The Black Tower

[wvlr2]

Did anyone else catch the potential reference to Gaidel Cain at the Black Tower?

[waffle]

  On 12/3/2010 at 4:53 PM, wvlr2 said:

Did anyone else catch the potential reference to Gaidel Cain at the Black Tower?

 

you mean Gradys kid? It´s been mentioned that he is too old.

[capuga]

  On 12/3/2010 at 4:53 PM, wvlr2 said:

Did anyone else catch the potential reference to Gaidel Cain at the Black Tower?

 

Are you refering to Grady's kid? If so, I have seen some discussion on this and it appears he is much too old (others have posted that the kid's age was mentioned a few books ago making him at least 5-ish and born well before the last time we see Gaidal Cain in TAR). If not, I must have missed a clue and would love to see the quote.

[DemandredFO]

I think there at least three turned unless Javindra was already a DF. Pevara seems to indicate that there's been a shift in Javindra's attitude and I see this as her being a DF or being turned.

[wvlr2]

  On 12/3/2010 at 6:56 PM, Mark Grayson said:

Are you refering to Grady's kid? If so, I have seen some discussion on this and it appears he is much too old (others have posted that the kid's age was mentioned a few books ago making him at least 5-ish and born well before the last time we see Gaidal Cain in TAR). If not, I must have missed a clue and would love to see the quote.

That is indeed what I was refering to. I thought that he was younger, but I did cover myself by adding the work "possable". I must have missed those comments. Thanks for setting me straight.

 

 

 

 

 

  On 12/3/2010 at 7:13 PM, DemandredFO said:

I think there at least three turned unless Javindra was already a DF. Pevara seems to indicate that there's been a shift in Javindra's attitude and I see this as her being a DF or being turned.

 

My guess is that she was already a DF/BA and so she did not need to be "Turned". She was reluctant, until she found out that the BT was full of like minded (DF) people. Hence she is not described as having the change to her look and personality.

[Demiandre]

Hy Emarin! Nice to see Algarin in the Black Tower^^

 

Hello Androl, hope you'll link with Pevara! Liked the Retashar Dazei (sp?) thing. And he will lead something awesome. Logain's followzers, Two Rivers recruit, and the Aes Sedai to rent the tower in fire. Logain will have his glory later, and come with something that will bring him the asha'man close behind instead of Androl.

 

And Tarna and Mezar, brrrrr! It gives me chills

[Val Mickey]

Isn't Javindhra one of the names in Verin's Black Ajah for Dummies?

[Demiandre]

I think so, with Duhara (the one trying to enter Elayne's vicinity to kidnap her and bring her to Elaida)

[moratcorlm]

  On 12/6/2010 at 7:16 AM, Val Mickey said:

Isn't Javindhra one of the names in Verin's Black Ajah for Dummies?

No. Though it's clear enough through her actions, particularly her stalling and faked contretemps with Taim in TOM, but also smirking about rumors of Dumai's Wells in KOD, that she's Black.

 

Duhara was in Verin's book. And actually, that's the last heard of her chronologically; Elayne's scheming in TOM11 was several days before Verin's meeting with Egwene.

[Val Mickey]

My bad.

[Demiandre]

  Quote

Hy Emarin! Nice to see Algarin in the Black Tower^^

 

Quoting myself, as I don't see any reaction. Who caught that Emarin is in fact Algarin?

[Val Mickey]

A lot of us, Demi. The name 'Emarin' rang a bell, but it was confirmed when he says he saw the Dragon Reborn a few days before coming to the Tower. It was satisfying, wasn't it?

[Demiandre]

Oh sh*t. I was considered a genius for discovering it on a french forum.

 

Well, no need for him to say he met the Dragon, I understood from Androl's description of the man's behavior.

 

Really satisfying indeed

[Xader]

  On 11/2/2010 at 4:01 PM, WhiskyJack said:

  On 11/2/2010 at 3:43 PM, KefkaPalazzo said:

  On 11/2/2010 at 2:47 PM, Sharaman said:

  On 11/2/2010 at 2:32 PM, Luckers said:

Poor Tarna. She was one of my favourite characters. That scene literally made my skin crawl with horror.

Are we sure it's 13x13 and not just some form of unusually crude compulsion?

Can male channelers link with Fades or does it require 13 female channelers to do. If it requires females, the BA is presumably holed up in the BT and that was supposed to be the TAR killing ground for the WT attack. Makes sense actually - entice the AS out of the WT, take them to the BT and then trap them in an unfamiliar place with male channeler backup by using the second Dreamspike.

 

And what's with the Taim acolytes gaining in strength? Is Moridin distributing saidin angreals?

 

The 13x13 trick needs 13 fades, and 13 Dreadlords. All Dreadlords are just DF channelers. Why we took it to mean BA, was it was mentioned in book 2, by Sheriam. At that point there was no BT, no Taim, none of that.

He/she meant if they had to link..Men cannot link..

 

Do we ever hear that the channelers must link?

 

I only remember that it involves 13 dreadlords channeling through 13 fades.

 

I recall no mention of 13 "linked" channelers. Perhaps it requires the use of 13 weaves, each dreadlord through one fade, not a single weave from 13 dreadlords...

[blazetheearth]

  On 12/23/2010 at 1:58 AM, Xader said:

  On 11/2/2010 at 4:01 PM, WhiskyJack said:

  On 11/2/2010 at 3:43 PM, KefkaPalazzo said:

  On 11/2/2010 at 2:47 PM, Sharaman said:

  On 11/2/2010 at 2:32 PM, Luckers said:

Poor Tarna. She was one of my favourite characters. That scene literally made my skin crawl with horror.

Are we sure it's 13x13 and not just some form of unusually crude compulsion?

Can male channelers link with Fades or does it require 13 female channelers to do. If it requires females, the BA is presumably holed up in the BT and that was supposed to be the TAR killing ground for the WT attack. Makes sense actually - entice the AS out of the WT, take them to the BT and then trap them in an unfamiliar place with male channeler backup by using the second Dreamspike.

 

And what's with the Taim acolytes gaining in strength? Is Moridin distributing saidin angreals?

 

The 13x13 trick needs 13 fades, and 13 Dreadlords. All Dreadlords are just DF channelers. Why we took it to mean BA, was it was mentioned in book 2, by Sheriam. At that point there was no BT, no Taim, none of that.

He/she meant if they had to link..Men cannot link..

 

Do we ever hear that the channelers must link?

 

I only remember that it involves 13 dreadlords channeling through 13 fades.

 

I recall no mention of 13 "linked" channelers. Perhaps it requires the use of 13 weaves, each dreadlord through one fade, not a single weave from 13 dreadlords...

 

I agree. I had always envisioned using a Fade the same way they describe using an angreal. When using an angreal, the channeler is not holding the Power in the beginning then they reach through the angreal to get the power, but when linking, the one that is forming the circle starts off holding the Power then embracing through the other person to bring the other person's own OP to the one forming the circle. Since Fades cannot channel, linking with them is impossible, however if there is something about them that allow one to reach through them to grasp the source like you would an angreal, then it makes it much more feasible. I'm not sure where the idea about linking with the myrrdral came in, and I am certain that when Sheriam tells Eggy about it she did not refer to linking. Some people might have assumed there would be linking simply because of the number 13, and the fact the usually when the characters refer to 13 AS, it is referring to forming circle to shield a man, or gentle him.

[Lacanos]

  On 12/23/2010 at 8:43 AM, Ishadar said:

  On 12/23/2010 at 1:58 AM, Xader said:

  On 11/2/2010 at 4:01 PM, WhiskyJack said:

  On 11/2/2010 at 3:43 PM, KefkaPalazzo said:

  On 11/2/2010 at 2:47 PM, Sharaman said:

  On 11/2/2010 at 2:32 PM, Luckers said:

Poor Tarna. She was one of my favourite characters. That scene literally made my skin crawl with horror.

Are we sure it's 13x13 and not just some form of unusually crude compulsion?

Can male channelers link with Fades or does it require 13 female channelers to do. If it requires females, the BA is presumably holed up in the BT and that was supposed to be the TAR killing ground for the WT attack. Makes sense actually - entice the AS out of the WT, take them to the BT and then trap them in an unfamiliar place with male channeler backup by using the second Dreamspike.

 

And what's with the Taim acolytes gaining in strength? Is Moridin distributing saidin angreals?

 

The 13x13 trick needs 13 fades, and 13 Dreadlords. All Dreadlords are just DF channelers. Why we took it to mean BA, was it was mentioned in book 2, by Sheriam. At that point there was no BT, no Taim, none of that.

He/she meant if they had to link..Men cannot link..

 

Do we ever hear that the channelers must link?

 

I only remember that it involves 13 dreadlords channeling through 13 fades.

 

I recall no mention of 13 "linked" channelers. Perhaps it requires the use of 13 weaves, each dreadlord through one fade, not a single weave from 13 dreadlords...

 

I agree. I had always envisioned using a Fade the same way they describe using an angreal. When using an angreal, the channeler is not holding the Power in the beginning then they reach through the angreal to get the power, but when linking, the one that is forming the circle starts off holding the Power then embracing through the other person to bring the other person's own OP to the one forming the circle. Since Fades cannot channel, linking with them is impossible, however if there is something about them that allow one to reach through them to grasp the source like you would an angreal, then it makes it much more feasible. I'm not sure where the idea about linking with the myrrdral came in, and I am certain that when Sheriam tells Eggy about it she did not refer to linking. Some people might have assumed there would be linking simply because of the number 13, and the fact the usually when the characters refer to 13 AS, it is referring to forming circle to shield a man, or gentle him.

I'm pretty certain that, in fact, they aren't linked.

Rewind to Egwene's test for Accepted - those Aes Sedai clearly weren't linked as they were unable to shield her, describing her as too strong. If they'd been linked, it would've been easy.

[blazetheearth]

  On 11/19/2010 at 1:17 AM, smileyman said:

  On 11/18/2010 at 5:54 PM, Mr Ares said:

Actually, I had a different theory on that. I don't have time to check all the facts now (and someone might well disprove this before I am able), but my theory runs thusly: the stronger-than-they-should-be Asha'man are actually fully trained, full strength Dreadlords infiltrated into the ranks. They come in as new recruits, use only a fraction of their strength. They use more as time goes by, giving the appearance of gaining in strength while not actually doing so, but tend to do so much faster than actual new recruits.

 

I think this actually makes the most sense.

 

This is on the same subject and not truly disagreeing, but I just caught something on a reread of the series. One way that those that join Taim's SS could shoot up would be by going through a much more intensive training than the BT offers. I do not think Taim is Moridin. Period. I do think that Taim answers to Moridin directly, and that he has been supplying his SS for Moridin's use. And Graendal tells us where Moridin is using them. When she visit Moridin's Fortress in the Prologue of tGS, Graendal notes that the black uniformed guards prowling the area do not sweat despite the heat, and that the guards were necessary to fight off attacks by the various Shadowspawn in the area, because these Shadowspawn answer to no one but the GL. She does not mention any weapons on these guards, but does note the lack of perspiration. So, Taim sends out a "Recruiting Party" from his SS to go stand guard at Moridin's Fortress for a few weeks, they come back pumped up because they are almost continuously fighting Shadowspawn. The new guys like Kash could have simply been stationed there for their initial training.

 

This line of thinking led me to another realization that 'Towers of Midnight' the title, could be referring to the BT and Moridin's Fortress, because Graendal's description specificly says that when she answers Moridin's summons she leaves the Gateway and enters a room filled with rust colored light, the goes to the window and

 

  Quote

She was on the second level of a deep black tower. The stones drawing in the burning heat of the sky.

 

When added to the A/Eelfinn Towers in their world being black when Mat looks out the window.

 

And we see Moridin using male channelers all through the book. People have put a lot of theorys out there connecting the channelers that we see on the Shadow's side in this book with the Red Veils at the end. But I think it is simply that Taim has been more successful at recruiting than he has almost ever reported or allowed to be known and seen. Instead he had sent some to Moridin for additional training, and now that he feels secure in the location in Andor they have started rotation Taim's SS between the 2 Black Towers.

 

Also IIRC doesn't Pevara note that there almost seemed to be 2 BT's. Yes, I realize that she was thinking on attitudes of the AM, as opposed to physical location. That subtle almost throw-away thought (because we as readers already knew of the BT split) later turning out to be foreshadowing of a small future reveal is something that we have seen through out the series.

[Xader]

  On 12/23/2010 at 11:19 AM, Lacanos said:

  On 12/23/2010 at 8:43 AM, Ishadar said:

  On 12/23/2010 at 1:58 AM, Xader said:

  On 11/2/2010 at 4:01 PM, WhiskyJack said:

  On 11/2/2010 at 3:43 PM, KefkaPalazzo said:

  On 11/2/2010 at 2:47 PM, Sharaman said:

  On 11/2/2010 at 2:32 PM, Luckers said:

Poor Tarna. She was one of my favourite characters. That scene literally made my skin crawl with horror.

Are we sure it's 13x13 and not just some form of unusually crude compulsion?

Can male channelers link with Fades or does it require 13 female channelers to do. If it requires females, the BA is presumably holed up in the BT and that was supposed to be the TAR killing ground for the WT attack. Makes sense actually - entice the AS out of the WT, take them to the BT and then trap them in an unfamiliar place with male channeler backup by using the second Dreamspike.

 

And what's with the Taim acolytes gaining in strength? Is Moridin distributing saidin angreals?

 

The 13x13 trick needs 13 fades, and 13 Dreadlords. All Dreadlords are just DF channelers. Why we took it to mean BA, was it was mentioned in book 2, by Sheriam. At that point there was no BT, no Taim, none of that.

He/she meant if they had to link..Men cannot link..

 

Do we ever hear that the channelers must link?

 

I only remember that it involves 13 dreadlords channeling through 13 fades.

 

I recall no mention of 13 "linked" channelers. Perhaps it requires the use of 13 weaves, each dreadlord through one fade, not a single weave from 13 dreadlords...

 

I agree. I had always envisioned using a Fade the same way they describe using an angreal. When using an angreal, the channeler is not holding the Power in the beginning then they reach through the angreal to get the power, but when linking, the one that is forming the circle starts off holding the Power then embracing through the other person to bring the other person's own OP to the one forming the circle. Since Fades cannot channel, linking with them is impossible, however if there is something about them that allow one to reach through them to grasp the source like you would an angreal, then it makes it much more feasible. I'm not sure where the idea about linking with the myrrdral came in, and I am certain that when Sheriam tells Eggy about it she did not refer to linking. Some people might have assumed there would be linking simply because of the number 13, and the fact the usually when the characters refer to 13 AS, it is referring to forming circle to shield a man, or gentle him.

I'm pretty certain that, in fact, they aren't linked.

Rewind to Egwene's test for Accepted - those Aes Sedai clearly weren't linked as they were unable to shield her, describing her as too strong. If they'd been linked, it would've been easy.

 

I'd forgotten about that; but you're right, it does seem to back the theory that no linking is involved.

 

And Ishadar, very good angreal analogy. That was the line of thinking I was using, but that specific parallel eluded me.

[gary0044187]

  On 12/23/2010 at 5:52 PM, Ishadar said:

  On 11/19/2010 at 1:17 AM, smileyman said:

  On 11/18/2010 at 5:54 PM, Mr Ares said:

Actually, I had a different theory on that. I don't have time to check all the facts now (and someone might well disprove this before I am able), but my theory runs thusly: the stronger-than-they-should-be Asha'man are actually fully trained, full strength Dreadlords infiltrated into the ranks. They come in as new recruits, use only a fraction of their strength. They use more as time goes by, giving the appearance of gaining in strength while not actually doing so, but tend to do so much faster than actual new recruits.

 

I think this actually makes the most sense.

 

This is on the same subject and not truly disagreeing, but I just caught something on a reread of the series. One way that those that join Taim's SS could shoot up would be by going through a much more intensive training than the BT offers. I do not think Taim is Moridin. Period. I do think that Taim answers to Moridin directly, and that he has been supplying his SS for Moridin's use. And Graendal tells us where Moridin is using them. When she visit Moridin's Fortress in the Prologue of tGS, Graendal notes that the black uniformed guards prowling the area do not sweat despite the heat, and that the guards were necessary to fight off attacks by the various Shadowspawn in the area, because these Shadowspawn answer to no one but the GL. She does not mention any weapons on these guards, but does note the lack of perspiration. So, Taim sends out a "Recruiting Party" from his SS to go stand guard at Moridin's Fortress for a few weeks, they come back pumped up because they are almost continuously fighting Shadowspawn. The new guys like Kash could have simply been stationed there for their initial training.

 

This line of thinking led me to another realization that 'Towers of Midnight' the title, could be referring to the BT and Moridin's Fortress, because Graendal's description specificly says that when she answers Moridin's summons she leaves the Gateway and enters a room filled with rust colored light, the goes to the window and

 

  Quote

She was on the second level of a deep black tower. The stones drawing in the burning heat of the sky.

 

When added to the A/Eelfinn Towers in their world being black when Mat looks out the window.

 

And we see Moridin using male channelers all through the book. People have put a lot of theorys out there connecting the channelers that we see on the Shadow's side in this book with the Red Veils at the end. But I think it is simply that Taim has been more successful at recruiting than he has almost ever reported or allowed to be known and seen. Instead he had sent some to Moridin for additional training, and now that he feels secure in the location in Andor they have started rotation Taim's SS between the 2 Black Towers.

 

Also IIRC doesn't Pevara note that there almost seemed to be 2 BT's. Yes, I realize that she was thinking on attitudes of the AM, as opposed to physical location. That subtle almost throw-away thought (because we as readers already knew of the BT split) later turning out to be foreshadowing of a small future reveal is something that we have seen through out the series.

this is one of the best explanations I have seen and doesn't require unknown entities to be plausible. I have thought the same since the squad of ashaman attacked rand.

[mossman87]

I was re-reading ACoS today, it was the first chapter that was made for just minutes after Dumai's Wells ended, and Perrin's POV was interesting, knowing RJ:

 

  Quote

Whatever the case, he decided reluctantly, he had to leave the Asha'man to Rand. they spoke only to each other and the prisoners, and Perrin doubted they would listen to anyone but Rand. The question was, what would Rand say? And what could Perrin do if he said the wrong thing? Putting the problem aside, he scratched his beard with one finger.

 

 

I know it means nothing, but knowing RJ, and how the Asha'man ARE Rand's problem, AND Perrin has to help Rand again, it's interesting.

[SvetSedi]

Does anyone have a semi-accurate count as to how many Ash'amen were recruited by the BT and how many went with Logain/Rand/Perrin and how many were Taim's cronies (The last actual count that I remember was something like 30 I thought) I know that the last book says that many were going to him but it would be nice to get an actual count.

[Ananta]

It really troubles me that Rand has left Black Tower unattended to for this long. It should be his priority.

 

I mean damn, those dudes are freaking killing machines, probably more efficient at destroying Trollocs/Forsaken/Black Ajah/Darkfriends than ALL the other armies combined. There's what, thousand channeling males at BT?

 

One would think Rand would check on that place first. If they turn against him, his armies don't really have anything to counter them with. Aes Sedai are weaker than asha'man, and they would stand no chance in duel against them. Asha'man are trained to kill and destroy, that's something Aes Sedai mostly aren't.

 

 

So it really makes no sense to me that Rand wouldn't make that place his priority. His armies are pretty much Asha'man dependant. They travel and win because of them, even with only few of them. But still he leaves hundreds of them just sit around without bothering to check on them. Oh yeah, he sent one dude in disguise. GG. Like that's gonna help.

[Wheel of Thyme]

Bluedust, I think you are correct. Min says that Perrin has to be there for Rand twice, or that sisters using the Power will harm him (Rand). Rand has stated that he wishes to investigate whats happening with the Black Tower. Perrin has noted the oddity that Grady can not travel to the Black Tower, and intends to investigate it; Perrin probably is thinking it is another Dreamspike. I think Rand and Perrins investigation of the Black Tower will happen at the same time, and Perrin will save Rand from something terrible.

[blazetheearth]

  On 12/30/2010 at 3:36 AM, Wheel of Thyme said:

Bluedust, I think you are correct. Min says that Perrin has to be there for Rand twice, or that sisters using the Power will harm him (Rand). Rand has stated that he wishes to investigate whats happening with the Black Tower. Perrin has noted the oddity that Grady can not travel to the Black Tower, and intends to investigate it; Perrin probably is thinking it is another Dreamspike. I think Rand and Perrins investigation of the Black Tower will happen at the same time, and Perrin will save Rand from something terrible.

 

Possibly being 13x13'ed.

[Kvothe_the_bloodless]

  On 12/23/2010 at 8:57 PM, Xader said:

  On 12/23/2010 at 11:19 AM, Lacanos said:

  On 12/23/2010 at 8:43 AM, Ishadar said:

  On 12/23/2010 at 1:58 AM, Xader said:

  On 11/2/2010 at 4:01 PM, WhiskyJack said:

  On 11/2/2010 at 3:43 PM, KefkaPalazzo said:

  On 11/2/2010 at 2:47 PM, Sharaman said:

  On 11/2/2010 at 2:32 PM, Luckers said:

Poor Tarna. She was one of my favourite characters. That scene literally made my skin crawl with horror.

Are we sure it's 13x13 and not just some form of unusually crude compulsion?

Can male channelers link with Fades or does it require 13 female channelers to do. If it requires females, the BA is presumably holed up in the BT and that was supposed to be the TAR killing ground for the WT attack. Makes sense actually - entice the AS out of the WT, take them to the BT and then trap them in an unfamiliar place with male channeler backup by using the second Dreamspike.

 

And what's with the Taim acolytes gaining in strength? Is Moridin distributing saidin angreals?

 

The 13x13 trick needs 13 fades, and 13 Dreadlords. All Dreadlords are just DF channelers. Why we took it to mean BA, was it was mentioned in book 2, by Sheriam. At that point there was no BT, no Taim, none of that.

He/she meant if they had to link..Men cannot link..

 

Do we ever hear that the channelers must link?

 

I only remember that it involves 13 dreadlords channeling through 13 fades.

 

I recall no mention of 13 "linked" channelers. Perhaps it requires the use of 13 weaves, each dreadlord through one fade, not a single weave from 13 dreadlords...

 

I agree. I had always envisioned using a Fade the same way they describe using an angreal. When using an angreal, the channeler is not holding the Power in the beginning then they reach through the angreal to get the power, but when linking, the one that is forming the circle starts off holding the Power then embracing through the other person to bring the other person's own OP to the one forming the circle. Since Fades cannot channel, linking with them is impossible, however if there is something about them that allow one to reach through them to grasp the source like you would an angreal, then it makes it much more feasible. I'm not sure where the idea about linking with the myrrdral came in, and I am certain that when Sheriam tells Eggy about it she did not refer to linking. Some people might have assumed there would be linking simply because of the number 13, and the fact the usually when the characters refer to 13 AS, it is referring to forming circle to shield a man, or gentle him.

I'm pretty certain that, in fact, they aren't linked.

Rewind to Egwene's test for Accepted - those Aes Sedai clearly weren't linked as they were unable to shield her, describing her as too strong. If they'd been linked, it would've been easy.

 

I'd forgotten about that; but you're right, it does seem to back the theory that no linking is involved.

 

And Ishadar, very good angreal analogy. That was the line of thinking I was using, but that specific parallel eluded me.

 

Egwenes accepted test isn't evidence of anything because the test at least partially takes knowledge from the user to form the experience. For example, that is why she doesn't notice that her keeper was stilled.