Verin's Letters

[dwn]

To put things in perspective, we've now seen Whitecloaks accept healing. Mat's reaction to Aes Sedai and the One Power borders on psychosis.

 

-- dwn

 

I agree. Mat is being childish about this and many other things as well. But I don’t see how this relates to the letter at all. They are two completely separate issues.

 

Verin and Mat made a bargain. Verin provided a service for which Mat had two payment options. Mat chose option 2.

 

 

The point is that a rational person doesn't want to get tangled up in an Aes Sedai plot, but recognizes that Verin isn't likely to be frivolous or downright ridiculous in her request. A rational person sees that should her instructions be truly loathsome, he can choose to ignore the agreement and face whatever consequences come of doing so.

 

Yet Mat is so terrified of Aes Sedai and the One Power that he loses all sense of reason and bolts. Look how frightened he was after removing the foxhead medallion when negotiating with Elayne. He wouldn't even accept healing after his eye has been plucked out!

 

I suspect the assault on Caemlyn, and the guilt he'll feel at not preventing it, may be something that will break through his paranoia.

 

-- dwn

[David Selig]

A rational person sees that should her instructions be truly loathsome, he can choose to ignore the agreement and face whatever consequences come of doing so.

This is not how things work in Randland and especially for Mat. Giving your word is a really big deal in this world and you can't just break it if you don't like what you have to do.

[GB]

did galad get a letter from verin?

[dwn]

A rational person sees that should her instructions be truly loathsome, he can choose to ignore the agreement and face whatever consequences come of doing so.

This is not how things work in Randland and especially for Mat. Giving your word is a really big deal in this world and you can't just break it if you don't like what you have to do.

 

Of course it's a bit deal. It's a big deal in our world as well. Yet if Verin's instructions were something like "Kill Elayne Trakand", then Mat would clearly be right to break his word. In a situation like that, Verin herself could be said to have broken the spirit of such an the agreement.

 

-- dwn

[Deathwatch Bloodknife]

Why did Mat's Luck and Ta'averen-ness keep him from opening the letter? IWas it merely his suspicion or something else? If he needed to stop the Trollocs, etc. from using the Waygate - wouldn't he have been pushed to open the letter sooner?

 

He probably should have thrown some dice to determine whether he should open it. From now on, Mat should roll a dice or spin around when making any important decisions.

[Jeangray]

No, Verin is no Hero. Verin didn’t take one for the team.

 

By this logic no undercover agent can be a hero, if they had to do evil things in order to keep their position. No matter what disasters they prevented, no matter how many lives they saved. IMHO, it required far greater courage and sacrifice than dying on the field of battle or refusing the BA and being killed by them.

 

Speaking of Verin's letter, it occured to me that maybe she had to include a loophole that made it possible that Mat would never open the letter in her instructions, in order to fool her Oaths. IIRC, she does something similar by giving a letter to Rand to a SAS and asking her to hand it over when Rand comes to TV. It seems that giving the letter to somebody actually in Rand's entourage would have been simpler and more reliable, so she likely had a reason to go the convoluted way. Capable as she was, Verin managed to play most of her cards right and have most of her info acted upon, but she concoted her scheme for Mat based on what she learned about him in TGH/TDR - i.e. the guy who went for a stroll through Shadar Logoth and chose to grab some loot there ;).

 

Anyway, the greater question is why reading the letter would have somehow prevented Mat from going to rescue Moiraine.

His psychosis re: OP and AS is a little tiring by now, though.

[dwn]

Speaking of Verin's letter, it occured to me that maybe she had to include a loophole that made it possible that Mat would never open the letter in her instructions, in order to fool her Oaths. IIRC, she does something similar by giving a letter to Rand to a SAS and asking her to hand it over when Rand comes to TV. It seems that giving the letter to somebody actually in Rand's entourage would have been simpler and more reliable, so she likely had a reason to go the convoluted way. Capable as she was, Verin managed to play most of her cards right and have most of her info acted upon, but she concoted her scheme for Mat based on what she learned about him in TGH/TDR - i.e. the guy who went for a stroll through Shadar Logoth and chose to grab some loot there ;).

 

I don't think there was an explicit loophole like that, but she was surely skirting close to her oaths. She stutters at one point in the TGS scene, likely because she came to cose to revealing a secret. As a fail-safe, it's likely the letters were warded to keep them from being read before time.

 

I think the letter to Rand was given to Tiana because Verin only learned of its concerns (likely about Mattin Stepaneos) when she was in Tar Valon. After all, Verin did manage to get one to Alanna.

 

--dwn

[Bob T Dwarf]

I can't see any feasible explanation for why Verin would want the attack to happen -- at this point. But since Mat didn't rip the letter open by accident or leave it around for Olver to open earlier, it seems that the Pattern certainly didn't have any...intention...for lack of a better word...for Mat to know.

 

I see it the opposite way. The Wheel keeps putting opportunities in Mat's path for him to overcome his paranoia, and incidentally grow-up. If the Last Battle is going to be won, Mat needs to be a fully-functioning Big Boy.

 

Mat keeps declining to do that, with ever increasing cost to those around him. The situation in Caemlyn being the latest cost for his irrationality.

 

Following through on your given word is a big deal and ignorance of the cost when making that deal is no excuse. What Mat keeps trying to do is weasel out of the implicit deal he made when he chose to leave Emond's Field; that he would accept the role the Wheel had chosen for him.

 

Realistically, it should take some time for him to do that. However, he should not still be in the denial phase after thirteen books.

[NetSlider]

I can't see any feasible explanation for why Verin would want the attack to happen -- at this point. But since Mat didn't rip the letter open by accident or leave it around for Olver to open earlier, it seems that the Pattern certainly didn't have any...intention...for lack of a better word...for Mat to know.

 

I see it the opposite way. The Wheel keeps putting opportunities in Mat's path for him to overcome his paranoia, and incidentally grow-up. If the Last Battle is going to be won, Mat needs to be a fully-functioning Big Boy.

 

Mat keeps declining to do that, with ever increasing cost to those around him. The situation in Caemlyn being the latest cost for his irrationality.

 

Following through on your given word is a big deal and ignorance of the cost when making that deal is no excuse. What Mat keeps trying to do is weasel out of the implicit deal he made when he chose to leave Emond's Field; that he would accept the role the Wheel had chosen for him.

 

Realistically, it should take some time for him to do that. However, he should not still be in the denial phase after thirteen books.

 

Now you being personal on Mat and I can not stand aside:

 

First, Mat never made any "deal" with the Wheel - he was chosen as a taveran. Just because a man wants to have some control over his life does not make him a kid. If anything, he thinks as adult - for himself and actually tries to have an active role in life instead of "oh, if pattern says so, than be it so."

 

Second, Mat takes on his responsibilities very well - he became a great general and a leader and out of three of them he probably done more conscience things to prepare for the LB than Perrin or Rand did (ok, I'll give you Rand; he did do more). He said so himself, when the time comes he'll do his part and he thinks about LB all the time, unlike some I can name (the world can burn if Faile is not with me or WT is whole now; therefore, the world is whole...).

 

Third, increasing cost to people around him? Like what? What did he do to cost people around him? Actually being a center of Forsaken attention for more than freaking 5 chapters? If Golam (sp) went after Perrin, or Egghead, or any of them they would be dead in a minute or at least have a lot more people dead around them. Mat actually never failed anyone (remember Aram (sp) or Nikola (sp)...yeah....) Instead he actually saved people multiple times. He's the only one who did not need rescue since tGH b/c he's an adult with brains that not only takes care of himself but others as well. Sure, so people died around him, but not because he did something stupid or rash or ignored something.

 

Fourth, being Big Boy? Just because someone smiles like they were born yesterday it does not mean they actually were. Out of all of the characters (the original Two River people I mean) he's probably the most adult (Nyn came around very well as well). Sure he gets into funky situations and sure his thought process is weird but that does not make him irresponsible boy. Remember the story Bashire told Rand about his uncle giving burial to 22 oaks or such, well great minds don't always think in a straight forward lines, but they are still great.

 

Mat is by far a freaking genius in the whole serious and there is a good reason why RJ thought about writing more about him after LB. Your dislike and straight out hate for him is undeserved and I really don't see where you coming from on this whole thing.

[Bob T Dwarf]

-snipped a bunch of stuff -

Mat is by far a freaking genius in the whole serious and there is a good reason why RJ thought about writing more about him after LB. Your dislike and straight out hate for him is undeserved and I really don't see where you coming from on this whole thing.

 

The point which you consistently fail to grasp is that Mat doesn't really choose to do any of the things you credit him with. He runs this way, he weasels that way, and finally despite all of that the Wheel dumps him in the middle of a cesspool. Then, and only then he behaves like an adult just long enough to handle that situation and then he immediately goes back to trying to hide from all responsibility.

 

His behavior is totally tiresome. He needs to get over himself. In Knife of Dreams it seemed like he'd finally grown up, but he's reverted since.

 

I do agree with you about Perrin and Egwene.

[Beer Rot]

-snipped a bunch of stuff -

Mat is by far a freaking genius in the whole serious and there is a good reason why RJ thought about writing more about him after LB. Your dislike and straight out hate for him is undeserved and I really don't see where you coming from on this whole thing.

 

The point which you consistently fail to grasp is that Mat doesn't really choose to do any of the things you credit him with. He runs this way, he weasels that way, and finally despite all of that the Wheel dumps him in the middle of a cesspool. Then, and only then he behaves like an adult just long enough to handle that situation and then he immediately goes back to trying to hide from all responsibility.

 

His behavior is totally tiresome. He needs to get over himself. In Knife of Dreams it seemed like he'd finally grown up, but he's reverted since.

 

I do agree with you about Perrin and Egwene.

 

Why are you trying to force Mat into some semblance of responsibility?

 

He doesn't want it, the Wheel forces it on him and he accepts it at the time just long enough to do what needs to be done, then he goes back to doing what HE wants to do.

 

Jealous?

[NetSlider]

-snipped a bunch of stuff -

Mat is by far a freaking genius in the whole serious and there is a good reason why RJ thought about writing more about him after LB. Your dislike and straight out hate for him is undeserved and I really don't see where you coming from on this whole thing.

 

The point which you consistently fail to grasp is that Mat doesn't really choose to do any of the things you credit him with. He runs this way, he weasels that way, and finally despite all of that the Wheel dumps him in the middle of a cesspool. Then, and only then he behaves like an adult just long enough to handle that situation and then he immediately goes back to trying to hide from all responsibility.

 

His behavior is totally tiresome. He needs to get over himself. In Knife of Dreams it seemed like he'd finally grown up, but he's reverted since.

 

I do agree with you about Perrin and Egwene.

 

 

But that's the definition of being adult and responsible - do what needs to be done instead of you what you wanna do. When time comes to step up or step aside Mat consistently delivered. He did what had to be do (in many ways because of others' mass and their thinking in "responsible" way) and went on his marry way. He's not a lap dog to sit and wait for...what? I don't even know what you trying to say he supposed to do. Wait until Moir or Egghead or someone else says - Mat we need you. No, he lives his life and when he's needed he does what's required. He takes care of his duties and responsibilities as they arise and as far as planning ahead, he does. Just look at Golam (sp) or ToG or Dragons or AS rescue in WH. Sure, he has to improvise here and than (like in Salidar) but overall he is a man with the plan in many instances. And his organizational skills - people actually FOLLOW HIM. They are not tricked or forced or intimidated. Sure pattern has hand in it but not like with Rand and little wolf. With Mat his actions draw people to LOVE HIM.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

Which he could have broken. He chose not to find out what was inside, what was important to Verin.

 

But Mat doesnt break vows, thats part of the whole point of his character.

And he must stand by the consequences of that. He was given information. He neither looked at it, nor did he act on it. If he read the letter, he could then decide on the best course of action. He didn't read the letter, so his choice was one conciously done without full knowledge. He knew he didn't have all the facts.

 

Look at it like this right; Mats line of thinking could easily have been "if its so important, why put me on a time limit?" or "why couldnt she do it herself."

But it wasn't. It was "don't like AS".

Reading through it, I am not even sure why Mat should think it was important at all. She never stressed that it was important, and said he could just sit around not open it if he wanted, as long as he waited a certain number of days for her to take care of it.

She said it needed to be done. That sounds important. If she didn't offer him a get out, he wouldn't have gone through the Gateway. If the wait wa too long, he still wouldn't go. If he didn't have to do what it said, he might have decided not to. She's in a no win situation, really. However she slices it, she's having to put her faith in Mat, in him reading the letter, in him acting on it. So she put her faith in Mat and he let her down.

 

When has Mat ever saved Verin's life? Verin has saved Mat'

 

Well we're talking Aes Sedai in general.

Are we indeed?

Verin is still Aes Sedai, and Mat didnt want to get caught up in her schemes.

Despite the fact she has done nothing but help him.

He himself may not have saved Verins life, however he doesnt owe anything to her, or any Aes Sedai for that matter.

"Hey, person who saved my life, I don't owe you anything. I've never done anything for you, so we're quits." Mat owed her.

 

Mat does not share any blame at all. If Verin simply said, "you don't have to do what it says if you don't want to" then he would share some blame.

He had the letter, he didn't open it. It was something that had to be done, and he didn't do it. How is that not his fault?

 

It was under his discretion not to open the letter and Verin did nothing to make sure he opens it.

Verin could do nothing to make sure he opened it.

 

Now, you have other things to do and simply put, why should you commit to anything without even knowing what it is by simply opening a freaking letter. Instead you can wait 30 days and go on your marry way. After all, the person said you can do that so no harm done, right?

Except the person said it needed to be done. Sure, he didn't have to do it, but she still told him it was important and he decided not to do it.

 

 

Verin ate babies to understand the black ajah, but that doesn't change the fact that Verin ate them babies in the first place. The end justifies the means?

Frequently.

 

No, Verin is no Hero. Verin didn’t take one for the team. Verin was a black sister who in the hour of her death betrayed the rest of the black ajah.

After having spent decades learning everything she could about them. She blew the organisation apart in one fell swoop. And then committed suicide in order to get that information out. And that doesn't qualify you for hero status? What does?

 

 

did galad get a letter from verin?

Yes.

 

 

Capable as she was, Verin managed to play most of her cards right and have most of her info acted upon, but she concoted her scheme for Mat based on what she learned about him in TGH/TDR - i.e. the guy who went for a stroll through Shadar Logoth and chose to grab some loot there ;).

That's a good point - it probably would have been in character for that Mat to open the letter out of curiosity.

 

Remember the story Bashire told Rand about his uncle giving burial to 22 oaks or such, well great minds don't always think in a straight forward lines, but they are still great.

Yes, and a mind as strange as mine must surely be one of the all time greats.

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

But that's the definition of being adult and responsible - do what needs to be done instead of you what you wanna do. When time comes to step up or step aside Mat consistently delivered. He did what had to be do (in many ways because of others' mass and their thinking in "responsible" way) and went on his marry way. He's not a lap dog to sit and wait for...what? I don't even know what you trying to say he supposed to do. Wait until Moir or Egghead or someone else says - Mat we need you. No, he lives his life and when he's needed he does what's required. He takes care of his duties and responsibilities as they arise and as far as planning ahead, he does. Just look at Golam (sp) or ToG or Dragons or AS rescue in WH. Sure, he has to improvise here and than (like in Salidar) but overall he is a man with the plan in many instances. And his organizational skills - people actually FOLLOW HIM. They are not tricked or forced or intimidated. Sure pattern has hand in it but not like with Rand and little wolf. With Mat his actions draw people to LOVE HIM.

 

No, Mat does only what he wants to do until the Wheel jerks him up short and forces him to do what's needed. That's not adult nor responsible.

 

ToM. The Seven Striped Lass -

"You promised not to open it?" she said

 

"Well not exactly. I promised that if I opened it, I'd do exactly what it said inside."

 

"Gave an oath did you?"

 

He nodded.

 

...

 

"I could open it for you," she said, leaning back against the other side of the bar, and looking over the letter. ... "I could open it," she continued to Mat, "and could tell you what's inside."

 

Bloody ashes! If she did that, he would have to do what it said, Whatever it bloody said! All he had to do was wait a few weeks, and he would be free. He could wait that long. Really, he could.

 

Everybody, quite rightly, despises Aes Sedai for how they twist meanings and intentions, how they weasel around their oaths. No Aes Sedai could weasel around what the intention of that oath he freely swore is than Mat is doing here.

 

He's even willing to delay the rescue of Moiraine for weeks just so he can weasel out of doing what he knows Verin needed him to do.

 

That's neither adult nor responsible.

 

The Band is the only "people" who follow him. They do so for two reasons:

 

1. He's lucky. He wins. Soldiers would rather win than lose BECAUSE -

2. Winners get the loot. Medieval troops LOVE loot.

 

It's not Mat they love, it's the loot and other perks of being in Mat's army. If the Wheel ever takes away Mat's magic juju, those "followers" will evaporate in a heartbeat.

[NetSlider]

But that's the definition of being adult and responsible - do what needs to be done instead of you what you wanna do. When time comes to step up or step aside Mat consistently delivered. He did what had to be do (in many ways because of others' mass and their thinking in "responsible" way) and went on his marry way. He's not a lap dog to sit and wait for...what? I don't even know what you trying to say he supposed to do. Wait until Moir or Egghead or someone else says - Mat we need you. No, he lives his life and when he's needed he does what's required. He takes care of his duties and responsibilities as they arise and as far as planning ahead, he does. Just look at Golam (sp) or ToG or Dragons or AS rescue in WH. Sure, he has to improvise here and than (like in Salidar) but overall he is a man with the plan in many instances. And his organizational skills - people actually FOLLOW HIM. They are not tricked or forced or intimidated. Sure pattern has hand in it but not like with Rand and little wolf. With Mat his actions draw people to LOVE HIM.

 

No, Mat does only what he wants to do until the Wheel jerks him up short and forces him to do what's needed. That's not adult nor responsible.

 

ToM. The Seven Striped Lass -

"You promised not to open it?" she said

 

"Well not exactly. I promised that if I opened it, I'd do exactly what it said inside."

 

"Gave an oath did you?"

 

He nodded.

 

...

 

"I could open it for you," she said, leaning back against the other side of the bar, and looking over the letter. ... "I could open it," she continued to Mat, "and could tell you what's inside."

 

Bloody ashes! If she did that, he would have to do what it said, Whatever it bloody said! All he had to do was wait a few weeks, and he would be free. He could wait that long. Really, he could.

 

Everybody, quite rightly, despises Aes Sedai for how they twist meanings and intentions, how they weasel around their oaths. No Aes Sedai could weasel around what the intention of that oath he freely swore is than Mat is doing here.

 

He's even willing to delay the rescue of Moiraine for weeks just so he can weasel out of doing what he knows Verin needed him to do.

 

That's neither adult nor responsible.

 

The Band is the only "people" who follow him. They do so for two reasons:

 

1. He's lucky. He wins. Soldiers would rather win than lose BECAUSE -

2. Winners get the loot. Medieval troops LOVE loot.

 

It's not Mat they love, it's the loot and other perks of being in Mat's army. If the Wheel ever takes away Mat's magic juju, those "followers" will evaporate in a heartbeat.

 

 

He delayed b/c he made a PROMISE to do so to Verin. Plus, he needed time for Dragons and we know what happen when he tried to see the queen. How was he suppose to know that the requirement will only take half a day. I guess it was too much for Verin say something like "It will only take a few days of your time at the most and will not put you in the direct danger at the time that I can foresee" BOOM! Problem solved. So Verin comes out as an idiot (and once again she's not). If you ask me, and again for the third time, I think this is just a bad story arc and a poor attempt to put some irony where none was needed.

 

The loot - they never had any loot and he says it more than once that they can forget about that. Sure, they might be hoping for it but so far there is none.

 

In regards to earlier mention that Verin only helped Mat - do you remember his first impression of Verin (without being sick with Dagger) in tGS? He saw her as a street con artist and she knew he knew so they had fun. He actually read her as an open book (her relaying of preconception of people that she's dreamy b/c she's brown that is). What I'm saying, he has an AS come to him that he barely remembers b/c he barely remembers that period of time. She acts all shady, tried to get him to commit to something he has no clue about and being weird all around. So give me a good reason he should swallow that hook. He has more important things to do. As far as he's concern LB is coming, he needs to prepare, get Moir out, and worry about people he cares about. His loyalty is not with WT or AS in any way (and rightly so, they don't deserve it). His loyalty with Rand (though he's not too happy about but he will do what needs doing) and his loved once. So, Mat did the right thing considering all available information to him and I would have done the same.

 

I know I said I won't get into discussion about this anymore, but when people go after Mat personally, well...that's personal.

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

The loot - they never had any loot and he says it more than once that they can forget about that. Sure, they might be hoping for it but so far there is none.

 

Then he's even more irresponsible than I thought.

 

In Knife of Dreams they totally wiped out a force of 10,000 cavalry. That's 10,000 horses, armor and weapons, bedrolls, mess kits, travel rations, canteens, feed bags, and who knows what all else. All things desperately needed for armies headed to the Last Battle. If he didn't secure those things against future need he is both irresponsible and a fool.

[Haran]

No, Verin is no Hero. Verin didn’t take one for the team. Verin was a black sister who in the hour of her death betrayed the rest of the black ajah.

After having spent decades learning everything she could about them. She blew the organisation apart in one fell swoop. And then committed suicide in order to get that information out. And that doesn't qualify you for hero status? What does?

 

 

I'm not saying the suicide wasn't heroic. I am trying to say that Verin has, no matter her intentions, been a member of the black ajah for 70 years. She has been undercover a long time. Ok you may call her a "hero", but it certainly doesnt make her a good person.

 

How unlikely is it that she hasn't been affected just a little bit by all the evil she has seen and probably done over the years? Would Verin be willing to let trollocs invade Cam in order to force Mat into some sort of position? I think so. Verin has shown that she is willing to do anything, anything at all to reach her goal.

 

Also, how likely is it that Verin, the 007 of Aes Sedai, don't realize that Mat will not open that letter? She hasn't survived for 70 years of manipulation, backstabbing and intrigue just to miscalculate how a distrustful 20 year old farmboy will react to a seemingly simple bargain.

[NetSlider]

The loot - they never had any loot and he says it more than once that they can forget about that. Sure, they might be hoping for it but so far there is none.

 

Then he's even more irresponsible than I thought.

 

In Knife of Dreams they totally wiped out a force of 10,000 cavalry. That's 10,000 horses, armor and weapons, bedrolls, mess kits, travel rations, canteens, feed bags, and who knows what all else. All things desperately needed for armies headed to the Last Battle. If he didn't secure those things against future need he is both irresponsible and a fool.

 

 

If you call that loot than I'm completely floored. First, out of 10K horses I'll be surprised if half survived if that. Not a single man lived and most of the damage was down with long-distant weapons. The books don't really say if he took their provisions, but I guess he did - it's not look but appropriation of enemy's supply.

 

Loot would be going into a city or town and taking valuable things - you know, gold and such. I'm not saying provisions are not valuable but it's not really loot and I think most will agree.

 

Now you just cherry picking. Just admit, you don't like Mat and that's all. No reason, you just don't.

 

 

[Eht Slat Meit]

I think that something people may be overlooking is the opening line of the letter: "If you are opening this, then I am dead." A simple and straightforward statement, one that Mat has no reason not to believe is 100% true because he knows her as an Aes Sedai, not Black Ajah. However, despite the fact that she -can- lie, a betrayal of the Shadow will result in her death, which means that it is indeed true. The letter is a betrayal of the Dark Lord, but only if opened and read.

 

Significance?

 

The letter is only as valuable as the time within which it is opened. Verin knows the dark prophecies and because of that she knows that the Last Battle is very close (and so do we, seeing as it's next book), but she doesn't know exactly when. She also knows about the impending attack, but doesn't know how soon it will be. It's pretty clear that Andor will be one of the focal points of the Last Battle (see everyone arriving there and focusing all that ta'veren power). Put all that information together and you have a battle that may happen too soon. If Mat opens the letter prematurely, it will kill her, but he'll also be in a position to shut down that attack, giving Caemlyn time to prepare. If he does not (and he didn't) all three ta'veren gather in Andor and the Pattern is ready for the Last Battle.

 

It's contingent-information, information that is designed to offset a potential problem that is far, far more deadly to the future of Randland... because if Caemlyn falls, the royal line of Andor may fall with it... and we know what the royal line of Andor holds.

[Cyf]

It's contingent-information, information that is designed to offset a potential problem that is far, far more deadly to the future of Randland... because if Caemlyn falls, the royal line of Andor may fall with it... and we know what the royal line of Andor holds.

 

Why do people keep saying this? I assume you're talking about Elaida's foretelling. She made this when she was an Accepted, when Tigraine was Daughter-Heir. Elayen is /not/ going to sweep in and save the day. Rand is the child of Tigraine, he is the focus of Elaida's prophecy. Sheesh.

[Eht Slat Meit]

It's contingent-information, information that is designed to offset a potential problem that is far, far more deadly to the future of Randland... because if Caemlyn falls, the royal line of Andor may fall with it... and we know what the royal line of Andor holds.

 

Why do people keep saying this? I assume you're talking about Elaida's foretelling. She made this when she was an Accepted, when Tigraine was Daughter-Heir. Elayen is /not/ going to sweep in and save the day. Rand is the child of Tigraine, he is the focus of Elaida's prophecy. Sheesh.

 

Who said anything about Elayne? I said "royal line" with an emphasis on line. That includes: Rand (the Dragon and his armies, Elayne (the Sun Throne and her armies), Galad (the Whitecloak armies), Gawyn (the White Tower armies). Moreover, if you want to get kinky with the prophecy, both Perrin (the Pride) and Mat (Seanchan) could be included in that, since they're both now of royal lines and from Andor.

 

You know the prophecy that goes with Elaida's? The Dragon is one with the land and the land one with the Dragon. Without one or the other, there is no victory. Rand can't defeat the shadow by himself, and the the people (the land) can't defeat the shadow without the Dragon.

 

Where are they? Oh yeah, all in Andor as of end of ToM.

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

Where are they? Oh yeah, all in Andor as of end of ToM.

 

Ummmm... Field of Merrilor actually. Not marked on any of the maps I've seen, but Rand mentioned to Egwene that it was just north of Tar Valon. So, that means not in Andor.

[Charlz Guybon]

Mat has an important role to play. The Aes Sedai are insistent that he play it. Mat just wants to be Peter Pan and fly back to Never-Never-Land.

 

 

If by "fly back to Never-Never-Land," you mean "fulfill his promise to Thom to help him go rescue Moiraine, fulfill his obligation to Aludra and all the people whose lives will be saved by having the Dragons made, and do it all while keeping the soldiers under his command relatively safe," then I guess you could say that that's all Mat wants.

 

Opening the letter precludes none of those scenarios. In fact, it enhances all of them.

 

With the Waygate destroyed, there is no invasion, no threat to Aludra's dragons, and no immediate threat to the people of Caemlyn from fire or Trolloc. Opening the letter wouldn't even tke any time away from rescuing Moiraine. He already has contact with Birgitte and Elayne, he simply needs to tell them and make Talmanes and his half of the Band available to do the heavy lifting while he, Thom, and Noal gate to the Tower of Ghenjei.

 

Mat blew it. By being the south half of a northbound horse yet again.

 

Honestly, at this point I'm kind of getting really upset. You keep on saying that it's Mat's fault and making these crazy connections and justifications why. Yet you say I'm the one who rationalizing. R you being serious or are you just massing around? I just really can't see how someone can blame Mat and truly believe it. So, are you for real or are you just pulling our thumbs?

An adult understands the promises should be kept, but an adult also understands that sometimes bad things happen and the more responsible action sometimes requires a promise to be broken.

 

He should have opened the damned letter and if what Verin required would have interfered with Mat's world saving duties then too bad for her. On the other hand it was clearly important, and so should have been checked out to see what it was.

 

The 'he always keeps his word" trait isn't a positive, it's a flaw. Sometimes people, even heroes have to break their word for the greater good.

[smileyman]

 

The 'he always keeps his word" trait isn't a positive, it's a flaw. Sometimes people, even heroes have to break their word for the greater good.

 

 

In fact, it's rather similar to the "He always does what is right" trait exhibited by Galad that's so infuriating (and wrong).

[benny the ball]

Ahoy!

 

Not sure if anyone else spotted this (probably have) but Galad has a letter with a red seal too and i don't think its from his new babe coz of the red seal but thats just my opinion.

 

A Backhanded Request p65

 

"Galad was tucking something into his pocket. A small letter, it appeared, with a red seal. Where had he gotten that? He looked troubled, though his expresstion lightened as he arrived"

 

Like i said it's probably already been mention but what the hell.

 

This makes 4 along with Matts, Rands, Alanna.

 

Any more Red letters been spotted?