leader not to do so. It's simple politics. Yep, it can be pretty distasteful, but that's politics.

 

I will say under this one though that I was actually pretty impressed by the attitude she took with this one. Yes, she wants the WT to come out on top (who doesn't want an organisation they're a part of/the leader of to win?), but she wants to be on top because they have earned it and deserve it. Props to her there imo.

 

Rand isn’t a king etc

 

Except where he's the King of Illian.

 

She pits herself against the pattern.

 

Everyone else's actions are part of the pattern but hers aren't? This argument comes back to people attributing superpowers she doesn't have to her.

 

She’s a good, old-fashioned sexist... In this regard, at least, she is a worse person than Lanfear or Graendel.

 

They were equal opportunity mass murderers!

 

Honestly, yeah she is. But please, point me to someone who isn't. Again, she's expected to be better than everyone else.

 

Her actions toward Perrin in TAR. Are not just arrogant, they’re potentially deadly. Trying to tie him up in the middle of a battle? ... In the second place, she says something like, “I’m sorry Perrin, I’ll be back for you.”

 

How dare she try to help a friend, and she even had the nerve to apologise to him.

 

We know her actions were dumb, because we know all about Perrin. She doesn't. She tried to keep him safe when she was in the middle of a fight with a Forsaken.

 

This one has it all. It expects her to know far more than she actually does (Perrin himself chose to keep the Wolfbrother thing secret from her), it expects her to have superpowers she doesn't have, and it expects her to be far better than everyone else in terms of making better decisions when she's in the middle of a huge battle.

 

No respect for the man she supposedly loves.

 

Seriously, raise your hand if you DO respect Gawyn.

 

The fact that she's still with Gawyn after how annoying and stupid he's been throughout the course of the series is what should be used to complain about her, at the very least you could insult her intelligence with it ^.^

 

People LTT MADE THE SEALS. Everyone looks at them as something ubercool. To him it's like 3rd grade science project that now he sees might be improved. Rand, via LTT memories, knows what's he doing. After all, he made the seals in the first place. PERIOD!

 

LTT made them badly and messed up massively in their application. He effectively destroyed the world. Rand doesn't want to do it that way again because it doesn't work and he's hoping to achieve something different anyway.

 

She opposes Rand instinctively, with no plan of her own. It's fine to be freaked by the idea of breaking the seals. It is not fine to simply attempt to stonewall while making no attempt to come up with a better plan, and devoting the resources (e.g., the Browns) who could have helped come up with a better plan to White Tower politics instead.

 

Rand out and out admits he does not in fact know what he's doing. He wants to break the seals and wing it. He tells Egwene he has no plan. He tells Min he has no plan.

 

Rand has no plan but Egwene should have one?

 

She is trying to do something, she's trying to get all the leaders together to work it out, and she's trying to stop anything that could make things worse happening in the meantime. If she'd come up with a plan and run with it you'd all be howling that she was a terrible undemocratic dictator and how dare she presume to make a plan when it's not her job. She organises to get people together and she's not doing enough. How can she win this one exactly?

[Jack Shaftoe]

But Egwene approved all along.

 

No, she didn't. She approved the idea of preventing pillaging but disapproved the way Rand wanted to achieve it. She thought it was "a good thing" but quickly adds "if it worked". Maybe she didn't disapprove it outright but she didn't think it was a great idea either. She was undecided. Of course, after Sorilea basically says "Go Rand!", Egwene changes her tune and claims it was a good idea all along. But she still thinks Rand is too arrogant (ah, the irony!). Elayne actually calls her on that.

 

It's nice that she is worried the Aiel might turn against Rand and I wouldn't have read much into that scene if it was just one isolated incident. It's not. Egwene almost always presumes to know better than everybody, except for sometimes the people who are currently useful to her like Moiraine and the Wise Ones. With Rand I struggle to think of a single example where she actually wholeheartedly approves of his actions. There is always "but he could have done that instead" or "that's good but he could have done even better if he had just..." And yes, Rand is far from infallible. Treating him as if he is an idiot isn't exactly helping things, though, especially when it's coming from someone who should be well aware that Rand is far from stupid.

[Elan Tedronai]

Ha it's so funny seeing the rand al thor brigade up in arms the moment someone questions their saviour. A saviour who was one step away from destroying the entire pattern. Egwene has her faults but this constant vilfying of hers is funny. only brought about because she dared not grovel to messiah rand al thor.

 

 

May be rand the messiah should try and explain to egwene on why the seals must be broken. It's a lot better than ultimatums. But first he should try and sort his black tower out just like how egwene sorted hers.

[Elan Tedronai]

I think Egwene still has some rough edges, but I don't understand the hatred.

 

I agree that the Aes Sedai should be in the borderlands right now - I don't see how that's Egwene's issue, though, since the Hall took that power back.

 

I think she was an idiot with Gawyn, just like Gawyn was an idiot with her. She did have a point - that Gawyn wasn't accepting her as Amyrlin - but she let that blind her to the fact that maybe Gawyn was right and the killings WEREN'T Mesaana.

 

She's going to make mistakes - she's in a position of tremendous power, so her mistakes are often gonna be whoppers and do things like get novices/accepted/sisters killed.

 

But I think she's doing an excellent job, overall.

 

Can you imagine how Elaida would have reacted to Rand's pronouncement? How many sister's would have vomited had they been Amyrlin? How would Suian Sanche have reacted, as Amyrlin?

 

 

the hatred comes from her not bowing down to rand. simple as. After all why should she?. She's not privy to the huge Age of legends knowledge that rand possess. More importantly rand or mister LTT to be exact does not actually know which is the best way to seal the bore. So rand is going to break the seals and yet he still does not know how to seal the bore. Is it any suprising to see Egwene defy him?

 

Egwene is currently the most powerful woman in WOT. She basically reunited the Aes sedai completely, dispatched black ajahs and forsaken along the way. And she also refuses to bow down before Rand al thor. There's alot of gritting of teeth going on here.

[Alia]

What I dislike though, are those characters who stand up to him for no reason except their own arrogance and belief that they know better than him. I mean if you are objecting to the saviour of mankind, you better have a good reason for that - superior knowledge in a particular area for example, or a well thought out plan. But usually Egwene has none of these and just assume Rand is wrong since he is a man and he just can't know more than Egwene, Miss Know-it-all. This is the height of arrogance. Moiraine summarised her personality at one point really well "The girl knew so little and thought she knew so much."

 

 

Apart from that, why I don't think she's a good person:

1)she's an extreme hypocrite - examples are endless. One of the most blatant was already mentioned - her indignation over sisters being forced to swear to obey to the BA hunters, when she did essentially the same thing to Nisao, Myrelle and co.

 

Another one is when she brutalised Nynaeve in T'A"R by summoning two brutes to tear her clothes and give her a few scars, claiming that Nynaeve needed to be taught not to risk too much in T'A'R, yet at the same time Egwene was constantly going against the instrcuions of her teachers and risking even more. And she did all of this to cover her lie to the Wise Ones. This incident alone is enough to make it a character I dislike.

 

2) She's really sexist even by WoT standards

 

3)She's willing to hurt her closest frineds to achieve her personal goals. The Nynaeve incident from above, the way she treated Gawyn, etc. Her ruthless ambition is the most important thing for her.

 

And please don't tell me I dislike strong female characters. Elayne is my joint favourite character, I like Nynaeve a lot and all kinds of minor charaters who fit the type - Siuan, Moiraine, Amys, etc.

 

A) Moiraine came back later and treated Egwene as an equal.

1) She didnt like having to have sisters swear to her. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that something that we havent seen yet is that shes revoked that. She did that in an attempt to gain a foothold in a political situation that she was forced into. Name ONE PERSON (besides perhaps Perrin whos pretty blunt) who isnt a hypocrite at some point? I dare you.

2)Well- you've acknowledged that sexism runs rampantly in the series- please justify how (with examples) she is more so?

3)She is the leader of the White Tower- she doesnt get the benefit of protecting those she loves. It goes with the territory. Name one general out there that managed to keep their loved ones safe when they are needed to fight in order to survive. I understand that it seems ruthless- it IS ruthless. Its what has to be done though.

 

 

 

may I just say that I love this topic since i hate Egwene

 

now what I have to add is that she is the only character who has gone through the same character development about 4 times. First with Nynaeve, then AS training, then WO apprenticeship, and finally Amyrlin training.

 

and like many others I find her arrogance distasteful. and not only do we see that she doesnt seem aware of how arrogent she is, but rather she condemns others for being arrogent. Also I just remembers that early in the series that she judges rand harshly because he is using mat and perrin to do what needs to be done, then later in the series we see her use her friends also, but in a much more dangerous way, the most recent example being that she used Nynaeves AS test to help her reputation as being iron clad in the traditions, that she doesnt favour people, and this is in fact the most dangerous using of people we have seen since it almost killed nyn and was much harsher than anyone else

 

Whats interesting about this series is that we cant know everything they think. In fact, I believe that everyone in the series is forced to do things that they would deplore in normal circumstances. She is young and she has known these people since she was a child. She is entitled to hate certain things- but I think you'll find that the instances between where she condemns Rand for using his friends is many many books behind where she does so. And to her, they cannot just be friends- they are who she has. Who she trusts to try to get the job done.

 

She also had no real choice about having Nynaeve take the test for Aes Sedai- she is in a precarious position and she CANNOT be seen to favor people. To do so would erode respect that she has earned from the Aes Sedai by healing the White Tower. She herself says that the test was much harsher than it should have been- I dont think we know enough about the actual testing procedure to say that she could have in fact stopped it. Besides, as Amyrlin she really shouldnt have even been involved in the testing and she does stand up for Nynaeve in the end. Nynaeve understands her reasoning in the conversation and is even relieved to have had it happen for it allowed her to make realizations about herself.

 

 

In summary- Egwene is 19. Ive already posted most of my opinions in a previous post in this thread on her behavior. She is trying to do the best she can. How many days has it even been since she achieved the post of Amyrlin? How many miracles is she supposed to somehow make happen? If she is arrogant- fine. Name ONE character who has not shown this in anyway (besides as I said Perrin who is awesome through his humility and maybe the military men.).

[Jack Shaftoe]

If she is arrogant- fine. Name ONE character who has not shown this in anyway (besides as I said Perrin who is awesome through his humility and maybe the military men.)

 

Really, why does it always come down to "but, but other characters do it too!"? What does that prove exactly? And no, not everyone in the series is arrogant - for instance Loial, Min, Tam, Birgitte, Mat, etc.

 

She didnt like having to have sisters swear to her. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that something that we havent seen yet is that shes revoked that.

 

And I bet Mat is actually Demandred. I think we have about equal chance of winning our bets. Seriously, "we haven't seen it yet" is a bit of weak excuse, don't you think?

 

Egwene has her faults but this constant vilfying of hers is funny. only brought about because she dared not grovel to messiah rand al thor.

 

Yes, this is just it. I mean, look at all those posts bashing Tuon for not daring to bow down to Rand! These people just hate powerful women! Oh, wait - there aren't really that many such posts, despite the Seanchan being hated more than the AS among the fans. Coincidence or maybe, just maybe, there are other reasons for disliking Egwene?

 

Sarcasm aside, why would anyone who hates "powerful women" get to book 13 of WoT anyway? Only masochists would do that. Why would so many people dislike Egwene yet like Nynaeve/Elayne/Moiraine/Berelain/Aviendha/Tuon/[insert another confident woman here]?

[lhsmommy]

---Elan Tedronai

 

Today, 08:23 PM

 

Ha it's so funny seeing the rand al thor brigade up in arms the moment someone questions their saviour. A saviour who was one step away from destroying the entire pattern. Egwene has her faults but this constant vilfying of hers is funny. only brought about because she dared not grovel to messiah rand al thor.

 

 

May be rand the messiah should try and explain to egwene on why the seals must be broken. It's a lot better than ultimatums. But first he should try and sort his black tower out just like how egwene sorted hers.---

 

Seriously? Why is it that if the 'haters' are only hating because of Rand are people bringing up other incidents? If everything I have read in this thread says anything, it is that this thing with Rand is the LEAST of their complaints. I an not and Egwene hater like many, but I do find that at times she displays a serious lack of humility, an unwillingness to hear and take into consideration others knowledge and opinion, and (to repeat everyone) know it all complex.

 

I have also read quite a few people say that Rand has made HUGE mistakes and yes he almost destroyed everything. But... He didn't. He shows regret and remorse. He is trying to make reparations. He APOLOGIZES! He cried... He acknowledged all the mistakes and wrongs. Egwene does not believe she has or apparently ever will make any, according to her POV. To me, there in lies the difference between her and other characters that have been stupid or arrogant or blundered. They usually recognize and repent. I don't really hate her but would like her to grow up. Even the most powerful people in our world and theirs take and use advice, opinion and knowledge. Even tuon... Ugh.

[Kahlika]

Really, why does it always come down to "but, but other characters do it too!"? What does that prove exactly? And no, not everyone in the series is arrogant - for instance Loial, Min, Tam, Birgitte, Mat, etc.

 

Because people are trying to make the point that Egwene is held to a much higher standard than the other characters in the series. She is criticised for not being better than everyone else constantly. Nobody really explains why they think she actually should be better than everyone else.

 

Yes, this is just it. I mean, look at all those posts bashing Tuon for not daring to bow down to Rand! These people just hate powerful women! Oh, wait - there aren't really that many such posts, despite the Seanchan being hated more than the AS among the fans. Coincidence or maybe, just maybe, there are other reasons for disliking Egwene?

 

Tuon gets a fair bit of hate. That said Tuon's role in the books is much smaller in terms of her on camera time than Egwene's, it's not really an even comparison.

[Zentari]

Really, why does it always come down to "but, but other characters do it too!"? What does that prove exactly? And no, not everyone in the series is arrogant - for instance Loial, Min, Tam, Birgitte, Mat, etc.

 

Because people are trying to make the point that Egwene is held to a much higher standard than the other characters in the series. She is criticised for not being better than everyone else constantly. Nobody really explains why they think she actually should be better than everyone else.

No, she is criticized for not growing up.Everyone in the series is flawed but at least they are trying to get better.Egg's ONLY indication of doubting her judgment was when Gawyn laid on the floor bleeding to death.

[DPT24]

Until we know for sure what Egwene's been doing in the month she's had in total control of the Tower we can't completely judge her. It did seem like Bryne at least was preparing for the Last Battle. And I'm guessing Egwene's done the linking thing with all the Aes Sedai that they were doing in Salidar, and that's going to be very important, both for the Last Battle and the potential Seanchan attack. Still, she is kinda strongly anti-Rand and it's a little strange as she's his almost lover....

[TheAngryDruid]

For those who don't understand why many feel Egwene is so awful, I'll offer this little primer.

 

First, let me start by saying that I believe that Egwene is being written this way very intentionally. I am aware of the fact that RJ was frequently criticized for being unable to write strong female characters that didn't come across as bitches. But I think the growth we have seen in some of the female characters (notably Nynaeve, Cadsuane and Min) is proof that he could write strong female characters that aren't bitches. Or at least, proof that Sanderson can.

 

So if Egwene is being written as a cluesless, arrogant witch (and she is) it is intentional. There will be a plot justification for it. I favor the Halima compulsion explanation myself, but it may turn out to be something else.

 

Now, as to the ways in which Egwene is awful.

 

1. She opposes Rand instinctively, with no plan of her own. It's fine to be freaked by the idea of breaking the seals. It is not fine to simply attempt to stonewall while making no attempt to come up with a better plan, and devoting the resources (e.g., the Browns) who could have helped come up with a better plan to White Tower politics instead.

 

2. She spends time and effort trying to ensure that the White Tower will control all of the female channelers, post-Last Battle. Her little scheme with the Wise Ones and Windfinders might not be a bad idea. But if the breaking the seals is the WOT equivilent of nuclear war, as some claim, than what Egwene is doing is the equivilent of plotting to ensure that that nuclear war benefits her political party in the resulting redistricting. Outrageous.

 

3. We can see into her head, and what we see is ugly. I find the speculation about Egwene's motivations and attitudes fruitful only when we don't have direct knowledge of what she is thinking. We have Egwene POVs that give us that direct knowledge in a number of cases. Egwene doesn't think to herself, "If only Rand would EXPLAIN why he thinks he needs to break the seals." She just thinks she knows better. She doesn't think to herself, "You know, Nynaeve has spent a lot of time with Rand lately, and I trust her judgment. Maybe I should follow up later on why she isn't sure Rand's idea is crazy. But I'll oppose that plan until I have a chance to talk to her about it and consider her answers." She just thinks that Nynaeve has been spending to much time with Rand and is caught in the Ta'Veren effect. She doesn't think to herself, "I love and respect Gawyn, I just wish he would realize the difficult position I am in as a young, new Amyrlin, and defer to me in public." Instead, even her thoughts indicate that she expects not just public deference of the sort she demands of Nynaeve, but actual submission to her will.

 

4. She has a completely unfounded belief in the superiority of her own judgment, and the necessity for all to defer to her. I realize that all Aes Sedai do, but it is far worse in her case. Someone like Cadsuane might be able to say to herself, with some justification, “You know, self, I’ve seen a lot in the last 400 years. My experience is superior to that of virtually anyone alive.” A Brown (take your pick) might be able to say to herself, with some justification, “I have spent decades studying this question. My knowledge of the subject is superior to that of virtually anyone else.” Egwene is an unschooled, 19-year-old who came to her position mostly by dint of being the candidate least objectionable to all of the various factions. She has neither the experience nor the knowledge to justify her belief that she always knows best. It would be fine if she recognized this, but thought she needed to put on a brave face due to her position. But there is nothing in her POVs that suggests that she does. She just thinks she knows best.

 

5. Rand isn’t a king. I have seen a number of comments to the effect of, “No leader should be unquestioned.” Interestingly, this apparently applies only when Rand is the leader in question. Questioning our teenage Amyrlin remains verboten. But regardless, Rand is not a “leader.” He is the Dragon Reborn, the living fulfillment of the Prophecies, the Messiah come to save the World. All major characters accept this. He is the only hope of victory over the Shadow. He has been given special gifts to help him do this. And yet Egwene thinks he should, “Submit to the guidance of the Tower?” If there is a Second Coming of Jesus, will he be expected to “submit himself to the guidance” of Pat Robertson?

 

6. She pits herself against the pattern. She believes that anyone opposing her must be swept up in Ta’veren effects. Because of course no one behaving rationally could possibly oppose HER! But lets say she’s right, and Nynaeve (for example) has been swept up in Rand’s ta’veren influence. What exactly is that influence? It is the freakin’ Pattern , the motive force of the Universe, bending itself around someone in order to accomplish something that must happen. So not only is Egwene’s judgment superior to that of the Dragon Reborn, the Aiel Wise One, all the centuries-old Aes Sedai, her friends, and every other human on the planet. Her judgment is superior to the working of the Universe itself. Okey-dokie.

 

7. She’s a good, old-fashioned sexist. No other way to put it, really. Again, we don’t need to simply divine this from her actions (although we certainly could.) We see her thoughts. And she continues to hold female chauvinist beliefs. It is instructive, I think, to see how much she objects to women being bonded to male channelers. Not Aes Sedai, that’s not how she thinks of them. WOMEN. But women bonding men is just fine. It's interesting, I think, that the female Foresaken don't have the same sorts of sexist thoughts in their POVs that Egwene does in hers. In this regard, at least, she is a worse person than Lanfear or Graendel.

 

8. Her actions toward Perrin in TAR. Are not just arrogant, they’re potentially deadly. Trying to tie him up in the middle of a battle? And don’t tell me, “Oh, she was just doing that while she pushed him out of the Dream.” In the first place, we haven’t seen anything to suggest that immobilizing someone is necessary or even helpful in pushing them out of the Dream. In the second place, she says something like, “I’m sorry Perrin, I’ll be back for you.” She was clearly planning on leaving him in place while she ran off and fought the battle.

 

9. No respect for the man she supposedly loves. A.) No apology for Gawyn about the Blackknives. No thanks for saving her life. Bitch move. She knows she was wrong, but still won’t admit it. B.) No personal note asking him to return when he leaves (after she tells him she doesn’t need him). She has no official right to control his actions. He is not a Warder, or serving in her army. She has only a personal tie. And yet the note is sent by a flunky she knows dislikes men in general and Gawyn in particular. Bitch. C.) Even after events have proven that Gawyn’s judgment isn’t bad and has in at least one instance been correct while hers has been wrong, she is dismissive of his warning about Perrin and the armies. Fool.

 

10. No help for the Borderlands. Can’t allow that to get in the way of her gathering armies to herself. Because you know, she might need those armies if Rand, “Forces her hand.”

Egwene is awful. Simply awful. If there were justice in WOT world, she would be stilled and executed. But there is no justice in WOT world, or in modern publishing, so she’ll probably not even suffer any public embarrassment.

 

A perfect summary of why I can't stand Rand fanboys. Frequent hypocritical criticisms of other characters, but it's OK if Rand does the same thing (or worse). Please try to see the world w/out Rand colored glasses on.

 

Nice rebuttal to your drivel early on, but I'll take a shot as well. Point for deluded point.

 

1. Instinctively opposing Rand?

 

She doesn't instinctively oppose Rand, she instinctively opposes breaking the seals. Which is completely sane given what most in Randland believe. Does Moiraine smash the seals she finds? Does Rand earlier in the book? Does Taim? Do Elayne and Nynaeve? No, no, and no. You rightly criticize Egwene for not trying to come up with an alternative plan (or maybe it is just poor writing that hasn't shown that to us), but Rand doesn't have a plan either, yet he is determined to press forward without one. Only Min seems to be actively trying to figure it out. Why don't you criticize Rand for the same thing? I smell a fanboy/hypocrite. Lastly, all the reports she has on Rand (from Nynaeve, and anyone who has been around him lately) is that he is violent, tyrannical, and borderline insane (as Tam rightly said). She has no way to know the changes he's undergone. SHE is the one that wants to talk about it, and he refuses and rushes off and then does nothing for 22 days.

 

2. WT Control of all female channelers?

 

She is doing nothing of the kind. She is setting up an exchange program that will benefit all parties and every society. She entirely has let the Kin and the Wise Ones and the Windfinders go their own way. She hasn't tried to impose AS rules on them in any way at all. Unlike many other AS we've read about. Seriously, the fact that you don't get this makes me think you are not worth responding to.

 

3. Egwene's head is ugly?

 

No, it isn't. Or at least not always. In Ch. 3 we see that she can't think of him as a criminal (though Rand does see himself so), nor the Dragon reborn, but Rand al'Thor. She's put herself on the line for him a bunch of times (Fal Dara, Tear, Cairhien).

 

BTW, is was Siuan who thought Nynaeve was spending to much time with Rand (her POV), not Egwene. And again, she DID try to talk about it, but Rand refused. By the way, why do you think Rand is right? LTT got it wrong, has stated that the women may have been right to deny him aid, and admitted he has no plan. And by the way, she IS Amyrlin. If he's going to be her Warder, she CAN order him around. And he is going to have to trust her first.

 

Still, I hated the way Gawyn/Egwene thing was written (and it was poor). The whole "I would have bonded him earlier if he knew he loved me" was beyond stupid, but I blame the writing.

 

4. Egwene always thinks she knows best, and has only gotten lucky to gain her position?

 

Egwene has been schooled extensively by some of the best teachers in the world. She's been schooled by the some of the best of the Wise Ones (Amys, Bair, Melaine). By Moiraine in her early teachings and in Tear and in the Waste. She's gotten some politics 101 from Siuan (one of the best political Amyrlin's around), from Leane (almost as good a schemer as Siuan), and from Elayne (who learned from Morgase who learned from Thom). She may be young, but she has had good teachers, and has seen a lot of different cultures close up (Two Rivers, Fal Dara, Falme, Seanchan, Tear, Aiel Waste, Cairhein, Tar Valon). She's probably more well traveled than most sisters who are older. She often accepts advice when it is good (Siuan, even Gawyn) and she definitely IS taken aback a bit when Elayne and Nynaeve don't agree with her about Rand.

 

Plus, she gained her position through a lot of skill, determination, and self-sacrifice. She's earned that stole. She was willing to die rather than accept a Tower divided. People love Galad for his sacrifice with the Whitecloaks, but his certainties that he always knows the right thing are a sun beside's Egwene's candle.

 

 

5. Crazed non-sense from you here. All major characters accept that Rand is always right and should not be questioned? The Aiel beat him up on a regular basis. The Wise Ones certainly thinks he needs to be guided. As do Cadsuane. As does Siuan. Moiraine realizes early that he needs to free to dance to his own song. Even Nynaeve doesn't really get there until ToM/tGS. Plus, you miss the plain fact that if the other characters would have stepped aside and not questioned Rand, or tried to help him, we'd have Darth Rand and the world would be doomed.

 

Heck, he got Mat and Avi killed with his attack on Caemlyn. He could have saved Mo but didn't. He needed Cadsuane to save his bacon (how many times now: Fain in the fog, Far Madding). If Bashere hadn't jumped all over him in Altara, he'd probably have killed everyone with Callandor. And he ignored the advice of every sane advisor he has to go home before he did it. Yet, you think everyone in the series should (and has) bowed to him.

 

And the idea that we all think Egwene shouldn't be questioned is mind blowing. Of course she should. Her hypocrisies on oath's of fealty drive me batty. And in some other areas too. The difference is I rag on both Egwene and Rand for: not addressing the BT (though Rand does blow HER off); not helping Lan (though Rand does have more resources); and not planning better for the LB or how to break the seals. You just take one side.

 

6. Ta'veren.

 

We've seen tons of people in the series swept up by Rand's ta'veren effect (or Perrin's or Mat's). Why is it crazy to think someone else could be? Now, I agree she should trust Nynaeve more, but they have their own issues that make it hard for Eggy to defer to her.

 

7. Sexism.

 

Yes, she is sexist, but so is the whole world. And for good reason. The male channelers broke the world. That's where the sexism comes from, and 3,000 years of women only channelers running things. The WO's have similar thoughts about the Clan Chiefs. And the Windfinders. What about Far Madding? Or Altara? Totally sexist. But the fact that you don't seem to grasp where the sexism came from is breathtaking in it's lack of comprehension.

 

8. Perrin in T'A'R.

 

She isn't trying to tie him up. Brandon has already confirmed this. Again, the way it was written was poor, so I'll forgive you for thinking what you did. But BS has already said she was going to set him aside someplace safe, not leave him there. OK?

 

9. Bitch toward Gawyn.

 

OK. You've got me here. But, then I didn't really mind, since it was Gawyn. Still, her actions were awful.

 

10. Help for the Borderlanders.

 

Again, Rand didn't send help either, and wasn't going to, until he saw Maradon himself, and he waited 20+ days to do that. Why the hell didn't he just show up right after Ch. 3 and save all those people, then go to Bandar Eban? Seriously, what good was feeding Bandar Eban if Maradon was overrun? They'd all be in a cookpot anyway! He had more resources. Has he sent Lan aid after promising he would? No. Has he helped Arafel or Kandor? Doesn't look like it. But you love him and call her a bitch for doing the same thing. Are you sexist, or just blind?

 

You have a point. The fact that the Borderlands didn't get more help from the Dragon of the AS was infuriating. But yet, you only point the finger at Egwene, and not Rand (though he had more resources and more ability to help).

 

"Only the Messiah would fail to help the King of Malkier unless there was good reason for it!"

 

Plus, Egwene is probably worried about sending out a lot of her strength with the Seanchan about. A not unreasonable position given recent events, yes?

-----------------------------------------------------------

 

Look, I'm not saying Egwene is a saint, she isn't. She's often stubborn, arrogant, and wrong-headed. But so are Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Elayne, Cadsuane, Lan, and just about everyone else we get a POV from except for Min or Thom.

 

Again, Mr. Fanboy, take of the Rand colored glasses.

[smileyman]

 

 

Frequent hypocritical criticisms of other characters, but it's OK if Rand does the same thing (or worse). Please try to see the world w/out Rand colored glasses on.

 

No, it's not ok, but Rand is the Dragon Reborn. He's the only hope of the world's salvation, not Egwene, or the White Tower.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------

 

Look, I'm not saying Egwene is a saint, she isn't. She's often stubborn, arrogant, and wrong-headed. But so are Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Elayne, Cadsuane, Lan, and just about everyone else we get a POV from except for Min or Thom.

 

 

All of those characters have experienced growth (except for maybe Mat). Egwene hasn't learned anything except for how to better rule the White Tower.

 

Now, I'm not entirely convinced that this is her own fault. I didn't see this overriding arrogance from her early in the series, more of a ruefullness about the silliness of men. This hardcore attitude is different and I'm also of the camp that it's mostly caused by Halima's "massages", which I suspect were cover for a little bit of old-fashioned Compulsion.

 

A perfect summary of why I can't stand Rand fanboys.

 

Again, Mr. Fanboy, take of the Rand colored glasses.

 

ad hominen attacks are generally a sign of a poorly thought out position.

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

In regards to saying fans of Rand are all against Egghead. I'm actually a big Mat fan (tell them Bob, he knows ) and I still hate her. And I actually always liked Min a lot and Moir (from first book) so it's not gender issue.

 

The worst part that I'm afraid of is if after LB Egghead will get some major credit for victory I WILL CONSIDER BURNING THE CDs THAN!

 

'Tis true. You are a Mat fanboy.

 

You'e remarkably rational about Moiraine and Egwene, though, so I forgive you.

[Bob T Dwarf]

All of the defenses of Egwene seem to rest on giving her the benefit of every doubt, as to her motivations.

No, they involve understanding the situation and having the basic social knowledge to understand how people act.

 

But, this is not a case study in anthropology or sociology. This is a fantasy novel. About the possible END-OF-THE-FREAKING-UNIVERSE! She's supposed to be the primary female political leader on this side of the ocean. She doesn't have the luxury of being "people." Of acting like 'People." She has to step-up and become a Legend.

 

So far, she isn't doing great at that. Unless her legacy is supposed to be that of a legendary hypocrite.

[Graveyardhag]

I thought I would go through and address some points from my own perspective

so first, the sexism:

Everyone up in arms about this issue needs to take a step back, because you are all missing the point. Egwene, along with every other woman in WOT is supposed to be sexist to one degree or another. And this attitude is much increased among channellers. This is what RJ intented, this is how he wrote the series. Men broke the world. Men went mad, and the women were left to pick up the pieces, and rebuild the world. I'm certaintly not saying that no man at all helped, i'm sure they did. But by that point, men would not have been trusted. What if they started channelling, went mad and destroyed everything you have just built up? It's a society built on the power of women, and so the society is sexist. It's not limited to Egwene, and it's supposed to be part and parcel of the story.

 

The Borderlands:

Egwene has done her bit. In the very same hall meeting where the hall votes to remove the Amyrlins power over the WT army, and leave her to the political side of things, she informs the hall that the borderlands are being overun. The hall is now in power of the army, Egwene has informed them that the borderlands are in trouble. Job Done.

As an aside, if she attempted now to force anything through with this, absolutely nothing at all would be done. Too many of the sitters would make trouble about it.

 

Her Hypocrisy:

Yup. She certaintly is. But then, so are a lot of other people. It's the real things like this that make these characters human, and not the same old, same old story about the same old, same old people.

 

Her treatment of her Nyneave and Elayne:

Previous books

The way she treated Nyneave was both hypocritical and necessary, at least in part. Her carry on at Nyn was distasteful, I can see why she did it, but I didn't like it. It really seemed to be driving the "I'm a hypocrite" point about her home.

The nightmare thing? Was distasteful, but also necessary. One of Nyn's faults is that she thinks she doesn't need to learn anything once she has the basics. Egwene needed to show her that TAR was dangerous, and that Nyn needed to learn more before she ran into trouble. It could have been done a better way though.

 

Elayne... The only thing catching my eye in this thread was about sending Elayne to Ebou Dar. Sorry guys. Elayne was the one who decided Ebou Dar and fixing the weather was more important. You cant pin that on her.

 

Now

Obviously not what a lot of you wanted to see, but absolutely necessary. You guys did read the chapter where Egwene asks Nyn for advice right? and you did read Nyn's response right? so... uh... what exactly is wrong here? Was she supposed to ignore what her friend told her? Was she supposed to take it, but then only apply it selectively?

 

Do you guys feel that what Moirane and Suian did was wrong? was Suian abusing her authority as Amyrlin to only be close to Moirane in private? I never have seen a thread about it anywhere if you did.

The testing, was necessary for everyone involved I think. It was very cruel. But again, Egwene is walking a fine, fine line here. Does she stand up for her friend? or allow the Aes Sedai to be tested? She did warn the testers before they started that Nyn would likely be too strong for the testing, because of her TAR training. What else, exactly was she to do?

 

I didn't like her or Suian's thoughts about Rand and Nyn. Not one little bit.

 

Same with Elayne. I really didn't like her thoughts regarding her bond to Rand, and how she might be difficult. She made the right decision in leaving Elayne till after the babies are born. If she were as tyranical as some think she is she would have had Elayne in that testing and swearing on that oath rod regardless of her current channelling ability, or her babies. She didn't, and she was going to have it looked into, to make sure it was safe.

 

To be honest, a lot of her thoughts regarding Nyn, Elayne and Rand in TOM really smack of Gawynism to me. LOL, maybe she is jealous!

 

Meeting Rand with the hall:

Rand is ta'veren. Everyone else couldn't talk, Egwene could. Therefore, Rand (or the pattern) wanted Egwene able to ask the the questions and say the things she did. This entire story is based on the pattern, and its webs. The only person we know is outside of that is Paden Fain. So why the assumption that her actions are going against the pattern? Something she said then, or did afterwards is required of Egwene.

As to wanting to talk to Rand and the like, she did ask, she asked Rand to sit down and talk and plan. She also asked (well, let him know gently) to have someone look at him, to look for madness. Did you guys notice how Rand refused? For both things?

It was pointed out in another thread, were I made the same point as here that Egwene shows signs afterwards of dizzyness and the like. Later on in the book, Perrin tells Galad that these are symptoms of being caught in the ta'veren web. Take from that what you will but it seems to me that Egwene did exactly as the pattern wanted/needed at this meeting.

I do agree with everyone saying that Egwene is acting rationally in her opposition. In walks the Dragon Reborn. a channelling man shielded by TWO circles, absolutely calm. Hello Egwene, you know those seals your supposed to watch over? The ones that are holding the prison closed on the dark one? I'mma break them!! Incidently, I haven't got a clue what I'm doing after that bit. But here, you make some plans, then meet me at this place. Ciao.

Yeah. I'd TOTALLY follow that guy.

Now, I know someone (someone who is insisiting that she is acting irrationally) will respond with "LTT knows what he's doing etc etc etc"

My point is, we know that. Egwene doesn't. In fact, the only people we have seen Rand actually inform of this is Min and Cadsuane. And hey, did you notice how he STILL said he didn't know what to do?

I'd go so far as to say that we dont actually KNOW that the seals need to be broken. No-one anywhere has explicitly said, the seals holding the dark ones prison needs to be erradicated.

We can make great big educated guesses that this is what is needed, from clues given in the book. But we have no absolute certainty that its the right action.

 

Regarding the White Tower:

Guys, this is her job. Politics aren't supposed to be all rainbows and butterfly's. Especially not politics in a society from this period. Add in the magic and things get REALLY hairy.

Her thoughts aren't nice, but then neither is the situation. She wants the Sea Folk bargain revoked. She wants other Aes Sedai to have the experiences she did learning with the Wise Ones, and she wants Aes Sedai to have the learning Elayne recieved from the Sea Folk. She also knows the Sea Folk want the knowledge the Aes Sedai have, and she asks the Wise Ones this at the meeting and they agree. The Sea Folk also wish to lear about dreamwalking.

So you have 3 strong, arrogant and uptight organisations who each want something the other have. Without losing one little bit of their own authority. I dunno about you, but a student exchange program sounds mighty fine to me. Why was it wrong to do this now? The Sea Folk weren't going to release their Aes Sedai teachers for the Last Battle, and the Wise Ones weren't going to release their (Aes Sedai) apprentices for it either. Egwene try's to find a way to resolve all this, before the last battle. For some reason this is wrong? As I said, it's her job.

I agree that she should have had her Aes Sedai doing so much more. She has 7 Ajah's dedicated to different things, I can think of important jobs for each and every one of those 7 regarding either the white tower or its current problems. Or indeed, the last battle, Rand anything like that. Big big oversight. Then again, if she had asked for it to be done, would it be? If the hall decided to stall on it for some reason, there goes all her good intentions, the knowledge she could have gained, and a little bit more of her rather small bit of authority. I think i'm on the fence with this part.

 

Gawyn:

This guy is a dropkick. She wasn't treating him nicely. He saved her life. She knows this. They are bonded. He doesn't need a spoken apology, he feels what she is feeling. They gonna get married. End of story. (so far)

 

Perrin:

Egwene doesn't know about Perrin's wolf dream. I think she might have thought she saw him once (when he was searching for Faile in Tear maybe? I am not sure) She is in the middle of a battle with a forsaken and 18 odd black Ajah. Remember the Wise Ones think that male dreamwalkers are a myth. Therefore, when a male friend pops right into the middle of her battle, in a place where she has recieved extensive training and she still knows that there are things she doesn't know about it, and where so far as she has been taught, it's exclusively a female domain (disregarding in the flesh as she knows Rand can do that) a very logical reaction is to make them safe. Being WOT that means tie you up and leave you somewhere. Having that same friend, remembering everything I just said in the above sentence, then easily dismiss your ropes, and then stop BALEFIRE (it being the scary scary weave) is bound to make you a bit confused no?

 

And Finally

The Fields Of Merrilor

and associated activities.

Some of this doesn't sit well with me at all. I think it was needful for this to all happen. Everyone who is there, needed to be there. Otherwise something would have kept them away.

How they got there worries me a bit. Egwenes thoughts on it are wrong. She started out with the right intentions, gather supporters to help convince Rand to at least sit and talk about it (remember how he refused that before?) and then.... suddenly she is tying nations to her and the white tower etc etc etc? No, no no. Do not want. Do not like. And now it's "stopping Rand" instead of "talking him out of it" She seems completely blind sided to the actuall meaning of the one letter we get to see. It doesn't say what she thinks it says and I can't see why she assumes it does. Something is wrong here.

Her "force her hand" thought worries me a lot. What in the heck is she planning on doing to him?

So far as we know, it doesn't look like she has any alternate plan. (but then again, so far as we know, Rand doesn't have anything after "Smash Seals")

I didn't like her thoughts on Perrin or Elayne here. There really does seem to be somethnig wrong with these though patterns.

I do understand why she wanted to army of farmers watched.

I can't think of anything else to say about this. The whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth. Truly I hope the Halima thing has more to it.

 

 

2 other things I wanted to address about Egwene. I haven't seen them so far in this thread, but I have seen them in others on this board.

First: Comparing her captivity to Rands and how this is "wrong and arrogant" of her.

Yes she does compare hers to Rand's and every single instance I have found in the books has her concluding that though hers is bad enough, his was far, far, worse. She takes strength from the fact that his worse one didn't break him (she isn't aware of LTT's voice ) and so her lesser one wont break her. Nothing wrong or arrogant about this at all.

Second: Her Ability in TAR and how she thinks she is the queen of it.

Show me. Show me where Egwene says this. I can't recall any POV"s of Egwene's where she thinks like this. I have seen PLENTY of POV"s from other people thinking she is a prodigy for her abilities there. Never Egwene's. Her training from the Wise Ones was cut short and she is aware of this.

[K3vlar]

Since the beginning of the WOT I've always felt that Egwene's character had an overinflated sense of self worth and that she was far to malleable a personality to sympathize with. It seems that her first instinct when it comes to Rand is to take up a judgmental position in which she lambasts his decisions regardless of how necessary they may be. This is evident throughout the series.

 

I could also never get a true read on her allegiances throughout the series. It seems that her allegiance lies with whatever organization she is currently a part of. When she left the Two Rivers she immediately became an Aes Sedai apprentice under Moraine. When she was in the White Tower she became an obedient Aes Sedai novice. When she was with the Wise Ones she started to question many of the traditions of the White Tower and began to feel that the Wise Ones had more effective traditions. When she became Amyrlin she became a stereotypical Aes Sedai and abandoned most of the thoughts she had of Aes Sedai while with the Wise Ones.

 

In ToM I couldn't really understand what she was doing. Does she think Rand is crazy or doesn't she. If she believes Rand is sane than the gathering of his allies and their respective armies is an effective plan to hopefully get him to see reason with regards to the breaking of the seals. However, if she believes he is insane than this is quite possibly the dumbest move she can make. I can't see how gathering his closest supporters all of whom have sworn to him and all their men and telling him that he can't do exactly what he wants to do wouldn't antagonize him.

 

Her actions are those of desperation. We know that she won't fight him, and we know that Rand won't fight her. She has no leverage in getting him to do what she wants, she really has no legitimate option in stopping him. Her only hope would have been to find evidence that destroying the seals were unnecessary. Unfortunately she has taken no action when it comes to a plan with keeping the seal in place.

 

Verin said in TGS that the Last Battle wouldn't play out the way Rand thought it would. This of course was before his epiphany on Dragonmount. However, in ToM it is Egwene that has no clue.

 

Here are two Egwene POV's from ToM that are diametrically opposed to each other.

 

"In one month's time," Rand said, "I'm going to travel to Shayol Ghul and break the last remaining seals on the Dark One's prison. I want your help."

Break the seals? She saw the image from her dream, Rand hacking at the ropes that bound the crystalline globe. "Rand, no," she said.

"I'm going to need you, all of you," he continued. "I hope to the Light that this time, you will give me your support. I want you to meet with me on the day before I go to Shayol Ghul. And then . . . well, then we will discuss my terms."

"Your terms?" Egwene demanded.

"You will see," he said, turning as if to leave.

"Rand al'Thor!" she said, rising. "You will not turn your back on the Amyrlin Seat!"

He froze, then turned back toward her.

"You can't break the seals," Egwene said. "That would risk letting the Dark One free."

"A risk we must take. Clear away the rubble. The Bore must be opened fully again before it can be sealed."

 

Her reaction to this statement is perfectly reasonable. To your average person in Randland breaking the seals is definitely a bad idea. The problem with this is that she is gathering all his allies and telling them that Rand plans on breaking the seals but she neglects to tell them that he plans to reseal the Bore. It's a convenient omission that allows her to gather pretty much all his allies.

 

Also the common consensus in Randland is that the Dragon will face the Dark One at Shayol Ghul. How can that confrontation happen if the Dark One is locked in his prison.

 

Here is another Egwene POV with Nynaeve, and Elayne:

 

You should know that Rand is planning to break the remaining seals upon the Dark One's prison, and in so doing, risk releasing him upon the world."

Elayne pursed her lips. "Well, there are only three seals left, and they're crumbling."

"So what if he is running that risk?" Nynaeve said. "The Dark One will be freed when the final seal crumbles; best if it happens when Rand is there to battle him."

"Yes, but the seals? That's foolhardy. Surely Rand can face the Dark One, and defeat him, and seal him away without taking that risk."

"Maybe you're right," Nynaeve said.

Elayne looked troubled.

This was a more lukewarm reception than Egwene had expected. She'd thought that the Wise Ones would resist her, while Nynaeve and Elayne would immediately see the danger.

Nynaeve has been around him too much, Egwene thought. She was likely caught up by his ta'veren nature. The Pattern bent around him. Those near him would begin to see things his way, would work—unconsciously to see his will done. That had to be the explanation.

 

To me this is further evidence that she really is clueless when it comes to the Last Battle. The statement makes no sense. How can Rand fight the Dark One if he is locked behind the seals. How can he defeat him if he can't get to him. Why would you need to reseal the Dark One behind the Bore if he is defeated. If Rand really is supposed to face the Dark One I would think it was going to be a kill or be killed fight. It's not some boxing match that's gonna go to the score cards.

 

The last thoughts on her part reinforce the argument that many have had in regards to her opposition of Rand and the rationale that she uses when her own allies support him.

[Durinax]

K3vlar: your last quote reeks to me of egwene explaining to herself how she cannot trust anyone who has been near rand recently. especially the last highlighted part.

 

and to be honest theres something about her personality that grinds against me, making me hate her. while although she is just like every other character in the book, she starts out exchanging information, then moving away from her contacts (nyn, ely) and focussing on the WT, then we see her come back but not ask for information, but rather asks opinions, then conclusively dismisses them.

 

I cannot bring myself to like her. rereading is like watching her slip, book to book. but I force myself too. her with gawyn was one of the worst I have seen, and I think it was purposefully written that way, along with her blatently ignoring every other enemy except for Mesaana, along with all evidence of Mesaana not being the culprit. I think it was to show her singlemindedness and stubborness, something which we will see play out in the last book where rand will be forced to show his full experiences and rock egwenes boat, thus gaining full support from all doubting nobles and all AS there. but I guess this isnt the place for that kind of post

[David Selig]

Another reason Egwene is a person I don't like - her repeated spying on other persons dreams, without the slightest respect for their privacy. And she often doesn't even has the dubious excuse of really needing the info she can get that way. She spies repeatedly Berelain's dreams for example for no other reason except that she's nosy and arrogant.

 

And here's a quote showing Egwene typical "high opinion' of Rand:

ACOS, Chapter 9

 

Egwene did not entirely trust Alanna. The woman did extremely odd things at times, maybe impetuously and maybe with some deeper motive. Egwene would not put it past her to find a way into Rand's bed; he would be clay in the hands of a woman like her.

 

Such a nice way to think of a friend, especially one who's in relationship with your best friend. Apparently Rand is not only so weak-willed he'd be seduced if Alanna wants that, he'd let her push him around after that.

[didymos]

How can Rand fight the Dark One if he is locked behind the seals. How can he defeat him if he can't get to him.

 

Well, how can Rand fight him if the prison is still mostly intact? Which it is. The Bore is just a little gap that the DO can reach through. Right now, that gap is just somewhat narrower because some seals are still holding, but the DO can reach through nonetheless. We've seen the results over and over again. So, if the DO can reach through to the world, then someone in this world can reach through to him. In fact, channeling the True Power requires just that: you must reach out to the DO and use him as a Source.

 

Therefore, it is conceivable that Rand could do something without opening it back up to where it was when the AoL ended, and I can see why Egwene might think what she does. I also think she's wrong, but she hasn't had the view into Rand's skull that we've had, nor does she have all the extra-textual information we readers have gotten over the years.

[K3vlar]

How can Rand fight the Dark One if he is locked behind the seals. How can he defeat him if he can't get to him.

 

Well, how can Rand fight him if the prison is still mostly intact? Which it is. The Bore is just a little gap that the DO can reach through. Right now, that gap is just somewhat narrower because some seals are still holding, but the DO can reach through nonetheless. We've seen the results over and over again. So, if the DO can reach through to the world, then someone in this world can reach through to him. In fact, channeling the True Power requires just that: you must reach out to the DO and use him as a Source.

 

Therefore, it is conceivable that Rand could do something without opening it back up to where it was when the AoL ended, and I can see why Egwene might think what she does. I also think she's wrong, but she hasn't had the view into Rand's skull that we've had, nor does she have all the extra-textual information we readers have gotten over the years.

 

 

My statement was within the confines of the knowledge that the characters have access to.

 

Common consensus in Randland is that the Dragon Reborn will face the Dark One.

 

They also believe that breaking the seals will most likely release the Dark One.

 

We understand that breaking the seals won't release the Dark One right away. We can also reason like you just did that it may be possible for Rand to reach the Dark One through the bore. But I've seen no evidence of that line of thinking on the part of any of the characters.

 

I for one don't really believe that Rand will face the Dark One himself. It just seems too out there. He'll just wind up getting his ass handed to him. This whole series seems to be about balance: asha'man/aes sedai, saidar/saidin, good/evil, creator/dark one. I can't see the destruction of the Dark One as a continuation of that balance. I think it's more likely that he has to fight Moridin and figure out a way to put a legitimate seal in place.

[IoCaster]

Lots of Eggy bashing going on here. I personally think that most of the criticism is valid, but I like her anyway.

 

I'm thinking that the Seanchan attack on the tower will happen while Egwene is still at Merrilor. She'll learn of it and counterattack via traveling. I'm also inclined to think that Eggy will end up putting a collar on Tuon. That's what will make Tuon finally understand and change her mind about leashing marath'damane.

 

Eggys dream in LoC:

 

"Him walking toward a burning mountain, something crunching beneath his boots. She stirred and whimpered; the crunching things were the seals on the Dark One's prison, shattering with his every step."

 

It seems kind of strange that she has either forgotten or refuses to acknowledge it.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Lots of Eggy bashing going on here. I personally think that most of the criticism is valid, but I like her anyway.

 

I'm thinking that the Seanchan attack on the tower will happen while Egwene is still at Merrilor. She'll learn of it and counterattack via traveling. I'm also inclined to think that Eggy will end up putting a collar on Tuon. That's what will make Tuon finally understand and change her mind about leashing marath'damane.

 

Eggys dream in LoC:

 

"Him walking toward a burning mountain, something crunching beneath his boots. She stirred and whimpered; the crunching things were the seals on the Dark One's prison, shattering with his every step."

 

It seems kind of strange that she has either forgotten or refuses to acknowledge it.

 

I don't think she's forgotten. I think that dream forms the basis of her opposition. The latest dream about Rand hacking away the bonds on the crystal orb just reinforces the opinion she already had.

 

I agree that she is being deliberately written to be about as obnoxious as possible. Compulsion? Maybe. And maybe it will take a confrontation at Merrilor for somebody like Nynaeve to delve her and discover it.

 

As things stand now, we need some hand-wavy way like having Compulsion removed to get her onboard with the program.

[didymos]

Eggys dream in LoC:

 

"Him walking toward a burning mountain, something crunching beneath his boots. She stirred and whimpered; the crunching things were the seals on the Dark One's prison, shattering with his every step."

 

It seems kind of strange that she has either forgotten or refuses to acknowledge it.

 

Why strange that she forgot it? People forget things. I know: she always remembers her dreams. But that's only immediately after having them. I don't see why she couldn't forget them later, just like any of a million other things she's likely forgotten. It would have been nice if it had been referenced, but I don't see it as a problem. Besides, it could be that Brandon is saving that moment where she remembers it for the next book. Not sure it'll help much if she does: the narrative there makes it clear she thought that was a rather bad dream.

[didymos]

How can Rand fight the Dark One if he is locked behind the seals. How can he defeat him if he can't get to him.

 

Well, how can Rand fight him if the prison is still mostly intact? Which it is. The Bore is just a little gap that the DO can reach through. Right now, that gap is just somewhat narrower because some seals are still holding, but the DO can reach through nonetheless. We've seen the results over and over again. So, if the DO can reach through to the world, then someone in this world can reach through to him. In fact, channeling the True Power requires just that: you must reach out to the DO and use him as a Source.

 

Therefore, it is conceivable that Rand could do something without opening it back up to where it was when the AoL ended, and I can see why Egwene might think what she does. I also think she's wrong, but she hasn't had the view into Rand's skull that we've had, nor does she have all the extra-textual information we readers have gotten over the years.

 

 

My statement was within the confines of the knowledge that the characters have access to.

 

Common consensus in Randland is that the Dragon Reborn will face the Dark One.

 

They also believe that breaking the seals will most likely release the Dark One.

 

We understand that breaking the seals won't release the Dark One right away. We can also reason like you just did that it may be possible for Rand to reach the Dark One through the bore. But I've seen no evidence of that line of thinking on the part of any of the characters.

 

No, let me clarify: I don't think she actually reasoned it out. I think the notion just occurred to her at that moment because, for one, that's how it's written. For two, she knows perfectly well that the DO is touching the Pattern and she grasps the basic concept of the Bore being a hole into his prison. And if something can go one way through a hole, something else can go the other way. Her knowing these basic facts are enough to explain how she could just up and conceive of the possibility of reaching him without breaking the last three seals. She came to it by way of intuition, if a somewhat misinformed, or at least incompletely informed, intuition. And of course, there's an emotional bias playing a role in shaping the stuff she's thinking at that moment and pushing her towards the idea: she wants to believe Rand doesn't need to break the seals, because the idea scares the hell out of her.

 

Anyway, I went through the reasoning solely to explain to people reading the post that the basic idea isn't just flat-out wrong, and wasn't trying to claim that Egwene actually thought about it in those terms explicitly.