The Nature of Tel'aran'rhiod

[Sharaman]

You can apparently channel all 5 in the dream.

Channeling appears to be a genuine phenomenon because the weaves often misfire and cause random damage.

That wouldn't happen with "imaginary" weaves.

For example, balefire all over the place and fire all over the place in various TAR channeler battles damages walls, kills the wrong person(s), etc.

[Danvighar]

I had forgotten about the viewing of Carlinya, and now I am wondering if that wasn't something that was missed by Brandon and Co. The viewing is more specific than just Seanchan. Raven tatoos, if I remember correctly, are only specifically mentioned as being on Deathwatch Guards and Seekers. If Carlinya had any contact with either of those groups, it must have happened off camera.

 

BS has stated that Carlinya's death was not a mistake. The theory that Min's vision had something to do with the Seanchan was apparently wrong.

 

-- dwn

AFAIK, he also RAFO-ed the death so we may just have it coming up again.

TAR is almost guaranteed to play a big role in AMoL - the BT, the Cyndane-LTT thing, maybe an explanation for Nakomi, Slayer, etc., are still live angles where TAR could pop up again.

 

 

I bet we find out one of two things:

1 (most likely): Coincidentally, a Bloodknife killed her body about the same time as that attack.

2: One of the Darkfriends with Mesaana is an Atha'an Shadar, a Seanchan Darkfriend.

[dwn]

You can apparently channel all 5 in the dream.

Channeling appears to be a genuine phenomenon because the weaves often misfire and cause random damage.

That wouldn't happen with "imaginary" weaves.

For example, balefire all over the place and fire all over the place in various TAR channeler battles damages walls, kills the wrong person(s), etc.

 

I think what people are referring to is the claim in TDR (I think) that you can only channel spirit in the real world while asleep. I believe this was regarding the dreamweaver ter'angreal stolen by Liandrin and Friends (*) that required channelling (spirit) to work.

 

We see nearly anything and everything channelled within T'A'R itself.

 

-- dwn

 

* The POVs from Liandrin's group always struck me as funny. That group would make for a good WoT sitcom spinoff.

[Byzantine279]

I believe it was also stated in reference to Rand being afraid of what he might do when he is asleep, he asked due to the portal stone incident, he was afraid he might start throwing fire or something I would imagine.

[rane008]

Ok, All, I have an observation I'd like to put on the table. How can the One Power be the driving force of the Wheel (and by extension, have some form or effect on all worlds of the Age Lace) and yet be completely beaten in TAR? The laws there are different, and it is getting more and more apparent that TAR will play a decisive role in the LB. BTW, could you break cuendillar in TAR? RJ once said there is another way to break it aside from the DO's touch.

[Corvinus]

I had a thought about Slayer and I am posting it here because I don't know if there is another thread that might have this.

 

Several times in the fights between Perrin and Slayer, Slayer's physical strength is mentioned. In fact, Slayer seems to be stronger than Perrin, even though his physique is similar to Lan's (or Rand's). But Lan is not stronger than Perrin. I personally believe that this strength is one of the many gifts the DO gave Slayer, and he is just as strong in the real world, too. The reason why I don't think Slayer's strength is TAR related is because physical strength falls in the same category with trying to heal your body and such. Slayer himself says that one cannot wish himself to get well, which to me means that one also cannot wish himself to be stronger. It may be possible, since one is able to replenish his blood flow, to increase one's adrenaline level.

I for one think that Slayer is very strong physically all the time, maybe similar to the gholam.

[dwn]

Ok, All, I have an observation I'd like to put on the table. How can the One Power be the driving force of the Wheel (and by extension, have some form or effect on all worlds of the Age Lace) and yet be completely beaten in TAR? The laws there are different, and it is getting more and more apparent that TAR will play a decisive role in the LB. BTW, could you break cuendillar in TAR? RJ once said there is another way to break it aside from the DO's touch.

 

The One Power may be infinite, but what a person channels isn't. When he stopped balefire, Perrin didn't change the reality of the OP; he changed the reality of the weaving.

 

The idea that cuendillar can be unmade in T'A'R has some merit. You'd have to physically take it in, and I expect it'd be extremely hard to disbelieve its invulnerability, but it seems like it'd be possible.

 

-- dwn

[WhiteJoker]

I had a thought about Slayer and I am posting it here because I don't know if there is another thread that might have this.

 

Several times in the fights between Perrin and Slayer, Slayer's physical strength is mentioned. In fact, Slayer seems to be stronger than Perrin, even though his physique is similar to Lan's (or Rand's). But Lan is not stronger than Perrin. I personally believe that this strength is one of the many gifts the DO gave Slayer, and he is just as strong in the real world, too. The reason why I don't think Slayer's strength is TAR related is because physical strength falls in the same category with trying to heal your body and such. Slayer himself says that one cannot wish himself to get well, which to me means that one also cannot wish himself to be stronger. It may be possible, since one is able to replenish his blood flow, to increase one's adrenaline level.

I for one think that Slayer is very strong physically all the time, maybe similar to the gholam.

There's a difference actually. You can't heal yourself in the dream because the wounds you take show up on your waking body. You can't will those close. You however can make yourself "stronger" by willing, say, a brick wall to be only as strong as tissue.

 

You can also will yourself to be stronger by willing somebody else to think they're weaker.

[dwn]

I had a thought about Slayer and I am posting it here because I don't know if there is another thread that might have this.

 

Several times in the fights between Perrin and Slayer, Slayer's physical strength is mentioned. In fact, Slayer seems to be stronger than Perrin, even though his physique is similar to Lan's (or Rand's). But Lan is not stronger than Perrin. I personally believe that this strength is one of the many gifts the DO gave Slayer, and he is just as strong in the real world, too. The reason why I don't think Slayer's strength is TAR related is because physical strength falls in the same category with trying to heal your body and such. Slayer himself says that one cannot wish himself to get well, which to me means that one also cannot wish himself to be stronger. It may be possible, since one is able to replenish his blood flow, to increase one's adrenaline level.

I for one think that Slayer is very strong physically all the time, maybe similar to the gholam.

 

My understanding is that Slayer's two souls effectively give his belief double the 'weight' in T'A'R. Perrin perceives him as strong because Perrin is effectively fighting two men at once.

 

-- dwn

[Exy]

This is back from page one, but I think the speculation on why the Dark One couldn't transmigrate Asmodean's soul is missing the point. We have no idea how he died -- but it's most likely that the Dark One just doesn't want to reincarnate the soul of a traitor. He's got better things to do that give a second chance to one of the weakest Chosen after the dude screwed him over.

[Corvinus]

I had a thought about Slayer and I am posting it here because I don't know if there is another thread that might have this.

 

Several times in the fights between Perrin and Slayer, Slayer's physical strength is mentioned. In fact, Slayer seems to be stronger than Perrin, even though his physique is similar to Lan's (or Rand's). But Lan is not stronger than Perrin. I personally believe that this strength is one of the many gifts the DO gave Slayer, and he is just as strong in the real world, too. The reason why I don't think Slayer's strength is TAR related is because physical strength falls in the same category with trying to heal your body and such. Slayer himself says that one cannot wish himself to get well, which to me means that one also cannot wish himself to be stronger. It may be possible, since one is able to replenish his blood flow, to increase one's adrenaline level.

I for one think that Slayer is very strong physically all the time, maybe similar to the gholam.

There's a difference actually. You can't heal yourself in the dream because the wounds you take show up on your waking body. You can't will those close. You however can make yourself "stronger" by willing, say, a brick wall to be only as strong as tissue.

 

You can also will yourself to be stronger by willing somebody else to think they're weaker.

 

OK, but in that case wouldn't Perrin realize that Slayer is trying to impose his will on him and then retaliate against that.

And then there's the moment when Perrin hits a statue with his hammer, and the chips fly into Slayer. Slayer reacts by turning his clothing into a much stronger material to repel the stone chips. Why didn't he turn his entire skin into an impenetrable material? Because he can't, because I think there limits of how one can affect his own body. I think that strength comes directly from his muscles and bones.

[apbadd]

Why didn't he turn his entire skin into an impenetrable material? Because he can't, because I think there limits of how one can affect his own body. I think that strength comes directly from his muscles and bones.

 

Slayer is in TAR in person, I imagine that plays a role in his limits.

[smileyman]

For a visual representation of how T'A'R can really work, I think you couldn't do better than to watch the movie Inception. In watching it the first thing I thought of when it started was T'A'R, and as the rules of the dream world were explained, I kept saying to myself "Yep, that's T'A'R all right".

[Byzantine279]

To a degree, smiley. In Inception the dreamer is in control of the environment, in TAR anyone can manipulate it, given enough experience.

[r2debo]

Tel'aran'rhiod reveals the philosophy of RJ. John Locke hypothesized that existence is an idea in the mind of man. Tel'aran'rhiod reveals this perfectly. Whatever a person wills, it becomes true. The stronger the will (the idea in the mind of a person), the more real the idea becomes. Stronger even than the One Power. Persons closest to the Wheel remain in TAR, like the wolf, telling us that existence is a matter of the will, or an idea.

 

What is interesting is that in TAR the will of man is stronger than in the waking world. It seems to me that the will of the Creator is the "idea" that governs the waking world whereas TAR is sort of like the collective consciousness of the world. The relationship of the two is designed to tell us that there does exist a will that governs the WOT reality: it is an idea in the mind of the Creator, ala Jonathan Edwards.

 

I think what makes TAR so dangerous is that it is (possibly) ruled by the will of limited, finite man whereas reality is ruled by the will of the infinite, infinite Creator. When the wolf dies there, they die forever. Is this true, too, of a person?

 

The ter'angreal that are used for testing (and possibly the columns) tap into the power of the will, creating worlds through ideas.

[Zodd]

Another thing. The DSpike. Do people feel the method of dome penetration is new/unique to wolves?

Or else, could LTT walk through., Hazily, I'm wondering if Rand tries to raid the BT in TAR and lands up in trouble from which Perrin must rescue him.

The viewing Min had of Rand needing saving by Perrin twice, I always thought was connected to the one she has in the same breath: that he [Rand] will be hurt by Aes Sedai, badly [ala Dumai's Wells]. Before I thought the second saving came atop Dragonmount, and was disappointed by it. This might just be the clue I was looking for there, thx.

[mothersmilkinacup]

anyone else think it is impossible to channel in the dream?

 

I mean think about it, we have heard you can only channel spirit while you sleep. I think those that are channeling in the dream are actualy just imagining ite, they just believe they are doing it very strongly, so the dream follows suit.

 

This is related to something that has really cheesed my doodle about this book. In previous books, you can channel spirit in your sleep and all five powers in TAR. However, you can only channel at full power in TAR if you are a dreamwalker or you use the "good" terangreal (the one that Verin gave Egwene). If you are using one of Elayne's copies or one of the ters that requires spirit to make it work, you can barely channel at all in TAR. This is shown a number of times in the earlier books. Most notably when Nyneave captures Mogi with the a'dam to help Rand fight Rahvin. Mogi says sowething like "we're linked, but you contribute virtually nothing being TAR like you are".

 

The majority of the people (Black Ajah and Aes Sedai) would need to be using the channeling TAR ters... and they are seem to be channeling at full power. wtf???

 

Is this a major oopsie daisy or am did my dealer sell me the cheap crack??

[Sharaman]

It's been discussed - no answers yet to this puzzle. I'm sure Brandon will be asked.

One possible retcon - although the BA are inexperienced, Mesaana is not and she could have taught them a workaround.

[Cornelia]

In this case it would have been one of the Seanchan assassins who killed her. So the viewing would make sense.

[Mulk]

I don't know. Maybe I'm oversimplifying, but I see no conflict at all. Carlinya died either by Seanchan assassin or by BA. The raven is a symbol of both the Dark one's servant (they are part of the group called the Dark One's Eyes after all) and of the Seanchan. Either way, it works for me. /shrug

[Mulk]

Mogi says sowething like "we're linked, but you contribute virtually nothing being TAR like you are".

 

Nynaeve contributed nothing not because she was as she was in T'AR, but because she was not angry and so was unable to channel at will. At least, that is my opinion.

[Terrapin]

So does anyone have an opinion on what the significance of Verin saying that Tar is a third constant besides the creator and the dark one? When Egwene is in Tar and looking at the new window in the tower, an addition is made to the Aes Sedai Symbol. A white tear drop, a black fang, and a new symbol for Tar. This just seems to important to introduce without having some importance, especially this close to the end. I view any new concepts at this stage as explicitly important to the outcome of the books. I'm new to the theory threads so haven't really come up with anything good yet.

[ROB_88]

one thing i don't really understand.

it seems like Perrin after just a few weeks of training is now alot better in TAR than Egwene who has trained for a year or more, depeniong on the timeline.

[bjsm]

one thing i don't really understand.

it seems like Perrin after just a few weeks of training is now alot better in TAR than Egwene who has trained for a year or more, depeniong on the timeline.

 

Perrin, being a wolfbrother, has a great deal of natural talent in TAR. Egwene has some natural talent as a Dreamer, but I think of being a Dreamer as a much weaker version of being a wolfbrother (plus the prophetic dreams, which as far as we know, Perrin does not have).

[Sharaman]

one thing i don't really understand.

it seems like Perrin after just a few weeks of training is now alot better in TAR than Egwene who has trained for a year or more, depeniong on the timeline.

 

Perrin, being a wolfbrother, has a great deal of natural talent in TAR. Egwene has some natural talent as a Dreamer, but I think of being a Dreamer as a much weaker version of being a wolfbrother (plus the prophetic dreams, which as far as we know, Perrin does not have).

Perrin has prophetic dreams in TDR, I think. He see the Supergirls captured IIRC.