Nynaeve's Arc

[Crael123]

Her testing was amazing. And her threatening Myrelle was priceless. Thats as far as i have gotten. Healing Madness was cool but like why hadnt anybody been able to discover that before? I mean youd think it would be obvious seeing a massive growth of evil on somebody's brain. But whatever.

 

Rand scared me. His "thousands upon thousands of thorns" was a scary image.

[Baelorn]

I was just going to make this point. The really good AS are the ones that left the tower shortly after being raised. There are a few exceptions, but it seems staying fully inert in the wt seems to ruin these women. Nyn is a huge breath of fresh air. I have a feeling that she is going to be pivotal in bringing the AM to the tower and getting the ladies up off their keesters. It will most certainly be restructured and I think eggy's plan to send accepted off to WO and WF will open eyes too. It will be nice to see what the old school AS do with all these new fangled ideas.

 

Jen-

 

I really don't like that Egwene is going to send WT initiates to train with Windfinders and Wise Ones. It just seems completely pointless to me.

[Hopefire]

I was just going to make this point. The really good AS are the ones that left the tower shortly after being raised. There are a few exceptions, but it seems staying fully inert in the wt seems to ruin these women. Nyn is a huge breath of fresh air. I have a feeling that she is going to be pivotal in bringing the AM to the tower and getting the ladies up off their keesters. It will most certainly be restructured and I think eggy's plan to send accepted off to WO and WF will open eyes too. It will be nice to see what the old school AS do with all these new fangled ideas.

 

Jen-

 

I really don't like that Egwene is going to send WT initiates to train with Windfinders and Wise Ones. It just seems completely pointless to me.

I disagree. I see it as being by far the best decision she's made so far in the dealings of the White Tower with the outside world. If an exchange program could be set up with the Asha'man then I'd be doing cartwheels. While women and men obviously wield different halves of the Power, experience linking, experience seeing what the other half can do, and experience working together do to more than either side can do on its own would also be invaluable to all involved. Not to mention getting them over three thousand years of being conditioned to fear men who can channel.

 

Were I in Egwene's shoes, I'd be approaching the Ajahs now, and saying something like "While right now all our energy needs to be focused on the Last Battle, I'd like you to start thinking about the long term purpose of your Ajah. Yellow Ajah: I want a hospital in every major city in the world like Elayne has done in Caemlyn. White and Brown Ajahs: Rand has been setting up schools of higher learning; I want you to create similar schools all around the world. Grey Ajah: I want an embassy in every major city in the world, and I want you to actively be providing diplomatic services for every major power - a nonpartisan messaging service, transportation for diplomats via Travelling, etc. Blue Ajah: I want you to make arrangements with the guards and thieftakers of the nations of the world, to assist them in bringing criminals to justice. Green Ajah, Red Ajah: hopefully, Shadowspawn won't be a concern after the Last Battle, and the Taint has been removed; your Ajahs will serve no practical purpose. Give me a proposal as to what the long term goals of your Ajahs will be."

 

Get people out, get people doing stuff, and help the world. It'd make the White Tower stronger on the whole, and it'd help the world as a whole.

 

 

Anyhow, a bit about Nynaeve: I initially didn't like her. Back in the Eye of the World, The Great Hunt and The Dragon Reborn, she was my least favorite of the Emond's Fields crew. She cared about people, and she was the most determined of the Emond's Fields people not to forget where she came from in a lot of ways, but she also had a temper that was often comically childish, and I tended not to be too fond of her plotlines. I'm not sure where and when she started to grow on me; certainly before the last of Jordan's books. But somewhere along the way, she became my favorite character in the series, alongside Min.

 

What Rand said, in his last scene with Nynaeve in Towers of Midnight, pretty much says a lot of what I want to say about her:

"Your passion is part of you. I tried to be like them, though I wouldn't have admitted it. Cold. Always in control. It nearly destroyed me. That is strength to some, but it is not the only type of strength. Perhaps you could learn to control yourself a little more, but I like you as you are. It makes you genuine. I would not see you become another 'perfect' Aes Sedai with a painted mask of a face and no care for the feelings of others. To be Aes Sedai is to be what you decide it to be. Moiraine cared. You could see it in her, even when she was calm. The best Aes Sedai I've known are the ones who others complain aren't what an Aes Sedai should be."

 

Nynaeve, Cadsuane, Moiraine, Verin... there are others, certainly, but those four Aes Sedai more than most strike me as being the greatest female Aes Sedai in the books. There was once a time, reading the books, that I would have thought it was a compliment to Nynaeve to be included on that list; now, I think that it's a compliment to the other women to be included with Nynaeve. She still has her passion and her compassion and her stubborn nature; her stubbornness has been tempered by wisdom, but she's otherwise the same person she was.

[WhiskyJack]

Her testing was amazing. And her threatening Myrelle was priceless. Thats as far as i have gotten. Healing Madness was cool but like why hadnt anybody been able to discover that before? I mean youd think it would be obvious seeing a massive growth of evil on somebody's brain. But whatever.

 

Rand scared me. His "thousands upon thousands of thorns" was a scary image.

 

Nynaeve's delving ofcourse. Resolution it gives is off this universe;)..

[didymos]

Her testing was amazing. And her threatening Myrelle was priceless. Thats as far as i have gotten. Healing Madness was cool but like why hadnt anybody been able to discover that before? I mean youd think it would be obvious seeing a massive growth of evil on somebody's brain. But whatever.

 

The passage where she does it explains that her Delvings have been getting really, really good lately. And they were already pretty good to start with, but she'd never detected the "thorns" before then. That and it was just accepted "fact" that you couldn't fix it, so most people never even bothered. It doesn't really matter why that "fact" became accepted. We see stuff like this all the time in real life: everyone just "knows" something can't be done, so it doesn't get done. Then someone comes along who stubbornly thinks it can, and they actually make an effort and do it. It's always easy to say Discovery X should have been obvious or someone really should have made it after it's already happened. But the fact is, people overlook stuff or dismiss ideas or get distracted and forget to follow-up and then just forget entirely, etc. Progress is simply sporadic much of the time.

[Baelorn]

I disagree. I see it as being by far the best decision she's made so far in the dealings of the White Tower with the outside world.

 

I just see this as Egwene scheming to bind more women who can Channel to the WT instead of actually doing things that would benefit the world.

 

Maybe I just don't see the point. The deal with the WF is good because they can teach Accepted about dealing with weather but once those Accepted are AS and are able to teach...Meh. As for the WO I can't think of a reason to have any kind of exchange program there. I know Egwene thinks their training methods are just spectacular but I highly doubt most people would agree. If word gets out that women who go to the Tower have to train with Aiel I could actually see their recruitment numbers dwindling. Most people still see Aiel as savages.

 

I really hope Nynaeve sets Egwene straight. The AS ways are outdated and need changing.

[dwn]

I disagree. I see it as being by far the best decision she's made so far in the dealings of the White Tower with the outside world.

 

I just see this as Egwene scheming to bind more women who can Channel to the WT instead of actually doing things that would benefit the world.

 

Maybe I just don't see the point. The deal with the WF is good because they can teach Accepted about dealing with weather but once those Accepted are AS and are able to teach...Meh. As for the WO I can't think of a reason to have any kind of exchange program there. I know Egwene thinks their training methods are just spectacular but I highly doubt most people would agree. If word gets out that women who go to the Tower have to train with Aiel I could actually see their recruitment numbers dwindling. Most people still see Aiel as savages.

 

I really hope Nynaeve sets Egwene straight. The AS ways are outdated and need changing.

 

The point of the exercise is to get Accepted out in the world before they're fully indoctrinated as Aes Sedai. Like Nynaeve, Egwene recognizes the folly of being so isolated, but unline Nynaeve, the Amyrlin can't be so radical that she panics the more conservative elements in the Tower. We've seen a few other progressive elements among the Aes Sedai--Janya, Pevara, Tarna, Carlinya, Corele to name a few.

 

From the Wise Ones and Windfinders, the Aes Sedai can not only learn to accept a merit-based leadership, but also how women who can channel can be integrated into a society. The Kin will also serve as an example, particularly the influx of women who have actually had to live out in the world for much of their lives.

 

Given time, there will likely be an accord reached with the Asha'man as well. Given the chance, we've seen how well Asha'man and Aes Sedai can get along in practice. That will undoubtably spread. Just look how eager a few Aes Sedai were to bond men who could channel, even before the taint was cleansed. The Asha'man also give Aes Sedai (and other women) the chance at spouses who aren't guaranteed leave them premature widows.

 

-- dwn

[Cyf]

I think that *what* Egwene is doing with the Wise Ones and Seafolk is good -- they will do as dwn said, and help get them out there. However. Her goals are not good. She wants to bind them. Her own thoughts during the conversation deals with this. She's basically giving them a good deal hoping she can get them used to being a part of the Tower, so it can preside over them. This is all in her thoughts. She just can't seem to get out of the POV that the Tower is the center of everything.

[Viperswhip]

I read it is being that Nynaeve didn't cure "madness" just taint induced madness. Those may be two different beasts. Let's see if she can help someone that got caught in Machin Sin in the Ways and see if she can cure real madness. Maybe she can, most madness in real life is a result of chemical or electrical imbalances in the brain and a lot of healing with the One Power seems to be a blanket heal which gets everything. It's pretty clear that what she sees in Naef's head is the taint of the Dark One, not a general chemical imbalance. My guess also is that it was impossible to heal while the taint was still active and pulsing through their minds constantly; otherwise its way to much of a stretch to think that nobody from the AoL was able to delve as well as Nynaeve.

 

She has already healed compulsion, she did in on that guy in TGS that led Rand to Graendal.

[heltok]

Maybe she will get the chance to try her healing on Fain

[Jaglover]

Nynaeve is so much better now. In the beginning I found her really overbearing. She was quick to anger and prone to petulant name calling. She still does the latter but to a lesser degree. She healed stilling, helped cleanse saidin, and apparently madness. Who knows, she may be able to eliminate the effects of compulsion. And finally in this book she actually has an understanding of the failings and limitations of Aes Sedai. We can only hope that Egwene listens to her. Nynaeve is definitely one of the very few competent Aes Sedai.

 

Nynaeve was great once again.

 

Just a quick question re the timeline am I correct that the last time we see her is the dream battle at the WT?

 

If so we might get a POV in the next book that starts ten days or so before the meeting at Merrilor

 

Of all the major characters it is only her and Aviendha who seem to have scope for this in the next book.

[DemandredFO]

The only thing I wish Nyneave did more was tell Egwene to shove it where it came to the oaths. Other than that she was awesome. As to Nyneave outstripping AoL two things.

1. The world they live in requires effort and ambition to live; the AoL was a perfect world and invention was probably harder for them.

2. Even if they had healed madness, the taint would just drive them mad again. You needed the access keys, which no one would've trusted men with, and the Shadar Logoth evil.

[f3llyn]

The only thing I wish Nyneave did more was tell Egwene to shove it where it came to the oaths. Other than that she was awesome. As to Nyneave outstripping AoL two things.

1. The world they live in requires effort and ambition to live; the AoL was a perfect world and invention was probably harder for them.

2. Even if they had healed madness, the taint would just drive them mad again. You needed the access keys, which no one would've trusted men with, and the Shadar Logoth evil.

How do you figure the AoL was a perfect world? If so they would have no need for soldiers and such. They had high technology, but I wouldn't go as far to say that it was perfect.

[Crael123]

The only thing I wish Nyneave did more was tell Egwene to shove it where it came to the oaths. Other than that she was awesome. As to Nyneave outstripping AoL two things.

1. The world they live in requires effort and ambition to live; the AoL was a perfect world and invention was probably harder for them.

2. Even if they had healed madness, the taint would just drive them mad again. You needed the access keys, which no one would've trusted men with, and the Shadar Logoth evil.

How do you figure the AoL was a perfect world? If so they would have no need for soldiers and such. They had high technology, but I wouldn't go as far to say that it was perfect.

 

It was as close to a perfect world as possible

[Aesleyan]

One thing I never understood... quacks in our day and age claim most mental illnesses are (physical) chemical imbalances in the brain. Why then, couldn't mental illnesses be Healed?

 

This sort of thinking is what makes me think it's not so far-fetched to imagine Nynaeve might heal death in AMoL; doctors in our world do it all the time, with paddles, when hearts stop. Maybe you can restart the heart with spirit (as in our world with electricity), as well as the brain. I can't imagine it plausibly working with someone who's "three days dead" but I can imagine it working with someone who's two minutes dead without me being incredulous.

[balefireruinssteaks]

Age of Legends wasn't a perfect world. We think of it that way because they didn't have a concept of things like war, and crime was so low that it almost didn't matter and was handled swiftly and effectively.

 

But we see that there are as many problems as there are in this world. People don't fight to get on top by means of money or fame, but they fight to find new things that will better the world. But when they don't, the same emotions take effect. Mesaana wanted to be a teacher, but instead of letting her the Aes Sedai said she was unfit for research and that triggered her eventually turning to the Dark One.

 

I think Be'lal or Balthamel used to hang out in seedy "rif-raf" type bars, so we see that even in a "perfect" world there is still a pull toward the darker edges of our own humanity. It might not seem as extreme as wars and murders, but it was there to be picked at once the Dark One was freed.

 

People in the Age of Legends also were frustrated with their own arrogance, having figured that everything that could be discovered HAD been discovered, which was why it was so exciting when they found the Bore...because it represented something that they could do that was new and inclusive, also providing more opportunity for distinction, gaining a third name, etc.

 

The Age of Legends was far from perfect.

[didymos]

How do you figure the AoL was a perfect world? If so they would have no need for soldiers and such. They had high technology, but I wouldn't go as far to say that it was perfect.

 

Look for a reference to soldiers existing in their society before the War of Power broke out. You won't find one. That said, no, it wasn't perfect:

 

Barnes and Noble chat 11 November 2000

 

Peter Stogios from Toronto, Canada: Mr. Jordan, I loved your flashbacks to the Age of Legends in Book Four. I'm fascinated by how so many characters regard this Age as an incredible time when Aes Sedai could accomplish anything. Will we learn anything else about the Age of Legends in your upcoming books?

 

RJ: As far as what you'll find out about them, read and find out. I myself see the Age of Legends as a time that was very technological, with a technology based on the One Power. And thus, a place where things happened every day that would be considered miraculous to the people of the present time of the books. If you took someone from 500 years ago into the average house in the United States, they would think that what they were seeing had to be the product of magic, and they would believe that our world was an incredible time of wonder. They probably wouldn't see any of the warts that we see. And in the books this has happened in reverse, because the grand time is in the past.

 

A Crown of Swords book tour 12 October 1996, Cincinnati - Mike Lawson reporting

 

Also, another note concerning the pre-Bore Age of Legends...RJ had mentioned (in response to another question) that what the characters

believe does not make it so (Moiraine's statements were used as an example), so I asked whether the pre-Bore Age of Legends was the

Utopia that the characters believed it to be. His reply is paraphrased below:

 

Compared to their current world, it certainly would be a utopia. However, that doesn't mean that it wasn't perfect. Of course, outbreaks of

diseases were kept to a minimum, but it and other disasters of that ilk still occurred. Evil still existed, as well.

 

The Forsaken, for example, weren't exactly a stellar bunch to begin with. Semirhage, for example, was a sadist. (I'll skip his description of what a sadist is.) She went into her profession (the equivalent of a surgeon) because it provided an outlet for her sadism. (He then cited some studies that showed that there were more people with sadist tendencies in the medical profession, and surgeons in particular, to support his point.)

 

Aginor (whom he said after some prompting had several elements of the classic mad scientist type) was a biological scientist who never considered the consequences of his actions. Aginor would say, "I wonder what would happen if I took the Ebola virus and altered it to be an airborne virus." He'd go ahead and do just that, all without realizing he'd be creating a potentially unstoppable plague. All Aginor would reply to that was, "Hmm. Interesting." (Jordan then mentioned Aginor's creation of the Trollocs, their defects, "It was strong, big, tough to kill, and......stupid," and that it was the birth of the first Myrddraal that saved the Trollocs from being a complete failure.)

 

Even back in the Age of Legends, regular, ordinary folks could do some pretty nasty things. He then cited a study about a small town of

ordinary Germans in WW2 who did some pretty horrific things (I believe he was referring to the book "Hitler's Willing Executioners").

[mossman87]

Like almost everyone else, I loved Nyneave in this book. In all honesty, I've been a big fan of her's from the get-go, so my reaction isn't at all surprising. As far as her actions healing the madness and during the testing, it didn't surprise me since she she also channeled during her testing for Accepted and that wasn't even supposed to be possible.

 

What I find funny is her relationship with Cadsuane..They butt heads continually and really get on each others nerves and yet fail to see that they are pretty much the same person...Cadsuane is what Nynaeve is going to be when she gets older and vice versa. A hundred years on (Assuming Avienadha's viewings are wrong), she's going to be as legendary.

 

After all, name me another Aes Sedai whosedone more than she has...Helped fight Balinor and Aginor, captured Mogiedehan, helped kill Rhavin, figured out where Greandal was, figured out how to remove compulsion, participated in cleansing Saiden, completely cured stilling in men and partially in women (it isn't her fault that a complete cure requries a channeler from a different gender), raised the Malkieri nation (and their allies) to ride to Tarwin's Gap and now has cured the madness.

 

Not too bad a resume for a legend in the making...

 

A fit heir to Cadsuane, IMHO..

 

tud

 

 

Jesus Christ, I agree with your post but it takes so much mental strength to try and understand it. Do you have a deficiency by chance?

 

 

[didymos]

Jesus Christ, I agree with your post but it takes so much mental strength to try and understand it. Do you have a deficiency by chance?

 

Wow. A few misspellings and it's evidence of a "deficiency". Well, someone's certainly deficient with regards to tact.

[Pedigog]

Hello,

 

First time posting and not too sure where to post this question, but as it's about Nynaeve I will ask here.

 

In The Gathering Storm, Rand sent Lord Ramshalan to Graendal to be compulsed so he would know if he had the right placed or not. After he returned he asked Nynaeve to delve him to check if he was under compulsion, he was and she could see the weave. After he balefired Natrin's Barrow he asks her once again to delve him to check for compulsion, she did and he was now free of it. Suddenly in the latest book we are informed that it wasn't Graendal but Aran'gar who compulsed Lord Ramshalen. There for how did Nynaeve see the compulsion weave on him if Aran'gar channels Saidin and Saidar channellers cannot see or sense Saidin?

 

By the way Nynaeve was great in the latest installment.

[David Selig]

Delana Compelled Ramshallan too.

[blazetheearth]

I have loved the arc that Nynaeve has taken, with respect to growth and maturity. She is one of the few whose truly astounding accomplishments have mellowed them and made them more comfortable with herself. She has always been insecure and questioned her own ability, though usually only to herself, while she puts on an abrasive front and shouts down any who question her ability in the beginning (i.e. Wisdom), after joining the WT she gets even more insecure because EVERYTHING she knows is gone. Her entire world is upended. She never really wanted to leave Edmond's Field, she got pulled along by 3 tav'ern (she followed while everyone else was debating, seems it would have been more in character at the time to bully the rest into making a quick decision, and Min viewing make the Pattern pulling her specifically apparent). Unlike Egwene, Nyn didn't want an adventure out in the world. Then she finds out about the OP. And to see her fight through all of the insecurities and fears and become the woman who we see in ToM is awesome. She is someone who sets her goals and accomplishes them, usually in a spectacular fashion. It is awesome to see her as comfortable in her own skin as Mahatma Rand (as he's been referred to elsewhere) is in his. Totally self-confident in knowing who she is, what she has done and what she can and will do, and feeling no need to berate others, or necessarily bow to them either. Her growth has taken a long time and I really do think that the final discussion between her and Rand helped her, because she could feel his utter confidence and trust in her.

 

And I really hope that none of the Randbashers out there take that last statement to indicate that I am giving the credit to him. Not at all, though that he did make is and indication of his growth also. I do try to give all credit where credit is due, Because I also think Egwene deserves some credit, due to her parts in the testing (everyone rants about how tough the testing was and how it could have killed her, Light!, the woman herself thanked Egwene, said that it needed to be done! You weren't her, Get over it), Nyn felt that she learned a lot about herself in the testing, and it gave the opportunity for Nyn's wonderful speech about balefire. All in all, I think she has become a woman that almost anyone should feel proud if she deigned to call them "friend", and that is definitely not something I would have always said about her.

[Pedigog]

Thanks David,

 

Forgot she was there.

[kristineaskada]

I don't remember which one it was, but one of the Aes Sedai expressed surprise that Nynaeve thought she was going to Tarmon Gaidon.

 

Doesn't that seem odd? I mean - isn't EVERYONE going? Maybe not the novices who are still children, but I'd assume that all Aes Sedai, all accepted, and all the novices who can do anything useful and are old enough to not totally panic will be going. I mean - it's the LAST BATTLE.

 

Why would anyone be surprised that Nynaeve (who is one of the most powerful channelers the light has, as well as super healer) is going? Does that seem... odd, to anyone? I don't think it's anything sinister... it just seems out of place, maybe that some of the Aes Sedai haven't really figured out that THIS IS IT.

 

Well, they were 'surprised' because the Aes Sedai feel they control everything. Nyneave comes in and tells them what she is going to do and the surprise was more of a 'if we let you' kind of thing. They aren't used to not getting their way and not being able to manipulate. : )

[kristineaskada]

Mark Grayson, on 09 November 2010 - 11:10 PM, said:

 

Lancer, on 09 November 2010 - 11:01 PM, said:

 

So why didnt she Heal Rand of the Taint? Did that blinding light frighten her or what???

 

 

 

His madness was just too much work for her to fix at that time. She was really tired and she was summoned to the

White Tower and had to leave. I wouldn't be surprised if she tries to give it a go at a later time.

 

 

 

 

I hope she doesn't it would be a distaster Rand already has his own protection the light shielding his mind from the thorns of the web of taint. He somehow did that himself if Nynaeve was to meddle with this it could ruin his chances of winning the LB.

 

 

 

Rand's insanity web is so tangled and complicated I don't think even Nynaeve can Heal it. And there's no need to, since he had the Light Protection under it.

 

 

What if, after Rand has done his part for the Light in TG, the Light's protection goes away? Then he may need Nyneave to heal the madness. Or it may be what kills Rand, being suddenly thrown into that turmoil.