Moiraine

[aaron hranek]

She wouldn't contemplate chucking away the ang'real if she thought her own strength in the OP made a difference to the Light's prospects.

 

Maybe Moiraine was very sure that Thom, the man who came to rescue her from the Finn at a terrible peril to himself couldn't be enough of a jerk to make her throw away an angreal on the eve of the Last Battle (or ever)? Something that could be a matter of life and death not only to herself or Thom, but potentially hundreds/thousands of people? The fact remains, that she did spend one of her wishes on this angreal, so her still having access to a decent amount of OP will be significant somehow.

 

It's Moiraine's other qualities that make her important - she's like an adjunct to Min - another non-channeler whose inputs have been vital.

 

Why would an adjunct to Min be needed in such a case? Min could do it all by herself or with Cadsuane's help. Also most of Min's inputs had to do with being a seer and Rand's lover. Oh, I don't doubt that she will come up with something crucial re: prophecies and/or Sealing, but why bring Moiraine back just to assist her?

 

And BTW, this begs the question - were LTT and other AoLers just too chicken to barter with the Finn for knowledge about the Sealing?

She's AS - cannot break her word if, just if, he says "yes, throw it away".

Would a Royal Blue who's gone through so much, risk not being able to save the world for a whim?

I meant "adjunct to Min" in the sense that it's Moiraine's knowledge and the trust Rand has in her that's important, not her channeling ability (or lack of it).

We don't know where the ToG was and the Doors at Tear/ Rhuidean. Mat's implanted memories start long after the Breaking which suggests that Finnland wasn't easily accessible in AoL.

But we know that the doors are ter'angreal. And the making of those was lost from the time of the Breaking until like 6 months ago or so. It seems probable that the doors were constructed in the Age of Legends. I think their use was likely extremely limited at that time though. If those Aes Sedai understood what the Finn essentially feed off of, they (as much more powerful channelers) would likely have used extreme caution when going there, if they ever did at all. Though this is all pure speculation. As a counterpoint to my own argument, it's interesting that none of the Forsaken ever said anything about them or the doorways. We know that at least Lanfear and Asmodean spent a good deal of time around one of them.

 

I think the forsaken know alot about finnland, otherwise how would Ishy know how to go and get Lanfear out of there

[rand4747]

 

I actually think I was the one who brought that up in the first place. I know it's pretty much a moot point as the angreal was obviously a pre-arranged solution for the problem and I doubt the question will ever be addressed by the autor(s) much less in the books. I just thought it was interesting to discuss.

 

Before I go on my way, one last thing. To those who wonder why she asked for this angreal and not a stronger one, three possibilities spring to mind.

1: This is the strongest angreal that can be used by a single person?

2: The finns could only grant a gift that was already in their world, and this was the only, or the strongest one in their world.

3: This angreal is special. It has been described in detail. A man with his wrists bound to his ankles. (I don't have the books, but does this remind anyone of Rand in the box?) Perhaps it works together with, or against someone or something special? Perhaps it fixes the flaw in Callandor? We'll all have to read to find out.

 

Yolcu out!

 

It's mentioned several times that the bracelet is so powerful as to almost be sa'angreal so it's unlikely there are many (if any at all) more powerful than it. I remember in one of the books someone (Lanfear I think?) mentions that few people are powerful enough to use the access keys for the Choedan Kal. I suspect that there is a power threshold you have to meet or pass before you can use any given sa'angreal and Moiraine didn't want to risk receiving one she wouldn't be able to use (it would fit with the finns' behavior to grant her wish this way). If this is the case its a good thing she got the angreal since she ended up so weak after escaping.

 

She asked for an Angreal, and so thats what they gave her, she did not say sa'angreal, else they would have given her one of those.

[Lacanos]

She wouldn't contemplate chucking away the ang'real if she thought her own strength in the OP made a difference to the Light's prospects.

 

Maybe Moiraine was very sure that Thom, the man who came to rescue her from the Finn at a terrible peril to himself couldn't be enough of a jerk to make her throw away an angreal on the eve of the Last Battle (or ever)? Something that could be a matter of life and death not only to herself or Thom, but potentially hundreds/thousands of people? The fact remains, that she did spend one of her wishes on this angreal, so her still having access to a decent amount of OP will be significant somehow.

 

It's Moiraine's other qualities that make her important - she's like an adjunct to Min - another non-channeler whose inputs have been vital.

 

Why would an adjunct to Min be needed in such a case? Min could do it all by herself or with Cadsuane's help. Also most of Min's inputs had to do with being a seer and Rand's lover. Oh, I don't doubt that she will come up with something crucial re: prophecies and/or Sealing, but why bring Moiraine back just to assist her?

 

And BTW, this begs the question - were LTT and other AoLers just too chicken to barter with the Finn for knowledge about the Sealing?

She's AS - cannot break her word if, just if, he says "yes, throw it away".

Would a Royal Blue who's gone through so much, risk not being able to save the world for a whim?

I meant "adjunct to Min" in the sense that it's Moiraine's knowledge and the trust Rand has in her that's important, not her channeling ability (or lack of it).

We don't know where the ToG was and the Doors at Tear/ Rhuidean. Mat's implanted memories start long after the Breaking which suggests that Finnland wasn't easily accessible in AoL.

But we know that the doors are ter'angreal. And the making of those was lost from the time of the Breaking until like 6 months ago or so. It seems probable that the doors were constructed in the Age of Legends. I think their use was likely extremely limited at that time though. If those Aes Sedai understood what the Finn essentially feed off of, they (as much more powerful channelers) would likely have used extreme caution when going there, if they ever did at all. Though this is all pure speculation. As a counterpoint to my own argument, it's interesting that none of the Forsaken ever said anything about them or the doorways. We know that at least Lanfear and Asmodean spent a good deal of time around one of them.

 

I think the forsaken know alot about finnland, otherwise how would Ishy know how to go and get Lanfear out of there

 

I love how wonderfully circular your argument is:

Ishamael knows how to go get lanfear out, therefore the forsaken know a lot about finnland, therefore ishy knows how to get lanfear out.

 

The reason I don't believe that it was Ishy is simply because I think he's too valuable a pawn to risk, even to recover Lanfear. Furthermore, if they're capable of defeating the OP without any effort (which we know they are), it seems equally plausible they can defeat the TP.

[johthohar]

 

I actually think I was the one who brought that up in the first place. I know it's pretty much a moot point as the angreal was obviously a pre-arranged solution for the problem and I doubt the question will ever be addressed by the autor(s) much less in the books. I just thought it was interesting to discuss.

 

Before I go on my way, one last thing. To those who wonder why she asked for this angreal and not a stronger one, three possibilities spring to mind.

1: This is the strongest angreal that can be used by a single person?

2: The finns could only grant a gift that was already in their world, and this was the only, or the strongest one in their world.

3: This angreal is special. It has been described in detail. A man with his wrists bound to his ankles. (I don't have the books, but does this remind anyone of Rand in the box?) Perhaps it works together with, or against someone or something special? Perhaps it fixes the flaw in Callandor? We'll all have to read to find out.

 

Yolcu out!

 

It's mentioned several times that the bracelet is so powerful as to almost be sa'angreal so it's unlikely there are many (if any at all) more powerful than it. I remember in one of the books someone (Lanfear I think?) mentions that few people are powerful enough to use the access keys for the Choedan Kal. I suspect that there is a power threshold you have to meet or pass before you can use any given sa'angreal and Moiraine didn't want to risk receiving one she wouldn't be able to use (it would fit with the finns' behavior to grant her wish this way). If this is the case its a good thing she got the angreal since she ended up so weak after escaping.

 

She asked for an Angreal, and so thats what they gave her, she did not say sa'angreal, else they would have given her one of those.

 

I think you're missing the point of my post. Read more closely. I didn't say she should have or wanted a sa'angreal. I was explaining why I think she asked for that specific angreal instead of one more powerful or a sa'angreal.

[Zentari]

The reason I don't believe that it was Ishy is simply because I think he's too valuable a pawn to risk, even to recover Lanfear. Furthermore, if they're capable of defeating the OP without any effort (which we know they are), it seems equally plausible they can defeat the TP.

Your argument about Ishy being too valuable is good.The other is bogus.Given the differences between OP and TP, you are making a BIG assumption here based on the fact that they are both powers.Also , while they feed on OP, they were pretty damn scared of Rand's firesword.If they were immune to the effects of OP they would not have reacted that way (or perhaps it's just the fire weaves).So the statement that they can defeat the OP without any effort is also dubious.

[Lacanos]

The reason I don't believe that it was Ishy is simply because I think he's too valuable a pawn to risk, even to recover Lanfear. Furthermore, if they're capable of defeating the OP without any effort (which we know they are), it seems equally plausible they can defeat the TP.

Your argument about Ishy being too valuable is good.The other is bogus.Given the differences between OP and TP, you are making a BIG assumption here based on the fact that they are both powers.Also , while they feed on OP, they were pretty damn scared of Rand's firesword.If they were immune to the effects of OP they would not have reacted that way (or perhaps it's just the fire weaves).So the statement that they can defeat the OP without any effort is also dubious.

I'll concede the term "without effort" was a mistake. However, I am curious as to how they could hold Lanfear/Moiraine if incapable of doing something about the OP; I think we can agree they must have the ability to shield them or something. While there are marked differences between the OP and TP, if the Ael/Eel are as powerful/knowledgeable as they are displayed, I imagine they would have some idea of how to combat it?

[Zentari]

The reason I don't believe that it was Ishy is simply because I think he's too valuable a pawn to risk, even to recover Lanfear. Furthermore, if they're capable of defeating the OP without any effort (which we know they are), it seems equally plausible they can defeat the TP.

Your argument about Ishy being too valuable is good.The other is bogus.Given the differences between OP and TP, you are making a BIG assumption here based on the fact that they are both powers.Also , while they feed on OP, they were pretty damn scared of Rand's firesword.If they were immune to the effects of OP they would not have reacted that way (or perhaps it's just the fire weaves).So the statement that they can defeat the OP without any effort is also dubious.

I'll concede the term "without effort" was a mistake. However, I am curious as to how they could hold Lanfear/Moiraine if incapable of doing something about the OP; I think we can agree they must have the ability to shield them or something. While there are marked differences between the OP and TP, if the Ael/Eel are as powerful/knowledgeable as they are displayed, I imagine they would have some idea of how to combat it?

They gave away a ter'angreal that makes the wearer immune to the one power so they have plenty of tools at their disposal.We have not seen however what effects does the OP have when used on them.Perhaps they are immune or otherwise resistant.Then again maybe it affects them normally.

They must have some kind of control of channelers though, or else every man/woman who could channel could walk in and out without being stopped , ter'angreal or not.

 

As for the TP being the same, I don't think so.You can do stuff with TP that the OP is fundamentally incapable of.Let's not forget, while the Forsaken are usually granted a small amount, when Rand held it he remarked how he could break the world.

[cleantoe]

 

I actually think I was the one who brought that up in the first place. I know it's pretty much a moot point as the angreal was obviously a pre-arranged solution for the problem and I doubt the question will ever be addressed by the autor(s) much less in the books. I just thought it was interesting to discuss.

 

Before I go on my way, one last thing. To those who wonder why she asked for this angreal and not a stronger one, three possibilities spring to mind.

1: This is the strongest angreal that can be used by a single person?

2: The finns could only grant a gift that was already in their world, and this was the only, or the strongest one in their world.

3: This angreal is special. It has been described in detail. A man with his wrists bound to his ankles. (I don't have the books, but does this remind anyone of Rand in the box?) Perhaps it works together with, or against someone or something special? Perhaps it fixes the flaw in Callandor? We'll all have to read to find out.

 

Yolcu out!

 

It's mentioned several times that the bracelet is so powerful as to almost be sa'angreal so it's unlikely there are many (if any at all) more powerful than it. I remember in one of the books someone (Lanfear I think?) mentions that few people are powerful enough to use the access keys for the Choedan Kal. I suspect that there is a power threshold you have to meet or pass before you can use any given sa'angreal and Moiraine didn't want to risk receiving one she wouldn't be able to use (it would fit with the finns' behavior to grant her wish this way). If this is the case its a good thing she got the angreal since she ended up so weak after escaping.

 

She asked for an Angreal, and so thats what they gave her, she did not say sa'angreal, else they would have given her one of those.

 

I think you're missing the point of my post. Read more closely. I didn't say she should have or wanted a sa'angreal. I was explaining why I think she asked for that specific angreal instead of one more powerful or a sa'angreal.

 

You make a good point about having to be powerful enough to use some sa'angreal, but I think you made a mistake. By that logic, you should also need to be powerful enough to use powerful but normal angreal.

 

After getting drained, Moiraine could barely even light a fire with the amount of One Power she could channel. The angreal she had was almost powerful enough to be sa'angreal. I don't think she would be able to use that angreal if it's based on the amount of raw power you can channel -- she'd be far too weak to use even that angreal.

 

I think the point of the Choeden Kal is that they are so massively powerful it takes someone really strong to be able to use them -- but since all the other sa'angreal don't even come close to it, it's hard to judge how powerful one would need to be to use a lesser sa'angreal.

 

I think Moiraine just bargained for a powerful angreal because the "price" of the bargain would be too great if she asked for a sa'angreal. That makes more sense to me.

[rand4747]

 

I actually think I was the one who brought that up in the first place. I know it's pretty much a moot point as the angreal was obviously a pre-arranged solution for the problem and I doubt the question will ever be addressed by the autor(s) much less in the books. I just thought it was interesting to discuss.

 

Before I go on my way, one last thing. To those who wonder why she asked for this angreal and not a stronger one, three possibilities spring to mind.

1: This is the strongest angreal that can be used by a single person?

2: The finns could only grant a gift that was already in their world, and this was the only, or the strongest one in their world.

3: This angreal is special. It has been described in detail. A man with his wrists bound to his ankles. (I don't have the books, but does this remind anyone of Rand in the box?) Perhaps it works together with, or against someone or something special? Perhaps it fixes the flaw in Callandor? We'll all have to read to find out.

 

Yolcu out!

 

It's mentioned several times that the bracelet is so powerful as to almost be sa'angreal so it's unlikely there are many (if any at all) more powerful than it. I remember in one of the books someone (Lanfear I think?) mentions that few people are powerful enough to use the access keys for the Choedan Kal. I suspect that there is a power threshold you have to meet or pass before you can use any given sa'angreal and Moiraine didn't want to risk receiving one she wouldn't be able to use (it would fit with the finns' behavior to grant her wish this way). If this is the case its a good thing she got the angreal since she ended up so weak after escaping.

 

She asked for an Angreal, and so thats what they gave her, she did not say sa'angreal, else they would have given her one of those.

 

I think you're missing the point of my post. Read more closely. I didn't say she should have or wanted a sa'angreal. I was explaining why I think she asked for that specific angreal instead of one more powerful or a sa'angreal.

 

 

I don't recall where i read it but i remember it been said that moiraine was one of the few aes sedai capable of using the choedan kal the most powerfull sa angreal, the others being elaida siuan sanche and cadsuane, There was also more but not many. (exclude the wonder girls here). I doubt she could use a sa angreal now though. Possibly though the difference between an angreal and a sa angreal is the angreal is weak enough to be used by all channelers. In which case did she know that she would be drained by the finns and chose what is the strongest she will be able to channel afterwards.

[johthohar]

You make a good point about having to be powerful enough to use some sa'angreal, but I think you made a mistake. By that logic, you should also need to be powerful enough to use powerful but normal angreal.

 

After getting drained, Moiraine could barely even light a fire with the amount of One Power she could channel. The angreal she had was almost powerful enough to be sa'angreal. I don't think she would be able to use that angreal if it's based on the amount of raw power you can channel -- she'd be far too weak to use even that angreal.

 

I think the point of the Choeden Kal is that they are so massively powerful it takes someone really strong to be able to use them -- but since all the other sa'angreal don't even come close to it, it's hard to judge how powerful one would need to be to use a lesser sa'angreal.

 

I think Moiraine just bargained for a powerful angreal because the "price" of the bargain would be too great if she asked for a sa'angreal. That makes more sense to me.

 

You aren't hearing me. I'm saying that the defining difference between angreal and sa'angreal is that the sa'angreal have a minimum power requirement while the less powerful angreal can be used by any channeler.

 

I don't recall where i read it but i remember it been said that moiraine was one of the few aes sedai capable of using the choedan kal the most powerfull sa angreal, the others being elaida siuan sanche and cadsuane, There was also more but not many. (exclude the wonder girls here). I doubt she could use a sa angreal now though. Possibly though the difference between an angreal and a sa angreal is the angreal is weak enough to be used by all channelers. In which case did she know that she would be drained by the finns and chose what is the strongest she will be able to channel afterwards.

 

That's right! I'd forgotten that she would have know from her trip through the ring ter'angreal that the finns would drain her! So it makes perfect sense that she wouldn't choose a sa'angreal even though she had been powerful enough to use most if not all of them before.

[Declan]

Just to help out johthohar:

 

Along with what he has already said about angreal and sa'angreal, maybe you can look at the power requirement in a sa'angreal as an inherit flaw that must be accepted in the making of the object in order for it to be able to have that much of the OP flow through it. This line of thinking is based possibly off that their is a "ceiling" to how much an angreal can flow through it and if you want to pass that ceiling you must accept an object that cannot be used by everyone.

[Steph]

Wow, just finished ToM last night... So many good theories here, I just have two questions:

1) Why did Thom remove the bracelet from Moiraine when he took her down? Why not leave it on her arm only to give it back later? (well, that's really a 2 part question.)

2) Did Moiraine need to take the bracelet when she fell through the arch in order to prevent it being in randland while she was being held? When she first saw it she hated it, maybe she had seen a possible scenario where it could be used against Rand??

[moratcorlm]

1) Why did Thom remove the bracelet from Moiraine when he took her down?

He initially thought it was a ter'angreal, and I think he may have been under the impression that it was incapacitating her.

2) Did Moiraine need to take the bracelet when she fell through the arch in order to prevent it being in randland while she was being held? When she first saw it she hated it, maybe she had seen a possible scenario where it could be used against Rand??

She didn't like it because a) it was shaped like someone being tortured and b) it represented the fulfillment of her visions in Rhuidean. She set it on the wagon so that Lanfear would be tempted to climb up to retrieve it and put herself in front of the doorway.

[Val Mickey]

She set it on the wagon so that Lanfear would be tempted to climb up to retrieve it and put herself in front of the doorway.

 

Cool. I never saw it that way. From what I remember, Kadere's wagon explodes and within heartbeats, Rand battles Lanfear.

[Ananta]

About this Cyndane/Lanfear thing.

 

Here's what I think:

 

Lanfear got drained A LITTLE. She died because they pushed too fast, too hard. Compare this to knife wound - You can survive hundreds of slight cuts, a little at time, but you will die when someone stabs you to heart once.

 

Lanfear got revived as Cyndane, and that what she lost to Eelfinns is now gone for good. No way to get it back. Stilling her and having male channeler heal her would bring her back to Cyndane level, not Lanfear level.

 

Because here's the difference between draining and stilling: Stilling you can still "see" the source, but you can't embrace it. As if you're shielded permanently. Draining, you lose the ability for good. Your potential is being drained away. The "hole" from which you channel is made smaller. If draining was same as stilling, Cyndane would be as strong as she was as Lanfear; if healed by Aes Sedai she'd be way weaker, if healed by Asha'man she'd be as strong as before. So only reason for her strenght to be weaker than before is the draining being permanent.

 

I also think that burning out is permanent and unhealable. Stilling is healable because it's caused by other people using weaves on you. While burning out just burns you out O.o Unless we learn that burn out is actually caused by some inner mechanism that shields you from source to prevent your body from destroying itself.

[Ananta]

There's also the part in the book (chapter 57) where Mat and Moiraine are talking and it goes like:

 

Moiraine: "Elayne is Queen, then?"

Mat: "Sure is. Her mother was killed by Rahvin."

Moiraine: "So you told me."

Mat: "I did? When?"

Moiraine: "A lifetime ago, Matrim."

 

That seems somehow important...

 

 

Then there's also a part in chapter 55, where Moiraine whispers "Thom, I thought I heard your voice." and then Mat's reaction to that is "Light, but her voice took Mat back. To other times. Ages ago."

 

But this could just be a reference to how long a journey they had together, and how much everything has changed since he last saw Moiraine...

[moratcorlm]

That was most peculiar. Mat should know that Morgase was alive at that point.

[David Selig]

Yeah, this must be a mistake. Perrin surely mentioned Morgase when he was telling the story of his adventures to Mat. Even if Perrin kept quiet on that for some reason, the return of Morgase was announced publicly in Caemlyn at least several days before Mat left for the Tower of Ghenjei.

[Aquarius]

That was most peculiar. Mat should know that Morgase was alive at that point.

Not so sure about that. Perrin is rather uncommunicative, even for a WOT character.

[hfel]

I haven't read this whole thread yet and wanted to postulate on this matter before I do read it all.

 

At first I was genuinely perturbed by her demeanor during and after the Tower of Ghenjei; this is neither the Moiraine I know nor the Moiraine I would expect. The emotional 'outburst' or, rather, unhindered emotion was completely out of character in my mind. I respect that she very well could have spent years or decades suffering in the realm of the Finns (as per Birgette's description of time in that place).

 

Then, also, there was her complete nonchalance with regard to relinquishing her angreal which is the only thing keeping her from "barely at the level of being raised to an Accepted".

 

Then it hit me.

 

She submits to her emotions and wants nothing more than to be with Thom after she talks to Rand.

 

One of her questions. She has the key to defeating the DO and must impart that to Rand. After that she can live in peace with Thom knowing her role has been fulfilled. She asked about the DO and paid dearly for it not even knowing if that knowledge would make it back to RandLand for certain.

 

Probably way off base but I wanted to spit that out there before wading through this huge thread!

 

 

Perhaps she not only wants to be with Thom but, from Rhuidean or the snakes, knows that she MUST be with Thom, that it is more important than strength in the power, that it is worth giving up the angreal to assure that she is.

[aynatal2000]

The Finn didn't GIVE it to her, they let her KEEP it. HUGE difference. It came through the doorway with her and Lanfear. Try again.

 

You try again: she specifically said that it was one of the three things she asked of them. Where it came from is irrelevant, and besides, she didn't have it to keep. Lanfear was the one wearing it when they went through the door.

She asked for it to keep it out of the hands of the Dark One.That Angreal can amplify power... and I think force a man who can channel to be manipulated in a circle; controlled if you will if you have a real nasty handling it.I think it is to be used in a circle with Callandor - I think Rand cannot use Callandor in a circle without a buffer and it will be one of them.