Discuss Egwene

[Nion]

But then again Egwene thinks the very Pattern its self is wrong and must bend to her almighty.. awesomeness.

 

I actually don't have a problem with this....the problem (getting meta for an instant) is that the BOOKs think Egwene is always right and always awesome.

 

The most common defence of her behavior is "Well, she is no less arrogant than Rand !!!". Well true, but every single other character in the entire series is ALWAYS harping about how Rand is going down the wrong path, all the mistakes he is making and how he needs to change etc.

Entire books and storylines have been devoted to Rand descent into darkness and possible last minute redemption.

And Towers of Midnight was nothing except a giant world-wide apology tour. Every single scene started out with "Oh I'm sorry for all the mistakes I made, let me make it up to you..."

 

To me personally (and I draw the line here I won't project onto anyone else) the most hair-pulling frustration inducing part of reading the Egwene storyline is that no matter how badly she behaves, or how awfully she treats people, or any mistakes she makes, Egwene ALWAYS comes out on top, and more importantly is ALWAYS treated as the most-awesome-thing-ever by everyone around her for seemingly no reason at all.

The only person to oppose her, Elaida, was quickly reduced to a semi-psychotic blubbering alcoholic who will be treated as a wild dog for the rest of her life.

 

And the new theory being bandied about, this supposed Halima-compulsion makes we want to stab myself because what it essentially says is "Oh no, Egwene is WAY to awesome to ever behave badly on her own, she must have been secretly brainwashed !" thus even further removing the possibility that a particularly egregious mary-sue character is called to account.

 

Another example of this is the Egwene/Gawyn storyline. At first the situation seemed rather simple. He needed to learn to treat her like the Amyrlin in public, and she needed to learn to treat him like an equal in private (or at least treat him closer to a boyfriend/husband if that's what she wants, and foreign royalty if not). (She also needs to treat other people who are close to her with some respect. Seems to be a recurring theme.)

 

So, Gawyn ponders and broods and has several importand conversations, he learns and grows as a character, and in the end decides that saving her life is the most important thing. And so he pretty much dies saving her life, until he's warder bond ex machina'd.

 

Meanwhile Egwene is a jerk to the guy she claims to love until he flees the city, and then he comes back and saves her life, with magic providing her with a perfect relationship for free. The end.

[SuperFade]

I hate to say it, but Egwene does have a number of common Mary Sue traits; Unconditional admiration from everyone she meets, very high strength in all five aspects of the Power, never having to apologise for any wrongdoings and a sudden knack for manipulating women hundreds of years older and more experienced than her. I also seem to recall it being said that she bears a striking resemblance to RJ's wife...

 

Of course, I could just be mistaken and the above could just be coincidence. But Egghead turning out to be Suetiful All Along (Damn you TVTropes!) hoonestly wouldn't surprise me at this point.

[FistBelowTheWaist]

Egwene is a tool. She's a power-grabbing infant that has been captured by half the sadistic cultures in the whole story. Her story is fascinating to me because of the flaws I perceive in her. I don't see her as 'great' simply because she has endured what noone before her seems to have endured. She seems inhuman as a result. No one subjected to the harshest treatment, societies, thought patterns and plots of the most devious cultures in Randland comes out glowing white and pure. In order for her to understand how to hunt and trap Forsaken, she must delve into what it is to be Forsaken or black ajah.

 

And so far, she has not disappointed me in that. She's manipulative, cunning, and power hungry in almost every aspect of her life. She certainly has my vote for Naeblis if ol Dark Dude wins! She will have united the WT, even so far as to oath bind them to HER. She's tying strings to every society of women who can touch the source. She's bonded nobility to her with Gawyn. She's has an army. She's working on ways to negate the 3 oaths (under guise of discovering black ajah hiding amongst them). She has designs on freeing captive women in the Seanchan Empire. And the list goes on...

 

She would be a perfect Forsaken if they would have focused more effort on her instead of wasting time chasing Mat, Perrin and Rand. Hell, she is the only one among them actively SEEKING a position of power with plans beyond the Last Battle. Forsaken material (mold/template) if you ask me.

[randychoy]

I can accept that Rand manipulated Egwene to do his dirty/busy work of gathering the nation's armies together for him. But I still don't get how Egwene and the monarchs come to the same conclusion that they need to bring all of their forces. Rand said to Egwene that he was going to break the seals. He didn't add, "and just try to stop me!" Either he changes his mind and everyone is relieved, or he doesn't and then what? Do they dare attack tDR, the one destined to save the world, whom they have fealty towards; someone who can destroy them or gateway straight to SG? Does this make sense to everyone else or is it a contrived means of rounding up the armies and leaving Andor defenseless?

[James71]

Does this make sense to everyone else or is it a contrived means of rounding up the armies and leaving Andor defenseless?

 

I think that the author just needed a silly reason to gather the armies and this is a basic scheme by Rand to get Egwene to do it.

Rand looks sort of clever doing it.

 

It doesn't makes sense for Egwene to do this, but the author wrote it that way thinking that it is clever, when it isn't.

[Kahlika]

Yeah, you're going to need to show your working on that one.

 

She will have united the WT, even so far as to oath bind them to HER.

 

Reuniting the tower is a bad thing how?

 

Where exactly did she force any Aes Sedai to swear on the oath rod to her?

 

She's tying strings to every society of women who can touch the source.

 

Yes, alliances are a terrible thing. There's no reason at all those women who channel could benefit from working together. It's far better to have them divided and easier pickings for the Seanchan.

 

What's wrong with creating an alliance? What's wrong with how Egwene went about it exactly?

 

She's has an army.

 

The Hall has an army.

 

She's working on ways to negate the 3 oaths (under guise of discovering black ajah hiding amongst them).

 

lol wut?

 

Seriously you just made this one up, I genuinely have no idea where it comes from.

 

Egwene is a big supporter of the oaths.

 

She has designs on freeing captive women in the Seanchan Empire.

 

How dare she oppose slavery!

 

Seriously what's wrong with that exactly?

 

Forsaken material (mold/template) if you ask me.

 

Why exactly? Seeing as all your other reasons don't actually make any sense. I must've missed the chapters where she slaughtered millions of innocents and so on. Could you provide some quotes at least?

[Elan Tedronai]

egwene is respected and admired by everyone she meets because she's bloody awesome. To come out of nowhere and be the leader of the female aes sedai in less than 2 years, wiping out the black ajah and taking down a forsaken is simply.....RESPECT! all those shadow plots in the white tower has come to nought. It doesn't help the shadow are bunch of hopeless tools but she practically spat at shaitan's plans in the face

 

It must gall alot of people that she's a tough, demanding, determined woman. I can't wait when she kicks the seanchan ass again in the next book

[Darth Krewl]

egwene is respected and admired by everyone she meets because she's bloody awesome. To come out of nowhere and be the leader of the female aes sedai in less than 2 years, wiping out the black ajah and taking down a forsaken is simply......RESPECT!

 

Hmm...no, Egwene did not rise to become the leader of the Aes Sedai based on her merits alone. The Forsaken manipulated things so that she would be raised Amyrlin of the rebels, thinking that they could control her. This is why they planted Halima as her personal masseuse and there's no way to know if she's not operating under some form of hypnosis, if not outright Compulsion.

 

You do know that people can be programmed via hypnotic trance in their sleep, right? I recommend Huxley's Brave New World to get a good idea on how this sort of brain-control programming can work. And, since Halima gave Egwene such headaches as the result of her rubdowns, mind-control is very possible and should not be ruled out, at least until we have read Egwene's deeds in AMoL.

[Byzantine279]

It was not compulsion, or at least if it was it was done in such a way that it did not cause her original change of viewpoint, which makes me suspect there was no compulsion, Halima was simply trying to disrupt Egwene's dreams and keep the Aes Sedai under watch.

 

I wonder how Egwene will react when Rand goes "thanks for the help getting everyone here, I would never have had the time." I vote she falls over in shock. Rand's educated background is likely somewhat like our college/university education, considering the AoL sounds like it had tech very similar to ours, even though it was based around different principles.

[Durinax]

It was not compulsion, or at least if it was it was done in such a way that it did not cause her original change of viewpoint, which makes me suspect there was no compulsion, Halima was simply trying to disrupt Egwene's dreams and keep the Aes Sedai under watch.

 

I wonder how Egwene will react when Rand goes "thanks for the help getting everyone here, I would never have had the time." I vote she falls over in shock. Rand's educated background is likely somewhat like our college/university education, considering the AoL sounds like it had tech very similar to ours, even though it was based around different principles.

actually I coudl see it being a kind of compulsion that makes her against rand, or make her believe he has done criminal things.

 

egwene is respected and admired by everyone she meets because she's bloody awesome. To come out of nowhere and be the leader of the female aes sedai in less than 2 years, wiping out the black ajah and taking down a forsaken is simply.....RESPECT! all those shadow plots in the white tower has come to nought. It doesn't help the shadow are bunch of hopeless tools but she practically spat at shaitan's plans in the face

 

It must gall alot of people that she's a tough, demanding, determined woman. I can't wait when she kicks the seanchan ass again in the next book

there is a difference between repecting a person and being a brain dead drone who totally obeys her like most AS seem to be now since we never see anyone second guessing of egwene by anyone (except maybe elayne,nyn). As for taking out mesaana, I personally feel that Egwene got very lucky she did not have to fight one of hte female forsaken who where very good at TAR, and that this should most be chalked up to perrins interfeering. Just as Nyn deserves quite a bit of recognition for using Mogh to help rand in TAR

[Darth Krewl]

It was not compulsion, or at least if it was it was done in such a way that it did not cause her original change of viewpoint, which makes me suspect there was no compulsion, Halima was simply trying to disrupt Egwene's dreams and keep the Aes Sedai under watch.

 

Wait a minute, you sure of this? 'cause I don't remember myself if that was all Halima was supposed to do.

 

But, in that case, the Forsaken are more inept that I had thought. Because, if not Compulsion outright, then I would've found a way to get Egwene under some sort of mind-control hypnotic trance and even embed a keyword in her head that would lead her to say/do something when triggered, a la Manchurian Candidate. Seems pretty simple when you have so much time around her and all alone, as her masseuse. Halima could've learned to use a massage technique to get Egwene so relaxed that it would be easy for the girl to fall into that sleepy, trance-like state when under hypnosis and then you plant the thoughts in her head. Easy pickings, IMO.

 

What is all that vastly superior knowledge from the Age of Legends for, if you're not gonna take advantage by using it on the "primitives" of the Third Age? Graendal was supposed to be a genius in psychology (and master at Compulsion, to boot), for crying out loud! And Halima was working with/for her, as shown in ToM. Can't believe the woman wouldn't know such basic mind-control/brainwashing techniques and provide Halima with instructions as to how to use them. Especially since I agree with your take on the AoL and believe that knowledge of such methods should be commonplace in that time.

 

I wonder how Egwene will react when Rand goes "thanks for the help getting everyone here, I would never have had the time." I vote she falls over in shock. Rand's educated background is likely somewhat like our college/university education, considering the AoL sounds like it had tech very similar to ours, even though it was based around different principles.

 

heh heh...I agree wholeheartedly with this...

[Agelmar]

I find Egwene in some ways the most infuriating of the main characters. She is alternatively awesome (the entire Aiel apprentice storyline, her captivity in the WT, the Seanchan raid, the Tel' fight against Mesaana), foolish (every fight she jumped into in the first half dozen books, putting herself in a position to be captured, instantly deciding Rand's plan was a horrible idea and must be stopped), and infuriating (the general haughtiness and arrogance of most of the Aes Sedai, upbraiding the woman actually helping the Dragon Reborn (Nynaeve) for her impertinence while ignoring the dangerous loose cannon (Elayne), pretty much every encounter ever with Gawyn). Which results in some strong and strange opinions about her (seriously, Compulsion doesn't work that way). I think much of the brilliance of her politic maneuvering has been underappreciated (the ends to which she has used some of that maneuvering, on the other hand, are deserving of some criticism). She still has time to pull herself fully into awesome territory before it's all over (as Nynaeve already has). I would like to give her the benefit of the doubt and believe she has some detailed defensive plan with elaborate contingencies prepared for the Seanchan attack, but she's no Gareth Bryne...

[Elan Tedronai]

egwene is respected and admired by everyone she meets because she's bloody awesome. To come out of nowhere and be the leader of the female aes sedai in less than 2 years, wiping out the black ajah and taking down a forsaken is simply......RESPECT!

 

Hmm...no, Egwene did not rise to become the leader of the Aes Sedai based on her merits alone. The Forsaken manipulated things so that she would be raised Amyrlin of the rebels, thinking that they could control her. This is why they planted Halima as her personal masseuse and there's no way to know if she's not operating under some form of hypnosis, if not outright Compulsion.

 

You do know that people can be programmed via hypnotic trance in their sleep, right? I recommend Huxley's Brave New World to get a good idea on how this sort of brain-control programming can work. And, since Halima gave Egwene such headaches as the result of her rubdowns, mind-control is very possible and should not be ruled out, at least until we have read Egwene's deeds in AMoL.

 

 

all the more to be impressed by egwene since she made the shadow's decision to support her and play her against elaida even more stupid.

 

and egwene did rise up alot due to her merits. to deny that is to deny reality.

[blazetheearth]

egwene is respected and admired by everyone she meets because she's bloody awesome. To come out of nowhere and be the leader of the female aes sedai in less than 2 years, wiping out the black ajah and taking down a forsaken is simply.....RESPECT! all those shadow plots in the white tower has come to nought. It doesn't help the shadow are bunch of hopeless tools but she practically spat at shaitan's plans in the face

 

It must gall alot of people that she's a tough, demanding, determined woman. I can't wait when she kicks the seanchan ass again in the next book

 

It does not gall me at all the she is a 'tough, demanding, determined [young] woman'. It galls me that despite these things she is a whiny brat who abuses her 'friends' (that's in quotes because I don't think she really has any anymore) in order to keep secret that she refuses to follow the rules that she has sworn to follow.

 

Rules that were set down for her by tough, demanding, and determined women (all of whose characters I like and admire because of how they are written).

Had she not been a lying, sneaking little chit, torturing Nynaeve would not have happened. All of the good actions you quote do not make up for the fact that she gave her word and broke it (again, even after breaking it and being caught the first time.

 

 

Take the sexism stuff to a different thread. Most of the posts on here cite the flaws in her personality not because she is tough, or demanding, or determined, and I have not seen a post yet about people not liking her because those traits are present in a female in the books.

 

Unless you mean that it galls the characters in the books? Because I would really like the reference cited where it is said that someone (anyone, man or woman) thinks or says that about Egwene.

 

The ONLY reason that no one in the books bashes her is because they cannot see what we do (i.e. what is going on in her head during her PoV's). And when you think about those characters that think she is all that and a bag of chips, almost all are people most of us would not like to associate with day to day, much less take a reference from them. Most are AS, and you cannot find a larger group of self-centered, self-aggrandizing, arrogant, and conniving people in the series or the Real World except maybe politicians).

 

Maybe that's it!! Elan, are you a politician? That would explain a lot about your posts.

[Durinax]

I think its odd that people sometimes chalk up peoples dislike/hatred of egwene to sexism or some such. It makes no sense to me. personally I believe that is a last resort card, where they have nothing to support their side and instead must resort to a personal attack. but thats my 2 cents

[Darth Krewl]

all the more to be impressed by egwene since she made the shadow's decision to support her and play her against elaida even more stupid.

 

and egwene did rise up alot due to her merits. to deny that is to deny reality.

 

Not really.

 

I can think of many ways to have manipulated this girl the way the Emperor manipulated young and naive Queen Amidala in Star Wars, for instance, or the way the Dark Lord Sauron influenced not one, not two, but nine fully grown kings of men in the LotR or the way Queen Cersei Lannister/Baratheon manipulated young Lady Sansa Stark in ASoI&F.

 

The fact that the Forsaken are, to this point, some of the most feeble and stupid (your word, not mine) villains in the history of fantasy doesn't make the child Amyrlin worthy of praise in any way, shape or form.

[Hadilmir]

I think its odd that people sometimes chalk up peoples dislike/hatred of egwene to sexism or some such. It makes no sense to me. personally I believe that is a last resort card, where they have nothing to support their side and instead must resort to a personal attack. but thats my 2 cents

I don't remember the sexism card being mentioned much at all in the old thread... We just insulted each other instead of trying for the moral high ground, and I'm pretty sure more was accomplished that way.

 

Maybe that's it!! Elan, are you a politician? That would explain a lot about your posts.

I laughed, hard.

[Darth Krewl]

Maybe that's it!! Elan, are you a politician? That would explain a lot about your posts.

 

LOL yeah! This is just hilarious...

[randsc]

Maybe that's it!! Elan, are you a politician? That would explain a lot about your posts.

 

LOL yeah! This is just hilarious...

 

Elan's not a politician. She's either a very young woman, probably still in her teens, or an even younger boy experiencing his first fictional crush.

[Jon Paul]

and egwene did rise up alot due to her merits. to deny that is to deny reality.

 

I suppose being able to adapt is a merit.. shame it leaves her being completely hollow as a person though.

[Kidicaris]

all the more to be impressed by egwene since she made the shadow's decision to support her and play her against elaida even more stupid.

 

and egwene did rise up alot due to her merits. to deny that is to deny reality.

 

Not really.

 

I can think of many ways to have manipulated this girl the way the Emperor manipulated young and naive Queen Amidala in Star Wars, for instance, or the way the Dark Lord Sauron influenced not one, not two, but nine fully grown kings of men in the LotR or the way Queen Cersei Lannister/Baratheon manipulated young Lady Sansa Stark in ASoI&F.

 

The fact that the Forsaken are, to this point, some of the most feeble and stupid (your word, not mine) villains in the history of fantasy doesn't make the child Amyrlin worthy of praise in any way, shape or form.

 

I am so torn over this. On the one hand her underdog story up until ToM was some of the most interesting writing going on, imo. Then on the other hand, once she became top dog the characteristics that helped her survive the political tug of war started to get in the way of my enjoyment of Egwene. Honestly, I felt her character got a little righteous in tGS too, but in ToM it's a runaway train.

 

We can only hope Sanche can be her living ghost of Christmas Future, but it looks like our willful Blue with the second chance hasn't changed much except dress sizes. I don't know how much time will be given to this storyline in the last book, but it's going to take a LOT of Rand Sedai to set our little sisters back on course.

 

I don't want to minimize Egwene's accomplishments though, even if her character development has led her to where she is now. Yes she was only put into her position by the Shadow and manipulative senior sister as a link to the Dragon Reborn and way to keep the Aes Sedai divided. But she kept herself from being discarded once those forces decided it was time for their young straw (wo)man to go. Egwene--with the help of Sanche, played a dangerous game and won. In the Tower she has surrounded herself with a group of mostly capable and sensible women (Nyneave, Sanche, Saerin, Silviana) and seems to be maintaining a lead over her AS rivals. Now if only she'd step off her soapbox and into reality, the End Times are here and the Tower seems to be either neglectful or in denial of its sworn duty. Greens? Yellows? Browns? Greys? I'm talking to you. It seems like the only ajah that has been doing ANYthing useful lately is the Black.

[moratcorlm]

Elan's not a politician. She's either a very young woman, probably still in her teens, or an even younger boy experiencing his first fictional crush.

This kind of personal attack is completely uncalled-for, both as an attack on Elan and as an even broader-ranging slur on women and young boys who don't necessarily want to be associated with Elan. And while I realize the way I phrased that sounds like a joke, I'm completely serious, and speaking from the anti-Egwene side of the aisle at that.

[randsc]

"even broader-ranging slur on women and young boys who don't necessarily want to be associated with Elan."

 

So, what, then? He/she's a trolloc?

[moratcorlm]

Possibly. I'm just saying, there's plenty wrong with what s/he says to criticize without digging into who or what s/he is.

[Elan Tedronai]

i really don't understand the need to get personal. I mean there's nothing wrong with arguing with passion from your side of the debate but getting personal over the rights and wrongs of a fictional charater in a fictional world says i think alot about you.