Moiraine

[MoonBeams]

I don't think the man was Moridin because we see that even the Forsaken don't get special treatment from the Snakes and Foxes, they have to make bargains just like everybody else. Luc/Isam is the only one I know who can go in there (remembering when Perrin chased him to the tower in a previous book) and come back out.

[deathgate]

If Thom wasn't in love with Moiraine then why would he risk his life for her and be moping around for two books? No this was no surprise, there were many hints along the way.

[AutomatedTeller]

btw - the idea that there was no way to see it coming, even for mat, is just nuts.

 

From her letter:

 

"My dearest Thom,

 

There are many words I would like to to write to you, words from my heart....

 

... May the Light illumine you and give you joy, my dearest Thom, whether or not we ever see one another again."

 

If I remember correctly, the letter made Mat uncomfortable.

 

he probably should have seen it coming. It's certainly shouldn't be a surprise to us.

[Deadsy]

My thought was that it was Slayer, too...

 

but wouldn't Slayer have tormented Moiraine? Luc's sister married Moiraine's brother, so there's some family bit there, and Slayer's never seemed like one to pass up some good torture if he could do it.

 

I think i agree that it was Moridin looking for Lanfear.

 

He wouldn't have had any power there. But people have theorized that he destroyed the Tear doorway so she couldn't be rescued.

[f3llyn]

Question is, what 3 questions did she ask the snakes in TGS and what did she ask for from the foxes?? Min's viewing said that without Moiraine, Rand would fail. She may be the 3rd person to meld the flows with Rand and Callandor. I think the man who came to the TOG and said Moiraine was not the one he was looking for was Luc/Isam, he is the only one I know who could enter the Tower w/o using a doorframe.

 

I think you mean TSR for her questions. And, I have no clue :)

 

I've felt since the prophecy that he'd use callandor with Nynaeve and Moiraine. There's no other pair that would be as poignant to me. He already loves Aviendha/Min/Elayne. They don't need to be part of that. Plus, that would leave Min out. It would just be fitting to have it come full circle with Moiraine and Nynaeve working together.

 

I also think she will be important in the big Meeting coming up. So those are the two things I can think of, and that leaves out whatever she got from the 2nd doorway. Since it's nothing physical it was probably knowledge. "Give me knowledge that will help Rand." ? I dunno.

 

 

My only problem with it being Luc is that Moiraine might have described him differently than "a man." Everyone who sees him says he looks a lot like Rand or a lot like Lan. Though I guess Perrin didn't think much of that back in TSR.

 

Morraine's purpose is to hand Rand the missing page from the Randland prophecies that she found in Vanden/adelas's place. The one torn from the original 300-1000 years ago that says the Dragon must bow to the crystal throne.

Err... what? I remember her visit to their house but I do not recall this.

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

We know the Finn hate anything connected to the shadow.... SO...

 

Why was a forsaken allowed to enter chasing after Lanfear AND how did that person manage to escape.

[Sharaman]

They react unpredictably to questions pertaining to the Shadow.

Anybody who reaches Hall of Bonds can carry through three bargains.

[dyoung]

@deadsy: Why do you say Moridin wouldn't have had any power there? By power I'm assuming use of the OP. Rand was channeling on his way out of their world and who knows where and when you can and cannot use the TP.

 

@UseR2006: The books never say the Finns hate the shadow, only that questions pertaining to the shadow are dangerous. As to how Moridin got out...I would say he Traveled out of there. There's nothing been said about their world that says the doorways or the tower are the only ways in and out. Their world is connected to TAR like every other, so it see it more than probable that he could Travel there from TAR if not directly from or to Randland.

[Deadsy]

@deadsy: Why do you say Moridin wouldn't have had any power there? By power I'm assuming use of the OP. Rand was channeling on his way out of their world and who knows where and when you can and cannot use the TP.

 

I was talking about Slayer, but I don't think either of them would have been able to kill Moiraine. I think the Finn could have taken Rand (or Moridin) if not for the bargain. It holds them. Their world has different rules. They didn't like the fire Rand made but they would have overcome it, I think. It would have been easy enough to hide from him 'til he fell asleep after he left the chamber. They were able to keep Moiraine unconscious whenever they wanted.

[Mystica]

Wow..... long post, sorry about that.

 

Your post was great, but then the crazies came back so I threw my hands in the air.

 

lol thanks :)

[Sharaman]

@deadsy: Why do you say Moridin wouldn't have had any power there? By power I'm assuming use of the OP. Rand was channeling on his way out of their world and who knows where and when you can and cannot use the TP.

 

@UseR2006: The books never say the Finns hate the shadow, only that questions pertaining to the shadow are dangerous. As to how Moridin got out...I would say he Traveled out of there. There's nothing been said about their world that says the doorways or the tower are the only ways in and out. Their world is connected to TAR like every other, so it see it more than probable that he could Travel there from TAR if not directly from or to Randland.

Finnland is not accessible from TAR.

[professorskar1]

I had a crazy theory once that Luc and Isam became Slayer via the Eelfin. Didn't have much to go on, but it was based on an interpretation of the Dark Prophecy from TGH. The relevant passage being:

 

"Luc came to the Mountains of Dhoom.

Isam waited in the high passes.

The hunt is now begun. The Shadow's hounds now course, and kill.

One did live, and one did die, but both are.

The Time of Change has come."

 

Now we know Luc went into the Blight. My theory was that the "high passes" are in fact the Niamh passes which lead into the Waste. Presumably Isam could have taken the Niamh passes into the Waste and made it to Rhuidean, and the Eelfinn doorway. One of his demands may have resulted in him getting Luc's soul getting shoved down his throat. Now, granted, I didn't even think this is likely when I posted it, but it's still a theory.

 

Part of me wants to say that I have it backwards...being that I have Luc being the one who died, and Isam being the one who lived. I say this because from what we've seen, Slayer seems to appear more often as Luc in the real world and Isam in T'A'R. But I also think that Jordan once said he can be either persona in either world.

 

Another thing I find interesting is that this passage references "the hunt" and the Shadow's hounds, and Slayer is linked to wolves.

[didymos]

[Morraine's purpose is to hand Rand the missing page from the Randland prophecies that she found in Vanden/adelas's place. The one torn from the original 300-1000 years ago that says the Dragon must bow to the crystal throne.

Err... what? I remember her visit to their house but I do not recall this.

 

That's because it's completely made-up.

[Jeangray]

I'll eat my tongue if Moiraine's importance has anything to do with how strong she is at channeling. That's never had anything to do with it. It was cool in EotW.

 

I beg to differ. Moiraine's channeling saved lots of people including Rand and Mat in TDR - TFoH. Among the Lightside characters, she was the one who used her channeling to the most effect after Rand himself, while she was around. It was always an integral part of who she was and what she has accomplished.

 

But it will have nothing to do with beating the Dark One. If it did, Rand would want the most powerful channelers, not two he trusts.

 

Yet he himself is an OP powerhouse and so is Nynaeve and Callandor is the most powerful existing sa'angreal. Readers admire them for MoAs that relied entirely on OP strength/inborn Talent. To say that strength in OP will have _nothing_ to do with it is massively overstating it. Unless Rand is completely wrong about what will be required for the Sealing, that is.

And the _only_ reason to include Moiraine in Callandor circle instead of Alivia, Avi or Cadsuane would be if she gained AoL channeling knowledge from the Finn and would be a better leader of the circle than Nynaeve. Otherwise she would be just a dead weight who'd weaken the circle as a whole.

So, yes, it could come to knowledge/skill rather than raw power, but still the channeling factor will be important.

 

And I'll say it again, she was just telling Thom she loved him that much. Even if she really would have given it up I'm sure she knew he wouldn't actually ask it of her.

 

That's how I rationalize it too. Still, I dislike that scene. Why should Moiraine be lessened / offer to be lesser for Thom to accept her?

 

I have to say that I generally don't like Moiraine's de-powering. On the one hand, yes, once it became clear that she knew that she might survive and be rescued, her initial sacrifice was diminished a bit. So, it was necessary to show that yes, it was as great as it seemed at first and RJ had to come with the way how she could be terribly tortured in non-disgusting and non-disfiguring ways.

OTOH, the only way to make Moiraine's return worthwhile is if she does some stupendious stuff. Which, given the importance accorded brute strength in OP in the series so far (a feature that I never liked), will be difficult to pull off.

Another problem I have is that if even taint madness can be Healed know, making Moiraine's affliction unhealable will seem awfully contrived.

[Deadsy]

I beg to differ. Moiraine's channeling saved lots of people including Rand and Mat in TDR - TFoH. Among the Lightside characters, she was the one who used her channeling to the most effect after Rand himself, while she was around. It was always an integral part of who she was and what she has accomplished.

Alright, she healed some people. But most of what she did with the Power had nothing to do with strength. She can still balefire people to death. She could have been a weakling in TDR and still balefired the darkhounds and Be'lal. There are thousands of channelers now fighting for the cause and several stronger than her. Her strength doesn't matter. And she does have the angreal, anyway. Moiraine's awesomeness has never been her One Power strength.

 

Yet he himself is an OP powerhouse and so is Nynaeve and Callandor is the most powerful existing sa'angreal. Readers admire them for MoAs that relied entirely on OP strength/inborn Talent. To say that strength in OP will have _nothing_ to do with it is massively overstating it. Unless Rand is completely wrong about what will be required for the Sealing, that is.

And the _only_ reason to include Moiraine in Callandor circle instead of Alivia, Avi or Cadsuane would be if she gained AoL channeling knowledge from the Finn and would be a better leader of the circle than Nynaeve. Otherwise she would be just a dead weight who'd weaken the circle as a whole.

So, yes, it could come to knowledge/skill rather than raw power, but still the channeling factor will be important.

This completely contradicts what Rand himself said. He wants two people he trusts. He doesn't care how strong they are. The point of callandor is obviously that it's saidar+saidin and some other property it has that we're unsure of. If it was strength that mattered he wouldn't have destroyed the CK. It will be Moiraine because he trusts her. It will be Moiraine even if she doesn't have knowledge from the Finn about it.

At the very least, I would like you by my side as I go to Shayol Ghul. I cannot defeat him with saidin alone, and if we are going to use Callandor, I will need two women I trust in the circle with me. I have not decided upon the other. Aviendha or Elayne, perhaps. But you for certain

 

 

given the importance accorded brute strength in OP in the series so far (a feature that I never liked), will be difficult to pull off.

This statement confuses me a lot. I don't dislike the feature because it doesn't exist to me. People rarely ever win OP battles because they're stronger. It's because they're smarter or luckier. The point has been made numerous times that being stronger just makes channelers overconfident.

[Bob T Dwarf]

This statement confuses me a lot. I don't dislike the feature because it doesn't exist to me. People rarely ever win OP battles because they're stronger. It's because they're smarter or luckier. The point has been made numerous times that being stronger just makes channelers overconfident.

 

I don't see Androl being able to singlehandedly break the back of the attack on Marador, so strength does count. But, I take your point about smarts and luck.

 

Moiraine would be a good candidate for Callandor, but I don't think it'll be used at the end. Maybe preliminary skirmishes, but not for the coup de grace. Just a hunch.

[Shard]

And if Moiraine knew that bargaining her way out wasn't an option, why ask to keep an angreal? Why not go for broke and ask for the strongest sa'angreal that the Finn had? Not to mention that the bracelet is kind of evilish in appearance.

It makes me wonder if it's just an angreal (or was it a sa'angreal? I can't remember). It seems like an odd request - "Please give me an item of Power that I already have access to in the real world" - I am willing to bet that Moiraine could locate an angreal or three if she needed them from the WT.

 

No, I think there's more to this bracelet than a simple enhancing of Power... otherwise it seems like a god-awful request.

 

Really? Because it seems to have saved her life in asking for it. I mean look at what happened to Lanfear.

[Bob T Dwarf]

And if Moiraine knew that bargaining her way out wasn't an option, why ask to keep an angreal? Why not go for broke and ask for the strongest sa'angreal that the Finn had? Not to mention that the bracelet is kind of evilish in appearance.

It makes me wonder if it's just an angreal (or was it a sa'angreal? I can't remember). It seems like an odd request - "Please give me an item of Power that I already have access to in the real world" - I am willing to bet that Moiraine could locate an angreal or three if she needed them from the WT.

 

No, I think there's more to this bracelet than a simple enhancing of Power... otherwise it seems like a god-awful request.

 

Really? Because it seems to have saved her life in asking for it. I mean look at what happened to Lanfear.

 

And something stronger wouldn't? As was said, if you're gonna ask for one, why not the strongest one they've got?

[Jeangray]

She can still balefire people to death. She could have been a weakling in TDR and still balefired the darkhounds and Be'lal.

 

Most weaves do have minimal strength requirement to work unless one has a special Talent. You don't know that Moiraine could still weave balefire unassisted and of course it is a weave that damages the Pattern and should only be used in uttermost emergency. And of course, a weak channeler gets exhausted very quickly too. So, yes, thousands of people including Rand and Mat would have been toast if Moiraine had been a weakling in the earlier books.

That is what makes it so jarring when she offers to throw away (not even give away) a strong angreal that could save so many lives.

 

This completely contradicts what Rand himself said. He wants two people he trusts.

 

Yet those he considers are also among the strongest channelers living, stronger than Moiraine was originally. And he really needs absolute trust only in the leader of the circle, as she would be the one doing stuff. Anyway, LTT also envisioned using the strongest female channelers for his Sealing. And of course, Rand used Nynaeve - the strongest female channeler whom he trusted, for Cleansing the taint.

 

If it was strength that mattered he wouldn't have destroyed the CK.

 

Rand thought that CK was too strong and could let one person destroy the world. LTT did as well. He still wanted the strongest women for his circle. Callandor is clearly much weaker and also there are a lot of prophecies that it will be instrumental, but it is still the most powerful sa'angreal in existence, so a certain amount of oomph will be needed.

 

People rarely ever win OP battles because they're stronger. It's because they're smarter or luckier. The point has been made numerous times that being stronger just makes channelers overconfident.

 

Huh? Rand and SGs have been successful until this book because of their strength and rare innate Talents. Even when Rand had very few and sporadic memories he could stand up to FS because of his strength (+ angreal for even more of it). Nyn was able to defeat Moghedien the first time because of her strength. Had she been a whisker weaker, she would have been toast. Ditto Asha'man. It has happened so many times. They learned so quickly, they invented things, they could split their flows manifold, they could overwhelm opposition by sheer brawn, etc. All because of their strengh/Talents fuelled by that strength. Skills or smarts rarely made a difference. Luck, yes. In fact, in OP fights Moiraine and Cynfear were the only ones so far who managed to handle a stronger opponent.

 

So, yes, Moiraine was one of the very few characters to efficiently use her powers and achieve more than expected with what she had, but she did have a decent baseline + angreal to work with. Weakened Moiraine would be pretty useless without her very strong angreal as far as hands-on things are concerned, as not only is she now far behind the herd in strength, but also in knowledge of weaves due to massive FS-pumping/invention spree in the year she had missed.

Yes, Moiraine still can advise, but don't people who support Rand's decision to break the Seals say that time for deliberations is over, that it is time to jump in and do stuff? So, what, did she return to spout some bit of obscure Finn knowledge and then become irrelevant? This would be hugely disappointing to me and an epic waste of all the build-up for her rescue.

[waffle]

Callandor will be used by Rand and the two most sought after characters in Randland. Demandred and Gaidal Cain. Cain has been reborn as a girl and Demandred had some surgery.

[AutomatedTeller]

My thought was that it was Slayer, too...

 

but wouldn't Slayer have tormented Moiraine? Luc's sister married Moiraine's brother, so there's some family bit there, and Slayer's never seemed like one to pass up some good torture if he could do it.

 

I think i agree that it was Moridin looking for Lanfear.

 

He wouldn't have had any power there. But people have theorized that he destroyed the Tear doorway so she couldn't be rescued.

 

 

Didn't write that clearly enough. I just meant that I would think he would taunted her in some way. Seems like it's in his character to not just say "huh - you aren't the one I want" and walk away.

[AutomatedTeller]

@deadsy: Why do you say Moridin wouldn't have had any power there? By power I'm assuming use of the OP. Rand was channeling on his way out of their world and who knows where and when you can and cannot use the TP.

 

@UseR2006: The books never say the Finns hate the shadow, only that questions pertaining to the shadow are dangerous. As to how Moridin got out...I would say he Traveled out of there. There's nothing been said about their world that says the doorways or the tower are the only ways in and out. Their world is connected to TAR like every other, so it see it more than probable that he could Travel there from TAR if not directly from or to Randland.

Finnland is not accessible from TAR.

 

Doesn't slayer enter the tower of Ghenjie from the Wolf Dream in TSR? I thought that's how Perrin learned about it, from Brigitte, after watching him go in. (I am aware that I can't spell ;)

[waffle]

@deadsy: Why do you say Moridin wouldn't have had any power there? By power I'm assuming use of the OP. Rand was channeling on his way out of their world and who knows where and when you can and cannot use the TP.

 

@UseR2006: The books never say the Finns hate the shadow, only that questions pertaining to the shadow are dangerous. As to how Moridin got out...I would say he Traveled out of there. There's nothing been said about their world that says the doorways or the tower are the only ways in and out. Their world is connected to TAR like every other, so it see it more than probable that he could Travel there from TAR if not directly from or to Randland.

Finnland is not accessible from TAR.

 

Doesn't slayer enter the tower of Ghenjie from the Wolf Dream in TSR? I thought that's how Perrin learned about it, from Brigitte, after watching him go in. (I am aware that I can't spell ;)

 

did Perrin actually see him go in?

[didymos]

@deadsy: Why do you say Moridin wouldn't have had any power there? By power I'm assuming use of the OP. Rand was channeling on his way out of their world and who knows where and when you can and cannot use the TP.

 

@UseR2006: The books never say the Finns hate the shadow, only that questions pertaining to the shadow are dangerous. As to how Moridin got out...I would say he Traveled out of there. There's nothing been said about their world that says the doorways or the tower are the only ways in and out. Their world is connected to TAR like every other, so it see it more than probable that he could Travel there from TAR if not directly from or to Randland.

Finnland is not accessible from TAR.

 

Doesn't slayer enter the tower of Ghenjie from the Wolf Dream in TSR? I thought that's how Perrin learned about it, from Brigitte, after watching him go in. (I am aware that I can't spell ;)

 

did Perrin actually see him go in?

 

No. He simply heads towards it like he's going to go in, and then vanishes. Perrin then assumes he must have gone inside. He was clearly just trying to throw Perrin off his scent, and likely hoped he'd decide to mess with the Tower. Why? Because it is possible to enter in the Tower in T'A'R. It's just a very, very bad idea, as Birgitte explained:

 

"Once entered, the Tower of Ghenjei is hard enough to leave in the world of men. Here it is all but impossible."

[gbuttsdc]

Lots to read so I may have missed this, but I have a thought on Moiraine including another theory mentioned somewhere else. I'm sure the "song" will come in to play in sealing the dark one. Moiraine being the third to use callandor doesn't make sense to me b/c any female channeler could do that and Min will be the one to figure out the missing piece of knowledge regarding it's use as it has been her task for some time. I think Moiraine used one of her final two requests to learn the song and she will lead it at SG to seal the DO while Rand and his two female companions hold him at bay using callandor to nullify the true power.