Rand & Egwene (Full Spoilers)

[randsc]

This is similar to another confrontation that happened between Rand and the Borderlanders at Far Madding, where he again nonchalantly enters a place he knows he will not be able to channel, and will be at a disadvantage, yet he is not worried. Much of this is obviously due to his transformation that occured on Dragonmount, but then he says something about how if the meeting with the Borderlanders had taken place a month ago, he would've met their slaps with balefire. One of the Borderlander monarchs says it is impossible to channel within range of the Guardian, and Rand says that the Guardian blocks the channeling of the One Power, and only the One Power. This makes me think that Rand still has a connection to the True Power.

 

I'll have to re-read this section later, but I don't remember him saying anything about balefire. I believe he was referring to the fact that last month, he was still dark rand and may not have been able to remember the answer to their prophecy question. Off goes his head, end of the world.

 

He says that a month earlier he would have balefired all of them. I took it as something he could do than but not now. I think the reason he is so confident is because in some way he can control his tavereness, if you will. Remember, the pattern forces taverens but taverens also can force the threads around them. Remember AS said that they could barely breath let along speak when Rand was in WT - i think he did that on purpose. I think he could actually stop someone's heart just by his will, his control will. He bends Matrix to his will, baby! Neo style!!!

 

 

Interesting. I took it to mean that that was something he WOULD have done then but WOULD NOT now.

 

I'm pretty sure he can still touch the TP. I'm also pretty sure he knows that it isn't a good idea.

[Exy]

Destroying the seals is part of Rand's plan (whatever that may be) to defeat the Dark One. If Egwene so strongly believes that the seals must not be destroyed, she must atleast try to come up with an alternative plan to defeat the DO - which does not involve breaking the seals. At the moment, all she says is that Rand must defeat the Dark One, but do so while abiding by her conditions .

She doesn't know anything about Rand's plan. We don't either. We don't even know that he has a full plan yet. His POVs don't say that he has everything all worked out.

 

You're looking at this in an irrational way. Egwene didn't say, "Rand, abandon your fully assembled, logical plan for defeating the Dark One because I don't like it." She said, "You want to break the flaming seals that hold the Dark One in place? Are you fucking nuts?" Which, again, is totally logical.

 

 

Like the cleansing of Saidin? Until now, that is the only thing which comes closest in impact to the Last Battle. Remember the attitude of the Aes Sedai (except Cadsuane) there? Nesune and the other one? Wonder what would be the state of the male channelers now had Rand been "persuaded" to abandon his plan to cleanse the taint.

That's a complete non sequitur. Egwene didn't try to stop Rand from cleansing saidin. That would have made no sense.

 

Your argument here boils down to saying "If Egwene had insisted that Rand not do a perfectly reasonable and in fact beneficial thing like cleanse saidin, a lot of bad things would have happened. Man, what a horrible bitch she is!" The problem with that argument, of course, is that she hadn't tried to stop him from cleansing saidin.

 

I assume you're trying to draw some parallel between the cleansing of saidin and breaking the seals but you have failed to come up with any analogy between the two things. One of them is obviously a good idea to any character in the story. The other is not obviously a good idea at all to any character in the books, even though the reader can see that it is.

 

 

Actually, its the "Rand cannot possibly be right and anyone who supports his plan must "ta'verened" and I could not possibly be wrong" attitude which makes her arrogant.

Uh, she thinks she's right. Why shouldn't she? That doesn't make her arrogant. No one thinks Rand's arrogant when he thinks he's right about something.

 

And she sees that his plan is -- at least as far as any character in the book besides Rand and Min can tell -- completely insane.

 

These reasons people are inventing to hate Egwene are weaksauce. Any reasonable person in her position would react to what he said by trying to stop him.

[NetSlider]

This is similar to another confrontation that happened between Rand and the Borderlanders at Far Madding, where he again nonchalantly enters a place he knows he will not be able to channel, and will be at a disadvantage, yet he is not worried. Much of this is obviously due to his transformation that occured on Dragonmount, but then he says something about how if the meeting with the Borderlanders had taken place a month ago, he would've met their slaps with balefire. One of the Borderlander monarchs says it is impossible to channel within range of the Guardian, and Rand says that the Guardian blocks the channeling of the One Power, and only the One Power. This makes me think that Rand still has a connection to the True Power.

 

I'll have to re-read this section later, but I don't remember him saying anything about balefire. I believe he was referring to the fact that last month, he was still dark rand and may not have been able to remember the answer to their prophecy question. Off goes his head, end of the world.

 

He says that a month earlier he would have balefired all of them. I took it as something he could do than but not now. I think the reason he is so confident is because in some way he can control his tavereness, if you will. Remember, the pattern forces taverens but taverens also can force the threads around them. Remember AS said that they could barely breath let along speak when Rand was in WT - i think he did that on purpose. I think he could actually stop someone's heart just by his will, his control will. He bends Matrix to his will, baby! Neo style!!!

 

 

Interesting. I took it to mean that that was something he WOULD have done then but WOULD NOT now.

 

I'm pretty sure he can still touch the TP. I'm also pretty sure he knows that it isn't a good idea.

 

That would be my second choice. To be honest, I really don't know. Both takes make sense wording wise and story wise. And both lead to different possibilities.

[thedragonreformed]

Like the cleansing of Saidin? Until now, that is the only thing which comes closest in impact to the Last Battle. Remember the attitude of the Aes Sedai (except Cadsuane) there? Nesune and the other one? Wonder what would be the state of the male channelers now had Rand been "persuaded" to abandon his plan to cleanse the taint.

That's a complete non sequitur. Egwene didn't try to stop Rand from cleansing saidin. That would have made no sense.

 

I was responding to this comment of yours.

 

Further, Rand has done countless things that, if Egwene knows the half of them, would naturally lead her not to trust him. He's given plenty of reasons to the other characters not to trust his judgment too much, let alone have the extreme faith in him to back him on something like this.

 

I'd say cleansing the taint would give a HUGE reason to the other characters to atleast think, "Hey this guy knows something after all. He did something thought to be impossible. Hmmm, maybe, just maybe, we can trust him with this other impossible thing too, which incidentally is the main purpose of his rebirth."

 

To be clearer, I believe, 100 percent, that had Egwene been there with Rand prior to the cleansing, she would have tried her best to stop him. The Aes Sedai believed using the Choedan Kal was dangerous, that it could destroy the world - Egwene would have latched on to that right away. She would have said - "Using the Choedan Kal? That is madness! Surely you can cleanse the taint without using the CK"

 

I assume you're trying to draw some parallel between the cleansing of saidin and breaking the seals but you have failed to come up with any analogy between the two things. One of them is obviously a good idea to any character in the story. The other is not obviously a good idea at all to any character in the books, even though the reader can see that it is.

I should have been clearer. I was referring to the usage of choedan kal and not the cleansing itself. Using the CK was considered to be madness. It was felt that Rand would break the world. I am getting a sense of deja vu here.

 

Uh, she thinks she's right. Why shouldn't she? That doesn't make her arrogant. No one thinks Rand's arrogant when he thinks he's right about something.

Like I said before, its the "Rand cannot possibly be right and anyone who supports his plan must be "ta'verened" and I could not possibly be wrong" attitude which bothers me. Not even when Nynaeve and Elayne feel its not too bad, which leads me to -

 

And she sees that his plan is -- at least as far as any character in the book besides Rand and Min can tell -- completely insane.

 

Add Nynaeve, Elayne, Cadsuane and Perrin to the list of people who didn't think it is completely insane.

[RahulSingh]

does anyone think attacking SG maybe a bad idea? the same thing was done 3k years ago and i'd suppose the df's know the forces of light will try this again.... maybe a good idea to do something else. since we know LTT's plan failed 3k years ago maybe they should try a different plan.

[randsc]

does anyone think attacking SG maybe a bad idea? the same thing was done 3k years ago and i'd suppose the df's know the forces of light will try this again.... maybe a good idea to do something else. since we know LTT's plan failed 3k years ago maybe they should try a different plan.

 

 

Like what, bombing Kososvo?

 

Gotta go where the fish are.

[capuga]

does anyone think attacking SG maybe a bad idea? the same thing was done 3k years ago and i'd suppose the df's know the forces of light will try this again.... maybe a good idea to do something else. since we know LTT's plan failed 3k years ago maybe they should try a different plan.

 

LTT's plan did not fail. He sealed the Dark One. The taint was an unforunate side effect that Rand believes he now knows how to avoid (using both sides of the Power). Whether he is correct or not still remains to be seen.

[NetSlider]

does anyone think attacking SG maybe a bad idea? the same thing was done 3k years ago and i'd suppose the df's know the forces of light will try this again.... maybe a good idea to do something else. since we know LTT's plan failed 3k years ago maybe they should try a different plan.

 

 

Like what, bombing Kososvo?

 

Gotta go where the fish are.

 

HAHAHAhA!!!!! Bombing Kosovo???!!! WTF? Made me laugh by ass off here, man!

 

Well, and I have to agree with the answer, yes, they need to go there.

[RahulSingh]

does anyone think attacking SG maybe a bad idea? the same thing was done 3k years ago and i'd suppose the df's know the forces of light will try this again.... maybe a good idea to do something else. since we know LTT's plan failed 3k years ago maybe they should try a different plan.

 

LTT's plan did not fail. He sealed the Dark One. The taint was an unforunate side effect that Rand believes he now knows how to avoid (using both sides of the Power). Whether he is correct or not still remains to be seen.

LTT tried to seal the bore. He patched it and got saidin tainted in the process. I'd say that constitues a failure. attacking SG when the enemies know the forces of light will do so might be the wrong thing to do. They are guessing again by trying to seal the bore but this time with both the sides of the OP.

[Exy]

I'd say cleansing the taint would give a HUGE reason to the other characters to atleast think, "Hey this guy knows something after all. He did something thought to be impossible. Hmmm, maybe, just maybe, we can trust him with this other impossible thing too, which incidentally is the main purpose of his rebirth."

Him doing one big thing right is hardly proof positive that he's always right. I would say this would likely be outweighed in many people's minds by the fact that what he proposes sounds insane.

 

 

To be clearer, I believe, 100 percent, that had Egwene been there with Rand prior to the cleansing, she would have tried her best to stop him. The Aes Sedai believed using the Choedan Kal was dangerous, that it could destroy the world - Egwene would have latched on to that right away. She would have said - "Using the Choedan Kal? That is madness! Surely you can cleanse the taint without using the CK"

You're making up a hypothetical as a reason to hate her.

 

 

I should have been clearer. I was referring to the usage of choedan kal and not the cleansing itself. Using the CK was considered to be madness. It was felt that Rand would break the world. I am getting a sense of deja vu here.

I don't remember any of the Aes Sedai ever taking the position that the Choedan Kal should never be used. It was Rand himself who decided the things were too dangerous and destroyed the male one.

 

 

Add Nynaeve, Elayne, Cadsuane and Perrin to the list of people who didn't think it is completely insane.

Perrin's support is basically irrelevant, though, since he doesn't really have any particular knowledge of this and doesn't know anything about the One Power. Nynaeve, Elayne, and Cadsuane all have way more reason than Egwene does to have faith in him; Elayne can sense his transformation and Nynaeve and Cadsuane have seen him afterwards. And none of them are exactly jumping for joy at the idea either.

 

Regardless, the fact that some people agree with him doesn't make it ipso facto outrageous for anyone to disagree with him. Especially when his idea is so facially nuts.

[Exy]

LTT tried to seal the bore. He patched it and got saidin tainted in the process. I'd say that constitues a failure. attacking SG when the enemies know the forces of light will do so might be the wrong thing to do. They are guessing again by trying to seal the bore but this time with both the sides of the OP.

They're not going to do the same thing. Somehow they have to make it seem as if the Bore never existed, not just try to patch it up. When the Age of Legends rolls around again, the Pattern has to appear whole.

 

And Robert Jordan once confirmed in a Q&A that if Lews Therin had attempted to lead a mixed group of men and women to seal the Bore, both halves of the Power would have been tainted, so that's presumably not going to happen this time.

[capuga]

does anyone think attacking SG maybe a bad idea? the same thing was done 3k years ago and i'd suppose the df's know the forces of light will try this again.... maybe a good idea to do something else. since we know LTT's plan failed 3k years ago maybe they should try a different plan.

 

LTT's plan did not fail. He sealed the Dark One. The taint was an unforunate side effect that Rand believes he now knows how to avoid (using both sides of the Power). Whether he is correct or not still remains to be seen.

LTT tried to seal the bore. He patched it and got saidin tainted in the process. I'd say that constitues a failure. attacking SG when the enemies know the forces of light will do so might be the wrong thing to do. They are guessing again by trying to seal the bore but this time with both the sides of the OP.

 

He did seal the bore. His plan was never to remake it like it was before the bore was drilled. He succeeded in locking away the Dark One. If he had failed the Dark One would have broke free and destroyed the world. A bit worse than saidin getting tainted wouldn't you say? The Light was on the cusp of losing the war to the Shadow and the access keys to the CK (the only other alternative plan) were lost. Yes, the tainting of saidin was awful but it shouldn't overshadow the fact that LTT successfully locked up the Dark One and gave the world another 3000 years and another shot at fixing it better. Obviously his plan was not perfect, but Rand has considered this problem and tried to come up with a solution. The Dark One was sealed. It did not work perfectly but it was hardly a failure.

[RahulSingh]

does anyone think attacking SG maybe a bad idea? the same thing was done 3k years ago and i'd suppose the df's know the forces of light will try this again.... maybe a good idea to do something else. since we know LTT's plan failed 3k years ago maybe they should try a different plan.

 

LTT's plan did not fail. He sealed the Dark One. The taint was an unforunate side effect that Rand believes he now knows how to avoid (using both sides of the Power). Whether he is correct or not still remains to be seen.

LTT tried to seal the bore. He patched it and got saidin tainted in the process. I'd say that constitues a failure. attacking SG when the enemies know the forces of light will do so might be the wrong thing to do. They are guessing again by trying to seal the bore but this time with both the sides of the OP.

 

He did seal the bore. His plan was never to remake it like it was before the bore was drilled. He succeeded in locking away the Dark One. If he had failed the Dark One would have broke free and destroyed the world. A bit worse than saidin getting tainted wouldn't you say? The Light was on the cusp of losing the war to the Shadow and the access keys to the CK (the only other alternative plan) were lost. Yes, the tainting of saidin was awful but it shouldn't overshadow the fact that LTT successfully locked up the Dark One and gave the world another 3000 years and another shot at fixing it better. Obviously his plan was not perfect, but Rand has considered this problem and tried to come up with a solution. The Dark One was sealed. It did not work perfectly but it was hardly a failure.

It would have been a failure if he had women with him to try and seal the bore. Taint on both women and men would have broken the world, something the men almost did on their own.

Either way my point is maybe he should try something other than attacking SG again. Before the Fatal Accord they had access the CK with which they planned to seal of the blight. Maybe such a plan should be looked at again. Granted they dont have CK anymore but maybe they can come up with a way to do this kind of a thing on a smaller scale? Seal of area around SG?

[Exy]

Granted they dont have CK anymore but maybe they can come up with a way to do this kind of a thing on a smaller scale? Seal of area around SG?

That can't be what happens. They have to make it look as though the Bore never existed, as that's what it looked like during the Age of Legends. Besides, it probably wouldn't work. When they were debating it during the Age of Legends, a lot of people thought that while it would hold for awhile, once the Dark One's influence within the boundaries of whatever sort of shield they made grew great enough, he'd be able to destroy it.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I'd say cleansing the taint would give a HUGE reason to the other characters to atleast think, "Hey this guy knows something after all. He did something thought to be impossible. Hmmm, maybe, just maybe, we can trust him with this other impossible thing too, which incidentally is the main purpose of his rebirth."

Him doing one big thing right is hardly proof positive that he's always right. I would say this would likely be outweighed in many people's minds by the fact that what he proposes sounds insane.

 

 

 

snippage

 

 

Regardless, the fact that some people agree with him doesn't make it ipso facto outrageous for anyone to disagree with him. Especially when his idea is so facially nuts.

 

What makes you or them think that they are in any way qualified to decide what is a good plan for sealing away the DO and what is not?

 

If they were qualified to make such judgements, if they were qualified to come up with THE workable plan does it maybe occur to you or them that the Wheel would have made her or one of the other doubters the messiah rather than Rand?

 

 

They have proof-positive that their metaphysics is real. They know without doubt that the Wheel, the Creator, and the Dark One all exist.

 

So, where's their faith? The Wheel chose Rand al'Thor for this job. Might it not be a good idea to trust that he was chosen for the reason that he is the one who knows what to do?

 

That's what makes Egwene a totally aggravating putz. Not that she has fears, but that she fails to overcome those fears and trust in the Wheel and the guy she grew up with.

 

The Creator made the Wheel. The Wheel chose Rand. Is that good enough for Egwene? Nope. She knows better than Rand, the Wheel, and the Creator, yet too. Her hubris is right up there with Lanfear's.

[Exy]

What makes you or them think that they are in any way qualified to decide what is a good plan for sealing away the DO and what is not?

Why are you implying I think she is qualified? I never said anything like that.

 

She has no way of knowing he is, however.

 

 

If they were qualified to make such judgements, if they were qualified to come up with THE workable plan does it maybe occur to you or them that the Wheel would have made her or one of the other doubters the messiah rather than Rand?

So, in other words, this irrational rage people have at Egwene comes down, again, to HOW DARE SHE HAVE THE TEMERITY TO EVER QUESTION THE DRAGON REBORN.

 

 

So, where's their faith? The Wheel chose Rand al'Thor for this job. Might it not be a good idea to trust that he was chosen for the reason that he is the one who knows what to do?

If they had this kind of "faith" in Rand it would have been misplaced, since without other people's involvement there are a bunch of times he would have died by now. Plus, he came close to destroying the whole world hours before that conversation. Anyone who has faith that Rand will always do the right thing is an idiot.

 

And besides, and I shouldn't have to point this out again, but by this logic, if Rand is necessarily being guided by the Pattern and thus certain to be doing the right thing, then the Pattern clearly wants Egwene to protest. Obviously, given that she was the only Aes Sedai who could speak.

 

 

That's what makes Egwene a totally aggravating putz. Not that she has fears, but that she fails to overcome those fears and trust in the Wheel and the guy she grew up with.

A guy who is just now back from his debate over whether or not to destroy the world forever.

 

 

The Creator made the Wheel. The Wheel chose Rand. Is that good enough for Egwene? Nope. She knows better than Rand, the Wheel, and the Creator, yet too. Her hubris is right up there with Lanfear's.

This reasoning would only make sense if Rand was infallible. Which he's not. Hence the fact that there's no guarantee he'll win.

[Hopefire]

Uh, she thinks she's right. Why shouldn't she? That doesn't make her arrogant. No one thinks Rand's arrogant when he thinks he's right about something.

 

And she sees that his plan is -- at least as far as any character in the book besides Rand and Min can tell -- completely insane.

 

These reasons people are inventing to hate Egwene are weaksauce. Any reasonable person in her position would react to what he said by trying to stop him.

You're missing the point slightly I think. While there are some who dislike Egwene for disagreeing with Rand simply on the basis of the fact that Egwene is disagreeing with Rand, I think that the majority are disliking her for the stance she's taking in her disagreement. When Egwene thinks Rand is acting crazy, and needs to be stopped before he tears apart the world in his madness, it makes perfect sense. After all, Rand has shown himself to be unstable, and there was that thing in the Age of Legends that led to him gaining the title of Kinslayer.

 

For Egwene to be concerned, for Egwene to oppose Rand's plan while he has yet to provide any information beyond "I plan to free the Dark One," makes sense. I think that anyone who dislikes Egwene on that basis needs to be whacked with a stick. But that's not the whole of the matter.

 

I believe that the reason people dislike Egwene's position, for the most part, is because Egwene has shown herself to be inflexible in her position. It's one thing to say "Rand, you're acting crazy." But when one of the other ta'veren connected to Rand agrees with him, and when a sensible Aes Sedai who knows him as well anyone agrees with him and vouches for his mental state, and when the woman who happens to be one of Egwene's closest allies and the Queen of Andor vouches for him, it might be time to say "Well, if he can show me a valid plan beyond 'smash the seals' I'll hear him out." Instead, we have Egwene dismissing the opinions of these people.

 

Egwene's position makes sense. The way in which she's fortified her position does not.

[smileyman]

If it was just Egwene having concern over Rand's plan I wouldn't be nearly as harsh on her--but before she even meets in the Hall she starts thinking about how she needs to guide him.

 

"No," Egwene though "They need to see me confront him." (why 'confront'? why not disccuss or plan? Why does it have to be a confrontation where there would be a winner and a loser.

 

"Rand al'Thor she could be lenient wiht, but leniency here could bring about the end of the world." Hello!?! He's the Dragon Reborn, the man who will save the world from the Dark One, yet you're treating him like he's a supplicant to your throne.

 

"She had not anticipated such calm in him. Perhaps it was the calm of the criminal who had finally given himself up." Before he even announces his plan she's thinking of him as a criminal.

 

"Why have you come before the Amrylin Seat? she asked. "Have you come to make a petition or have you come to surrender yourself to the White Tower's guidance?"

 

 

The Dragon Reborn had come to the White Tower to engage in idle philosophy? Perhaps he had gone mad. "Rand," Egwene said, softening her tone. "I'm going to have some sisters talk to you to decide if there is anything . . wrong with you. Please try to understand.

 

Once they knew more about his state, they could decide what to do with him. The Dragon Reborn did need freedom to do as the prophecies said he would, but could they simply let him roam away, now that they had him?"

 

All of this before Rand said one word about the bore. From the very first bit of Egwene's POV she's plotting how to control Rand and "guide" him, when he's the bloody Dragon Reborn. Had she waited until he told her what she wanted and then thought all those it'd be understandable, but she was thinking him mad before he even detailed his plan. That's why I think she's arrogance defined (towards everybody not of the White Tower), and why I hope she's humbled mightily.

[smileyman]

 

Egwene's position makes sense. The way in which she's fortified her position does not.

 

That's part of it for me, but even more is the arrogance she has before Rand even starts talking about his plan.

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

This reasoning would only make sense if Rand was infallible. Which he's not. Hence the fact that there's no guarantee he'll win.

 

No, there's no guarantee he'll win. There's only a guarantee that without him the Light will not win. Point being, he's their best shot.

 

Him, Rand al'Thor, Dragon Reborn. Not Egwene al'Vere.

 

Let's see what somebody who may know a bit more about the situation than Egwene thinks:

... "The Pattern pays no heed to human plans, Siuan. With all our scheming, we forgot what we were dealing with. Ta'veren. Elaida is wrong. Artur Paendrag Tanreall was never this strongly ta'veren. The Wheel will weave the Pattern around this young man as it wills, whatever our plans.

 

The anger left the Amyrlin's face replaced by white-faced shock. "It sounds as if you are saying we might as well give up. Do you now suggest standing aside and watching the world burn?"

 

"No, Siuan. Never standing aside." Yet the world will burn, Siuan, one way or another, whatever we do. You could never see that. "But we must now realize that our plans are precarious things. We have even less control than we thought. Perhaps only a fingernail's grip. The winds of destiny are blowing, Siuan, and we must ride them where they take us."

 

Egwene is being a witless fool here. She needs to acquire some of Moiraine's insight. She needs to remember her earliest lessons in weaving One Power. She needs to practice surrender and acceptance.

[Hopefire]

 

Egwene's position makes sense. The way in which she's fortified her position does not.

 

That's part of it for me, but even more is the arrogance she has before Rand even starts talking about his plan.

I don't disagree - after Rand, Egwene is the most arrogant character in the series - but I was making a point specifically about Rand's plans to break the Seals and Egwene's opposition to the plan. Egwene's opposition to Rand's plan isn't a sign of arrogance on her part, though the way in which she refuses to take into account the opinions of the other primary forces of opposition to the Dark is arrogant.

 

Egwene is Aes Sedai. Her character arc has taken her to the place of where the average Aes Sedai was at the start of the series. She believes that the White Tower is the world's first, last, and best line of defense against the Shadow; she believes that the White Tower is collectively the wisest group of people in the world, and that the rest of the world are like children that need adult supervision. Unfortunately for Egwene, the world has changed. She shows some promising signs - her speech to the Wise Ones and Windfinders and how the White Tower will earn its place was a definite step in the right direction. Overall though, the assumption that the White Tower knows best, and that she knows best within the White Tower, is her primary character flaw.

[thedragonreformed]

I should have been clearer. I was referring to the usage of choedan kal and not the cleansing itself. Using the CK was considered to be madness. It was felt that Rand would break the world. I am getting a sense of deja vu here.

I don't remember any of the Aes Sedai ever taking the position that the Choedan Kal should never be used. It was Rand himself who decided the things were too dangerous and destroyed the male one.

Winter's Heart, Chapter 35 - "With the Choedan Kal"

 

Add Nynaeve, Elayne, Cadsuane and Perrin to the list of people who didn't think it is completely insane.

Perrin's support is basically irrelevant, though, since he doesn't really have any particular knowledge of this and doesn't know anything about the One Power. Nynaeve, Elayne, and Cadsuane all have way more reason than Egwene does to have faith in him; Elayne can sense his transformation and Nynaeve and Cadsuane have seen him afterwards. And none of them are exactly jumping for joy at the idea either.

Oh I see, Perrin's support is irrelevant - because he does not have any particular knowledge of the seals? Of what breaking them would do to the world? Hah!

 

Except for ToM Rand, NO ONE has any idea about the seals. Oh sure, they know that the discs are "focal points" for the seals, but thats about it. Which, by the way, Perrin is also aware of. And no one, except Rand again, knows what will happen when the seals are broken. Egwene knows only as much as Perrin. If you want to disregard Perrin's support because he has no particular knowledge, you may want to dismiss Egwene's opposition also as irrelevant.

 

Regardless, the fact that some people agree with him doesn't make it ipso facto outrageous for anyone to disagree with him. Especially when his idea is so facially nuts.

I was responding to your factually incorrect claim that apart from Rand and Min, every one else thinks breaking the seals is insane.

 

And once again, she is entitled to think that it is crazy. But after talking to Elayne and Nynaeve, she did not for a minute think, "there may be more to this than what I thought". She dismisses Nynaeve's statement saying she has been with Rand for too long. She thinks she is right and everyone who disagrees with her is wrong or has been manipulated with. You dont like arrogance being associated with Egwene? How about immaturity (both as a person and a leader), lack of wisdom, woolheadedness?

[TheAngryDruid]

 

Egwene is Aes Sedai. Her character arc has taken her to the place of where the average Aes Sedai was at the start of the series. She believes that the White Tower is the world's first, last, and best line of defense against the Shadow; she believes that the White Tower is collectively the wisest group of people in the world, and that the rest of the world are like children that need adult supervision. Unfortunately for Egwene, the world has changed. She shows some promising signs - her speech to the Wise Ones and Windfinders and how the White Tower will earn its place was a definite step in the right direction. Overall though, the assumption that the White Tower knows best, and that she knows best within the White Tower, is her primary character flaw.

 

What a load of hogwash. Have you perhaps, read WoT? Or ToM? Look, Egwene certainly has her faults, but a steadfast belief that AS know best isn't one of them. She KNOWS it isn't true, as she's spent time with the Aiel. That's the whole point of the AS, WO, WF exchange program. Her perspective is much wider than the average AS who may be older, but has spent most of her time in the Tower. The AS that get out more (Cadsuane, Moiraine, Nynaeve) know better.

 

And to be fair, the WT probably does hold the most knowledge and most knowledgeable people in the world. Or at least the biggest group of them housed together. Yes, they have their blind spots, but that is a simple fact.

 

Now, are they as wise as LTT? No. But Rand has only been LTT for about a month, and Egwene has only seen him once in that time. He acted strange, refused to explain anything, and has since failed to help Lan, deal with the Seanchan, or the BT. He took nearly a month off before dealing with the Borderlanders, or saving Maradon. So until I know what he was doing, I'd say his wisdom may be lacking in a lot of areas too.

[maxofox]

Why do people keep saying Elayne supports Rand? From what I noticed it's quite the oppisite....

[Hopefire]

What a load of hogwash. Have you perhaps, read WoT? Or ToM? Look, Egwene certainly has her faults, but a steadfast belief that AS know best isn't one of them. She KNOWS it isn't true, as she's spent time with the Aiel. That's the whole point of the AS, WO, WF exchange program. Her perspective is much wider than the average AS who may be older, but has spent most of her time in the Tower. The AS that get out more (Cadsuane, Moiraine, Nynaeve) know better.

 

And to be fair, the WT probably does hold the most knowledge and most knowledgeable people in the world. Or at least the biggest group of them housed together. Yes, they have their blind spots, but that is a simple fact.

 

I'm apparently not reading the same Wheel of Time you are at the least. In the Wheel of Time I've been reading, Egwene says things like "It is wise of the Hall to put me in charge of dealing with the Dragon Reborn - he will need a firm, familiar hand" and saying "Have you come to surrender yourself to the White Tower's guidance?" to the Dragon, thinking "She didn't want to think of what would happen if he forced her hand" after she'd gathered up the armies of the world to intimidate Rand into not breaking the seals, etc.

 

As I've said in this thread and elsewhere, the issue for me isn't Egwene believing that she's right, or Egwene thinking that Rand is crazy, or that Rand wanting to break the seals is crazy. The opinion isn't what's important. Those opinions on her part are well justified. What's important is the tenacity with which she holds her opinions.

 

She's spoken to Elayne, Nynaeve and Perrin about the seals, and has gotten an indication that they'll support Rand; at that point, it might be time to say "I think that he's probably crazy, but I'll hear him out before I take action." But, setting aside that point: how well has it gone for anyone in the series to try to control Rand? Egwene has no way of knowing the full list, but to a greater or lesser extent it includes Ishamael, Moiraine, Verin, Siuan Sanche, Lanfear, Cadsuane, the lords of Tear and Cairhein, the White Tower Aes Sedai who put Rand in a box, Semirhage, and the Dark One. The only ones who can claim any reasonable sort of success in guiding Rand's path are Moiraine (who encountered most of her success when she agreed to follow Rand), Verin (who was effectively in Rand's corner the entire time), and Cadsuane (who was really just focused on making sure Rand didn't screw himself up too badly). Conversely, Nynaeve and Min have no desire to control Rand, but they probably have more influence on Rand's actions than anyone else in series by far.

 

After everything that's occurred, that Egwene still thinks that trying to control Rand's actions is a good idea is prime face-palm material.