Elayne's Arc

[Charlz Guybon]

Elayne went back and forth for me in this book. On the one hand, I liked the way that she was trying to make Andor as strong and secure as possible to both be able to help Rand in the Last Battle and counter the Seanchan in the post-LB world, but on the other hand, given the number of times that she's been captured because of her idiocy, did she not figure that maybe going down alone to meet with the BA might not have been a good idea? Also, why were those BA's there anyways? Either execute them for being Darkfriends or toss them up to the Tower where there's more Aes Sedai to deal with them. It seems silly to just have them sitting around with a couple of people holding shields on them when she's personally seen how the Shadow sends people into dungeons to kill off captured BA members.

 

 

Because miss 'I'm so smart and powerful and all should bow to me now' always thinks she knows best, always is convinced she's better and stronger than others and always acts like a spoiled brat that wants her way (ever since she arrived in Andor to take the throne, I actually liked her better as Accepted). It's the same thing over and over again: arrogance. Nevermind how many lives and souls she risks, so long as she gets her way.

Don't give me that crap, that plan was brilliant. She had a shit ton of back up. The guardswomen on the other side of the gateway and the Kin on the other side of the cell door. The reason the plan failed is she's unlucky. The odds of her being interrupted by a successful escape attempt is astronomical. Mat's plan was far more risky in comparison and could have easily got Talmanes and the red arms killed. But of course since Mat's taveren he succeeded. That's all there is to it.

 

You're being sarcastic? It's hard to tell from your post..you don't really mean it was a brilliant plan? It was completely ridiculous is what it was, and another example of why Elayne has no business having the power she does. Every success she's ever had has been due to the acts and counsel of others. She stood on people's shoulders (Rand, Mat, Dyelin, Birgitte, etc.) to achieve what she has, and is somehow convinced she had something to do with it. It is mind-boggling how things like this are becoming such a noticeable pattern amongst the women in the series. Egwene behaves nearly as bad as she does, but I'd rather see Elayne bite the dust, kids or not, it'd be worth it to see her get killed because of her foolishness.

100% serious, Mat's Gholam plan was crap in comparison and far more risky. I'm not the only one who thinks it was good plan, I've read the whole thread and several people agree with me.

 

Dyelin

She's simply a foil who has been wrong nearly every time the two have disagreed.

 

Mat had nothing to do with her taking of the throne.

[AutomatedTeller]

My biggest problem with Elayne's plan isn't that it was good or bad.

 

It's...

 

well, it's like wearing a seatbelt.

 

I put one on everytime I get in car, out of habit, even though I've never been in a situation where it could help and don't anticipate ever being in a situation where it would make a difference. The thing is, though, that the consequences for not wearing one can be catastrophic.

 

A monarch must always do risk-reward analysis. If there was no one else to do that interrogation and it HAD to be done right then, then her plan makes sense.

 

But it wasn't critical at that point (she had just spent time watching a play, for god's sake) and there are plenty of channelers who could do the weave.

 

Fact is, she got an idea in her hand and she was unable to resist the impulse to do put it in place. She's not ta'varen and she put her entire realm at risk. You just can't do that thing as a monarch (which doesnt' stop monarchs from doing stuff like that all the time, of course)

[Charlz Guybon]

 

 

She's pregnant, she can't channel reliably

She has trouble grasping the source, once she's done that there are no problems.

[Mystica]

Elayne went back and forth for me in this book. On the one hand, I liked the way that she was trying to make Andor as strong and secure as possible to both be able to help Rand in the Last Battle and counter the Seanchan in the post-LB world, but on the other hand, given the number of times that she's been captured because of her idiocy, did she not figure that maybe going down alone to meet with the BA might not have been a good idea? Also, why were those BA's there anyways? Either execute them for being Darkfriends or toss them up to the Tower where there's more Aes Sedai to deal with them. It seems silly to just have them sitting around with a couple of people holding shields on them when she's personally seen how the Shadow sends people into dungeons to kill off captured BA members.

 

 

Because miss 'I'm so smart and powerful and all should bow to me now' always thinks she knows best, always is convinced she's better and stronger than others and always acts like a spoiled brat that wants her way (ever since she arrived in Andor to take the throne, I actually liked her better as Accepted). It's the same thing over and over again: arrogance. Nevermind how many lives and souls she risks, so long as she gets her way.

Don't give me that crap, that plan was brilliant. She had a shit ton of back up. The guardswomen on the other side of the gateway and the Kin on the other side of the cell door. The reason the plan failed is she's unlucky. The odds of her being interrupted by a successful escape attempt is astronomical. Mat's plan was far more risky in comparison and could have easily got Talmanes and the red arms killed. But of course since Mat's taveren he succeeded. That's all there is to it.

 

 

I'll give my opinion when I feel like it, thank you.

 

She's unlucky? That's your argument? I wasn't aware she's some sort of reversed ta'veren, where the Pattern continuously works 'against' her. Especially with her being labelled as 'imperative to the outcome of the LB' (as has been said of Andor, and so by extension refers to whoever rules it, cfr Elaida's Foretelling).

 

The odds of the Black Ajah being rescued are astronomical? When it has been done several times before? In the heart of two places flooded with Aes Sedai? When the Forsaken are loose and the LB is at hand? It's unlikely they 'would' be rescued to preserve their use for the Shadow? When it takes years to find and properly encorporate new darkfriend channelers and with the LB at the doorstep? With more than half of the Forsaken death and with it the Shadow's main generals decimated? It's unlikely they would be killed before they become a liability to the Shadow's plans? With Shaitan's Voice (that Myrdraal that makes Forsaken quake) out and about and able to move into àny space with a sliver of a shadow?

 

If the poor girl is that unlucky, she should let Dyelin be Queen and save Andor from her accident proned unfortunate. She should not risk the nation falling to her 'unlucky' nature and the consequences of her doomed actions (due to bad luck).

[dwn]

Because miss 'I'm so smart and powerful and all should bow to me now' always thinks she knows best, always is convinced she's better and stronger than others and always acts like a spoiled brat that wants her way (ever since she arrived in Andor to take the throne, I actually liked her better as Accepted). It's the same thing over and over again: arrogance. Nevermind how many lives and souls she risks, so long as she gets her way.

Don't give me that crap, that plan was brilliant. She had a shit ton of back up. The guardswomen on the other side of the gateway and the Kin on the other side of the cell door. The reason the plan failed is she's unlucky. The odds of her being interrupted by a successful escape attempt is astronomical. Mat's plan was far more risky in comparison and could have easily got Talmanes and the red arms killed. But of course since Mat's taveren he succeeded. That's all there is to it.

I'll give my opinion when I feel like it, thank you.

 

She's unlucky? That's your argument? I wasn't aware she's some sort of reversed ta'veren, where the Pattern continuously works 'against' her. Especially with her being labelled as 'imperative to the outcome of the LB' (as has been said of Andor, and so by extension refers to whoever rules it, cfr Elaida's Foretelling).

 

The odds of the Black Ajah being rescued are astronomical? When it has been done several times before? In the heart of two places flooded with Aes Sedai? When the Forsaken are loose and the LB is at hand? It's unlikely they 'would' be rescued to preserve their use for the Shadow? When it takes years to find and properly encorporate new darkfriend channelers and with the LB at the doorstep? With more than half of the Forsaken death and with it the Shadow's main generals decimated? It's unlikely they would be killed before they become a liability to the Shadow's plans? With Shaitan's Voice (that Myrdraal that makes Forsaken quake) out and about and able to move into àny space with a sliver of a shadow?

 

If the poor girl is that unlucky, she should let Dyelin be Queen and save Andor from her accident proned unfortunate. She should not risk the nation falling to her 'unlucky' nature and the consequences of her doomed actions (due to bad luck).

 

Elayne is unlucky that her attempt to interrogate the prisoners coincided with the rescue attempt. A half hour sooner or later would have changed the outcome entirely. The odds of her visiting the cells at such an unfortunate time are ridiculously long. Charlz Guybon obviously didn't mean Elayne was chronically jinxed.

 

-- dwn

[waffle]

Everyone should know that if you try something dangerous, then use main (or at least secondary) characters as your backup. That way you are safe. Some random Kin and guards? Pfft, they might aswell put on red shirts.

[David Selig]

Elayne's bodyguards were in on it, and waiting on the other side of the gateway. Her biggest mistake--and one she should be spanked for--was holding onto the foxhead medallion rather than wearing it.

If she was wearing it, it would've destroyed her Mirror of Mists disguise.

 

there are plenty of channelers who could do the weave.

Only other channellers she had available were the Kin, and I highly doubt any of them would want to try impersonating a Forsaken. Not sure if they could do all of the advanced weaves required either.

 

All in all objectively the plan had really low risk. I really don't get the complaints, considering that in every WoT books the characters do far more risky stuff all the time, often for less important reasons. in ToM alone, how many times was Perrin really close to death for example? Or Egwene, or Mat? All of them risked far more on several occassions, often with much less though out plans.

[GusE]

My main problem with her actions there is trying to shield and preserve the blacks when things were going out of control. If a cop faces 3 armed enemies he doesn't go up to the first one to disarm him and put him in cuffs while the others shoots him down, he shoots to kill. Elayne has fought with BA before, she should just take them out. (BTW, That really impressed me about Egwene in the last book, she should spread the word: no dealing with blacks, just kill on sight)

[waffle]

"Hmm, she said Andor would be invaded. Better take most of my army to the middle of nowhere"

 

Alright, alright, black sisters are not really the most reliable source of information. Can´t beat her up too badly for that.

 

The Forsaken imersonation was an okay plan. But going at it while her Warder was away and being happy about that seems... childish. A good plan otherwise.

 

 

Still don´t like her though. When she was rescued from the black sisters a book or two ago, and a whole lot of people had died because her plan had gone wrong, she didn´t really seem concerned or regretful. Just an "Oh bummer, got to get the Kin to heal me because all the AS are dead".

 

And trying to convince Mat that he was her subject. That was just infuriating.

 

She seems alright when she´s not being Queen Prim.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

Elayne went back and forth for me in this book. On the one hand, I liked the way that she was trying to make Andor as strong and secure as possible to both be able to help Rand in the Last Battle and counter the Seanchan in the post-LB world, but on the other hand, given the number of times that she's been captured because of her idiocy, did she not figure that maybe going down alone to meet with the BA might not have been a good idea? Also, why were those BA's there anyways? Either execute them for being Darkfriends or toss them up to the Tower where there's more Aes Sedai to deal with them. It seems silly to just have them sitting around with a couple of people holding shields on them when she's personally seen how the Shadow sends people into dungeons to kill off captured BA members.

 

 

Because miss 'I'm so smart and powerful and all should bow to me now' always thinks she knows best, always is convinced she's better and stronger than others and always acts like a spoiled brat that wants her way (ever since she arrived in Andor to take the throne, I actually liked her better as Accepted). It's the same thing over and over again: arrogance. Nevermind how many lives and souls she risks, so long as she gets her way.

Don't give me that crap, that plan was brilliant. She had a shit ton of back up. The guardswomen on the other side of the gateway and the Kin on the other side of the cell door. The reason the plan failed is she's unlucky. The odds of her being interrupted by a successful escape attempt is astronomical. Mat's plan was far more risky in comparison and could have easily got Talmanes and the red arms killed. But of course since Mat's taveren he succeeded. That's all there is to it.

 

 

I'll give my opinion when I feel like it, thank you.

 

She's unlucky? That's your argument? I wasn't aware she's some sort of reversed ta'veren, where the Pattern continuously works 'against' her. Especially with her being labelled as 'imperative to the outcome of the LB' (as has been said of Andor, and so by extension refers to whoever rules it, cfr Elaida's Foretelling).

 

The odds of the Black Ajah being rescued are astronomical? When it has been done several times before? In the heart of two places flooded with Aes Sedai? When the Forsaken are loose and the LB is at hand? It's unlikely they 'would' be rescued to preserve their use for the Shadow? When it takes years to find and properly encorporate new darkfriend channelers and with the LB at the doorstep? With more than half of the Forsaken death and with it the Shadow's main generals decimated? It's unlikely they would be killed before they become a liability to the Shadow's plans? With Shaitan's Voice (that Myrdraal that makes Forsaken quake) out and about and able to move into àny space with a sliver of a shadow?

 

If the poor girl is that unlucky, she should let Dyelin be Queen and save Andor from her accident proned unfortunate. She should not risk the nation falling to her 'unlucky' nature and the consequences of her doomed actions (due to bad luck).

 

The odds of the BA being rescued are not astronomical. The odds that the BA are being rescued at the SAME time that she is conducting the interrogation is (I wouldn't say astronomical) quite large and unlikely. I mean, it has been, how many days already since they were captured?

[Mystica]

fact is and remains, she doesn't learn from her previous mistakes that led to almost disasters time and again. When facing the Black Ajah and the Forsaken with the DO half free, you don't leave ànything to chance. Especially when you're leading a nation that's supposed to play a pivotal role in the LB. For one thing, if Birgitte had been outside guarding the door, Elayne would have known the moment the other BA arrived through the bond alone and would have been forewarned. That alone is a serious tactical mistake.

[Charlz Guybon]

fact is and remains, she doesn't learn from her previous mistakes that led to almost disasters time and again. When facing the Black Ajah and the Forsaken with the DO half free, you don't leave ànything to chance. Especially when you're leading a nation that's supposed to play a pivotal role in the LB. For one thing, if Birgitte had been outside guarding the door, Elayne would have known the moment the other BA arrived through the bond alone and would have been forewarned. That alone is a serious tactical mistake.

And Birgitte would probably be dead as a result.

[dwn]

Elayne's bodyguards were in on it, and waiting on the other side of the gateway. Her biggest mistake--and one she should be spanked for--was holding onto the foxhead medallion rather than wearing it.

If she was wearing it, it would've destroyed her Mirror of Mists disguise.

 

Elayne was holding the original medallion in her hand--it unravelled Eldrith's attempt to shield her. Only her copies seem to interfere with the wearer's own channelling. She should have worn the thing around her neck to keep her hands free and eliminate the risk of losing it.

 

-- dwn

[David Selig]

I thought the Mirror of Mists weaves touch her body, so if she had put on the foxhead medallion, they would've unravelled and thus destroy her disguise.

 

But rereading the scene, it doesn't seem to be case. The disguise still holds even after she took the medallion in her hand, which is weird. Shouldn't it have touched the Mirror of Mists surrounding her and unravelled it?

[Sharaman]

I thought the Mirror of Mists weaves touch her body, so if she had put on the foxhead medallion, they would've unravelled and thus destroy her disguise.

 

But rereading the scene, it doesn't seem to be case. The disguise still holds even after she took the medallion in her hand, which is weird. Shouldn't it have touched the Mirror of Mists surrounding her and unravelled it?

The original doesn't interfere with any weaves done by the person who wears it.

That is probably the key issue with the copies - they do interfere with all weaves in the vicinity.

[randsc]

Do any of you Elayne defenders want to explain how failing to share with Mat the fact that she has given a rather important new weapon (the copy) to the Shadow is in any way responsible?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Do any of you Elayne defenders want to explain how failing to share with Mat the fact that she has given a rather important new weapon (the copy) to the Shadow is in any way responsible?

 

The flawed copies she made are something of a mixed blessing. Their Shadowspawn harming qualities will do the Dark no good. Their weave unravelling qualities will do the Dark no good because no channeler can wear one and channel successfully. The Dark, being the Dark and stupid besides, doesn't value any of their non-channeling commanders, so who exactly is going to wear the one flawed copy they have?

 

Elayne is not alone in being unwilling to admit her mistakes. Thus far Rand is the only main character who is willing to admit he has goofed. That humility has only come in the last book.

[Muad Cheade]

Do any of you Elayne defenders want to explain how failing to share with Mat the fact that she has given a rather important new weapon (the copy) to the Shadow is in any way responsible?

Because she didn't lose the original. The one she lost negates the ability to channel in channelers who wear it, although we still have to see if the Shadow can duplicate ter'angreal.

[randsc]

Do any of you Elayne defenders want to explain how failing to share with Mat the fact that she has given a rather important new weapon (the copy) to the Shadow is in any way responsible?

Because she didn't lose the original. The one she lost negates the ability to channel in channelers who wear it, although we still have to see if the Shadow can duplicate ter'angreal.

 

 

So what? She still gave them an important (if imperfect) weapon, was presented with an opportunity to come clean about that fact to someone who may well be in a position to do something about it, and failed to do so.

 

There would be a certain amount of karmic justive in Hanlon keeping the thing himself, causing Elayne to be unable to defend herself when next they meet.

[Cyf]

She's unlucky? That's your argument? I wasn't aware she's some sort of reversed ta'veren, where the Pattern continuously works 'against' her. Especially with her being labelled as 'imperative to the outcome of the LB' (as has been said of Andor, and so by extension refers to whoever rules it, cfr Elaida's Foretelling).

 

Just a note, but the prophecy talks about the royal blood of Andor -- and was doing so /when Tigraine was on the throne/. It's actually about Rand and his family.

 

Elaida, being Elaida, was just a freaking moron.

[waffle]

Do any of you Elayne defenders want to explain how failing to share with Mat the fact that she has given a rather important new weapon (the copy) to the Shadow is in any way responsible?

Because she didn't lose the original. The one she lost negates the ability to channel in channelers who wear it, although we still have to see if the Shadow can duplicate ter'angreal.

 

 

So what? She still gave them an important (if imperfect) weapon

 

a weapon? I don´t really see how the medallion can be weaponized. Maybe throw it at Rand while he´s sealing the Bore? Unlikely.

[randsc]

Are you serious? A medallion that prevents you from direct attack with the One Power isn't a weapon? In a war in which both sides have channelers? Don't be a silly bugger.

[Mystica]

fact is and remains, she doesn't learn from her previous mistakes that led to almost disasters time and again. When facing the Black Ajah and the Forsaken with the DO half free, you don't leave ànything to chance. Especially when you're leading a nation that's supposed to play a pivotal role in the LB. For one thing, if Birgitte had been outside guarding the door, Elayne would have known the moment the other BA arrived through the bond alone and would have been forewarned. That alone is a serious tactical mistake.

And Birgitte would probably be dead as a result.

 

That's quite true, good point.

 

 

She's unlucky? That's your argument? I wasn't aware she's some sort of reversed ta'veren, where the Pattern continuously works 'against' her. Especially with her being labelled as 'imperative to the outcome of the LB' (as has been said of Andor, and so by extension refers to whoever rules it, cfr Elaida's Foretelling).

 

Just a note, but the prophecy talks about the royal blood of Andor -- and was doing so /when Tigraine was on the throne/. It's actually about Rand and his family.

 

Elaida, being Elaida, was just a freaking moron.

 

I thought Elaida had that foretelling when Morgase was holding the throne of Andor. I wasn't talking about any prophecy, as I can't recall any that talked about Andor.

[Random Man]

Do any of you Elayne defenders want to explain how failing to share with Mat the fact that she has given a rather important new weapon (the copy) to the Shadow is in any way responsible?

Because she didn't lose the original. The one she lost negates the ability to channel in channelers who wear it, although we still have to see if the Shadow can duplicate ter'angreal.

 

 

So what? She still gave them an important (if imperfect) weapon, was presented with an opportunity to come clean about that fact to someone who may well be in a position to do something about it, and failed to do so.

 

There would be a certain amount of karmic justive in Hanlon keeping the thing himself, causing Elayne to be unable to defend herself when next they meet.

Elayne would be aware of the limitations of the ter'angreal, so Hanlon wouldn't be as dangerous to her as he would be to another Aes Sedai. Provided she recognized him or the effects of direct channeling, and knowing that she knows he has it, she'd just drop a wall on him, or throw a chair at him, or propel a belt knife into his throat. He might get an advantage against her if he catches her unaware, though, considering what troubles she's had with the Power due to her pregnancy.

[waffle]

Are you serious? A medallion that prevents you from direct attack with the One Power isn't a weapon? In a war in which both sides have channelers? Don't be a silly bugger.

 

It protects against direct weaves. And prevents the user from accessing the one power. In battle people use lightning, waves of fire and exploding earth. Medallion doesn´t protect against those. And like she said, it doesn´t protect at all from powerful channelers.

 

Unless the lightsiders try something silly like holding their opponents with weaves of air instead of blasting them with fire it doesn´t matter.

 

Fine, it can be used for assassinations, but in war? It would have to be mass produced. I think they are a little too busy or that.