Rand & Egwene (Full Spoilers)

[Danny7185]

We'll see how foolish Egwene is when the Meeting comes. I think she still believes that Rand is a 20 something sheepherder with less experience than her when it comes to the One Power and the Last Battle.

 

She has been so busy trying to fix the WT that she has never even bothered with Rand since the Aiel Waste. She had the 5 minute conversation with Rand/LTT but she mistook his tranquility for madness.

 

But when the Meeting comes around, and Rand lets her know that for all her training and rise to Amrylin she is about 400 years experience during the Age of Legends behind, if she still doesn't listen to him then she is a fool.

 

I almost feel bad at how easily Rand played her.

[anotherfingolfin]

she makes me sympathize with her boyfriend, who is the biggest db in Randland.

i have always detested Egwene's attitude, and i remember feeling the same way.

 

i don't think she is wrong at all in panicking at what rand told her, because if you are not as enlightened or at the very least, have not given the problem as much thought as rand and his crew have, breaking the seals can sound insane! i guess, rand didn't really discuss or try to explain very well at the meeting, so again, you cant blame her much. that said, i really don't see what she is trying to achieve by asking for all those armies to gather there. leaders, ok, but the entire military force of the continent? i don't get it. it is not just idiotic (i mean, you have shadowspan invading, but you still want every soldier in the world to go someplace else?), but as far as i can tell, all that she can achieve by it is making a point - "see, THIS is the number of soldiers who's leaders think you are wrong."

ok, and if she cannot change rand's mind, what does she mean by 'force her hand'? what will she try and do? attack rand? uh...

 

I greatly (greatly, greatly, GREATLY!) enjoyed Perrin making a fool of her in the Dream.

i'll be honest, this was like my second favourite moment in the book after the 'Rand Sedai' bit.

Perrin's reaction to seeing her was like 'be careful, but i am sure you know that' and, 'good that she made it to being an Aes Sedai'. In contrast, she tried to tie him up in air a second time, after she realised it was him, and that he could dispel her weaves. Later, she remarks to herself that the fact that Perrin was the one doing the amazing things is what was more shocking than the things themselves.

I think this kinda highlights her disgusting arrogance and failure to realise that her progression in the world is not unique, and her general holier-than-thou, entitled attitude.

[Cyf]

I don't think Egwene disagreeing with Rand is wrong. He phrased it poorly. I /do/ think that the way she's going about her disagreement is utterly moronic. What, exactly, does she think an army sitting in a field can do? I mean, come on.

 

Luckily, I think Rand is playing her and when he gets there, it'll be like when LTT stood in front of Latra, but this time it won't be just Latra's people, but people of the world, and Egwene's politcking will come to naught.

 

Edited to: Fix Typo.

[AcuWill]

I really want to see a "You can call me Rand Sedai" moment with Egwene in front of the whole White Tower. I think that is what got to Cadsuane, although even she couldn't' admit it to herself, Rand is the ONLY true Aes Sedai ie. trained when it was legit, from the AoL, A Servant of all (this cuts out all the turned to dark ones), properly raised, etc.

 

Have Egwene put that in her pipe and smoke it, along with the rest of the White Tower.

 

PS. I completely agree with all the frustration where Egwene thinks she's the only one on the planet and from the Two Rivers that has developed, especially with regard to becoming more powerful. Tbh, of the original Two Rivers lot, I think Egwene is the weakest of the group. That would be another great shot at her, if somehow she could realize that.

[Hopefire]

PS. I completely agree with all the frustration where Egwene thinks she's the only one on the planet and from the Two Rivers that has developed, especially with regard to becoming more powerful. Tbh, of the original Two Rivers lot, I think Egwene is the weakest of the group. That would be another great shot at her, if somehow she could realize that.

 

I keep hoping for a scene that reunites the Eye of the World cast - Rand, Mat, Perrin, Nynaeve, Moiraine, and Thom; Lan is unfortunately elsewhere, and I wouldn't mind seeing Faile, Tuon, Aviendha, Elayne and Min showing up. Having all of them there, sharing a moment of peace and quiet and friendship and love before the final battles, laughing and crying about how far they've come from those early days. And Egwene being absent, because those people aren't as important to her as her work as AS.

 

I can hope.

 

 

 

I sort of hope that Egwene is under a lingering compulsion put on her by Aran'gar; a deep mistrust of Rand and a belief in her own correctness reinforced by compulsion would be a sneaky way to attack the good guys.

[anotherfingolfin]

PS. I completely agree with all the frustration where Egwene thinks she's the only one on the planet and from the Two Rivers that has developed, especially with regard to becoming more powerful. Tbh, of the original Two Rivers lot, I think Egwene is the weakest of the group. That would be another great shot at her, if somehow she could realize that.

 

She has two major things- channelling and the dream world. At channelling, Nyn is stronger (and that's not counting Rand). Heck, Nyn even has an infinitely cooler warder! In T'a'r, Perrin is evidently more badass. She has grown the most powerful in terms of political clout; but that's if you again exlude the Dragon Reborn. That leaves Mat. But then again, he's unique. He has goddam lady luck on his side! And potentially the clout of the Seanchan Empire! (Not to mention, a winning personality. :-D )

As annoying as I find Elayne, it's not as bad when she underestimates Mat/Rand. Well, she has always been a princess, so ok, her underestimating the village boys is understandable (albeit idiotic), but when the village girl does the same? That's just inexcusable.

[analyticalkeys]

Check me on this but can't Moiraine weave a Gateway? She does have an angreal but I can't remember if she knows the weaves.

 

Dennis

 

Nope, Egwene discovered the saidar Traveling a month after Moiraine vanished.

 

Yea, but we know how storylines with Moraine go... she seems to know everything anyway.

[Templadir]

 

It's also unclear how/when/why Mat would go to Merrilor. It may be that somebody in Caemlyn has the good sense to send to Merrilor for backup so Mat could end up meeting everybody in Caemlyn. Given how little good sense anybody has ever shown so far in this series, I'm not holding my breath for that, though.

 

Don't know about Mat but what do you think the odds are that the Seanchan will make their second attack on Tar Valon on the day that most of the world leaders and armies are present?

Odds of the Ogier suddenly showing up?

Aviendha returning?

 

Rand is planning on traveling to SG that day but I belive he has to postpone a few days to establish the Dragon's Peace, help Caemlyn, Lan and free the Black Tower. Otherwise it seems that AMoL will take place during one day only (or two, "twice dawns the day..").

 

This probably should be in an AMoL speculation thread.

[decrepid dragon]

Rand: I want to break the seals

Egwene: Your only the Dragon Reborn, you dont know what your talking about.

Rand: The rubble must be cleared

Egwene: Your plan sucks. I dont have one of my own, but I am sure thats not important.

Rand: Meet me in one month

Egwene: Excellent, I will use that month to attempt to bring rulers to my side and we'll be sure to confront you. Don't know what to do after that, but we'll figure it out.

 

Random Aes Sedai: Borderlands is being swamped by Trollocs

Egwene: Excellent, I will not help in anyway.

 

Gawyn: I chased an intruder around last night and then they tried to stab me.

Egwene: That must be Mesaana.

Gawyn: Why would Mesaana try and stab me?

Egwene: You dont know what your talking about. Go Away

Gawyn: Okay, I am leaving now

Egwene: What are you doing? Don't go away

 

Egwene: Rand has to answer for his Asha`man. They are his responsibility

Nynaeve: By that logic, doesn't that mean that the Aes Sedai who kidnapped Rand are yours?

Egwene: Of course not. You are obviously taking Rands side.

 

Egwene: Rand is planning on breaking the seals. You must help me stop him

Nynaeve: Well err... I trust Rand. He has done pretty good so far

Egwene: No your wrong. Rand is wrong.

Nynaeve: You put forward a convincing argument.

 

This made me laugh so hard, thats what I was thinking when I read these parts. I can imagine it being shown to her

 

Me: look at this representation of what you did

Egwene: I don't like that, it makes me look arrogant

Me: but it mirrors your choices

Egwene: I am the Amyrlin, and I have the weight of 3000 years of people other than myself holding this seat and making decisions that were both good and bad, but thankfully we have a secret library to hide the bad ones.

Me: You have politically outmanouvered me (*conceeds*)

[Bob T Dwarf]

So wrote Herid Fel:

"Belief and order give strength. Have to clear rubble before you can build. ...

 

It is probably that note that got him killed. So, what does it contain that got the Dark's underwear in such a bunch?

 

Clearing the rubble? At first glance, breaking the Seals looks very risky, but Fel was probably right, it has to be done before any new prison can be built.

 

Kareathon Cycle:

"The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign.

The seas rage, and stormclouds gather unseen.

Beyond the horizon, hidden fires swell, and serpents nestle in the bosom.

What was exalted is cast down; what was cast down is raised up.

Order burns to clear his path."

 

I think all of that one has been fulfilled except the "bends knee to the forgotten sign" part, but that kinda depends on how you interpret the "Order burns" part.

 

Is it a literal burning, as in the attack and destruction at the White Tower that removed Elaida so that Egwene could succeed her? Or is it the Tower as an organization desiring greatly to remove whatever obstacles stand between the Dragon and the Pit of Doom? Could be either. Could be both.

 

I suspect the Prologue to A Memory of Light will tell us which.

 

Either way, Egwene needs to have some kind of epiphany if the Light is going to win.

[Capering Capers]

I think it would be hilarious if Rand showed up at the Field of Merrilor, looked around at Egwene, Elayne, Perrin, the Borderland rulers, all those kings and queens and scream:

 

"LET'S GET THIS PARTY STARTED!"

 

Then smash the Seals on the ground in front of all of them. :biggrin:

 

Reaction would be priceless.

 

Dennis

 

 

This would be priceless indeed, maybe add a nice uplifting soundtrack and go. It is not as if Egwene (or most anybody else) has had anything useful to add to his world-saving so why bother talking :-)

 

 

 

More seriously though, the analogies on the broken seals being like half a umbrella or a dam seem to be off to me. With the DO touch on the world the growth-rates of population and power (i.e. armies etc.) will (start to) be negative. While we have a rally of standing armies for a brief spell, this is only because people everywhere have left farm and village as in the prologue of TGS.

If the light-forces try to wait another year the food-situation may be hopeless, unless Rand starts walking the land 24/7 to keep crops from failing, all the while being harassed by the DO, armies from the blight and other unpleasantness.

 

Egwene, being a ruler and all, should see this and infer that Rand's plan might be the only way forward and is therefore not right in simply opposing. I agree however that her actions are not hindered by taveren influence because it is exactly what she is supposed to do.

 

 

Oh and Egwene had me on Gawyn's side too with her cold demands for obedience as the price for intimacy...

[JohnnyBeGood]

So wrote Herid Fel:

"Belief and order give strength. Have to clear rubble before you can build. ...

 

It is probably that note that got him killed. So, what does it contain that got the Dark's underwear in such a bunch?

 

Clearing the rubble? At first glance, breaking the Seals looks very risky, but Fel was probably right, it has to be done before any new prison can be built.

 

Rand and many others here are forgetting the first Part of that Note. Belief and order give strength. Right now there is not enough belief and order, if Rand goes to Shayol Ghul now he will be crushed. This is not going to be a Battle were the one with most Military Power or Strength in Sadir and Sadin wins. Thats why the Choedan Kal were not needed.

Rand has been working a bit on the order Part, but has long since given up on it except for focusing his established order on Tarmon Gai'don. The Belief part has been totally over looked by him. He and the other Major Players of the Light need to strengthen the Belief part, spread out the Hope. Rand is not the only one who can clear the skies around him and make the world right/grand with his presences.

[heltok]

I think Egwene will get a shocker when she meets Team Rand who has some very powerful women around him

 

*Nynaeve - strong in the power, done tons of cool stuff, dont like AS-ways and believes in Rand

*Aliva - strongest in OP and really likes Rand

*Cadsuane - a legend among AS who by now realize that Rand Sedai deserves some credit

*Sorealia - most badass WO who Egwene really respects

*Aviendha - unraveler, TAidentifier, special gateways, strong in OP and now strong will and in love with Rand

*Moraine - Rands favourite AS

 

Really who does the WT have that is cooler than anyone of these? She will get a real wakeup call on how much weaker she and all her new friends are compared to these women.

[anotherfingolfin]

I think Egwene will get a shocker when she meets Team Rand who has some very powerful women around him

 

*Nynaeve - strong in the power, done tons of cool stuff, dont like AS-ways and believes in Rand

*Aliva - strongest in OP and really likes Rand

*Cadsuane - a legend among AS who by now realize that Rand Sedai deserves some credit

*Sorealia - most badass WO who Egwene really respects

*Aviendha - unraveler, TAidentifier, special gateways, strong in OP and now strong will and in love with Rand

*Moraine - Rands favourite AS

 

Really who does the WT have that is cooler than anyone of these? She will get a real wakeup call on how much weaker she and all her new friends are compared to these women.

 

if only it would play out like this...

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

Rand and many others here are forgetting the first Part of that Note. Belief and order give strength. Right now there is not enough belief and order, if Rand goes to Shayol Ghul now he will be crushed. This is not going to be a Battle were the one with most Military Power or Strength in Sadir and Sadin wins. Thats why the Choedan Kal were not needed.

Rand has been working a bit on the order Part, but has long since given up on it except for focusing his established order on Tarmon Gai'don. The Belief part has been totally over looked by him. He and the other Major Players of the Light need to strengthen the Belief part, spread out the Hope. Rand is not the only one who can clear the skies around him and make the world right/grand with his presences.

 

I agree.

 

To some extent, that's Rand's fault. But, mostly it's the fault of all those who do not believe. In the last analysis, they don't believe because they don't want to believe.

 

Whether it's Egwene, or Lorstrom, or Bertome, or anybody else, they want to believe that they hold center stage, so they ignore inconvenient facts and interpret everything in a way that fits their conceit.

 

All Rand can do is lead the horses to water.

[AcuWill]

So wrote Herid Fel:

"Belief and order give strength. Have to clear rubble before you can build. ...

 

It is probably that note that got him killed. So, what does it contain that got the Dark's underwear in such a bunch?

 

Clearing the rubble? At first glance, breaking the Seals looks very risky, but Fel was probably right, it has to be done before any new prison can be built.

 

Rand and many others here are forgetting the first Part of that Note. Belief and order give strength. Right now there is not enough belief and order, if Rand goes to Shayol Ghul now he will be crushed. This is not going to be a Battle were the one with most Military Power or Strength in Sadir and Sadin wins. Thats why the Choedan Kal were not needed.

Rand has been working a bit on the order Part, but has long since given up on it except for focusing his established order on Tarmon Gai'don. The Belief part has been totally over looked by him. He and the other Major Players of the Light need to strengthen the Belief part, spread out the Hope. Rand is not the only one who can clear the skies around him and make the world right/grand with his presences.

I don't think Rand has forgotten at all about that part, in fact, he has realized it and is beginning to use it in his favor. See the apple orchard, Ebo Dar, etc. I think that is why we wants everyone with his and is using Egwene to "rally forces" to convince him otherwise. Already, Perrin and Nynaeve believe. I think the big meeting will be the final stroke for his bringing belief and order.

[DemandredFO]

Egwene needs to have her head handed to her or the White Tower will fall. So far everything she's had has fallen into her lap and she thinks Rand is dangerous and talks to him as the dragon not rand. She sees the personalities of the world as tools not people and she makes me feel bad for Gawyn. I should hate her just for that. It seems the Asha'Man, at least Grady, seem to be developing humanity and the AS seem to be going toward the AM state pre-cleansing. Egwene also doesn't ask Rand to help free the AS prisoners.

[slacker123]

I've always liked the idea that Roedral in Murandy is Demandred. Considering Murandy's lack of response to Egwene's request... kinda lends more support to it, I think.

 

Tenobia makes me suspicious. I guess she isn't a Darkfriend unless she can somehow suppress anti-Darkfriend abilities of Rand, though.

 

So, yeah. Murandy. Which I'm almost certain is ruled by the Shadow.

 

But it looks like a good deal of nobility have come. And Rand will certainly drive the Shadow from them, most certainly some DFs there. And BA remnants may be found.

 

Yeah, I do hope that Murandy is shadow-held. I am not sure about Roedean actually being Demandred. Brandon has said that Demandred is the biggest player as far as the Shadow is concerned, and that his locations will pay off big time. I cant see how ruling Murandy, which is pretty small and not really important, would have that effect. I think that Demandred has a hand in it, but I woudl say that he has his hand in other places aswell.

 

Yeah, Tenobia is wild. Note that the ruler in Maradon, the one that was a DF, was Tenobia's favorite. Could mean something? But I agree, I find it hard that she can dodge Rand's superpowers. She is hardly good at keeping her emotions in the first place.

 

Yep to the last point. I think that, as Rand said, the time has come for the final battle to begin. No more spies and traitors, just Light v Shadow in an epic showdown.

 

Er..

 

You all know what I'm like for crazy theories..

 

So here's a beaut..

 

....what if Tenobia (courtesy of MoM etc) was Demandred?

 

not possible, rand is no longer blind to people who serve the DO

[JohnnyBeGood]

 

Rand and many others here are forgetting the first Part of that Note. Belief and order give strength. Right now there is not enough belief and order, if Rand goes to Shayol Ghul now he will be crushed. This is not going to be a Battle were the one with most Military Power or Strength in Sadir and Sadin wins. Thats why the Choedan Kal were not needed.

Rand has been working a bit on the order Part, but has long since given up on it except for focusing his established order on Tarmon Gai'don. The Belief part has been totally over looked by him. He and the other Major Players of the Light need to strengthen the Belief part, spread out the Hope. Rand is not the only one who can clear the skies around him and make the world right/grand with his presences.

 

I agree.

 

To some extent, that's Rand's fault. But, mostly it's the fault of all those who do not believe. In the last analysis, they don't believe because they don't want to believe.

 

Whether it's Egwene, or Lorstrom, or Bertome, or anybody else, they want to believe that they hold center stage, so they ignore inconvenient facts and interpret everything in a way that fits their conceit.

 

All Rand can do is lead the horses to water.

 

You got my Belief a bit False. They(all of Randland that has not turned to the shadow) don´t need blind belief that the dragon will save the Day. They need to believe in the light, they need to be able to hope for the future and believe that everyman and women including themselves can help.

 

Ebo Dar is a perfect show of how the Darkone is winning the game. Rand himself helped to ruin it during his time there and when he abandoned it the People there had lost Hope and Belief. When he came back it was not just his new aura of Light and the food found that made it right, but giving the People he meet inner strength, renewing their hope not by just ordering them around but activating their own Potential.

This is what he has to do, what he should be doing everywhere he can right now, even in the Places he already thinks are his already. He also needs to get back together with Perrin, Mat and others who are important to the Wheel, so they can spread the Glory of the Light together. But sadly he does not know this he fears that prolonging the confrontation with the Darkone will weaken the World to much.

[Sharaman]

I've always liked the idea that Roedral in Murandy is Demandred. Considering Murandy's lack of response to Egwene's request... kinda lends more support to it, I think.

 

Tenobia makes me suspicious. I guess she isn't a Darkfriend unless she can somehow suppress anti-Darkfriend abilities of Rand, though.

 

So, yeah. Murandy. Which I'm almost certain is ruled by the Shadow.

 

But it looks like a good deal of nobility have come. And Rand will certainly drive the Shadow from them, most certainly some DFs there. And BA remnants may be found.

 

Yeah, I do hope that Murandy is shadow-held. I am not sure about Roedean actually being Demandred. Brandon has said that Demandred is the biggest player as far as the Shadow is concerned, and that his locations will pay off big time. I cant see how ruling Murandy, which is pretty small and not really important, would have that effect. I think that Demandred has a hand in it, but I woudl say that he has his hand in other places aswell.

 

Yeah, Tenobia is wild. Note that the ruler in Maradon, the one that was a DF, was Tenobia's favorite. Could mean something? But I agree, I find it hard that she can dodge Rand's superpowers. She is hardly good at keeping her emotions in the first place.

 

Yep to the last point. I think that, as Rand said, the time has come for the final battle to begin. No more spies and traitors, just Light v Shadow in an epic showdown.

 

Er..

 

You all know what I'm like for crazy theories..

 

So here's a beaut..

 

....what if Tenobia (courtesy of MoM etc) was Demandred?

 

not possible, rand is no longer blind to people who serve the DO

Also not possible because she features onscreen in TPoD.

I'd harboured a hope that Demandred = Berelain until that RJ quote came along.

[Zefram]

Egwene needs to have her head handed to her or the White Tower will fall. So far everything she's had has fallen into her lap and she thinks Rand is dangerous and talks to him as the dragon not rand. She sees the personalities of the world as tools not people and she makes me feel bad for Gawyn. I should hate her just for that. It seems the Asha'Man, at least Grady, seem to be developing humanity and the AS seem to be going toward the AM state pre-cleansing. Egwene also doesn't ask Rand to help free the AS prisoners.

I agree. It is indicated when she meets Elayne and Nynaeve and they go sort of like "meh" instead of being shocked on Rand's plan to break seals, she is SURE that Rand somehow influenced them and there is no way they might have agreed with him instead of her about the seals on their own free will based on their knowledge about the seals and life experiences. She is RIGHT and everybody else who disagrees or has doubts is influenced by Rand's ta'vereness or is DF.

[Jhirrad]

So wrote Herid Fel:

"Belief and order give strength. Have to clear rubble before you can build. ...

 

It is probably that note that got him killed. So, what does it contain that got the Dark's underwear in such a bunch?

 

Clearing the rubble? At first glance, breaking the Seals looks very risky, but Fel was probably right, it has to be done before any new prison can be built.

 

Kareathon Cycle:

"The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign.

The seas rage, and stormclouds gather unseen.

Beyond the horizon, hidden fires swell, and serpents nestle in the bosom.

What was exalted is cast down; what was cast down is raised up.

Order burns to clear his path."

 

I think all of that one has been fulfilled except the "bends knee to the forgotten sign" part, but that kinda depends on how you interpret the "Order burns" part.

 

Is it a literal burning, as in the attack and destruction at the White Tower that removed Elaida so that Egwene could succeed her? Or is it the Tower as an organization desiring greatly to remove whatever obstacles stand between the Dragon and the Pit of Doom? Could be either. Could be both.

 

I suspect the Prologue to A Memory of Light will tell us which.

 

Either way, Egwene needs to have some kind of epiphany if the Light is going to win.

 

Sorry, but the part you are saying hasn't been fulfilled has DEFINITELY been fulfilled. To the point that it was blatantly mentioned being fulfilled. I'm at work and don't have books with me so I can't quote chapter and page, but, Lord of Chaos, after Dumai's Wells, when the Aes Sedai kneel before Rand with the Banner of Light and swear allegiance to him. The very end of that book quotes the prophecy you reference and talks about a day spoken of in prophecy. That particular piece has been fulfilled for a LONG time now.

[randsc]

^^^^ Exactly right. It went something like, "The unstained tower, broken, bent knee to the forgotten sign. The first nine Aes Sedai swore fealty to the Dragon Reborn, and the world was changed forever."

[Bob T Dwarf]

Individual Aes Sedai succumbing to Verin's Compulsion is not the Amyrlin Seat on behalf of the entire Tower acknowledging The Dragon's supremacy.

 

I'm grateful for the small win the individuals make, but I'm holding out for the BIG win the Amyrlin would make.

[Bob T Dwarf]

You got my Belief a bit False. They(all of Randland that has not turned to the shadow) don´t need blind belief that the dragon will save the Day. They need to believe in the light, they need to be able to hope for the future and believe that everyman and women including themselves can help.

 

Ebo Dar is a perfect show of how the Darkone is winning the game. Rand himself helped to ruin it during his time there and when he abandoned it the People there had lost Hope and Belief. When he came back it was not just his new aura of Light and the food found that made it right, but giving the People he meet inner strength, renewing their hope not by just ordering them around but activating their own Potential.

This is what he has to do, what he should be doing everywhere he can right now, even in the Places he already thinks are his already. He also needs to get back together with Perrin, Mat and others who are important to the Wheel, so they can spread the Glory of the Light together. But sadly he does not know this he fears that prolonging the confrontation with the Darkone will weaken the World to much.

 

I'll stand behind what I said. Your clarification is valid also. People do need to believe in their cause and themselves, not just the Dragon Reborn. But they do need to believe in Rand as well.

 

And it was Bandar Eban not Ebou Dar. Ebou Dar is where the Seanchan are now headquartered.