Nakomi

[Terez]

We do know that Coreanin wasn't a very good or talented dreamer

Do we? Verin told Egwene that 'from the records' she barely deserved the name 'Dreamer', but in her thoughts, she revealed that Corianin kept the greater part of her knowledge 'by far' to herself, trusting it only to her notes.

 

It's unlikely that Verin would have managed to just read her notes and self-teach herself to the extremely high level of skills required without at least interacting with other TAR-users and Dreamers.

I don't see why you think that, seeing as how Dreaming is mostly done with the mind. Anyone could learn it, especially someone as sharp as Verin.

 

By the way, Nakomi scene inspired Avi to test those ter'angreal.

I don't think so. Aviendha's frustration at the disappointing experience of the first trip through is what inspired her to delve deeper. That, and her newfound Talent.

 

I remembered the quote at the end of The Eye of the World (that's not the Dark One, by the way - he can't speak outside Shayol Ghul at that point, and Rand made the stairs).

Those are both assumptions, and unfounded ones.

[WMTom]

Nakomi's manerisms scream Verin, that much cannot be denied. I think I am going to have to go with the Nakomi is Verin group. Verin often talks about herself as rattling on (or words to that affect). Nakomi does the same. Avi and Verin met a few times and Avi did say there was something about that woman... I was worried about Avi recognizing someone who had not lived Ji-e-toh but Verin did spend some months as a Wise One Apprentice. I guess that was more than enough time for her to pick up on the cultural aspects.

 

It is not a stretch to think the Forsaken would teach her some things such as how to hide her ability to channel, for certain missions required, along with inverting her weaves. The timeline definitely fits into Verin's quite nicely. Too many things point to Verin, IMHO.

 

On a personal note:

 

I think it would be cool for Nakomi to be one of the Jenn Aiel (because I would like to see a Jenn Aiel in the current story). This could bring a whole new demension to the WOT. I like the idea but I agree it is not plausible.

 

*Edited to remove a part that made no sense (ADHD)

[Terez]

Avi and Verin met a few times

Wat?

 

and Avi did say there was something about that woman...

This sort of reminded me of what Urien said about Verin.

[nleseul]

I remembered the quote at the end of The Eye of the World (that's not the Dark One, by the way - he can't speak outside Shayol Ghul at that point, and Rand made the stairs).

Those are both assumptions, and unfounded ones.

 

They're pretty reasonable assumptions, though.

 

If the DO could speak in SUPER CAPITAL LETTERS all over the place, why would it need to use Shaidar Haran to threaten the Forsaken? Could be the fact that Rand was in the Blight, I guess.

 

But the description of the stairs is a really close match to the way that Skimming initially manifests for Rand at the end of TSR (before he realizes that running up stairs is silly when he could just imagine a moving platform), as I recall. That suggests to me pretty strongly that the stairs were a Rand thing.

[WMTom]

Terez, I was making a leap there. Both Avi and Verin were in Carhien (SP?) at the same time. I assume she either met Verin or saw her.

[didymos]

If the DO could speak in SUPER CAPITAL LETTERS all over the place, why would it need to use Shaidar Haran to threaten the Forsaken?

 

Because the DO is trapped and incorporeal, so having a mobile super-Fade to tool around in comes in handy. He can go and personally bitch-slap recalcitrant servants.

[waffle]

Both Avi and Verin were in Carhien (SP?) at the same time.

 

When? Verin didn´t get to cairhien until after Dumais Wells and Aviendha was long gone by then.

[GusE]

I remembered the quote at the end of The Eye of the World (that's not the Dark One, by the way - he can't speak outside Shayol Ghul at that point, and Rand made the stairs).

Those are both assumptions, and unfounded ones.

ToM ch 5 Graendal PoV: "Had that been a communication directly from the Great Lord? As far as she knwe, all Chosen in this Age had to go to him in Shayol Ghul tor recieve their orders. [...] It meant the end was very near"

So speaking to the DO certainly seems to have been limited to Shayol Ghul until recently with the weakening of the bore.

[f3llyn]

Both Avi and Verin were in Carhien (SP?) at the same time.

 

When? Verin didn´t get to cairhien until after Dumais Wells and Aviendha was long gone by then.

That's my thought as well. Verin and Aviendha have never been in the same place at the same time. We have no reason to even suspect that Verin knows Aviendha exists and even if she did how would she know where Aviendha would be at that given moment, to "stumble" across her path.

 

When Verin was in Cairhien, Aviendha was either in Caemlyn still, or she'd already gone to meet Elayne in Salidar.

[Sharaman]

Both Avi and Verin were in Carhien (SP?) at the same time.

 

When? Verin didn´t get to cairhien until after Dumais Wells and Aviendha was long gone by then.

That's my thought as well. Verin and Aviendha have never been in the same place at the same time. We have no reason to even suspect that Verin knows Aviendha exists and even if she did how would she know where Aviendha would be at that given moment, to "stumble" across her path.

 

When Verin was in Cairhien, Aviendha was either in Caemlyn still, or she'd already gone to meet Elayne in Salidar.

They were both in Caemlyn at the same time (when Alanna bonds Rand early in LoC) but they've certainly never met onscreen.

[MikeRiley]

I remembered the quote at the end of The Eye of the World (that's not the Dark One, by the way - he can't speak outside Shayol Ghul at that point, and Rand made the stairs).

Those are both assumptions, and unfounded ones.

ToM ch 5 Graendal PoV: "Had that been a communication directly from the Great Lord? As far as she knwe, all Chosen in this Age had to go to him in Shayol Ghul tor recieve their orders. [...] It meant the end was very near"

So speaking to the DO certainly seems to have been limited to Shayol Ghul until recently with the weakening of the bore.

 

I was just about to go looking for that quote and I couldn't remember what book it was in! Talk about a short memory, I read that just the other day too. This quote basically proves that it was the Creator that spoke with Rand in The Eye of the World and it had to have been Rand that created the stairs because the Creator just got done saying it wouldn't take part.

[didymos]

I remembered the quote at the end of The Eye of the World (that's not the Dark One, by the way - he can't speak outside Shayol Ghul at that point, and Rand made the stairs).

Those are both assumptions, and unfounded ones.

ToM ch 5 Graendal PoV: "Had that been a communication directly from the Great Lord? As far as she knwe, all Chosen in this Age had to go to him in Shayol Ghul tor recieve their orders. [...] It meant the end was very near"

So speaking to the DO certainly seems to have been limited to Shayol Ghul until recently with the weakening of the bore.

 

I was just about to go looking for that quote and I couldn't remember what book it was in! Talk about a short memory, I read that just the other day too. This quote basically proves that it was the Creator that spoke with Rand in The Eye of the World and it had to have been Rand that created the stairs because the Creator just got done saying it wouldn't take part.

 

No, it's not up to the level of proof, because it includes the fatal words "As far as she knew". IOW, Graendal is not certain, so neither should we be.

[WhiskyJack]

Like I've said before. Verin doesn't have any reason to seek Aviendha out like this. Nothing we've ever seen of her shows she even knows Aviendha exists to begin with.

Yes she does have a reason to seek out Aviendha -- she's doing her part to help keep the Aiel focused on helping Rand. She's been around the Aiel and has likely picked up on some of the same rifts beginning to form among the Aiel that Aviendha thought about in T'A'R. As for the second, she'd have to be rather unobservant to have not known who Aviendha was. Verin trained under the same Wise Ones who schemed to get Aviendha close to Rand in the first place, the same Wise Ones who Aviendha reports to. She has also been in the company of others who know of Aviendha's connection to Rand. I don't think it's a huge secret that Aviendha has connections with Rand. She was his tutor, in public, for months. She's also present with the Wise Ones when Rand briefs the clan chiefs.

 

 

 

Aiel focused on helping Rand? They already are! They are preparing for this day for more than 2000 years. What Avi's experience has to do with how Aiel will help Rand? You do realize that whole Avi experience is about Aiel's future, one that comes after LB, future where Rand doesn't exist!

[WhiskyJack]

 

By the way, Nakomi scene inspired Avi to test those ter'angreal.

I don't think so. Aviendha's frustration at the disappointing experience of the first trip through is what inspired her to delve deeper. That, and her newfound Talent.

 

 

 

Her frustration was long time making. If it was not future she was curious about, what she could possibly be hoping for in that ter'angreal? She knew precisely what she was going to see in those glass columns (in a way). We know she saw Aiel's future. But why? Because glass column ter'angreal had only 2 functions and it toggled between one or another? I don't think so. It's not just a coincidence that Avi was worried about future of Aiel and future of Aiel she saw.

[aaron hranek]

What name did Verin use when she was in Far Madden with Cadsuane?

[didymos]

What name did Verin use when she was in Far Madden with Cadsuane?

 

Eadwina.

[aaron hranek]

What name did Verin use when she was in Far Madden with Cadsuane?

 

Eadwina.

 

well that was a shot in the dark

[johnnysd]

I think that it is Mierin. Not Cyndane or Lanfear. Mieren. The scene in the epilogue had Rand/Lews recognize the tortured woman as Mierin, not Lanfear. I think that is important. It is hinted in the rings scene with Rand that Mierin unlike the other Chosen did not really choose to be a Chosen but was forced into it as a result of what happened when she drilled into the dark one's prison. When she died, much like the madness that Nynaeve healed, the black roots of madness were lifted and Mieren is trying to help the light. She helped Egwene in te; as well.

[didymos]

I think that it is Mierin. Not Cyndane or Lanfear. Mieren. The scene in the epilogue had Rand/Lews recognize the tortured woman as Mierin, not Lanfear. I think that is important. It is hinted in the rings scene with Rand that Mierin unlike the other Chosen did not really choose to be a Chosen but was forced into it as a result of what happened when she drilled into the dark one's prison.

 

Cyndane is Lanfear, and Lanfear is Mieren. Three names, one, single person. And no, she was never forced to the Shadow:

 

TOR Questions of the Week, February 2005-July 2005

 

Week 12 Question: Who was Beidomon, who helped Lanfear with the project that lead to the drilling of the Bore? Did he figure in the later events at the end of the Age of Legends?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Beidomon was a male Aes Sedai, and a research genius, who believed that they were onto something great. The drilling of the Bore itself caused great damage, and Beidomon, Lanfear and others involved were blamed for that. Once it became clear what had actually happened, the opprobrium increased, and Beidomon sought obscurity, finally committing suicide when he was unable to achieve it. Everyone knew his name, and what he had done. He had nowhere to hide.

 

As an aside, for those who think that Lanfear was in some way twisted against her will by being involved in drilling the Bore---I have heard the theory advanced---of all those involved in the project, she was the only major figure to go over to the Shadow. She was ripe for the Shadow's plucking long before the Bore was drilled.

 

She was not a good person. Not before the Bore, nor after. It's really that simple.

[WMTom]

I think that it is Mierin. Not Cyndane or Lanfear. Mieren. The scene in the epilogue had Rand/Lews recognize the tortured woman as Mierin, not Lanfear. I think that is important. It is hinted in the rings scene with Rand that Mierin unlike the other Chosen did not really choose to be a Chosen but was forced into it as a result of what happened when she drilled into the dark one's prison. When she died, much like the madness that Nynaeve healed, the black roots of madness were lifted and Mieren is trying to help the light. She helped Egwene in te; as well.

 

Rand recognized Mierin through her eyes into her soul. The person Rand saw was Cyndane it was not until he saw her eyes that he called her Mierin.

[WhiteJoker]

I think that it is Mierin. Not Cyndane or Lanfear. Mieren. The scene in the epilogue had Rand/Lews recognize the tortured woman as Mierin, not Lanfear. I think that is important. It is hinted in the rings scene with Rand that Mierin unlike the other Chosen did not really choose to be a Chosen but was forced into it as a result of what happened when she drilled into the dark one's prison. When she died, much like the madness that Nynaeve healed, the black roots of madness were lifted and Mieren is trying to help the light. She helped Egwene in te; as well.

Note that when he was talking to Moridin he referred to him as Elan, not as Ishamael or Moridin. To Lews/Rand, who lived with all of them and was (for the most part) friends with them, they're "normal" people to him, not the grand figures of nightmare that their Chosen names make them.

[WolfDragonFox]

How do these talks of Cyndane relate to the Nakomi thread?

[Sabio]

yeah liked the encounter, but didn't make much sense to me. I was the same at first thought she was dreaming it. Why would a DF/Forsaken do this instead of just killing her?

[Morsker]

I don't recall if it was here or Theoryland, but someone offered the possibility of Nakomi being a dead Verin, speaking to Aviendha in T'A'R. Ironically this also makes her a ghost, and she could've been Jenn Aeil once too, but that's not really the point.

 

It might not violate the Hero precepts, since Birgitte's quote about it in TSR is "According to the precepts, we may speak to none who know they are in Tel'aran'rhiod." And Aviehdna certainly doesn't think she's in T'A'R.

[Callern]

I don't recall if it was here or Theoryland, but someone offered the possibility of Nakomi being a dead Verin, speaking to Aviendha in T'A'R. Ironically this also makes her a ghost, and she could've been Jenn Aeil once too, but that's not really the point.

 

It might not violate the Hero precepts, since Birgitte's quote about it in TSR is "According to the precepts, we may speak to none who know they are in Tel'aran'rhiod." And Aviehdna certainly doesn't think she's in T'A'R.

 

I can't remember reading about any trained dreamer which did not know whether she was in T'A'R or not. I find it a little fishy that Avi should not recongnize the dream world.