Discuss Aviendha's Arc

[Random Man]

(Loooooooooong time lurker here - but I loved TOM so much I caved in and joined up - Hi, everyone!)

 

This scene bothered me for a while after my reading, the horrible fate of the Aiel and seeing how the world can continue down a dark path even after the last battle is incredibly disheartening. I do believe that this is a very possible future, but not one set in stone. As someone has probably already said, just knowing the future is enough to change it a little.

 

Question - Are we sure that other Wise Ones have not gone back through the columns after seeing the past, and seen the future as Avi did here? This was the first thing that occurred to me, as it could have been an extra test. Maybe not all WOs have done this - but some have? Thoughts? (Apologies is this has already been addressed.)

 

I agree the future is all to possible. What good is Rand saving the world from the DO if he cant save the world from itself once he is gone.

It looks like his plan to force certain demands on the nations might be what leads to this future. He forces them to peace, the Seanchan are given time to consolidate, the Aiel go to war against them, eventually draw the other nations into the war, and the Seanchan take them one by one, leading to the future death of the Aiel as a people.

 

Best I can see, if Avi does nothing, her children will bring about the future she sees. She could stop it by:

1) not getting pregnant in the first place.

2) killing herself or her unborn children.

3) figuring out what exactly she needs to convince Rand to change in his plan for the Dragon Peace.

4) managing to survive the Last Battle -- and making sure Rand and other key players survive the Last Battle -- so all these children aren't left to their own devices. There seems to be a lack of pre-TG wisdom in her visions of a world where the DO is no longer a threat.

5) convincing the Aiel that the Shaido Wise Ones deserve to remain leashed and abandoning their reasons for revenge.

 

Interesting thought if other Wise Ones had gone through the columns a second time as Avi did. I don't find it likely, though, seeing as how strict they are on custom. Besides, any Wise Ones who passed through the columns before Rand's revelation of the Aiel past would likely not be in any shape to do more than return.

[f3llyn]

It looks like his plan to force certain demands on the nations might be what leads to this future. He forces them to peace, the Seanchan are given time to consolidate, the Aiel go to war against them, eventually draw the other nations into the war, and the Seanchan take them one by one, leading to the future death of the Aiel as a people.

 

Best I can see, if Avi does nothing, her children will bring about the future she sees. She could stop it by:

1) not getting pregnant in the first place.

2) killing herself or her unborn children.

3) figuring out what exactly she needs to convince Rand to change in his plan for the Dragon Peace.

4) managing to survive the Last Battle -- and making sure Rand and other key players survive the Last Battle -- so all these children aren't left to their own devices. There seems to be a lack of pre-TG wisdom in her visions of a world where the DO is no longer a threat.

5) convincing the Aiel that the Shaido Wise Ones deserve to remain leashed and abandoning their reasons for revenge.

 

Interesting thought if other Wise Ones had gone through the columns a second time as Avi did. I don't find it likely, though, seeing as how strict they are on custom. Besides, any Wise Ones who passed through the columns before Rand's revelation of the Aiel past would likely not be in any shape to do more than return.

Well Min's viewing that Aviendha will get pregnant by Rand all but ensures that 1 and 2 won't happen.

 

They don't need to go through the columns a second time though. One of the dreamers could have easily had a dream that told them what had to be done. Or for that matter it could have been a foretelling for all that we know. It's not implausible that a Wise One could have that ability.

[nolirion]

(Loooooooooong time lurker here - but I loved TOM so much I caved in and joined up - Hi, everyone!)

 

This scene bothered me for a while after my reading, the horrible fate of the Aiel and seeing how the world can continue down a dark path even after the last battle is incredibly disheartening. I do believe that this is a very possible future, but not one set in stone. As someone has probably already said, just knowing the future is enough to change it a little.

 

Question - Are we sure that other Wise Ones have not gone back through the columns after seeing the past, and seen the future as Avi did here? This was the first thing that occurred to me, as it could have been an extra test. Maybe not all WOs have done this - but some have? Thoughts? (Apologies is this has already been addressed.)

 

I agree the future is all to possible. What good is Rand saving the world from the DO if he cant save the world from itself once he is gone.

It looks like his plan to force certain demands on the nations might be what leads to this future. He forces them to peace, the Seanchan are given time to consolidate, the Aiel go to war against them, eventually draw the other nations into the war, and the Seanchan take them one by one, leading to the future death of the Aiel as a people.

 

Best I can see, if Avi does nothing, her children will bring about the future she sees. She could stop it by:

1) not getting pregnant in the first place.

2) killing herself or her unborn children.

3) figuring out what exactly she needs to convince Rand to change in his plan for the Dragon Peace.

4) managing to survive the Last Battle -- and making sure Rand and other key players survive the Last Battle -- so all these children aren't left to their own devices. There seems to be a lack of pre-TG wisdom in her visions of a world where the DO is no longer a threat.

5) convincing the Aiel that the Shaido Wise Ones deserve to remain leashed and abandoning their reasons for revenge.

 

Interesting thought if other Wise Ones had gone through the columns a second time as Avi did. I don't find it likely, though, seeing as how strict they are on custom. Besides, any Wise Ones who passed through the columns before Rand's revelation of the Aiel past would likely not be in any shape to do more than return.

You forgot that The aiel only start a counter strike , the seanchan are still going to start a war of conquest

[wvlr2]

You forgot that The aiel only start a counter strike , the seanchan are still going to start a war of conquest

Correct. Tuon makes this clear in her POVs.

[Random Man]

(Loooooooooong time lurker here - but I loved TOM so much I caved in and joined up - Hi, everyone!)

 

This scene bothered me for a while after my reading, the horrible fate of the Aiel and seeing how the world can continue down a dark path even after the last battle is incredibly disheartening. I do believe that this is a very possible future, but not one set in stone. As someone has probably already said, just knowing the future is enough to change it a little.

 

Question - Are we sure that other Wise Ones have not gone back through the columns after seeing the past, and seen the future as Avi did here? This was the first thing that occurred to me, as it could have been an extra test. Maybe not all WOs have done this - but some have? Thoughts? (Apologies is this has already been addressed.)

 

I agree the future is all to possible. What good is Rand saving the world from the DO if he cant save the world from itself once he is gone.

It looks like his plan to force certain demands on the nations might be what leads to this future. He forces them to peace, the Seanchan are given time to consolidate, the Aiel go to war against them, eventually draw the other nations into the war, and the Seanchan take them one by one, leading to the future death of the Aiel as a people.

 

Best I can see, if Avi does nothing, her children will bring about the future she sees. She could stop it by:

1) not getting pregnant in the first place.

2) killing herself or her unborn children.

3) figuring out what exactly she needs to convince Rand to change in his plan for the Dragon Peace.

4) managing to survive the Last Battle -- and making sure Rand and other key players survive the Last Battle -- so all these children aren't left to their own devices. There seems to be a lack of pre-TG wisdom in her visions of a world where the DO is no longer a threat.

5) convincing the Aiel that the Shaido Wise Ones deserve to remain leashed and abandoning their reasons for revenge.

 

Interesting thought if other Wise Ones had gone through the columns a second time as Avi did. I don't find it likely, though, seeing as how strict they are on custom. Besides, any Wise Ones who passed through the columns before Rand's revelation of the Aiel past would likely not be in any shape to do more than return.

You forgot that The aiel only start a counter strike , the seanchan are still going to start a war of conquest

No, you read that wrong. Up to the point where the Dragon's Children decide to go to war against the Seanchan, there were only skirmishes between Aiel and Seanchan, such as where the Aiel engaged them for coming too close to their camp. The Aiel make the move toward open war:

 

Ch. 49 "Court of the Sun" pp. 733-734

 

A war with the Seanchan...the prospect invigorated her. But it would also mean much death.

"What say the Dragon's children?" Ronam asked, looking at the four of them.

It still seemed strange that these elders looked to her. She checked on saidar, comfortable in the back of her mind, and drew strength from it. What would she do without it?

"I say that we must reclaim our own who are held by the Seanchan," said Marinna. She was training to become a Wise One. (emphasis mine)

Alarch seemed uncertain, and he glanced at Janduin. Alarch often deferred to his brother.

"The Aiel must have a purpose," Janduin said, nodding. "We are useless as we are, and we made no promise not to attack. It is a testament to our patience and respect for my father that we have waited this long." (emphasis mine)

Eyes turned to Padra. "They are our enemies," she said.

One by one, the men in the room nodded. It seemed such a simple event to end years of waiting.

"Go to your clans." Ronam stood up. "Prepare them."

Patra remained seated as the others said their farewells, some somber, others excited. Seventeen years was too long for the Aiel to be without battle.

A generation later, Oncala brings Andor into the war, the other nations follow, and that gives the Seanchan a great excuse to finish their conquest. Would it have happened anyway? No telling. But in Avi's viewing of the future, it's her children that instigate it.

[dshirey09]

I don't think that's what's going to happen. Because, there are two fairly easy things to do to fix it. Either A. get Rand to include the Aiel in his Peace of the Dragon

Yeah, that sounds easy enough.

or B. get EVERYONE to attack the Seanchan the moment the last battle ends. The Aiel lost because they fought the Seanchan alone, then pulled everyone else in when it was too late. Don't do that, and things should be okay. Also, don't let Amys, Rand, Tuon, Elayne, Nyneave, and Egwene die so young, that might help.

In the visions Rand knelt to the Empress, which would probably mean that the Seanchan lent aid to the battles at best, or at worst they just agreed to not attack everyone else. This would 'fulfill' their altered prophecies that Ishamael likely planted over there, ultimately playing into the shadow's hands. It will not bind the Nine Moons to Serve him. If he kneels, it could very well mean that the DO wins, with prophecy and viewings left unfulfilled.

 

Since there were so few generations shown in Avi's viewings, and the last one obviously not a mother, it seems that the line of the Dragon amongst the Aiel dies out completely. Could this be an indication that the People of the Dragon are forever destroyed? If so, how would Aiel come to be in other Ages? Is the line of the previous Dragon essential to the next rebirth?

 

Also, about not letting people die so young, we have no idea exactly what's going to happen at all, other than Brandon said the end is fantastic. Preventing people's deaths might be either impossible or worse than if they actually died.

 

(idle thoughts that keep floating up)

I shudder to think of how a leashed Wise One with their long lifespan would view the ultimate fate of their people. Some inner part of them that still remembers before they crossed the Spine of the World... damn those scenes.

 

I thought about Rand's bloodline needing to survive for a next Dragon to be reborn... But I'm almost 100% sure that Lews Therin's bloodline was completely wiped out (unless he had some bastard child at some point). In the Prologue of tEotW, LTT is walking around his palace looking at how everyone is dead (I don't have the exact quote, but it is made clear that every single person in the palace was "found" by his lightning).

 

Point is, I don't think the "Dragon" line is genetic, else it would be much to easy for the Shadow to just wipe out weak links. I think the presence of the "pattern" reweaving people in is the reason why genetics are not even thought of. People are reborn as other individuals, though possibly not genetically identical. No idea if this makes sense, haha.

[James71]

Best I can see, if Avi does nothing, her children will bring about the future she sees. She could stop it by:

1) not getting pregnant in the first place.

2) killing herself or her unborn children.

3) figuring out what exactly she needs to convince Rand to change in his plan for the Dragon Peace.

4) managing to survive the Last Battle -- and making sure Rand and other key players survive the Last Battle -- so all these children aren't left to their own devices. There seems to be a lack of pre-TG wisdom in her visions of a world where the DO is no longer a threat.

5) convincing the Aiel that the Shaido Wise Ones deserve to remain leashed and abandoning their reasons for revenge.

 

I think she could stop it easily by just giving her children different names than she viewed in the future. :-)

The future is therefore already different.

 

Sharing her future viewing with as many people as possible is also the best way to make sure it doesn't happen. If everyone is warned about it, then they know what decisions to avoid. I believe one of the current clan chiefs survived the last battle and was at the meeting, but he was much older. So that clan chief definitely needs to be brought up to date as to what NOT to do when the time comes.

[f3llyn]

Just came up with this idea while reading through the Elayne thread. What if Caemlyn is burnt to the ground during the trolloc attack? That would change everything.

[James71]

Min Viewing: Aviendha would have Rand's babies, too. Four of them at once! Something was odd about that, though. The babies would be healthy, but still something odd.

 

I have been reading the descriptions of Avi's children. Then I recently saw Min's viewing of Avi's children.

 

Then it occurred to me that perhaps Min also gets pregnant at the same time as Avi. Let's say that Min dies in some manner, what would happen to her children? Wouldn't it be probable that either Elayne or Avi would raise Min's children?

 

I think the "odd" thing from Min's viewing is that the children are from different mothers. The physical descriptions of the four children certainly indicate that they look very different from each other. Some looking Aiel, others looking like wetlanders.

 

My guess is that Avi has two children and Min has two children. They are all born at the same time. Min dies around the same time and Avi decides to raise all four children as her own because she is doing the sister-wife thing with Min. The Aiel raise all four children together after Avi dies.

 

This also sort of makes sense. All three of them (Elayne, Min and Avi) would have twins.

Each set of twins would be a boy and a girl.

From the standpoint of balance, it doesn't makes sense for Avi to have 4, Elayne to have 2 and Min to have 0.

I think it is far more likely to be 2, 2 and 2 with each being a boy/girl set of twins.

 

If I recall, Min does not have viewings about herself. Perhaps that is also what made the viewing of Avi's "four" children seem "odd".

[Kidicaris]

Min Viewing: Aviendha would have Rand's babies, too. Four of them at once! Something was odd about that, though. The babies would be healthy, but still something odd.

 

I have been reading the descriptions of Avi's children. Then I recently saw Min's viewing of Avi's children.

 

Then it occurred to me that perhaps Min also gets pregnant at the same time as Avi. Let's say that Min dies in some manner, what would happen to her children? Wouldn't it be probable that either Elayne or Avi would raise Min's children?

 

I think the "odd" thing from Min's viewing is that the children are from different mothers. The physical descriptions of the four children certainly indicate that they look very different from each other. Some looking Aiel, others looking like wetlanders.

 

My guess is that Avi has two children and Min has two children. They are all born at the same time. Min dies around the same time and Avi decides to raise all four children as her own because she is doing the sister-wife thing with Min. The Aiel raise all four children together after Avi dies.

 

This also sort of makes sense. All three of them (Elayne, Min and Avi) would have twins.

Each set of twins would be a boy and a girl.

From the standpoint of balance, it doesn't makes sense for Avi to have 4, Elayne to have 2 and Min to have 0.

I think it is far more likely to be 2, 2 and 2 with each being a boy/girl set of twins.

 

If I recall, Min does not have viewings about herself. Perhaps that is also what made the viewing of Avi's "four" children seem "odd".

 

 

I thought this too, but most the people on the forum believe the strangeness is the relationship the children have with the One Power.

Personally, I think the fact that the children are so closely tied to the One Power is miraculous and unique, but the "strangeness" Min sensed didn't have anything to do with what seemed to me--frankly, trivial. Aviendha raising Min's own children (because Min has died so early in her life) is far more meaningful than the fact that they are superb channelers (which didn't save them, since the bloodline was being killed off by the Seanchan like the rest of the Aiel).

 

Dune, Star Wars and now WoT. If only we were given the chance to read the continuing saga where the children of this Savior fixed daddy's mistakes. Robert Jordan! Can you hear me?!!! WHYYYYYYYY why why whyyyyyyyy?

[MyKillK]

So are there any theories as to who or what the strange woman who talked to Aviendha was?

 

My general interpretation of the Rhuidean section is that Aviendha is going to convince the Aiel to return to the 3-fold land. The visions she saw were what would happen if they stayed in the wetlands.

[moratcorlm]

So are there any theories as to who or what the strange woman who talked to Aviendha was?

Try this thread.

[dwn]

My take on Min's viewing is that the strangeness means that Aviendha doesn't have any children, yet 'remembers' having four of them from her trip though the future.

 

-- dwn

[MyKillK]

My take on Min's viewing is that the strangeness means that Aviendha doesn't have any children, yet 'remembers' having four of them from her trip though the future.

 

-- dwn

 

Interesting. That indeed would fix the problem of Aviendha's bloodline initiating the war with the Seanchan and then manipulating the nations into the battle.

 

But Min is never wrong in her interpretation of the viewings?

[dwn]

My take on Min's viewing is that the strangeness means that Aviendha doesn't have any children, yet 'remembers' having four of them from her trip though the future.

 

-- dwn

 

Interesting. That indeed would fix the problem of Aviendha's bloodline initiating the war with the Seanchan and then manipulating the nations into the battle.

 

But Min is never wrong in her interpretation of the viewings?

 

My theory, though bordering on the loony, does fit within Min's interpretation of that vision.

 

Aviendha would have Rand's babies, too. Four of them at once! There was something strange about that, though. The babies would be healthy, but still something odd.

 

-- WH, A Lily in Winter, 295

 

The phrasing could imply something strange about the children, the circumstances of their birth, or Min's interpretation of the viewing.

 

-- dwn

[Wheel of Thyme]

I think the "something odd" that Min sees around Avi's children is their perpetural link to saidar/saidin. That IS indeed "something odd". I also think that the war between Seanchan and Aiel has its roots in the Aiel's wish to declare blood feud with the Seanchan because of the leashed Aiel damane. The Aiel either never accepted the Dragons Peace, OR, the fact an imposed peace was shoved on them creates the problem.

[Evoke]

No, Rand excluded them from the Dragons Peace - the pact all nations swore to before facing Tarmon Gaidon. He had focused so much energy on bringing the nations of the Wetlands together that he was lost as to how to include the Aiel. In his dealings with Fortuona he loses further ji by kneeling to her in accordance with the Ishamael manipulated Seanchan Karaethon Cycle. His inability to return the captured gai'shain was another sore matter. Aiel have very long memories, all of the Aiel's future problems stem from these matters. If Aviendha's children don't start it someone else would.

 

Aviendha's task will be to guide Rand and change these key events so that future generations of Aiel don't feel slighted.

[jsbrads]

Note: had the aiel gone back to the way of the leaf the conquering of Randland would not have occured

Nakomi not only sounds reasonable, but is right and one logical result is stop fighting or way of leaf

We already know (for some reason) the Age of Legend aes Sedai instructed the aiel, they can forget any task given to them, but don't forget that one thing the way of the leaf (could it perhaps be like that sword of truth village who has beserker blood and if they pick up a weapon they can't put it down, they can never stop fighting? Sound familiar)

[jsbrads]

Also strange is where are all the people, Rand may die young, but Avienda and Elayne and Egwene all dead/on another continent? Why is a twenty year old girl without advice of elders? A bit of a dig, but had Avienda been the girls only teacher in ji toh I can see her getting it all wrong like she does, but growing up around aiel...

She also seems a bit spoiled not unlikely considering who her father was

And she also is able to channel as a child? Define child. That doesn't make sense

Funny how this girl says rand did not tell the aiel what to do so now... In later harder times, the old aiel wise woman takes responsibility for herself

[jsbrads]

The aiel become racist, shaido abandon ji toh and they still identify them as aiel, this is new too

Aiel should find jobs in the new Twin Towers

[Val Mickey]

You know what the easiest way to avoid this future is?

 

Kill Bruan!

[James71]

You know what the easiest way to avoid this future is?

 

Kill Bruan!

 

Not only that, Balefire him so that he is gone for good.

[Hallow]

Am I the only one who think an outrigger novel or trilogy set in an alternate universe where Aviendhas visions came to reality (I assume it wont happen in the "main" universe) about Asha'man who kept fighting after the Black Tower falls would be awesomely awesome?

[Yates_]

I think the second trip through the columns is the same as the Dark Cave on Dagobah. It forces the person to deal with a "worst case scenario" that plays off of the deepest fears of the person who takes the trip.

 

Isn't it convenient that Aviendha was worried about the Aiel's place in the world, only to have a vision of that very thing.

 

For that future to come to pass, many notables would have to be absent. Rand, Mat, and Perrin almost all have to die, (which would be Av's fear of her friends dying) and all the old guard leadership would have to pass.

 

I know I said it earlier, but the Seanchan's victory just seems too easy.

 

In TGH, when Egwene is taken, her SD mentions that if she can make the Leashes she will be pampered. Though it is not explicitly said, I have to think that the Randland Seanchan have no way to replicate them, that they merely brought a lot of extras with them on the invasion. Given the high level of Paranoia in Seanchan, I can't imagine the Empress letting one of the makers go on the invasion, because that creates a potentially powerful new enemy, if the invader were able to create new leashes and collar Randland. The Imperial Throne's power is built ont he backs of the Damane, and that only works if you have a monoponly on the making of leashes. They would have to be heavily guarded and concentrated, or the whole shebang wouldn't work.

 

At some point in their conquest, the Seanchan would run out of leashes.

 

The counter to this argument is that the Seanchan could simply travel back to the TOM and get more, or snag a maker. But that would take a lot of time and manpower, since there is Chaos in Seanchan, and the Leashes are the most powerful and valuable weapon available. Also, given how few are capable of making the leashes, destroying their manufactories would be paramount to Randlanders.

 

How unlikely is it that the Aiel NEVER capture a Sul Dam, who they know can channel and therefore are vulnerable to the leash?

 

The Aiel would capture a Sul Dam, leash her, and ask her where the blasted things come from. Then travel there and level the joint. The Seanchan would be trying to caputre the place, not destroy it. And an Aiel death squad smuggled into the place by male (undectectable) channelers could kill everyone, and then anihilate the surrounding areas. Thus the Seanchan run out of leashes, and cannot simply leash Randlanders ad infinitem.

 

I know I have spouted off on this before, but the laundry list of things that have to happen, or not happen, for the Seanchan to win is mind boggling.

 

Just a few of major instances necessary for Seanchan victory, especially one this decisive.

Rand and Mat die.

Tuon not survive long.

Aviendha and Elayne die soon, probably Eqwene as well.

The Randlanders not using Male-Female circles to sweep aside the Seanchan.

The Aiel and Randlanders to consistently make the worst possible tactical and strategic decisions.

 

It is too pat. This is a "what if machine" at work, cause if it was set in stone, wouldn't the Jenn Aiel, and their Aes Sedai companions, have been able to use them to set up the LB perfectly? If it was that accurate at projecting the future, the Jenn Aiel could have set things up easily.

 

On blank date help Sheinar turn back Trollocks

On blank date give Cairhein a sappling.

Watch for wetlander woman here on this date

If (when) they cut down tree these guys go get them under this leader.

On this date, meet Tall redhaired kid in place called two rivers and take him to Tear, then Rhuidean.

 

It all worked out, but if this TerAngreal was so money, the Jenn Aiel could have gamed the system to preclude failure. That they didn't speaks worlds to me.

[Sharaman]

 

I know I have spouted off on this before, but the laundry list of things that have to happen, or not happen, for the Seanchan to win is mind boggling.

 

Just a few of major instances necessary for Seanchan victory, especially one this decisive.

Rand and Mat die.

Tuon not survive long.

Aviendha and Elayne die soon, probably Eqwene as well.

The Randlanders not using Male-Female circles to sweep aside the Seanchan.

The Aiel and Randlanders to consistently make the worst possible tactical and strategic decisions.

 

None of these are either impossible or difficult to conceive in themselves.

Rand-Mat both do a lot of high-risk things and are guaranteed to do more during T'Geddon

Tuon could be assassinated by any of a dozen different people/ factions.

AM and WT don't trust each other much and will trust each other even less if the BT hassle is resolved with sisters killing AM and vice-versa.

The Seanchan by and large, are better and more methodical soldiers than most Westlanders aside from having a huge coordinated, logistically well-managed force that uses and integrates every resource available to the EVA, which includes exotic flying animals, etc.