Rand & Egwene (Full Spoilers)

[bubbers]

I don't really care that it's really rands plan for her to gather the 1/3 of the world that he's missing, and that he's letting her gather that missing portion so that he can do, as someone else stated earlier, make his demands

 

I've been positive since the beginning that the pattern will always and forever make it right...thats what the pattern does, takes everything in and makes it add up to being a patchwork quilt that keeps on going.

 

What I do care about, since I began reading these books, is that I worried that RJ had intended these powerful women to be...

1. interesting, which they are, but not as individuals, except for the ones that change

2. powerful female leads, which just don't happen as often

 

But, at first, all he made was a bunch of women who were nearly identical and terrible people. I've been amazed at nynaves and a little of mins changing attitudes, and was amazed at moraines as well. Those characters were different than the rest and were more interesting, because they started off as something so different than our world, a world where women run things more often than not, and GREW into people with real strength.

 

anyway, egwene is still moronic, and completely wrong, she isn't being cautious, she just flat out hasn't believed in rand since before she left the two rivers. she fully expected to marry rand and become the womans circle leader or become wisdom, and either way be the secret power behind rand, the leader of the village council. Her plans haven't changed since she was about 10 years old. She hasn't changed an ounce since she was about 6 or so.

 

anyway, to all you out there saying things like "dystopian vision of the future". Avi's vision of the future was only distyopian for the ael, and only becuase they betrayed their honor and their allies, only because they broke water oaths, so to speak. Everyone else in her vision were prospering by the end, except ael, and channelers in the wetlands. Avi didn't see the seanchan as the danger, she saw her people loosing tradition, then honor because of it, as the problem.

 

and to all of you thinking that rand bowing to the seanchan would be terrible. well maybe it wouldnt be. if everyone signs the pact, it doesn't really matter if he bends knee, especially if the WT and the BT are included in the pact. The only ones who will put up a major stink will be egwene and her buddies, and rand has pretty much set her up to fail in this. we see the ael don't like it, but they go along with it. so maybe tuon will agree, but maybe not, either way if rand does bend knee, it will only expedite things.

[knutz]

We know for a fact that the Seanchan prophecies were corrupted by the Shadow.

 

I didn't know that, but I believe it's not Rand bowing that leads to the Aiel destruction. It is their inability to be peaceful.

 

To ward off Aviendha's vision, they need to come to the realisation (on their own, not bullied by Rand) that they need to return to the way of the leaf. It is their attack on the Seanchan that nullified the peace treaty that Rand set up - not the treaty itself.

[UConn2000]

 

He needs to bow to Fortuona or all will be lost.

 

Wait ... what?

 

I'm going to have to say that you interpreted that bit completely backwards. Bowing to Tuon leads to the dystopian nightmare that Avi foresaw. What he needs to do is to get her to bow to him and break the damane's chains so that the main thing he leaves behind won't be a fascist army of slavers looking for world domination.

 

Valid point, and in reguards to that, what are the possibilites that with his new found power that he breaks them. what kind of blow would that be for the Seanchan eh?

 

i am really, really looking forward to how the Seanchan angle is brought to a (hopefully satisfactory) conclusion. really, i think it's the most complex question remaining- not counting the battle with the DO itself-, but a bigger/more complicated issue than, let's say, the Black Tower.

 

he CANNOT bow. even if that in itself is not assurance of Avi's vision. I mean, at this point, Rand kneeling to anyone, is weak sauce. this applies to both the Seanchan Empress or the Aes Sedai Amyrlin. (who, ironically, are remarkably similar in many aspects).

 

yet, i would be very disappointed if the Seanchan end up as negative faction who do not contribute to the light's cause in the last battle. for that matter, if the entire Sharan continent is ignored, or is implied to be all bad, i would be mortified. it would detract from the all-consuming nature of the last battle. it would weaken the build up that it effects all of humanity, and (not counting DF's) all of humanity will have a stake in fighting the Dark.

 

I believe that Rand will bow to Tuon, just like he bowed to the Amyrlin after asking her for permission to leave. This means absolutely nothing: there's nothing wrong with showing respect to a would be ally if doing so makes that person an ally. And it doesn't mean the bow will be one of obesiance. As I previously implied, it will be like the nod of the head, almost mocking, type of bow, Rand gave Egwene in TOM.

 

As for Egwene and the big confrontation some suspect, I wouldn't be shocked if it leads to she and the whole freakin lot of the Aes Sedai bending knee to the ancient symbol once and for all. There will be very little support for Egwene once Rand arrives. First off, let's think about who is and may be there:

 

(1) The nations already represented include Mayene, Ghealdan, Illian, Tear, Andor and Carhein. Of those, we know for certain that Mayene and Ghealdan will support Rand because Perrin supports Rand. We should be as certain that Illian will support Rand because, um, Rand is the King of Illian. Tear is almost as secure. Do we really think that Darlin will oppose Rand? I don't think so. He made no more committment to Egwene than Perrin did to Elayne, i.e., he'd show up. But methinks Egwene is in for a surprise on his score. Lastly, we have Andor and Carhein. We shouldn' have to entertain any doubts there, though silly Elayne seems to require some one-on-one or at least face time with Rand on this count. Okay, fine. At the end of the day though, she isn't going to do anything to start a fight with Rand.

 

(2) The non-nation based armies include Perrin's forces, the Aeil, the Farmer's Army, and the Tower's Army. Okay, give Egwene Gareth Bryne's not inconsiderable forces. Still, we know Perrin backs Rand, We also know the Aeil back Rand, Egwene's meetings with the Wise One's be damned. The Wise Ones may disagree with Rand, but they follow the Car'a'can. They ain't going to lose their chance to expatiate their ancestors' toh. As for the Farmer's Army, well, we can consider them to be in Rand's pocket too. Gawyn thinks Rand ordered them there. More likely they have come based on Rand's ta'veren pull. They are regular dudes showing up to follow the Dragon into the Last Battle. So, again, no support beyond her personal army for the poor rube who thinks she's capable of playing chess with the Creator's Champion.

 

(3) Of those who might show up, I would consider the Borderlanders and Arad Domane? If the Borderlanders do come, it'll be because they swore to Rand. So.....more support for Rand. If Rodel Ituralde and whomever the King is come with a contingent of Domani, well, more support for Rand. He saved the King and Bandar Eban, afterall, even if it took a while.

 

At the end of the day, there are going to be an overwhelming number of armies and nations there that either support Rand outright or are inclined to support Rand once he opens his mouth. Throw in the combined ta'veren'ness of Rand and Perrin, and whatch out Egwene. She will have boxed the White Tower in in one fell swoop: surrounded by the armies of the nations who follow Rand to the Last Battle. Her only choice to remain relevant will be the choice Rand gave the Borderlanders: follow Rand or allow others to fight in your stead. Given that choice, I think she might be acceding to some terms on behalf of the White Tower. Hope she doesn't choke on them.

[knutz]

 

He needs to bow to Fortuona or all will be lost.

 

Wait ... what?

 

I'm going to have to say that you interpreted that bit completely backwards. Bowing to Tuon leads to the dystopian nightmare that Avi foresaw. What he needs to do is to get her to bow to him and break the damane's chains so that the main thing he leaves behind won't be a fascist army of slavers looking for world domination.

 

Valid point, and in reguards to that, what are the possibilites that with his new found power that he breaks them. what kind of blow would that be for the Seanchan eh?

 

i am really, really looking forward to how the Seanchan angle is brought to a (hopefully satisfactory) conclusion. really, i think it's the most complex question remaining- not counting the battle with the DO itself-, but a bigger/more complicated issue than, let's say, the Black Tower.

 

he CANNOT bow. even if that in itself is not assurance of Avi's vision. I mean, at this point, Rand kneeling to anyone, is weak sauce. this applies to both the Seanchan Empress or the Aes Sedai Amyrlin. (who, ironically, are remarkably similar in many aspects).

 

yet, i would be very disappointed if the Seanchan end up as negative faction who do not contribute to the light's cause in the last battle. for that matter, if the entire Sharan continent is ignored, or is implied to be all bad, i would be mortified. it would detract from the all-consuming nature of the last battle. it would weaken the build up that it effects all of humanity, and (not counting DF's) all of humanity will have a stake in fighting the Dark.

 

I believe that Rand will bow to Tuon, just like he bowed to the Amyrlin after asking her for permission to leave. This means absolutely nothing: there's nothing wrong with showing respect to a would be ally if doing so makes that person an ally. And it doesn't mean the bow will be one of obesiance. As I previously implied, it will be like the nod of the head, almost mocking, type of bow, Rand gave Egwene in TOM.

 

As for Egwene and the big confrontation some suspect, I wouldn't be shocked if it leads to she and the whole freakin lot of the Aes Sedai bending knee to the ancient symbol once and for all. There will be very little support for Egwene once Rand arrives. First off, let's think about who is and may be there:

 

(1) The nations already represented include Mayene, Ghealdan, Illian, Tear, Andor and Carhein. Of those, we know for certain that Mayene and Ghealdan will support Rand because Perrin supports Rand. We should be as certain that Illian will support Rand because, um, Rand is the King of Illian. Tear is almost as secure. Do we really think that Darlin will oppose Rand? I don't think so. He made no more committment to Egwene than Perrin did to Elayne, i.e., he'd show up. But methinks Egwene is in for a surprise on his score. Lastly, we have Andor and Carhein. We shouldn' have to entertain any doubts there, though silly Elayne seems to require some one-on-one or at least face time with Rand on this count. Okay, fine. At the end of the day though, she isn't going to do anything to start a fight with Rand.

 

(2) The non-nation based armies include Perrin's forces, the Aeil, the Farmer's Army, and the Tower's Army. Okay, give Egwene Gareth Bryne's not inconsiderable forces. Still, we know Perrin backs Rand, We also know the Aeil back Rand, Egwene's meetings with the Wise One's be damned. The Wise Ones may disagree with Rand, but they follow the Car'a'can. They ain't going to lose their chance to expatiate their ancestors' toh. As for the Farmer's Army, well, we can consider them to be in Rand's pocket too. Gawyn thinks Rand ordered them there. More likely they have come based on Rand's ta'veren pull. They are regular dudes showing up to follow the Dragon into the Last Battle. So, again, no support beyond her personal army for the poor rube who thinks she's capable of playing chess with the Creator's Champion.

 

(3) Of those who might show up, I would consider the Borderlanders and Arad Domane? If the Borderlanders do come, it'll be because they swore to Rand. So.....more support for Rand. If Rodel Ituralde and whomever the King is come with a contingent of Domani, well, more support for Rand. He saved the King and Bandar Eban, afterall, even if it took a while.

 

At the end of the day, there are going to be an overwhelming number of armies and nations there that either support Rand outright or are inclined to support Rand once he opens his mouth. Throw in the combined ta'veren'ness of Rand and Perrin, and whatch out Egwene. She will have boxed the White Tower in in one fell swoop: surrounded by the armies of the nations who follow Rand to the Last Battle. Her only choice to remain relevant will be the choice Rand gave the Borderlanders: follow Rand or allow others to fight in your stead. Given that choice, I think she might be acceding to some terms on behalf of the White Tower. Hope she doesn't choke on them.

 

And then Mat will turn up. Morraine will say her piece and Mat will flip a coin. It'll come up heads and Rand will say "See! I told you so!". They will have no other option but to follow the coin.

[randsc]

"I am wise, the heir of 3000 years of White Tower experience. I am not merely Egwene al_Vere, I am the Amyrlin Seat. You will submit yourself to my guidance, or I will start a civil war among the forces of good on the very eve of the Last Battle."

 

Indefensible.

 

You say that her fear of Rand's plan isn't unreasonable? OK. I don't know that I agree, but OK.

 

But her plan for disuading Rand is insane. Absolutely insane.

 

The most charitable possible explanation is that she is still somehow under the influenece of those idiotic head massages.

 

If not, there can be no excuse for her actions. She needs to be broken. If not killed.

 

There are people here who defend Elayne's idiotic threat to execute Perrin on the grounds that Perrin's actions, however well intentioned, constitute treason to Andor.

 

Egwene's actions constitute treason to the Light itself.

[FarShainMael]

And then Mat will turn up. Morraine will say her piece and Mat will flip a coin. It'll come up heads and Rand will say "See! I told you so!". They will have no other option but to follow the coin.

 

IIRC, somewhere in the journey from Ebou Dar, Mat picks up a Seanchan coin. This had a picture of the Empress on one side and 'some kind of chair' on the other*. Perhaps that'll be the one he uses, it comes up showing Crystal Throne, and Rand bends down to pick it up.. and Fortuona faints.

 

(JK, of course!!)

 

*It's in WH 18: 'a forbidding woman's face on one side and some sort of heavy chair on the other'

[randsc]

It always struck me as strange that the face of the Empress would appear on Seanchan coins, given their emphasis on not allowing commoners to gaze upon the royalty.

[TheAngryDruid]

Kind of a minor point, but what ever happened to Rand's Bargain with the Sea Folk? Isn't he supposed to have a SF ambassador with him at all times?

 

I didn't see hide nor hair of one, even after Buddha Rand's triumphant return.

 

With nearly every nation gathered at the FoM (except Seanchan controlled lands), the SF nation seems oddly absent.

[PatsNats28]

Kind of a minor point, but what ever happened to Rand's Bargain with the Sea Folk? Isn't he supposed to have a SF ambassador with him at all times?

 

I didn't see hide nor hair of one, even after Buddha Rand's triumphant return.

 

With nearly every nation gathered at the FoM (except Seanchan controlled lands), the SF nation seems oddly absent.

 

No one likes them anyway ;)

 

When Rand went to Bandar Eban the 2nd time, he tells them that he'll take Harine, and they freak out, so yeah.

[ajfurst]

Kind of a minor point, but what ever happened to Rand's Bargain with the Sea Folk? Isn't he supposed to have a SF ambassador with him at all times?

 

I didn't see hide nor hair of one, even after Buddha Rand's triumphant return.

 

With nearly every nation gathered at the FoM (except Seanchan controlled lands), the SF nation seems oddly absent.

So I wasn't the only one to notice Harine was forgotten about. Given Rand's apologise to everyone under the sun routine in TOM, why wasn't there one to Harine and her back at his side, as he promised for their bargain? Did BS forget altogether about Harine? Ok, she may have gone off in a huff when Dark Rand left at the end of TGS, but surely this would have gotten at least a mention if it had? After all the bit about Rand apologising to the Maidens for doing exactly the same thing - going off without them against his promise.

[knutz]

I thought Harine & the rest didn't want to hang out anymore? I'll have to read the last few books again to check.

[knutz]

We know for a fact that the Seanchan prophecies were corrupted by the Shadow.

 

I think I missed this revelation. Is it in the glossary?

[Byzantine279]

I would laugh if Rand ended up bowing to the Crystal thrown in effigy, like, as mentioned above, picking up a coin. It would be hilarious to see him explain to Fortuna when she tried to make him bow... "Well, I just bowed to the throne, I think, I did bend over and pick the coin up and prophecy rarely means what you think..."

[Sharaman]

I would laugh if Rand ended up bowing to the Crystal thrown in effigy, like, as mentioned above, picking up a coin. It would be hilarious to see him explain to Fortuna when she tried to make him bow... "Well, I just bowed to the throne, I think, I did bend over and pick the coin up and prophecy rarely means what you think..."

He's just straightened his coat lapels and is tying his shoelaces as Fortuona Gates in, sitting on Suffa's back, for their momentous meeting---

[FarShainMael]

I doubt he would break the seals, then go and do other stuff. It would be just too risky, maybe the DO can't just breakout, however their not sure he can't.

 

Recall that when the Bore was first drilled, before it was sealed, the DO had a channel through to the world.. and It did not use it. LTT and his 100 Companions had time to make seals and use them. It seems likely to me that Rand will have enough time to at least get to SG, if he breaks them on the fields of Merrilor before the assembled armies.

[f3llyn]

We know for a fact that the Seanchan prophecies were corrupted by the Shadow.

 

I think I missed this revelation. Is it in the glossary?

At one point Ishmael tells Rand that he was there when Artur Hawkwing sent his son across the oceans, and when he died as well. He said he told him to deny the aid of Aes Sedai that could have healed him, etc. I forget what book it took place in.

 

Anyways, I think it's that scene that most are referring to when they say Seanchan prophecies are tainted by the shadow. Following the line of reason that since Ishmael was advising/manipulating Hawkwing, he would have followed Luthair across the ocean and manipulated him as well.

[Jeangray]

BTW, it occurred to me that the number 23 (stars in Egwene's vision) fits the full Hall + Keeper + Amyrlin.

 

And yes, it seems very likely that Ishamael expertly crafted the Seanchan to backstab the forces of Light before TG. Their mythology of Return and timing of it, their prophecies conflicting with those of Randland, etc. all point in that direction.

Also, since nobody in Randland knew what the Crystal Throne was, they had no reason to try to alter the prophecies, while the reverse is true of "binding of nine moons" prophecy. Also, Randland prophecies don't aggrandize any nation, while the Seanchan ones do - themselves, of course.

[capuga]

We know for a fact that the Seanchan prophecies were corrupted by the Shadow.

 

I think I missed this revelation. Is it in the glossary?

At one point Ishmael tells Rand that he was there when Artur Hawkwing sent his son across the oceans, and when he died as well. He said he told him to deny the aid of Aes Sedai that could have healed him, etc. I forget what book it took place in.

 

Anyways, I think it's that scene that most are referring to when they say Seanchan prophecies are tainted by the shadow. Following the line of reason that since Ishmael was advising/manipulating Hawkwing, he would have followed Luthair across the ocean and manipulated him as well.

 

More telling was the Seanchan thinking about their prophesies. The ones in Randland matched the ones in Seanchan before Luthair brought the "correct" copy with him. So in all off Randland and Seanchan the only "correct" copy of the prophesies (the one that says Rand must bow to the Crystal Throne) was the one that Luthair brought with him - and Luthair was sent to Seanchan through Ishy's advise.

[knutz]

BTW, it occurred to me that the number 23 (stars in Egwene's vision) fits the full Hall + Keeper + Amyrlin.

 

And yes, it seems very likely that Ishamael expertly crafted the Seanchan to backstab the forces of Light before TG. Their mythology of Return and timing of it, their prophecies conflicting with those of Randland, etc. all point in that direction.

Also, since nobody in Randland knew what the Crystal Throne was, they had no reason to try to alter the prophecies, while the reverse is true of "binding of nine moons" prophecy. Also, Randland prophecies don't aggrandize any nation, while the Seanchan ones do - themselves, of course.

I'd just like to point out that no quote in the books has ever specifically said that the "Dragon" would bind the nine moons to him. Since the trickster/fox/gambler/son of battles has already done this - might we not assume that the Aes Sedai have it wrong?

 

Also, the Randland prophecies - not altogether reliable. Most old Randland books are torn, missing pages, unreadable. The Seanchan seem to be the best culture when it comes to preserving artefacts and such.

More likely then that the Seanchan copy is correct - or that Randland's is too - it just lost a page 300 years ago.

[capuga]

BTW, it occurred to me that the number 23 (stars in Egwene's vision) fits the full Hall + Keeper + Amyrlin.

 

And yes, it seems very likely that Ishamael expertly crafted the Seanchan to backstab the forces of Light before TG. Their mythology of Return and timing of it, their prophecies conflicting with those of Randland, etc. all point in that direction.

Also, since nobody in Randland knew what the Crystal Throne was, they had no reason to try to alter the prophecies, while the reverse is true of "binding of nine moons" prophecy. Also, Randland prophecies don't aggrandize any nation, while the Seanchan ones do - themselves, of course.

I'd just like to point out that no quote in the books has ever specifically said that the "Dragon" would bind the nine moons to him. Since the trickster/fox/gambler/son of battles has already done this - might we not assume that the Aes Sedai have it wrong?

 

Also, the Randland prophecies - not altogether reliable. Most old Randland books are torn, missing pages, unreadable. The Seanchan seem to be the best culture when it comes to preserving artefacts and such.

More likely then that the Seanchan copy is correct - or that Randland's is too - it just lost a page 300 years ago.

 

You think the most likely event is that out of all the copies of the Dragon prophesies in Randland and Seanchan (pre-Luthair) the copy that Luthair brought with him (which is the only copy in the world that mentions tDR kneeling to the Chrystal Throne) is the correct one? So all the copies in the world except Luthair's (whose trip to Seanchan was influenced by Ishy) are wrong but his one copy is correct?

[CoonDawg]

People keep concentrating on what we think Rand will do, but in the end, it's what MOIRAINE does that will decide everything.

 

I'm on the fence as to what she'll say. She has huge influence over Rand; being the first Aes Sedai to respect him being the main reason. I can see her taking either side. She may present Rand a better option than simply breaking the seals, a way to make new ones without ever releasing the Dark One. This will give him pause to pursue her route. Or, maybe Moiraine will say that Rand's idea is brilliant, and Egwene will be shut up soundly.

 

Either way, however, Egwene isn't going to "talk him out of it". She's going to be eating some serious crow regardless. Her losing the Amyrlin seat won't happen, not after spending 5 books of her gaining control of it. However, she's going to do some very fast growing up after the meeting, I assure you.

[Durinax]

I am not worried about egwene talking him out of it. what I am worried about would be egwene talking the leaders of the armies out of not following rand, thus removing the bulk of his armies, and pinning em all in the south (I think) while trollocs are sweeping the lands

[CoonDawg]

I am not worried about egwene talking him out of it. what I am worried about would be egwene talking the leaders of the armies out of not following rand, thus removing the bulk of his armies, and pinning em all in the south (I think) while trollocs are sweeping the lands

 

I hope she tries. Two reasons:

 

1) It won't work. Rand can bend the pattern to such a degree, I bet it would permit him time-travel if it was absolutely necessary. If Rand (or at least, the Pattern) wants those nations to be bound to him, it's going to happen.

2) It will instantly thrust Egwene (and by extension the White Tower) against the Dragon, and she'll be driven out and/or killed. This is pretty unlikely, however, since in Aviendha's dream, the WT was still ticking for a couple hundred years after the Last Battle, hinting that they were an ally. If they went against Rand, they would be leveled in .07 seconds.

[ranjitb]

Except, one of the "commandments" of WoT seems to be Rand is always wrong, Egwene is always right.

No doubt, in the 5 or 10 pages Rand actually appears in (if even that) he will be made to see all the "mistakes he has made", while Moirane will take one look at Eggy, and say "You have done very well...." or some such.

[WhiskyJack]

I am not worried about egwene talking him out of it. what I am worried about would be egwene talking the leaders of the armies out of not following rand, thus removing the bulk of his armies, and pinning em all in the south (I think) while trollocs are sweeping the lands

 

If Rand effect on WT sitters is any clue, Eqwene will fail to convince even her cat in Rand's presence.