Moiraine

[nwash_10]

Maybe the bond only works in there own dimension, so if the snakes&foxes are in a parrelel reality, maybe it won't cross that. Or maybe there in the same reality and just very, very distant, an the bond has a distance limit.

 

If this was the case then when she went through the doorway in Tear her bond with Lan would have been broken.

[Harry998]

I found it quite intriguing that the Finns had the ability to actually drain her strength in the One Power. How in the Light would that be possible?

 

Also, I wonder if she was kept the whole time where they found her, Snow-White style. She was in some sort of induced sleep, it looked like -- still makes me wonder whether they fed her.

 

I also wonder if one of her requests was for her bond with Lan to be severed -- if they were capable of doing so. That way everyone would think she was dead and Lan would go follow his own path.

 

I agree with this. I think it had to be one of her requests. Otherwise, Lan(and probably others) would have tried to save her and they all would have died.

I think the destruction of the doorway severe the bound

Remember that Lan could feel his bond change to a new sister as soon as Moarein went trough that portal. I don't think there could be enough time for her to make wishes for severing the bond.

This leaves us with:

1.she intentionaly switched the bond the way Nyn got it later on, or

2.the destruction of the portal did the job. though she's been to the snake/foxes world once before(in tear) and she didn't loose the bond

Either way, I don't think any of her wishes had anything to do with Lan's bond.

[Byzantine279]

I wonder if it is possible to heal the damage that the Finn's caused to her, if it is an asha'man should be able to give her "Epic power up #27636".

[kes]

Long time lurker.... ToM made me finally register.

 

 

Anyway, I am a bit sad that Moiriaine came back so late. Think about how much had happened since then, she is completely out of date and if she is just going to be the other body that wields Callandor, then that seems like a waste of a strong character.

[Kidicaris]

I've been waiting for her return since 1993, and it was her heroic death that MAY have >.> <.< brought a tear to my eyes.

 

But I was surprised by my reaction to the scene that happened after they escaped the tower. I found it surprisingly sentimental. I mean, for a public display. Moiraine practically simpered in Thom's arms. This is completely anathema to the Moiraine I knew and loved--well, learned to love (it sure made it easier to love her after her death--which forced me to reassess her motives, character and AWEsomeness).

 

I have said it in another post, but I THINK the scene would have landed better for me, if Matt had not witnessed it. WoT is a world with strict codes of conduct where the public is very clearly separated from the private. This cultural and social custom seems to pervade the series regardless of social standing or differing culture. Maybe RJ was strictly not a PDA kind of guy, because WoT is a world filled with chaste and private people. Moiraine who was the epitome of cool blue acting so open and sentimental shocked me.

 

Again, if this scene had occurred in private I might not have had such a strange reaction to one of my most anticipated WoT moments in the series.

Also, I am choosing to tell myself that a lot of stuff happened between those two off screen in previous books.

 

I concede that her long torturous imprisonment could have easily changed her in many intrinsic ways, after which she might have decided to throw her Cairhienen noble/ Aes Sedai decorum to the winds.

Bucket list:

1) Tell Thom "I LOVE YOU"

1.a) smile more.

2) Wiki WoT, what the HELL has been going on since I was gone?

3) Find Rand, save world.

[Paradox]

Well so my (and probably others) theory about Moiraine releasing Lan from his bound, evidenced by "she forced him out of her mind" at the end of choices in FoH, are looking more plausible after ToM :)

 

Ooh and Lan sulking the last couple of books is just him being himself and/or loyal.

 

That said there are a lot of strange things regarding her time with the Finns. How did they hold her, Rand used the OP effectively against them. Why wish for Lanfear's angreal. The Finns reducing her ability, does that mean that they can increase it as well (Lanfear being to perfect).

 

Got an broken hand so that's it for now, Rand is bloody lucky that he doesn't need to work with computers.

[capuga]

Well so my (and probably others) theory about Moiraine releasing Lan from his bound, evidenced by "she forced him out of her mind" at the end of choices in FoH, are looking more plausible after ToM :)

 

Ooh and Lan sulking the last couple of books is just him being himself/loyal.

 

That said their is a lot of strange things regarding her time with the Finns. How did they hold her, Rand used the OP effectively against them. Why wish for Lanefear angreal. The Finns reducing her ability, does that mean that they can increase it as well (Lanefear being to perfect).

 

Got an broken hand so that's it for now, Rand is bloody lucky that he doesn't need to work with computers.

 

If Moiraine just released Lan from his bond than he wouldn't have felt the suicide urges. We have seen a discussion in the books about Aes Sedai who are about to die releasing the bond to spare their warders. And if the bond was merely transfered from Moiraine to Myrelle than Lan would have had the same negative impulses when Myrelle transfered it to Nynaeve, which we can see from his POV is not the case. The only conclusion is that something snapped the bond between Moiraine and Lan. Whether that was the doorway melting, the Finns, or something else I'm not sure.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I've been waiting for her return since 1993, and it was her heroic death that MAY have >.> <.< brought a tear to my eyes.

 

But I was surprised by my reaction to the scene that happened after they escaped the tower. I found it surprisingly sentimental. I mean, for a public display. Moiraine practically simpered in Thom's arms. This is completely anathema to the Moiraine I knew and loved--well, learned to love (it sure made it easier to love her after her death--which forced me to reassess her motives, character and AWEsomeness).

 

I have said it in another post, but I THINK the scene would have landed better for me, if Matt had not witnessed it. ...

 

I took it as an indication that what happened to her has shown Moiraine how tenuous life is, even for an Aes Sedai. She has a choice, she can say what needs saying now, in front of Mat or anybody else, or she can die with it unsaid.

 

99.9% of social custom is based on the faulty premise that there is always more time, that you can "wait for a better time."

 

Bzzzt. WRONG! Thanks for playing and see the DO on your way out for your lovely parting gifts. It's now or never.

[Paradox]

If Moiraine just released Lan from his bond than he wouldn't have felt the suicide urges. We have seen a discussion in the books about Aes Sedai who are about to die releasing the bond to spare their warders. And if the bond was merely transfered from Moiraine to Myrelle than Lan would have had the same negative impulses when Myrelle transfered it to Nynaeve, which we can see from his POV is not the case. The only conclusion is that something snapped the bond between Moiraine and Lan. Whether that was the doorway melting, the Finns, or something else I'm not sure.

 

To me all we see is Lan acting like his companion for the last 20 years just died. He kind of went back to the way he was pre Moiraine post killing his friend, all I have to die alone fighting the blight.

[randsc]

The only thing that irritated me about Moraine's storyline was the fact that she doesn't share with Mat and Thom the answers she got from the Finns. This withholding information for no good reason crap has got to stop. I realize that for the sake of the narrative, the author couldn't have her share at the end of this book. Better to save it for next time. But she best share relevent information right quick in the next book.

 

Moraine: "I have returned, with the secret of defeating the Dark One and saving the World! I won'r share this tidbit with you, the guy who rescued me from a horrible fate at the cost of his own eye, because I am Aes Sedai, and we are incapable of passing up any opportunity to remain "mysterious", no matter what the consequences!"

 

....trips on rock, falls, breaks neck, dies...

[AutomatedTeller]

I think Moiraine had a life-changing experience (quite literally!), in some ways like Rand. I think she has more wisdom now.

 

I think the world is changing for the Aes Sedai.

 

They no longer have a monopoly on the One Power.

Very soon, they will no longer have the implied moral authority of being the last bulwark against the Dark One, cause he's going to be locked away.

Technology is catching up to them - canons are a huge leveler.

 

The White Tower is going to have to change and be more human, I think. They won't be to make nations shake, not when those nations can whip up 100 cannons and bring down the walls of Tar Valon...

[darko]

This is completely anathema to the Moiraine I knew and loved

 

True enough. But she was "humbled, cast down. That made her seem stronger to him for some reason".

 

I actually laughed when she told Mat "But take care. The most displeasing of events in our lives are sometimes for our good". Same old Moiraine!

[nwash_10]

I found it quite intriguing that the Finns had the ability to actually drain her strength in the One Power. How in the Light would that be possible?

 

Also, I wonder if she was kept the whole time where they found her, Snow-White style. She was in some sort of induced sleep, it looked like -- still makes me wonder whether they fed her.

 

I also wonder if one of her requests was for her bond with Lan to be severed -- if they were capable of doing so. That way everyone would think she was dead and Lan would go follow his own path.

 

I agree with this. I think it had to be one of her requests. Otherwise, Lan(and probably others) would have tried to save her and they all would have died.

I think the destruction of the doorway severe the bound

Remember that Lan could feel his bond change to a new sister as soon as Moarein went trough that portal. I don't think there could be enough time for her to make wishes for severing the bond.

This leaves us with:

1.she intentionaly switched the bond the way Nyn got it later on, or

2.the destruction of the portal did the job. though she's been to the snake/foxes world once before(in tear) and she didn't loose the bond

Either way, I don't think any of her wishes had anything to do with Lan's bond.

 

However, we KNOW that time runs differently in the land of the Eelfinn/Aelfinn. RJ stated this on more then one occasion. Remember when Mat and Rand were in Rhuidean? They thought they were only there for a short amount of time when in all actuality it was like 7 days or something ridiculous like that. It's extremely possible with the difference of how time works in the land of the Aelfinn/Eelfinn that Mo could have made a bargain with the Eelfinn that included her bond with Lan to be severed.

[Jhirrad]

And if Moiraine knew that bargaining her way out wasn't an option, why ask to keep an angreal? Why not go for broke and ask for the strongest sa'angreal that the Finn had? Not to mention that the bracelet is kind of evilish in appearance.

It makes me wonder if it's just an angreal (or was it a sa'angreal? I can't remember). It seems like an odd request - "Please give me an item of Power that I already have access to in the real world" - I am willing to bet that Moiraine could locate an angreal or three if she needed them from the WT.

 

No, I think there's more to this bracelet than a simple enhancing of Power... otherwise it seems like a god-awful request.

 

Are people's memories REALLY this poor? Seriously??? The angreal in question, which Moraine is now using, is one which she took from Rhuidean. She laid it out on the wagon the night before she went through the gateway at the docks of Cairhein, and it was being used by Lanfear at the time, which is the reason she was able to so easily handle Rand during that fight (along with his unwillingness to actually kill a woman).

[Jhirrad]

Maybe the bond only works in there own dimension, so if the snakes&foxes are in a parrelel reality, maybe it won't cross that. Or maybe there in the same reality and just very, very distant, an the bond has a distance limit.

 

The problem with this is that we know she already went to see them once, while in the Stone of Tear, to get questions answered, and that didn't sever the bond. Perhaps there was something with the nature of being trapped in that dimension and not bound by the treaties, but because she went through the doorway, she should have in fact been protected to a degree by the treaties of old. It's definitely an intriguing question though. The other thing too - the bond wasn't removed as such. It was simply transferred, as though she had died. So there has to be something where she actually died. Maybe she was dead for a short time, but then brought back to life.

[capuga]

If Moiraine just released Lan from his bond than he wouldn't have felt the suicide urges. We have seen a discussion in the books about Aes Sedai who are about to die releasing the bond to spare their warders. And if the bond was merely transfered from Moiraine to Myrelle than Lan would have had the same negative impulses when Myrelle transfered it to Nynaeve, which we can see from his POV is not the case. The only conclusion is that something snapped the bond between Moiraine and Lan. Whether that was the doorway melting, the Finns, or something else I'm not sure.

 

To me all we see is Lan acting like his companion for the last 20 years just died. He kind of went back to the way he was pre Moiraine post killing his friend, all I have to die alone fighting the blight.

 

Well we do see that Myrelle behaves the same with him as other warders she has saved after their Aes Sedai die, i.e. sleeping with him and making exercise a lot. There is also a lot of talk about his eyes being cold as death.

[Demon_AS]

And if Moiraine knew that bargaining her way out wasn't an option, why ask to keep an angreal? Why not go for broke and ask for the strongest sa'angreal that the Finn had? Not to mention that the bracelet is kind of evilish in appearance.

It makes me wonder if it's just an angreal (or was it a sa'angreal? I can't remember). It seems like an odd request - "Please give me an item of Power that I already have access to in the real world" - I am willing to bet that Moiraine could locate an angreal or three if she needed them from the WT.

 

No, I think there's more to this bracelet than a simple enhancing of Power... otherwise it seems like a god-awful request.

 

Are people's memories REALLY this poor? Seriously??? The angreal in question, which Moraine is now using, is one which she took from Rhuidean. She laid it out on the wagon the night before she went through the gateway at the docks of Cairhein, and it was being used by Lanfear at the time, which is the reason she was able to so easily handle Rand during that fight (along with his unwillingness to actually kill a woman).

I'm pretty certain Moiraine actually stated that she got it was a result of one of her requests.

 

I recommend you examine your OWN memory and re-read the relevant chapters.

[Demon_AS]

And if Moiraine knew that bargaining her way out wasn't an option, why ask to keep an angreal? Why not go for broke and ask for the strongest sa'angreal that the Finn had? Not to mention that the bracelet is kind of evilish in appearance.

It makes me wonder if it's just an angreal (or was it a sa'angreal? I can't remember). It seems like an odd request - "Please give me an item of Power that I already have access to in the real world" - I am willing to bet that Moiraine could locate an angreal or three if she needed them from the WT.

 

No, I think there's more to this bracelet than a simple enhancing of Power... otherwise it seems like a god-awful request.

 

 

It's an angreal that is almost powerful enough to be a sa'angreal. according to that one Finn.

As to the rest, no idea. It could have other properties, but have we ever seen a single channeling item that has more than one use? The only things I can think of are Nyneave's and Cadsuane's paralis-nets and they aren't single items. The only things we actually know about it is that it isn't pretty (it's a man bent back with his hands and feet tied together in a circle right?) It's very strong, Lanfear used it, and Moraine bargained to keep it with her. Doesn't really tell us much.

Lanfear used it? I could've sworn that the Finn gave it to her as part of a request... *shrugs* oh well.

[f3llyn]

And if Moiraine knew that bargaining her way out wasn't an option, why ask to keep an angreal? Why not go for broke and ask for the strongest sa'angreal that the Finn had? Not to mention that the bracelet is kind of evilish in appearance.

It makes me wonder if it's just an angreal (or was it a sa'angreal? I can't remember). It seems like an odd request - "Please give me an item of Power that I already have access to in the real world" - I am willing to bet that Moiraine could locate an angreal or three if she needed them from the WT.

 

No, I think there's more to this bracelet than a simple enhancing of Power... otherwise it seems like a god-awful request.

 

Are people's memories REALLY this poor? Seriously??? The angreal in question, which Moraine is now using, is one which she took from Rhuidean. She laid it out on the wagon the night before she went through the gateway at the docks of Cairhein, and it was being used by Lanfear at the time, which is the reason she was able to so easily handle Rand during that fight (along with his unwillingness to actually kill a woman).

I'm pretty certain Moiraine actually stated that she got it was a result of one of her requests.

 

I recommend you examine your OWN memory and re-read the relevant chapters.

No, it is the one that Lanfear was using at the end of FoH to hurt Rand/Aviendha/Egwene. Moiraine was able to keep it as one of her requests. It's described in that chapter as well as a man bent backwards with his arms and legs tied together. And we know that no two angreals are similar (until the dream ones that Elayne makes that is). Moiraine even says that she hated it, which makes it even more curious as to why she would ask to keep it.

 

About that bond with Lan, I don't see why a death needs to be involved. For all intents and purposes, Moirane died to Lan as soon as she went through the door way and his bond was transferred. He would just assume like everyone else that she died. He just says something along the lines of "she's dead, I can feel the new one now, I must go". The shock of seeing her fall through the door and it going up in flames and having his bond transferred to another was enough for him to just assume she died. Also I think it would be a bit lame for her to have to waste one of her requests on something like that.

[noonan]

The Finn feeding off Moraine's OP is interesting also seems to explain why Cyndane is so much weaker in the power than when she was Lanfear.

[bronnt]

Am I the only one that agrees with Mat, wondering exactly what the Thom/Moiraine relationship was based on? In its own way, it's even more baseless than the beginning of the Perrin/Faile relationship-they've probably spent less time together than any other couple in WoT to date, and they've decided to get married. They also aren't hormone-driven teenagers.

 

Here's the catalogue of their interactions:

 

1) They meet on Winternight in EotW. Lan doesn't really trust Thom because he didn't see him when the Trollocs showed up (it's a red herring). Thom doesn't trust Moiraine because he dislikes Aes Sedai.

 

2) They travel together for 11 days before being separated in Shadar Logoth. At this point, they've not really established a rapport, since Thom still doesn't trust Aes Sedai and tries to dissuade Mat and Rand from going to Tar Valon.

 

3) They don't meet again until over a year later, when they show up at the same time in Tear. They're in the same place for 19 days, then. I would infer that their interactions are pretty limited there because it's only on the day they both leave that they share what they know of each others' pasts, and then that they talk about Thom's knee (as Moiraine Heals it) which is old news.

 

4) Hard to say exactly how much time passes until they meet in the Tower of Ghenjei, but it's over a year later, and they immediately decide to get married.

[WhiskyJack]

The Finn feeding off Moraine's OP is interesting also seems to explain why Cyndane is so much weaker in the power than when she was Lanfear.

 

 

Cyadane is not "so much weaker" but weaker than Lanfear. She still most probably is the most powerful female channeler in WOT world. Also, Lanfear died. Otherwise there won't be a Cyndane.

[PatsNats28]

Counter argument is that our POVs have been through the perspective of others like Rand/Mat/Perrin, especially when they have not matured significantly yet.

[Sharaman]

Am I the only one that agrees with Mat, wondering exactly what the Thom/Moiraine relationship was based on? In its own way, it's even more baseless than the beginning of the Perrin/Faile relationship-they've probably spent less time together than any other couple in WoT to date, and they've decided to get married. They also aren't hormone-driven teenagers.

 

Here's the catalogue of their interactions:

 

1) They meet on Winternight in EotW. Lan doesn't really trust Thom because he didn't see him when the Trollocs showed up (it's a red herring). Thom doesn't trust Moiraine because he dislikes Aes Sedai.

 

2) They travel together for 11 days before being separated in Shadar Logoth. At this point, they've not really established a rapport, since Thom still doesn't trust Aes Sedai and tries to dissuade Mat and Rand from going to Tar Valon.

 

3) They don't meet again until over a year later, when they show up at the same time in Tear. They're in the same place for 19 days, then. I would infer that their interactions are pretty limited there because it's only on the day they both leave that they share what they know of each others' pasts, and then that they talk about Thom's knee (as Moiraine Heals it) which is old news.

 

4) Hard to say exactly how much time passes until they meet in the Tower of Ghenjei, but it's over a year later, and they immediately decide to get married.

 

The romance is a little forced. Especially on Moiraine's part since she's never shown any interest in men.

Thom is more easy-come easy-go and she has helped him several ways by keeping silence on his regicides, healing him, helping him get close to Elayne, and promising him revenge on the Reds who gentled Owain. Also old men find it fairly easy to fall for younger beautiful women and Moiraine is that.

I suppose you could say that they've both got a mutual respect for each other's minds?

[Kidicaris]

Am I the only one that agrees with Mat, wondering exactly what the Thom/Moiraine relationship was based on? In its own way, it's even more baseless than the beginning of the Perrin/Faile relationship-they've probably spent less time together than any other couple in WoT to date, and they've decided to get married. They also aren't hormone-driven teenagers.

 

Here's the catalogue of their interactions:

 

1) They meet on Winternight in EotW. Lan doesn't really trust Thom because he didn't see him when the Trollocs showed up (it's a red herring). Thom doesn't trust Moiraine because he dislikes Aes Sedai.

 

2) They travel together for 11 days before being separated in Shadar Logoth. At this point, they've not really established a rapport, since Thom still doesn't trust Aes Sedai and tries to dissuade Mat and Rand from going to Tar Valon.

 

3) They don't meet again until over a year later, when they show up at the same time in Tear. They're in the same place for 19 days, then. I would infer that their interactions are pretty limited there because it's only on the day they both leave that they share what they know of each others' pasts, and then that they talk about Thom's knee (as Moiraine Heals it) which is old news.

 

4) Hard to say exactly how much time passes until they meet in the Tower of Ghenjei, but it's over a year later, and they immediately decide to get married.

 

The romance is a little forced. Especially on Moiraine's part since she's never shown any interest in men.

Thom is more easy-come easy-go and she has helped him several ways by keeping silence on his regicides, healing him, helping him get close to Elayne, and promising him revenge on the Reds who gentled Owain. Also old men find it fairly easy to fall for younger beautiful women and Moiraine is that.

I suppose you could say that they've both got a mutual respect for each other's minds?

 

Yes, I agree. I was beginning to think I was the only one who felt this way. But a lot of people are really diggin' it, so I just chalked it up to me having a cold anorexic heart. I shed no tears when they embraced and just found their tender moments odd fitting.

 

I've said it before, but it seems my only recourse is to tell myself that a lot happened between those two that were were just not shown, maybe Thom and Moiraine were having romantic interludes between scenes of killing darkhounds and balefiring Bel'al. Perhaps a quick sweet song about a blue gem in the snow accompanied by the pinging of a harp. These are the lengths I must go through to swallow this romance between the cool Blue and the old Bard.