Discuss Egwene

[NetSlider]

People LTT MADE THE SEALS. Everyone looks at them as something ubercool. To him it's like 3rd grade science project that now he sees might be improved. Rand, via LTT memories, knows what's he doing. After all, he made the seals in the first place. PERIOD!

And? The question isn't whether or not it's a good idea. It's whether or not the characters in the novel do (or should) think it's a good idea.

 

 

The timing of it. It's like worrying if you have paid your gas bill on the eve of nuclear war. If the world is destroyed it won't matter if you paid it or not. If not, you'd have plenty of time to do it after the battle.

Spending a couple hours to create a better White Tower and helping make sure everyone can get every advantage they can out of the existence of the Wise Ones, Aes Sedai, and Windfinders seems like a pretty good thing to do to help make sure as many people as possible survive that nuclear war. Especially since she was also, simultaneously, using the meetings as a way of drawing in Mesaana and dealing with her. Which is a pretty legitimate thing to do.

 

And...if LTT thinks seals need to be broken (along with the only philosopher that we actually know spent some time thinking about it, though that's irrelevant) than the seals should be broken. LTT might not know how to fix the hole completely, but he knows what will happen once seals are broken - they were not even there when he was around. So, I say if LTT says seals go than there they go indeed. Simple as that. Remember, LTT remembers Age of freaking Legends - he knows what he's doing. He does not only remember that age - he was the greatest AS of that age. I think Egghead and all AS of WT combined with all their knowledge combined don't come even close to clean his boots. FINALLY WE HAVE A TRUE LEGEND WALKING ALIVE!

 

Couple hours, try 6 freaking books worth.

[Alia]

Egwene has always been a headstrong character (see her insisting that she go with everyone in the very first book- and remember that in reality not a lot of time has gone by. Maybe, at most, a year or two.) and I think that that is why she has gotten to where she is. She has always wanted to be more then what she is (see Nynaeve who initially started out wanting to be an Aes Sedai for the sole purpose of taking down Moraine and protecting what she thought of as hers- she has changed now but that arrogance in my opinion has been merely grown out of and changed into determination. Shes an awesome character with a lot of flaws but also a ton of positives. She was also MUCH older then Egwene at the start and as such had a maturity level higher then Egwenes so she knows a wee bit more in some cases. Shes also BEEN there with Rand through everything and still didnt tell people important news like "Oh hey Elayne. Yea- that whole huge drawing of Saidar? Yea that was me. Wait until I tell you what happened!" And yet, no one really brings that up because she is an awesome character for the most part.) and she has always taken steps to improving herself. That does imply some immaturity- shes also 19! Didnt we ALL think we knew everything at 19? Yes? Just saying. Anyways, shes dealt with a lot of issues (taken by the Seachan, manipulated by Suian Sanche to go into situations FAR beyond her and trying (and succeeding in some cases) to do the best she can to win them), being put up as a puppet after learning her self worth from the Aiel and pretending to go along with it- praying like hell shed prove them wrong, taken by Elaida, etc etc... Why wouldnt she feel she knows a lot? She was HAND PICKED by the Amyrlin herself after all only a few months after going to the Tower. Nynaeve and Elayne also feel that they are owed something- look at Nynaeve and Elayne putting their foot down with the Kin and the other Aes Sedai? Just because they did things right doesnt mean at all that they couldnt have made a horrible mistake.

 

I personally think that Egwene has become an Aes Sedai in soul now- and yet she does have her own doubts and misgivings. Who in the world would follow someone who could be lead everywhere and confess that shes uncertain and wavering? Politics sucks (Im not gonna lie at all on that one) and shes essentially been thrown into the middle of it. Not by choice, mind you. She was selected to be the rebel's Amyrlin, remember- and she had NO choice over that. She does feel that the White Tower is better- why wouldnt she? But at the same time, she has insulted or commented on the fact that Aes Sedai are not the best. See when she talked to Amys and said that she was the Queen of Fools- and that no toh was owed her because they spoke the truth. Also, she told Suian that there are times when Aes Sedai are like children. She knew and knows the Aes Sedai have their drawbacks. She also is being a perfect Amyrlin by trying to take charge in the alliance between women that can channel- remember though that each of the other groups agreed and also that they probably are also trying to lead that little agreement. So, its not just her.

 

As for sexism- name ONE female character in this whole series who doesnt act sexist at one point in time. Thats another thing that has always driven me nuts- both genders are guilty to an point. As for men not bonding women....well.....in what, how long has that not happened? Heck, maybe it NEVER happened! I mean look at Elayne bonding Birgitte? Didnt one of the Forsaken themselves comment on how many new things this Age has come up with- that being one example? Is it so strange to instinctively dislike something that is new? Thats just being human.

 

As for Gawyn. Egwene HAS to take herself seriously- why would anyone respect her if she didnt? Look at Suian? She devoted herself wholeheartedly- just like Rand and Elayne. Egwene is considered Elaynes equal in status if not higher. Thrones bow to the Amyrlin Seat- she has to act the part. More- she has to BE the part. She breaks down when she finds Gawyn- and he says that after the bonding is complete he realizes her true feelings and stress in everything that she does. Thats something all of us should be able to understand.

 

So I think that Egwene is a product of her circumstances just like everyone else in this book. She has some flaws but I dont think she should be hated so viciously for them. I like her- I think shes making some mistakes but who doesnt when they dont know all the facts? Which she doesnt. She asked Rand to talk to her about his plans but he had to run off to do other stuff- not a flaw in him but a regret in general. Why should she trust him especially when other elders (Amys and Bair, anyone?) reacted the same way she did- and they KNOW the changes in him where she doesnt. Elayne loves him and she agrees with her as well. So give the girl some slack seriously lol.

[Exy]

And...if LTT thinks seals need to be broken (along with the only philosopher that we actually know spent some time thinking about it, though that's irrelevant) than the seals should be broken. LTT might not know how to fix the hole completely, but he knows what will happen once seals are broken - they were not even there when he was around. So, I say if LTT says seals go than there they go indeed. Simple as that. Remember, LTT remembers Age of freaking Legends - he knows what he's doing. He does not only remember that age - he was the greatest AS of that age. I think Egghead and all AS of WT combined with all their knowledge combined don't come even close to clean his boots. FINALLY WE HAVE A TRUE LEGEND WALKING ALIVE!

So? That doesn't make him infallible -- this knowledge is useful, but it's still the knowledge of the guy who didn't do it right last time. And besides, none of the characters have any idea that he has all of Lews Therin's memories at this point, and for most of the series, if they knew about his conversations with Lews Therin, they thought he was insane, as Rand himself did.

 

Honestly? Are you really not capable of making a distinction between what you the reader know and what the characters in the book are capable of knowing?

 

 

Couple hours, try 6 freaking books worth.

Uh, seriously? (A) What she did for the last six books wasn't under discussion, it was her conversation with the Windfinders and Wise Ones. (B) She spent that time knitting the Tower back together and getting it under her control. What was she supposed to be doing instead of that? What's the complaint here, then? Other people said she should be using the White Tower's resources for the Last Battle. You're claiming she shouldn't have bothered with the Aes Sedai at all? Because she certainly wouldn't have any ability to do anything with them had she not spent six books getting them under her control. What, should she just have stayed an apprentice Wise One?

 

These anti-Egwene arguments are all completely dumb.

[randsc]

All of the defenses of Egwene seem to rest on giving her the benefit of every doubt, as to her motivations.

 

None of the defenses of Egwene have dealt with the fact that we actually KNOW what her attitudes are, since we have her POVs.

 

If Egwene's ploy with the Wise Ones and Windfinders is altruistic, why are her thoughts during the conversation concerned with gaining advantage for the White Tower?

[Exy]

All of the defenses of Egwene seem to rest on giving her the benefit of every doubt, as to her motivations.

No, they involve understanding the situation and having the basic social knowledge to understand how people act.

 

 

If Egwene's ploy with the Wise Ones and Windfinders is altruistic, why are her thoughts during the conversation concerned with gaining advantage for the White Tower?

They weren't, particularly. And it's a negotiation and she's leader of the White Tower. Of course she's going to do what she can for them. She'd be a shit leader otherwise. And the deal she made was perfectly reasonable and fair -- are you trying to suggest she somehow took advantage of the Wise Ones and Windfinders?

[Jack Shaftoe]

She doesn't appear to want a leadership role in Tarmon Gai'don itself.

 

Really? So what's with "let's unite the world against Rand because he doesn't know what he is doing"? She can either accept Rand's leadership or demand him to follow her. She can't really do both, can't she? So if she isn't accepting his decision and is in fact actively working to undermine his authority in the matter, I would say she is quite clearly putting herself in leadership role.

 

The only time I can think of where she seriously opposed his judgment was this one instance, and I think that was a reasonable thing given the circumstances.

 

So you can't actually come up with an example of Egwene supporting Rand? Yeah, I thought so.

 

So I think that Egwene is a product of her circumstances just like everyone else in this book. She has some flaws but I dont think she should be hated so viciously for them. I like her- I think shes making some mistakes but who doesnt when they dont know all the facts?

 

Not knowing the facts never stops Egwene from jumping to conclusions and clinging stubbornly to those conclusions. That's a part of what makes her a bad leader.

[AutomatedTeller]

I think Egwene still has some rough edges, but I don't understand the hatred.

 

I agree that the Aes Sedai should be in the borderlands right now - I don't see how that's Egwene's issue, though, since the Hall took that power back.

 

I think she was an idiot with Gawyn, just like Gawyn was an idiot with her. She did have a point - that Gawyn wasn't accepting her as Amyrlin - but she let that blind her to the fact that maybe Gawyn was right and the killings WEREN'T Mesaana.

 

She's going to make mistakes - she's in a position of tremendous power, so her mistakes are often gonna be whoppers and do things like get novices/accepted/sisters killed.

 

But I think she's doing an excellent job, overall.

 

Can you imagine how Elaida would have reacted to Rand's pronouncement? How many sister's would have vomited had they been Amyrlin? How would Suian Sanche have reacted, as Amyrlin?

[Exy]

Really? So what's with "let's unite the world against Rand because he doesn't know what he is doing"? She can either accept Rand's leadership or demand him to follow her. She can't really do both, can't she? So if she isn't accepting his decision and is in fact actively working to undermine his authority in the matter, I would say she is quite clearly putting herself in leadership role.

Or it could be what actually happened in the book, which is her trying to get the leaders of the world to talk him out of one decision, and meanwhile focusing her energies on trying to lead the White Tower.

 

 

The only time I can think of where she seriously opposed his judgment was this one instance, and I think that was a reasonable thing given the circumstances.

 

So you can't actually come up with an example of Egwene supporting Rand? Yeah, I thought so.

In other words, you can't back up what you were claiming about her pattern of behavior. All righty.

 

 

Not knowing the facts never stops Egwene from jumping to conclusions and clinging stubbornly to those conclusions. That's a part of what makes her a bad leader.

Virtually everything we've seen from her is excellent leadership -- particularly her managing to learn and work Aes Sedai politics to the point of getting both factions back together again, and then working to break down the Tower's infernal political culture so it can actually function as a useful organization.

 

But, yeah, she's a bad person because she resisted Rand al'Thor. How dare she!

[randsc]

So which is it? Her thoughts didn't concern gaining advantage for the White Tower? Or they did, and should have, or she would be a shit leader?

 

Honestly, I think you are misreading the intent of the authors. I don't think readers are intended to sympathize with Egwene to the extent you do. The other characters have all shown more growth.

 

Many posters here have accused people who dislike the character of disliking her simply because she is a strong female character. I think that's projection, personally. I think many have a tough time NOT sympthizing with Egwene, because she's a woman.

 

For myself, my favorite characters in this series are Nynaeve and Aviendha. Not favorite female charcters. Favorite characters.

[dexterryu]

You also have to consider that she hasn't done anything to unite/work with the Black Tower. Saidin is cleansed. There is no reason not to. Not sure if this best falls under your sexist point or this one but both fit the mold. I understand that Taim is up to no good but that doesn't mean everyone at the Black Tower is. She need to go back and look at AS from the AoL... Both Male and Female working together. The way she's going there is still going to be a big rift between them.

 

I understand the reasoning of the last 3000 years that men channeling is a bad thing... but the primary reason for it being a bad thing is now fixed. Even more now that Nyneave has figured out a way to clear the damage done by the taint caused before the cleansing.

[NetSlider]

And...if LTT thinks seals need to be broken (along with the only philosopher that we actually know spent some time thinking about it, though that's irrelevant) than the seals should be broken. LTT might not know how to fix the hole completely, but he knows what will happen once seals are broken - they were not even there when he was around. So, I say if LTT says seals go than there they go indeed. Simple as that. Remember, LTT remembers Age of freaking Legends - he knows what he's doing. He does not only remember that age - he was the greatest AS of that age. I think Egghead and all AS of WT combined with all their knowledge combined don't come even close to clean his boots. FINALLY WE HAVE A TRUE LEGEND WALKING ALIVE!

So? That doesn't make him infallible -- this knowledge is useful, but it's still the knowledge of the guy who didn't do it right last time. And besides, none of the characters have any idea that he has all of Lews Therin's memories at this point, and for most of the series, if they knew about his conversations with Lews Therin, they thought he was insane, as Rand himself did.

 

Honestly? Are you really not capable of making a distinction between what you the reader know and what the characters in the book are capable of knowing?

 

 

Couple hours, try 6 freaking books worth.

Uh, seriously? (A) What she did for the last six books wasn't under discussion, it was her conversation with the Windfinders and Wise Ones. (B) She spent that time knitting the Tower back together and getting it under her control. What was she supposed to be doing instead of that? What's the complaint here, then? Other people said she should be using the White Tower's resources for the Last Battle. You're claiming she shouldn't have bothered with the Aes Sedai at all? Because she certainly wouldn't have any ability to do anything with them had she not spent six books getting them under her control. What, should she just have stayed an apprentice Wise One?

 

These anti-Egwene arguments are all completely dumb.

 

Honestly, the knowledge of the person from AoL that had what 300-400 years of experience in leadership and supreme OP knowledge who actually CREATED THE SEALS IN THE FIRST PLACE (HE KNOWS WHAT THEY DO AND HOW THEY DO IT!) in comparison to 19 year old daughter of inn keeper. I'll take the first one.

 

Actually, she wanted to bring all the women who can channel under WT since first thing becoming Amyrlin. That's a fact.

 

As far as anti-Egwene arguments are all completely dumb - if by dumb you mean logically presented with factual backing OF HER OWN POVs that I guess you're right.

[capuga]

Posted this in another thread but thought it was relevant here:

 

The female character that annoys me the most is easily Egwene. This is for two main reasons - her hypocrisy and her easily shifting loyalties.

 

First, the hypocrisy. There are two instances that really bother me. One, she criticizes Elaida (for wanting) and the Black Ajah hunters (for actually performing) an obedience oath. This is after she blackmailed sisters into swearing fealty to her. And with the Three Oaths a spoken vow is almost as binding as one given on the Oath Rod. It would have been nice if we had seen some kind of justification for this contradiction in her POV but she doesn't appear to even consider this. Instead we just get blatant hypocrisy and her holier than thou attitude. Secondly, in tGS several Aes Sedai ask her how she would deal with Rand and she impresses them with rational, thoughtful answers and indicates that by being free he has done many good things such as restoring order in Cairhien and uniting several peoples under one leader. She later criticizes Elaida for trying to kidnap Rand and asks her how she thought he would fulfill any prophesies while locked in the tower. However, the words she uses to impress the Aes Sedai and her own beliefs do not match up. In several of her POVs we see that she believes Rand running around free without a White Tower lease is something that needs to end.

 

Second, the easily shifting loyalties. The first instance of this is how easily she shifts her loyalties from Rand to the Aes Sedai and later the Wise Ones. Rand is a man that she loves and spent almost her whole life thinking she was going to marry. However, after very little time with either group it becomes obvious that she begins to put the interests of Aes Sedai and Wise Ones ahead of Rand. She sides with them during any argument. She participates when Moraine and the Wise Ones spy on him with the power and in his dreams. She won't share any information the Wise Ones or Moraine discuss with Rand. Very early in the books its hard to believe that Egwene ever had any feelings for Rand at all.

 

Then look at how easily her interests shift from the Wise Ones to the Aes Sedai. Look at what she knows up through tFoH. The White Tower is apparently rife with Darkfriends. It is full of undeservedly arrogant women who believe they know everything and act foolishly when anyone shows this is not true (such as the way they treat the Wise Ones in T'A'R). The White Tower is broken. Most Aes Sedai appear to be foolish and incompetent. And how long as she even spent at the White Tower? A couple of months before she was tricked by Liandrin and maybe a couple of months more before she leaves to hunt the Black sisters? She spends at least close to as much time with the Wise Ones. And look at how much more superior that time is. The Wise Ones act with intelligence and competence. They show Egwene respect. They teach her skills that the White Tower hasn't had in hundreds of years. They actually are deserving of respect because of their actions and not just their reputation. Then look at Egwene's plans for these women that she supposedly respects and cares for and that have shown their superiority to Aes Sedai. She plans to subjugate them to the White Tower. Her intention is to tie all channeling groups together. Co-operation amongst channeling groups is a worthy goal, however, her POVs make it obvious that she intends all other groups to be under White Tower leadership and control. This is despite the fact that her own experience should have shown that the White Tower doesn't deserve to lead the Wise Ones. Elayne and Nyneaves reports should have shown her that the Kin and Windfinders also are very competent women. Other than possibly the Kin, all of these groups appear to be at least as competent as the White Tower (and I hate the Sea Folk) and would resent being put in a position of inferiority. But she is Aes Sedai now so neither her childhood love or the Wise Ones that actually earned her respect matter much now. Edit for post-ToM: I found her plan for uniting the channelers to very fair and reasonable for everyone.

 

One more Egwene item that irritates me - her anger at Rand for allowing Asha-man to bond Aes Sedai. Would she have preferred the alternative? Those sisters were sent to kill everyone at the Black Tower. The Asha-man would have been completely justified to have destroyed every sister but did not because of Rand's orders not to harm Aes Sedai. Rand then goes a further step and offers to allow the Aes Sedai to bond Asha-man to equal out the numbers. However, this isn't good enough for Egwene because the almighty White Tower must be superior to everyone else.

 

By the end of tGS it is hard to argue that Egwene is not awesome. But I never felt that her character deserved that awesomeness. I compare it to a person with poor money management skills that wins the lottery. You can't argue that they're rich, but the didn't really earn that money.

 

Note for those who feel all anti-Egwene arguers are Rand fanboys: None of my arguments above reflect in any way how I feel about Rand. Egwene's actions can be judged as distastful to many regardless of whether or not I like Rand and think he makes mistakes.

[Exy]

Honestly, I think you are misreading the intent of the authors. I don't think readers are intended to sympathize with Egwene to the extent you do. The other characters have all shown more growth.

Are you kidding? She was always RJ's favorite. How many times have people pointed out that she's practically a Mary Sue? (I always found the speculation that she was a lot like Harriet sort of interesting.) Egwene was always depicted as too perfect -- she's 19, the Aiel adore her and want her back (making her one of approximately three Wetlanders the Aiel have ever admired), she's masterfully united the Tower, she basically fought the Seanchan off alone, she has a talent lost to the Aes Sedai for 400 years. RJ always loved Egwene way too much.

 

You are not supposed to hate her for disagreeing with the Lord Dragon. Not that authorial intent really matters in how you should read a work, but this was not the author's intent.

 

 

Many posters here have accused people who dislike the character of disliking her simply because she is a strong female character. I think that's projection, personally. I think many have a tough time NOT sympthizing with Egwene, because she's a woman.

I must have missed that post. It's interesting that you immediately jump to talk about sexism as the motivation here . . .

[randsc]

I must have missed that post. It's interesting that you immediately jump to talk about sexism as the motivation here . . .

 

Well, I can see where it would be easy to miss. There couldn't have been more than a couple dozen such posts...

 

This is just a pre-emptive strike. Virtually every time I or anyone else suggest that Egwene or Elayne ain't the greatest thing since sliced bread, we're accused of sexism.

[Jack Shaftoe]

In other words, you can't back up what you were claiming about her pattern of behavior.

 

Oh, yeah? Let's see. Egwene disagreeing with Rand's decisions:

 

- He threatens to hang any Aiel who murders or steals from Cairhienians. Egwene consider him arrogant and is appalled.

- He wants to negotiate with the Salidar AS. Egwene refuses to tell him where they are.

- Some AS swear fealty to him. Egwene is appalled, despite having blackmailed other AS to do the same to her. Hypocrisy, thy name is Egwene...

- Rand wants Elayne to come claim the throne of Andor ASAP. Egwene sends her to Ebou Dar instead, risking a civil war.

 

And yes, maybe in some of those examples Egwene might be considered right to do what wha she does. But she always criticizes Rand's decision, whatever they happen to be, often on the basis that they come from him. For instance when Elayne and the Wise Ones back up Rand's threat to hang even clan chiefs, Egwene quickly switches her position on the subject because apparently they know better than Rand but of course don't know better than Egwene so she is free to disagree with them all the time. If you don't see that pattern of behaviour, I am really wondering if we read the same books.

 

By the end of tGS it is hard to argue that Egwene is not awesome. But I never felt that her character deserved that awesomeness. I compare it to a person with poor money management skills that wins the lottery. You can't argue that they're rich, but the didn't really earn that money.

 

Exactly.

[didymos]

RE: Rand threatening to hang people...go re-read tFoH: she doesn't disagree with the idea of hanging. She just thinks, after watching the way Rand gave the order, that he is starting to become too arrogant. In fact, in her POV we get "a good thing, if he kept these men from doing to other cities what Couladin had done to Taien and Selean. She told herself that." So, it made her uneasy, but she thought it was necessary. She then pretended otherwise to the Wise One's (and poorly) because she thought they were upset with the notion, but to herself thinks "what he had said only sounded just".

 

Look: I'm all for picking on Egwene or anyone else when they do something you find genuinely wrong or foolish or whatever, but at least try to get the facts straight when you list the "crimes" for which you will excoriate them. Nynaeve was the one who was actually upset about Rand hanging brigands and suchlike when she heard about it, and that because it conflicted with her "gentle boy" image of him.

[Jack Shaftoe]

You didn't quote all the relevant parts of her PoV: "She only wished he could do it without showing more arrogance every day. How soon before he expected her to obey him as Moiraine did? Or all Aes Sedai?". Maybe it's just me but that's hardly support. Egwene supports the idea of Rand preventing further pillaging but doesn't really trust his judgment or his capabilities as a leader. Because she has such a vast experience leading whole peoples herself, you see...

 

Not to mention it's quite hilarious to see Egwene call anyone arrogant. Pot, kettle and all that.

 

She tried to pretend otherwise to the Wise One's because she thought they were upset with the notion

 

Which makes her a hypocrite.

[Jillain Sanche]

Many posters here have accused people who dislike the character of disliking her simply because she is a strong female character. I think that's projection, personally. I think many have a tough time NOT sympthizing with Egwene, because she's a woman. For myself, my favorite characters in this series are Nynaeve and Aviendha. Not favorite female charcters. Favorite characters.

 

Nicely said and so noted.

 

But yeah, there are a few who seem to only dislike females and only like the male characters. (No threads entitled "Men you find annoying, for example.) That is therefore either sexism or simply immaturity. The former you would suspect from a certain choice of language in attacking her, or other females. It is the way in which a criticism is stated that reflects (rightly or wrongly) one's own perspective. (And there are straight men who dislike strong women.) In other words, we are all responsible for how we are interpreted.

 

On the point of how Egwene has not reached out to the Black Tower, we all know that the BT is headed for an internal fight.

And secondly, she and everyone else has run out of time before Tarmon Gaidon. She has not yet prepared the WT for the next Seanchan attack, which will use Traveling which she should know based on their capture of Elaida.

 

Everything is coming to a head!!! AMOL is going to be totally explosive and wild like an extreme roller coaster ride.

[didymos]

You didn't quote all the relevant parts of her PoV: "She only wished he could do it without showing more arrogance every day. How soon before he expected her to obey him as Moiraine did? Or all Aes Sedai?". Maybe it's just me but that's hardly support. Egwene supports the idea of Rand preventing further pillaging but doesn't really trust his judgment or his capabilities as a leader. Because she has such a vast experience leading whole peoples herself, you see...

 

Not to mention it's quite hilarious to see Egwene call anyone arrogant. Pot, kettle and all that.

 

She tried to pretend otherwise to the Wise One's because she thought they were upset with the notion

 

Which makes her a hypocrite.

 

I quoted what was relevant to what I was actually disputing: that she was appalled. I thought that was obvious given it's what I focused on.

 

Unless you meant she was appalled by the arrogance, maybe? If so, then OK, I read you wrong on that.

[anotherfingolfin]

@ randsc

 

i really think you have it wrong. it is my fear that we are supposed to be rooting for her. i dunno, i think it is unlikely that there will be some kind of pay-off this late in the game. everything indicates that her self-righteous ship will just keep on sailing.

 

@ jack and mark grayson

 

my feelings exactly on her character not having really earned her coolness at the end of TGS. i really hope randsc is right, but i think her development is destined to be the most implausible in the series. also gawyn falls under that mantle of not having earned his cool. as someone posted on another thread, if a character (egwene) makes you sympathise with gawyn, that's saying a lot!

 

@ exy

 

you really have not addressed many arguments directly. if your point here is to WIN the argument and prove a point, then you are playing it like an Indian politician. kudos.

my biggest gripe with your arguments is that you are contradicting yourself. either she is going to have a pivotal role in TG or she is not. If she is, then she has not even given it enough though, let alone action. If she is NOT going to take a leading role, then she really should defer a little more to the prophesised messiah figure who is going to be doing the leading.

also, i thought you were making somewhat valid points initially, but when you claimed to have found nothing sexist about her attitudes towards men, that randsc eloquently elucidated in his first post, i realised that maybe we would just have to agree to disagree.

 

as to why people hate egwene so vocally? it's because of the arrogant, self-righteous superiority complex she tends to have. yes, i think haters DO pick on her shortcomings more than on those of other characters, but that is because her POV's do nothing to indicate anything other than what her outward behaviour makes abundantly clear.

 

I quoted what was relevant to what I was actually disputing: that she was appalled. I thought that was obvious given it's what I focused on.

 

Unless you meant she was appalled by the arrogance, maybe? If so, then OK, I read you wrong on that.

 

i think he was just trying to cite examples of her opposing stuff rand has done, as opposed to being wholeheartedly supportive.

[capuga]

@ randsc

 

i really think you have it wrong. it is my fear that we are supposed to be rooting for her. i dunno, i think it is unlikely that there will be some kind of pay-off this late in the game. everything indicates that her self-righteous ship will just keep on sailing.

 

@ jack and mark grayson

 

my feelings exactly on her character not having really earned her coolness at the end of TGS. i really hope randsc is right, but i think her development is destined to be the most implausible in the series. also gawyn falls under that mantle of not having earned his cool. as someone posted on another thread, if a character (egwene) makes you sympathise with gawyn, that's saying a lot!

 

@ exy

 

you really have not addressed many arguments directly. if your point here is to WIN the argument and prove a point, then you are playing it like an Indian politician. kudos.

my biggest gripe with your arguments is that you are contradicting yourself. either she is going to have a pivotal role in TG or she is not. If she is, then she has not even given it enough though, let alone action. If she is NOT going to take a leading role, then she really should defer a little more to the prophesised messiah figure who is going to be doing the leading.

also, i thought you were making somewhat valid points initially, but when you claimed to have found nothing sexist about her attitudes towards men, that randsc eloquently elucidated in his first post, i realised that maybe we would just have to agree to disagree.

 

as to why people hate egwene so vocally? it's because of the arrogant, self-righteous superiority complex she tends to have. yes, i think haters DO pick on her shortcomings more than on those of other characters, but that is because her POV's do nothing to indicate anything other than what her outward behaviour makes abundantly clear.

 

I think this is an important point here. For some reason any discussion about Egwene's faults ends up turning into some kind of comparison with Rand. So I will use him as an example. Do I think Rand has made mistakes (probably even more than Egwene)? Yes, I do. He has made bad decisions. He doesn't effeciently utilize the assets available to him. He is unnessearily rude to people around him. Etc..

 

The difference, and I think the reason most people find Rand to be a more sympathetic character, is that we can see his points of view and understand his intentions are noble. His whole focus is on saving the world at the Last Battle, as opposed to most of those around him that are constantly just looking out for themselves and their respective people. He conquers lands so that everyone is united because he feels that that is what he is supposed to do as this prophesied savior. He doesn't do it because he wants to rule, or even necessarily thinks he is the best for the job. In fact, when there is a ruler that he can trust and that he knows will ally with him (Elayne and Andor) for the Last Battle he withdraws as the leader. Berelain voluntarily allies herself with him. He issues orders and uses her as an asset but you do not see him conquering or imposing his rule upon Mayene.

 

So in his POVs we see him make mistakes and be arrogant sometimes but we also see his noble and selfless intentions. He also doesn't come across as maddeningly sure of his always rightness (obviously this is my opinion). I just don't get these same feelings when I read Egwene's POVs so I find her less sympathetic.

 

And I don't need to compare her to anyone else to feel that her POVs show someone that is too narrowly focused on just the White Tower's place in the world as well as her other irratations that I have previously posted.

[Treemaster]

Fun read. Both sides make valid points. But what settles the debate for me is to go back to Egwene's behavior in the Eye of the World. From the very beginning, she is belittling Rand, when she is supposedly going to end up marrying him. No wonder Rand can't figure out if he should look forward to seeing her or not in the very first chapter of the book. And her behavior doesn't change at any point. I can't recall a single instance of her approving anything that Rand, or anyone else for that matter, does. That includes the other female characters. Her behavior toward Nynaeve in the Fires of Heaven is nothing short of appalling -- dressing Nynaeve down for doing the EXACT SAME THING she is doing, which is running around Tel'aron'rhiod without permission.

 

Egwene IS a good leader, and she is tough as nails, but she is also a very unsympathetic character. She can be both at the sime time; the two traits are not contradictory. If anything, they are complementary. (Not everyone is as awesome as Perrin.)

[didymos]

I quoted what was relevant to what I was actually disputing: that she was appalled. I thought that was obvious given it's what I focused on.

 

Unless you meant she was appalled by the arrogance, maybe? If so, then OK, I read you wrong on that.

 

i think he was just trying to cite examples of her opposing stuff rand has done, as opposed to being wholeheartedly supportive.

 

As I said earlier, that's fine: I just want those examples to be accurate if you're gonna rag on somebody for them. I read the one example about hanging as him getting on her case for being appalled by the idea of hanging in and of itself. Which is supported by the comment later in his post about her switching her position when the WOs approved. But Egwene approved all along. She then tried to mollify the WOs by saying "Oh, well, maybe you can talk him out of it..." because she thought this was going to be a serious problem. Of course, this then gets jumped on as a prime example of her hypocrisy. And yeah, it was a little by virtue of being a pretense (but it's not as if every other character in the book hasn't engaged in very mild deceptions like this time and time again), but the fact is that she was actually trying to help Rand there by defusing what she thought was a potential dust-up with the WOs. She was worried about the Aiel possibly turning on him over things like this. And, it certainly wasn't hypocritical in the sense that she ever actually intended to go against Rand on the hanging issue.

 

I.e., it's not an example of her opposing Rand at all.

[David Selig]

Personally I am not one of those readers who automatically dislike anyone who has a difference of opinion with Rand. Rand may be the professed saviour and all, but he's not immune to mistakes and bad decisions. Nynaeve standing up to him when he was about to balefire the Borderlanders in TGS for example prevented a disaster.

 

What I dislike though, are those characters who stand up to him for no reason except their own arrogance and belief that they know better than him. I mean if you are objecting to the saviour of mankind, you better have a good reason for that - superior knowledge in a particular area for example, or a well thought out plan. But usually Egwene has none of these and just assume Rand is wrong since he is a man and he just can't know more than Egwene, Miss Know-it-all. This is the height of arrogance. Moiraine summarised her personality at one point really well "The girl knew so little and thought she knew so much."

 

I have no problem with her objecting to Rand breaking the seals per se. Nothing wrong with presenting a different plan for discussion. But she has no plan at all. She just assumes "Rand is wrong, I am right", as usual, and goes straight ahead with planning to stop him. She didn't spare a single thought on developing an alternative plan. When you consider that Rand is the person chosen for the job of defeating the DO by the Pattern itself, to go against his plan without a plan of your own and without any argumentation to back up your position, is extremely arrogant.

 

Apart from that, why I don't think she's a good person:

1)she's an extreme hypocrite - examples are endless. One of the most blatant was already mentioned - her indignation over sisters being forced to swear to obey to the BA hunters, when she did essentially the same thing to Nisao, Myrelle and co.

 

Another one is when she brutalised Nynaeve in T'A"R by summoning two brutes to tear her clothes and give her a few scars, claiming that Nynaeve needed to be taught not to risk too much in T'A'R, yet at the same time Egwene was constantly going against the instrcuions of her teachers and risking even more. And she did all of this to cover her lie to the Wise Ones. This incident alone is enough to make it a character I dislike.

 

2) She's really sexist even by WoT standards

 

3)She's willing to hurt her closest frineds to achieve her personal goals. The Nynaeve incident from above, the way she treated Gawyn, etc. Her ruthless ambition is the most important thing for her.

 

And please don't tell me I dislike strong female characters. Elayne is my joint favourite character, I like Nynaeve a lot and all kinds of minor charaters who fit the type - Siuan, Moiraine, Amys, etc.

[DemandredFO]

Alright people, if one of the mods hasn't said it, let's stop using swear words of any kind; to be clear, I hate Egwene as much as the next person.

Rand has made mistakes but his is a special case. He had memories coming from nowhere, had to channel through the taint and was told that he would save and break the world. It's like Grady said, I was fighting to die, now I can live or something to that affect. That by no means excuses Rand but they are mitigating circumstances.

Egwene has had training from wise ones and some from Nyneave. Yet she seems to have dived head first into AS, forgetting everything she was taught. You say Rand has commited crimes; well Egwene's are just as great and with less cause. What about the borderlands, without Rand and Lan there would be no defence. They have travelling or skimming send some of the more powerful greens with angreal and sa'angreal to defend the borderlands. What of Perrin; what she wanted to do him was worse than his thoughts in WH thru KoD when rescuing Faile. He said the world could burn but he did good by accident. If Perrin hadn't been trained he most likely would've ended up like Nicola or worse. He is one of the Taveren yet she wished to leave him to any passing DF or chosen. I daresay Messaana would've gotten points for balefiring Perrin. What of Nyneave's test; she was deliberately cruel and her only saving grace is that it made Nyneave more a servant of All. Everyone says the tower library is filled with knowledge yet Egwene opposes Rand without alternatives.