Rand & Egwene (Full Spoilers)

[TheAngryDruid]

<snip>

ok, got a little silly there...

 

Not really.

 

There are quite a few important things happening near simultaneously.

 

Fortuona *may* be attacking Tar Valon again.

Shadowspawn are invading Caemlyn.

Lan is charging into 150,000 Trollocs etc. at Tarwin's Gap.

Mat, Thom, and Moiraine are making their way back from the Tower of Ghenjei.

 

A whole lot of folks who desperately need to be elsewhere are hanging out in a field somewhere.

 

It's unlikely that there will be time for any prolonged confrontation at Merrilor.

 

It's likely to be, "WHAT??? OK, You go here. You go there. You guys do this. You guys do that." By the time the initial dust settles, Rand will have made his leadership a fait accompli.

 

Agreed. And don't forget.

 

1) There is an issue at the Black Tower that needs resolved. Could this be the long foreshadowed 2nd time Perrin saves Rand?

2) From the epilogue, Heeth Tower and Kandor appear in bad shape, and Arafel may be in similar perril. Forces will be needed there as well.

 

Some will have to go to the BT (Rand will need those Asha'man for the battles to come, or at least the light will).

Some will have to go to Shayol Ghul.

Some may have to go back to help rescue Caemlyn and the WT (some Seanchan woman: (Egeanin) still has to save Egwene. Most likely the Band, Elayne's forces, and most of Egwene's.

Some will have to go to the Borderlands (Maradon, Tarwin's Gap & Lan, and what's left of Kandor and Arafel). Most likely the Borderlanders, Bashere, and Ituralde and Nynaeve and her force to the Gap.

 

One thing I was disappointed with, we never got to see what happened to Renald Fanwar and his group gathering to meet the storm. Where are they? Not with Lan. Not with Ituralde in Maradon. Perhaps they helped to throw back the tide in Arafel or Kandor?

[randsc]

<snip>

ok, got a little silly there...

 

Not really.

 

There are quite a few important things happening near simultaneously.

 

Fortuona *may* be attacking Tar Valon again.

Shadowspawn are invading Caemlyn.

Lan is charging into 150,000 Trollocs etc. at Tarwin's Gap.

Mat, Thom, and Moiraine are making their way back from the Tower of Ghenjei.

 

A whole lot of folks who desperately need to be elsewhere are hanging out in a field somewhere.

 

It's unlikely that there will be time for any prolonged confrontation at Merrilor.

 

It's likely to be, "WHAT??? OK, You go here. You go there. You guys do this. You guys do that." By the time the initial dust settles, Rand will have made his leadership a fait accompli.

 

Agreed. And don't forget.

 

1) There is an issue at the Black Tower that needs resolved. Could this be the long foreshadowed 2nd time Perrin saves Rand?

2) From the epilogue, Heeth Tower and Kandor appear in bad shape, and Arafel may be in similar perril. Forces will be needed there as well.

 

Some will have to go to the BT (Rand will need those Asha'man for the battles to come, or at least the light will).

Some will have to go to Shayol Ghul.

Some may have to go back to help rescue Caemlyn and the WT (some Seanchan woman: (Egeanin) still has to save Egwene. Most likely the Band, Elayne's forces, and most of Egwene's.

Some will have to go to the Borderlands (Maradon, Tarwin's Gap & Lan, and what's left of Kandor and Arafel). Most likely the Borderlanders, Bashere, and Ituralde and Nynaeve and her force to the Gap.

 

One thing I was disappointed with, we never got to see what happened to Renald Fanwar and his group gathering to meet the storm. Where are they? Not with Lan. Not with Ituralde in Maradon. Perhaps they helped to throw back the tide in Arafel or Kandor?

 

 

You know, I don't think all of those rescue missions are possible, necessary, or even desirable.

 

Firefighters will tell you that sometimes the best way to save people in a burning building isn't to go searching for them. Sometimes the best way is to put out the fire.

 

The best way to save the Borderlands and Caemlyn from the trollocs? Win the Last Battle.

[TheAngryDruid]

<snip>

ok, got a little silly there...

 

Not really.

 

There are quite a few important things happening near simultaneously.

 

Fortuona *may* be attacking Tar Valon again.

Shadowspawn are invading Caemlyn.

Lan is charging into 150,000 Trollocs etc. at Tarwin's Gap.

Mat, Thom, and Moiraine are making their way back from the Tower of Ghenjei.

 

A whole lot of folks who desperately need to be elsewhere are hanging out in a field somewhere.

 

It's unlikely that there will be time for any prolonged confrontation at Merrilor.

 

It's likely to be, "WHAT??? OK, You go here. You go there. You guys do this. You guys do that." By the time the initial dust settles, Rand will have made his leadership a fait accompli.

 

Agreed. And don't forget.

 

1) There is an issue at the Black Tower that needs resolved. Could this be the long foreshadowed 2nd time Perrin saves Rand?

2) From the epilogue, Heeth Tower and Kandor appear in bad shape, and Arafel may be in similar perril. Forces will be needed there as well.

 

Some will have to go to the BT (Rand will need those Asha'man for the battles to come, or at least the light will).

Some will have to go to Shayol Ghul.

Some may have to go back to help rescue Caemlyn and the WT (some Seanchan woman: (Egeanin) still has to save Egwene. Most likely the Band, Elayne's forces, and most of Egwene's.

Some will have to go to the Borderlands (Maradon, Tarwin's Gap & Lan, and what's left of Kandor and Arafel). Most likely the Borderlanders, Bashere, and Ituralde and Nynaeve and her force to the Gap.

 

One thing I was disappointed with, we never got to see what happened to Renald Fanwar and his group gathering to meet the storm. Where are they? Not with Lan. Not with Ituralde in Maradon. Perhaps they helped to throw back the tide in Arafel or Kandor?

 

 

You know, I don't think all of those rescue missions are possible, necessary, or even desirable.

 

Firefighters will tell you that sometimes the best way to save people in a burning building isn't to go searching for them. Sometimes the best way is to put out the fire.

 

The best way to save the Borderlands and Caemlyn from the trollocs? Win the Last Battle.

 

I used to work with Firefighters, and that isn't what they say at all. Especially in regards to people inside the fire. You have to get them out, or they are dead.

 

Regarding the situation in Caemlyn, if the Shadow gets those Dragons, that is bad. If the BT turns into hundreds of DF Asha'man and bonded 13x13 sisters (whether 6 or more), that is bad for the Light. If Lan gets slaughtered at Tarwin's Gap and Trollocs pour south (and in Saldaea, Kandor, and Arafel) that is bad for the light. If the Seanchan sack the WT when the Borderlands need AS aid, that is bad.

 

Rand is going to SG to break the seals and (presumably) try to seal the Bore back up. Those armies won't be needed there, in the main, though some channelers likely will be, with some guards. The rest of those armies will need to deal with the more mundane threats. Rand has already said as much to Bashere.

[Bob T Dwarf]

So, I think that is: 51 + 20 + 8 + 5 = 83. Some are in Cairhien (Samitsu, Sashelle), some with Perin (Masuri, Seonid), but still, he does have plenty to choose from).

 

 

You're taking all of the Aes Sedai that are out of the Tower for various reasons ( except the thirteen with the Borderlanders and the three AS and two AM with Perrin ) and assigning them to Rand. The only ones we know for sure are with Rand is Cadsuane's group which is nothing like eighty-three. The number in Cairhien and those in Caemlyn are more than just a couple each place. Then there's Logain's unknown locale and those that are with him, again actual number unknown, but certain to include those he Bonded himself and those Bonded by those Asha'man with him.

 

Then there's that initial draft of Asha'man that Rand assigned to Ituralde when he sent him to Saldaea back in The Gathering Storm. Somebody mentioned one hundred. Where did he get them? He has not been near the Black Tower in forever.

 

My point is that Aes Sedai fighters and Asha'man seem to be dropping out of the sky. Seems like Rand just snaps his fingers and they magically appear. In "large numbers."

 

I don't object to that per se. I DO object to it without the supporting backstory.

[Jhirrad]

I think the Black Ajah and Morridin are more the cause for the bad mindset of the Aes Sedai and the World in general. Doing Darkone Propaganda and spreading Lies, twisting the knowledge of history, to make sure that the Dragon Reborn and others on the side of the Light have it as hard as possible. The Legends that influence the mindset of the People in Randland, have made it really hard. For example the Kinslayer part of the Legend of Lewis Therin only Morridin could have spread that tale and it made it really hard for Rand to accept being the Dragon Reborn and the reincarnation of Lewis Therin.

I think the Dark Ajah have been working since there start to influence the White Tower and set up Traditions that favor them. For example the Tradition that speaking and thinking about a possible Black Ajah is a total anathema under Aes Sedai. I also see the Tests for raising in the Tower favoring them greatly, because of their driving Emotion being a Lust for Power. Candidates for the Black Ajah are certain to succeed. Actually anyone who fails those Tests would automatically be unsuited for the Black Ajah, i suspect this is one of the reasons that we have not seen any Black Kinswomen. The Black Ahja can also use those Tests to get rid of unwanted Candidates. Novices and Accepted who are bothering or a threat, can be removed if the overseers of the Test are from the Dark Ajah. Either by tweaking the TA or just by killing them right there and then, removing the body and saying that they did not come out.

If one sees how hard it was for Rand to come clear on himself being the Dragon Reborn and even more the Reincarnation of Lewis Therin, then one can understand why it will take the Tower some time.

Thats why i am glad Nynaeve dared to defy the Test. She made Egwene and i think some of the testers who voted for her Think. Egewene did not like what she heard, but i think she was troubled about it, because she new Nynaeve was right.

 

 

I disagree. While much of their beliefs, traditions and knowledge is corrupted. They are still suited to give advice, and that is the Guidance i think Egwene means to give. They are suited for that Role because they have knowledgeable, intelligent and wise(at least to some extent) women amongst them. They are also "servants of all"(well sadly not all of them are thus suited but some are, Moraine, Cadsuane, Verin, Nynaeve, Siuan and Egwene). Not bond to a nation or ethnic group like the Wiseones or Windfinders. Interestingly many WoT fans like to think of some(well actually most or even all) of the mentioned Ase Sedai who have shown the needed Qualities and who have already given very needed Guidance to Rand as totally separate of the rest of the Aes Sedai that are stumbling about.

Rand has also been somewhat of an Enigma to many of the Aes Sedai who dealt with Rand and as mat would phrase it a Royal Pain in the Ass. He is more knowledgeable, intelligent and politically deft than they would await from his upbringing. Sadly while they coul adjust to that he has also been unable to take advise from almost anyone and know he feels that he does not even have the time to do so. It would not have hurt him if he would have arranged a private meeting with Egwene to talk some things over properly, sooner than a Months time away.

 

If things were as you say then that would be fine. But there is only one example in this series of Aes Sedai actually agreeing to merely advise rather than push and prod and tell Rand where to go, what to do and how to do it: Moraine after she offers to swear to Rand. From that point, she tries to advise him, help him with his plans and reaching his goals, which he knows better than anyone. Everyone else (Aes Sedai) sees 'guiding' as being another way of saying they will be the real power and decision maker behind the throne. Remember that this is how Aes Sedai have essentially maintained their power over the centuries. Also, it's interesting that this is the Aes Sedai way of doing things, when we also see that this is the Black Ajah way of doing things. The Blacks never wanted to be Amyrlin, they would take the spot as Keeper and be the real power, guiding and manipulating things in whatever manner they see fit. That's what Aes Sedai (non-Black Ajah) have been doing with rulers for centuries, and that's what Egwene wants when she asks if Rand will accept the 'guidance of the White Tower'. They don't want to advise and counsel him. They want him to do what he's told, much like what Cadsuane did for the majority of her time in this series. And one of the reasons that she deserved her exile IMO. An advisor gives advice and guidance, and the ruler then has to choose to follow that or not. But that is the choice of the ruler, and a real advisor doesn't try and manipulate you to the point that you will always follow their counsel. That's what Aes Sedai do - either manipulate or bully to get their way. Which is what they want to continue doing with Rand. Their primary interest is in the maintenance of their White Tower and their own power, rather than the good of the world.

[randsc]

<snip>

ok, got a little silly there...

 

Not really.

 

There are quite a few important things happening near simultaneously.

 

Fortuona *may* be attacking Tar Valon again.

Shadowspawn are invading Caemlyn.

Lan is charging into 150,000 Trollocs etc. at Tarwin's Gap.

Mat, Thom, and Moiraine are making their way back from the Tower of Ghenjei.

 

A whole lot of folks who desperately need to be elsewhere are hanging out in a field somewhere.

 

It's unlikely that there will be time for any prolonged confrontation at Merrilor.

 

It's likely to be, "WHAT??? OK, You go here. You go there. You guys do this. You guys do that." By the time the initial dust settles, Rand will have made his leadership a fait accompli.

 

Agreed. And don't forget.

 

1) There is an issue at the Black Tower that needs resolved. Could this be the long foreshadowed 2nd time Perrin saves Rand?

2) From the epilogue, Heeth Tower and Kandor appear in bad shape, and Arafel may be in similar perril. Forces will be needed there as well.

 

Some will have to go to the BT (Rand will need those Asha'man for the battles to come, or at least the light will).

Some will have to go to Shayol Ghul.

Some may have to go back to help rescue Caemlyn and the WT (some Seanchan woman: (Egeanin) still has to save Egwene. Most likely the Band, Elayne's forces, and most of Egwene's.

Some will have to go to the Borderlands (Maradon, Tarwin's Gap & Lan, and what's left of Kandor and Arafel). Most likely the Borderlanders, Bashere, and Ituralde and Nynaeve and her force to the Gap.

 

One thing I was disappointed with, we never got to see what happened to Renald Fanwar and his group gathering to meet the storm. Where are they? Not with Lan. Not with Ituralde in Maradon. Perhaps they helped to throw back the tide in Arafel or Kandor?

 

 

You know, I don't think all of those rescue missions are possible, necessary, or even desirable.

 

Firefighters will tell you that sometimes the best way to save people in a burning building isn't to go searching for them. Sometimes the best way is to put out the fire.

 

The best way to save the Borderlands and Caemlyn from the trollocs? Win the Last Battle.

 

I used to work with Firefighters, and that isn't what they say at all. Especially in regards to people inside the fire. You have to get them out, or they are dead.

 

Regarding the situation in Caemlyn, if the Shadow gets those Dragons, that is bad. If the BT turns into hundreds of DF Asha'man and bonded 13x13 sisters (whether 6 or more), that is bad for the Light. If Lan gets slaughtered at Tarwin's Gap and Trollocs pour south (and in Saldaea, Kandor, and Arafel) that is bad for the light. If the Seanchan sack the WT when the Borderlands need AS aid, that is bad.

 

Rand is going to SG to break the seals and (presumably) try to seal the Bore back up. Those armies won't be needed there, in the main, though some channelers likely will be, with some guards. The rest of those armies will need to deal with the more mundane threats. Rand has already said as much to Bashere.

 

 

Hey, wanna guess what I do for a living?

[Guest Shocklance]

1st post here,

 

Didn't see this brought up anywhere, but it seems Rand definitely survives the last battle, as Avi isn't pregnant yet but her future visions showed her and Rand's descendants. Furthermore in one of Avi's future visions they talk about the 3 different Dragon bloodlines, though 2 have been cut off. Certainly implies that Rand has children with both Avi and Min, which he certainly doesn't seem to have time for before TLB.

[capuga]

1st post here,

 

Didn't see this brought up anywhere, but it seems Rand definitely survives the last battle, as Avi isn't pregnant yet but her future visions showed her and Rand's descendants. Furthermore in one of Avi's future visions they talk about the 3 different Dragon bloodlines, though 2 have been cut off. Certainly implies that Rand has children with both Avi and Min, which he certainly doesn't seem to have time for before TLB.

 

No reason he can't get them pregnant before the LB and die before they are born. I guess my question is - Will Rand immediately launch his assault on the Dark One as soon as he breaks the seals (which would be the next day as of the end of ToM - which would certainly make it unlikely he could get Aviendha pregnant before that) or will he break the seals and then there will be a little time before his final confrontation with the Dark One. The latter seems more likely to me since there seems to be a lot that still needs to happen with Rand for it to happen in one day.

[Ahaz Flagg]

1st post here,

 

Didn't see this brought up anywhere, but it seems Rand definitely survives the last battle, as Avi isn't pregnant yet but her future visions showed her and Rand's descendants. Furthermore in one of Avi's future visions they talk about the 3 different Dragon bloodlines, though 2 have been cut off. Certainly implies that Rand has children with both Avi and Min, which he certainly doesn't seem to have time for before TLB.

There are 2 sperate versions of Rand living, Nicola and Egwene, Egewene's was a dream, and Nicola's was fortelling. It is pretty certina that Rand lives in some form. the question is in which body does he live.

 

Egwene is Aes Sedai to the core,the only person i dislike more then here is Falie, and Perrin is real close to them. They are so selfish it is not even funny.

 

I cannot see how anyone cannot see how Rand manipualted her, this was obvious even before Rand mentioned it. Egwene needs to be humbled big time, she is now worse then Elayne in arrogance, i did not think it was possible to be worse then her!!!

[Jhirrad]

1st post here,

 

Didn't see this brought up anywhere, but it seems Rand definitely survives the last battle, as Avi isn't pregnant yet but her future visions showed her and Rand's descendants. Furthermore in one of Avi's future visions they talk about the 3 different Dragon bloodlines, though 2 have been cut off. Certainly implies that Rand has children with both Avi and Min, which he certainly doesn't seem to have time for before TLB.

 

No reason he can't get them pregnant before the LB and die before they are born. I guess my question is - Will Rand immediately launch his assault on the Dark One as soon as he breaks the seals (which would be the next day as of the end of ToM - which would certainly make it unlikely he could get Aviendha pregnant before that) or will he break the seals and then there will be a little time before his final confrontation with the Dark One. The latter seems more likely to me since there seems to be a lot that still needs to happen with Rand for it to happen in one day.

 

You're definitely right in saying that he could get them pregnant before Tarmon Gaidon. However, one thing which people are forgetting about when they talk about Min's viewings. It was brought up quite prominently in TGS as a matter of fact, by Cadsuane. She reads snippets of the Pattern. If the Dark One wins, then the whole game changes, and what she has seen may no longer come to pass. And the future visions (not really the right thread for this but I'll comment briefly) are not necessarily something written in stone. We're just not sure on them yet.

 

As for the timing of his confrontation with the Dark One, I thought he was pretty clear about that.

 

TOWERS OF MIDNIGHT - THE AMYRLIN'S ANGER PAGE 84

"In one month's time," Rand said, "I'm going to travel to Shayol Ghul and break the last remaining seals on the Dark One's prison. I want your help."

 

"I will not let you break the seals," she said. "That is madness."

"Then meet with me at the place known as the Field of Merrilor, just to the north. We will talk before I go to Shayol Ghul."

 

The meeting is set the day before his intended trip and I don't think he's going to be putting that off any longer.

[Tom Sawyer]

What I don't get is why he didn't give the explanation he gave to Nynaeve to Egwene. It was a pretty good explanation. Sure, maybe he's manipulating her to get all the armies together, but that kind of activity seems to kind of go against the Light Rand persona he was showing and he could get all the armies up there by telling them to get up there, so it seems like a bit of a waste of effort.

[syon]

well, its true that he could have tried to explain her... but maybe trying to explain without anyone else there to "suport" him could end up bad.

One more option would be that he actually wants a "confrontation" to happen, with all the leaders there to see this discussion... where he would prove his point over hers and where other ppl would also be able to testify that hes sane/right about doing it (since its obvius the AS would doubt it, like they did)

 

cumps

[knutz]

Just read the last few pages but wanted to add my 2c

 

Rand is an expert in Daes Daemar. He hasn't used this before really, but only because he was trying desparately to cling to sanity. At the end of TGS he accepted his madness, is now at peace with himself and has full access to Lews Therin's memories.

 

So it's not a surprise that he knew how to get Egwene to do his job for him.

 

It wasn't apparent why he did this until Aviendha saw the future. He's going to blackmail them into:

 

• Signing the ultimate peace treaty
  
• Accepting the leadership of the crystal throne in the last battle
  
• Accepting that his only job is to seal the bore - not to participate in the last battle
  

 

He needs to bow to Fortuona or all will be lost.

 

As for the seal, the bore was open for over 100 years in the last age - during the "War of Power". In all that time, the dark one wasn't free. However, he didn't have Shaidar Harran to use as a body back then. I think Fain is going to kill that one. Anyway, the focal point for the DO's prison will end up being a giant crystal ball filled with the true power. Like it was before the age of legends. He needs saidar and saidin to create it, but Lews Therin said you also needed to touch the DO directly with the power. He'll use the True Power for that.

[Tom Sawyer]

 

He needs to bow to Fortuona or all will be lost.

 

Wait ... what?

 

I'm going to have to say that you interpreted that bit completely backwards. Bowing to Tuon leads to the dystopian nightmare that Avi foresaw. What he needs to do is to get her to bow to him and break the damane's chains so that the main thing he leaves behind won't be a fascist army of slavers looking for world domination.

[Ahaz Flagg]

 

He needs to bow to Fortuona or all will be lost.

 

Wait ... what?

 

I'm going to have to say that you interpreted that bit completely backwards. Bowing to Tuon leads to the dystopian nightmare that Avi foresaw. What he needs to do is to get her to bow to him and break the damane's chains so that the main thing he leaves behind won't be a fascist army of slavers looking for world domination.

 

Valid point, and in reguards to that, what are the possibilites that with his new found power that he breaks them. what kind of blow would that be for the Seanchan eh?

[capuga]

1st post here,

 

Didn't see this brought up anywhere, but it seems Rand definitely survives the last battle, as Avi isn't pregnant yet but her future visions showed her and Rand's descendants. Furthermore in one of Avi's future visions they talk about the 3 different Dragon bloodlines, though 2 have been cut off. Certainly implies that Rand has children with both Avi and Min, which he certainly doesn't seem to have time for before TLB.

 

No reason he can't get them pregnant before the LB and die before they are born. I guess my question is - Will Rand immediately launch his assault on the Dark One as soon as he breaks the seals (which would be the next day as of the end of ToM - which would certainly make it unlikely he could get Aviendha pregnant before that) or will he break the seals and then there will be a little time before his final confrontation with the Dark One. The latter seems more likely to me since there seems to be a lot that still needs to happen with Rand for it to happen in one day.

 

You're definitely right in saying that he could get them pregnant before Tarmon Gaidon. However, one thing which people are forgetting about when they talk about Min's viewings. It was brought up quite prominently in TGS as a matter of fact, by Cadsuane. She reads snippets of the Pattern. If the Dark One wins, then the whole game changes, and what she has seen may no longer come to pass. And the future visions (not really the right thread for this but I'll comment briefly) are not necessarily something written in stone. We're just not sure on them yet.

 

As for the timing of his confrontation with the Dark One, I thought he was pretty clear about that.

 

TOWERS OF MIDNIGHT - THE AMYRLIN'S ANGER PAGE 84

"In one month's time," Rand said, "I'm going to travel to Shayol Ghul and break the last remaining seals on the Dark One's prison. I want your help."

 

"I will not let you break the seals," she said. "That is madness."

"Then meet with me at the place known as the Field of Merrilor, just to the north. We will talk before I go to Shayol Ghul."

 

The meeting is set the day before his intended trip and I don't think he's going to be putting that off any longer.

 

My question was not about when he was going to break the seals, but when he was going to actually assault the Dark One. Is he planning to do this immediately upon breaking the seals or will he break the seals and then actually fight the Dark One a little later. Notice the quote just says that he will break the seals in one month. Not that he will break the seals and fight the Dark One. From the view point of a reader and with our knowledge of all the various viewings and such, it seems that he will need more time then the day or two left as of the end of ToM to accomplish all of these things.

[randsc]

We know for a fact that the Seanchan prophecies were corrupted by the Shadow.

[nogoodatnames]

I doubt he would break the seals, then go and do other stuff. It would be just too risky, maybe the DO can't just breakout, however their not sure he can't.

 

Also I don't think Egwene is being unreasonable, Rand wasn't exactly forthcoming on what happens after he breaks the seals. Think it's pretty obvious that she got played, so he can do more important things, whilst she gathers the army.

[anotherfingolfin]

 

He needs to bow to Fortuona or all will be lost.

 

Wait ... what?

 

I'm going to have to say that you interpreted that bit completely backwards. Bowing to Tuon leads to the dystopian nightmare that Avi foresaw. What he needs to do is to get her to bow to him and break the damane's chains so that the main thing he leaves behind won't be a fascist army of slavers looking for world domination.

 

Valid point, and in reguards to that, what are the possibilites that with his new found power that he breaks them. what kind of blow would that be for the Seanchan eh?

 

i am really, really looking forward to how the Seanchan angle is brought to a (hopefully satisfactory) conclusion. really, i think it's the most complex question remaining- not counting the battle with the DO itself-, but a bigger/more complicated issue than, let's say, the Black Tower.

 

he CANNOT bow. even if that in itself is not assurance of Avi's vision. I mean, at this point, Rand kneeling to anyone, is weak sauce. this applies to both the Seanchan Empress or the Aes Sedai Amyrlin. (who, ironically, are remarkably similar in many aspects).

 

yet, i would be very disappointed if the Seanchan end up as negative faction who do not contribute to the light's cause in the last battle. for that matter, if the entire Sharan continent is ignored, or is implied to be all bad, i would be mortified. it would detract from the all-consuming nature of the last battle. it would weaken the build up that it effects all of humanity, and (not counting DF's) all of humanity will have a stake in fighting the Dark.

[Saitan]

Would be cool if the first thing he does when he gets to the meeting would be enter then show them the remaining seals and destroy them on the spot then say "So, now that that's done who's gona come with me to Shayol Ghoul?"

[GB]

i think the news from caemlyn and Tar Valon will postpone the discussion, and help will be sent to both sides. or after the dragon peace is agreed on, news start arriving and this is where we will see how all of the armed forces will be sent to various places.

 

likely, nynaeve will sense lan has started his attack and will tell rand and he will send help there as well.

 

elayne goes back to caemlyn, with some more channelers, and get a report of the fighting from charle while mat is trying to make his way to the inner city to get to the palace, i think his battle skill will be only the thing to save camelyn, he makes it to the palace with the help of moiraine.

 

as for rand, he probably wont take part in any fighting since he will need all his strength and the battle at maradon took much out of him, but he will probably go to caemlyn with elayne to help protect her and his babies.

 

and end up getting reunited with moiraine and mat.

 

egwene goes to tar valon to deal with the seanchan, with her aes sedai and maybe even ashaman, and her soldiers.

 

after both camelyn and tar valon are secured, rand goes to ebou dar with mat, perrin and moiraine, and maybe even egwene and finally binds the nine moons to him.

 

however if tar valon assault is started, then light forces will be fighting light forces again.

[Fryn]

Would be cool if the first thing he does when he gets to the meeting would be enter then show them the remaining seals and destroy them on the spot then say "So, now that that's done who's gona come with me to Shayol Ghoul?"

 

I got the impression it is more going to be. "Thank you all for coming. If you want me to save your souls and destroy the DO you must agree to peace (aka dragon peace). Really I don't care if you think I should break the seals or not, cause that is happening anyway."

 

But really there have been hints from early in the series that the seals needed to be broken, and the longer Rand delayed the more powerful the DO woud be in the last battle, cause he was organizing better/faster than the light was with all the back biting going on.

[bubbers]

oh, I just thought of something

 

everyone thinks egwene is a motherfreakin retard for summoning all the words soldiers to her to fight rand. because what are the worlds soldiers supposed to do against rand except die?

 

well I'm hear to tell all you egwene haters that egwene is an even bigger retard than you think. she didn't do it to intimidate Rand. She did it because it is her official right to deal with all the worlds monarchs/nobles and this was the only way egwene could take control of the war against the shadow back from the hall since she just gave them full control. By the soldiers being their under the orders of the nobles, and them under the orders of egwene, she becomes the leader of the war again, and the hall no longer is.

 

so basically, she is risking the light's soldiers being in the wrong spot to hold back the blight, risking Rand crushing 1.5 million of the lights soldiers if talks with rand don't go well, she forwent her chance to actually look into what rand is doing, she waived her right to talk to the leaders of the land about battle strategy to win the LB, she called the nobles/monarchs of the land to face the dragon reborn instead of standing with him in a direct confrontation, she gathered all the leaders of the land and forces of the light in a location and time where the forsaken were already aware of and she knew that when she asked them to come, all on the chance that she'd gain a smidgen of power over the hall that she just gave up

[Demon_AS]

Wonderful book. A couple of quick thoughts regarding Rand.

 

Can Rand Therin still access the True Power? The Borderlander scene implies this when he whispers to himself that the guardians only stops the One Power. He never went inside the guardian in TGS and didn't know of the True Power i WH.

Perhaps a touch of it would instantly turn him back to the dark side so the Shadow permitts him to use it if he wants.

 

Did he become his own sa'angreal at Dragonmount? When he destroyed the shadowspawn outside Maradon he seemed far more powerful than Lews Therin ever could have been during the Age of Legends. Even the Aes Sedai shielding him at the White Tower belived he could break free of the 13 circle if he wanted to.

 

I wonder if the Mierin scene is a trap or if she really wants to repent. Perhaps she can give Rand the last clue to sealing the bore since she was the one who opened it in the first place.

I don't think Rand was more powerful - I'm pretty sure that RJ has stated that he is exactly as strong as LTT was in the OP - which is to say the strongest channeler ever in Randland.

 

It did seem extraordinary that he was suddenly able to defeat so many Shadowspawn unaided, especially seeing as we can be certain he wasn't using the True Power (the Asha'man watching confirmed that he'd never seen so many weaves, implying that saidin was being utilised). I am making the assumption here that Rand cannot simultaneously channel both sources of Power at the same time.

 

Anyway, the point I'm getting to making is that I suspect Rand's ability with the Power has gone from being "fumbling" plus the bits of teaching he got from Asmodean plus crazy LTT's instincts to being full-fledged, Rand Sedai awesomeness (and, on a slightly different note - I loved that quote when he tells Cadsuane to call him that). So, I suspect his ability to channel hasn't increased, per se, but become infinitely more refined with LTT's 400 years' experience behind him. Thus, killing an army of Shadowspawn becomes possible when your ability to channel so many weaves is so efficient, and that probably explains it.

 

To answer your other questions - yes, I think he can still access the TP, which is probably why he wasn't worried about being shielded by 13 women OR by the Guardian - they only suppress the OP.

 

I think you're probably right about Lanfear's sudden reappearance... I've thought for some time now that she still has a part to play before this is all done.

[Demon_AS]

oh, I just thought of something

 

everyone thinks egwene is a motherfreakin retard for summoning all the words soldiers to her to fight rand. because what are the worlds soldiers supposed to do against rand except die?

 

well I'm hear to tell all you egwene haters that egwene is an even bigger retard than you think. she didn't do it to intimidate Rand. She did it because it is her official right to deal with all the worlds monarchs/nobles and this was the only way egwene could take control of the war against the shadow back from the hall since she just gave them full control. By the soldiers being their under the orders of the nobles, and them under the orders of egwene, she becomes the leader of the war again, and the hall no longer is.

 

so basically, she is risking the light's soldiers being in the wrong spot to hold back the blight, risking Rand crushing 1.5 million of the lights soldiers if talks with rand don't go well, she forwent her chance to actually look into what rand is doing, she waived her right to talk to the leaders of the land about battle strategy to win the LB, she called the nobles/monarchs of the land to face the dragon reborn instead of standing with him in a direct confrontation, she gathered all the leaders of the land and forces of the light in a location and time where the forsaken were already aware of and she knew that when she asked them to come, all on the chance that she'd gain a smidgen of power over the hall that she just gave up

I think part of Egwene's deal is control, but I don't think her actions are entirely unreasonable - and certainly it only looks so bleak because we, as the audience, know what every other character is thinking.

 

Looking at it from her POV, breaking the seals is utterly insane - I think she's so confident that Rand is mad, that she's unwilling to consider that he may know what he's doing. Which he doesn't, of course - and that's also the point.

 

Don't get me wrong - I think it's stupid as hell to begin doubting the Dragon Reborn on what looks like the eve of Tarmon Gai'don, particularly when she's been his advocate previously. Especially when there are such obvious signs that he's a force for the Light - ominous clouds peeling back to reveal the sun etc. But making the wrong decision at this critical juncture would be devastating, so she's being cautious.

 

I suspect that Rand will convince everyone to his side, and he'll do it by being straightforward. It seems too obvious, which is why so many people doubt it's going to be that simple... but sometimes obvious things have to happen, too. It's what makes them obvious ;).