Discuss The Full Book

[Byzantine279]

No, too many of us will cheer if he dies, clearly it will not happen.

[Rand Skywalker]

No, too many of us will cheer if he dies, clearly it will not happen.

lol

[Goramier]

I wonder if the Hurrin reunion will happen in the last book or did BS cut the scene out? Hurrin and Ingtar (sp?) are a couple of my all time favorite characters in the series. Obviously Ingtar won't be coming back but I thought I had read from BS or Jordan at some time that the Hurrin scene was supposed to be in the book. I had read over the last several pages and find it amazing that people will be so quick to jump on those who offered opinions of the book that aren't exactly favorable. They took the time to come to a fan site, make an account and post something so just because not everyone acts like a 10 year old bootlicker, they shouldn't be flamed.

 

I have many complaints with the book but like the others who stated theirs, I will read the last book when it comes out. I personally think the story has gotten WAY to convoluted. Scenes that should be jumping out as us and either shocking us or making us do the literarary gasp are lost because we have so many characters, plots and events to digest. I feel the pace of the book is far to fast for the huge story being told. I suspect that is why RJ slowed it down when he did. He likely saw that to flesh out the characters properly he would need to spend more time on them.

 

When I first heard that BS was splitting the book up I admit I was upset about it. I felt it was directly contrary to what RJ very clearly said he was going to do, etc... Now I think the opposite. If the series was to have been finished truly properly, I don't think it should have been split up into 3 books, but closer to about 6-8 more. Many character scenes, plots and such in ToM felt rushed to me while others (notably Ituralde) felt like they got way to much show time for what they were worth. One poster said his character was all-that and deserved it...but what is over looked with that thought is the simple fact that there are so many plots and characters, a great epic like WoT needs to do more on the main characters and less on the sub-characters. ToM did the opposite with Ituralde. He is unimportant as far as the grand scheme of the book and he got way to much face time. The only way to justify that is if he has a major role in the last book. Which is a circular agrument since all the other major characters should have big roles or big deaths. If you think about just the "main" characters, there are tons.

 

Wow, just reading over what I read kinda makes me feel even more about it the way I am trying to express it. It is such a huge world, with so much going on that this larger then normal post doesn't even begin to explain my points, lol.

[seanpatrick512]

So, has anyone else noticed that the bracelet angreal that Morraine was wearing is the same one that Lanfear was wearing when she confronted Rand at the end of FoH. Same description. Any speculation about it?

[knutz]

Did we really learn that Graendal killed Asmodean in this book? Does this revelation play a big role in the overall plot? You don't need to spoil the motive for why it happened yet, I am just curious if this detail is actually part of a larger plot in the book as someone on readandfindout.com suggested:

 

Link

 

I'm sure this has been covered and I just missed it because I skipped to page 50 - but I don't think Asmodean was one of the three.

1) She manouvered Sammael to go against Rand causing his death

2) Arangar

3) Mesaana

 

Well, that's about 3. Shaidar Harran said she was responsible for their demise, not that she killed them.

[Byzantine279]

It was an angreal that was found in the cache at Rhuidean (sp?) Moiraine left it out because she knew Lanfear had to be wearing it when she pushed her through the doorway.

[Baelorn]

So, has anyone else noticed that the bracelet angreal that Morraine was wearing is the same one that Lanfear was wearing when she confronted Rand at the end of FoH. Same description. Any speculation about it?

 

Is there anything to speculate on? Here's how I see it:

 

1. Lanfear and Moiraine fall through into their realm.

 

2. Lanfear is the strongest and wearing the Angreal so they start draining her first.

 

3. Someone comes to retrieve Lanfear when she is very weak in the Power. The Finn take the Angreal as part of the bargain or the person who came for Lanfear left it behind.

 

4. The Finn puts the Angreal on Moiraine and begin to drain her. Probably more slowly than they drained Lanfear since she was the only one they had left to feed on.

[Deadsy]

So, has anyone else noticed that the bracelet angreal that Morraine was wearing is the same one that Lanfear was wearing when she confronted Rand at the end of FoH. Same description. Any speculation about it?

 

Is there anything to speculate on? Here's how I see it:

 

1. Lanfear and Moiraine fall through into their realm.

 

2. Lanfear is the strongest and wearing the Angreal so they start draining her first.

 

Moiraine clawed it away from her as they through the doorway

[Baelorn]

Moiraine clawed it away from her as they through the doorway

 

Ah, I must be remembering the scene wrong then. The way I remembered it was that she just grabbed hold of it as they fell through which divided the power of the Angreal. Similar to what happened when Asmo and Rand fought over the access key.

[Mr Ares]

Did we really learn that Graendal killed Asmodean in this book? Does this revelation play a big role in the overall plot? You don't need to spoil the motive for why it happened yet, I am just curious if this detail is actually part of a larger plot in the book as someone on readandfindout.com suggested:

 

Link

 

I'm sure this has been covered and I just missed it because I skipped to page 50 - but I don't think Asmodean was one of the three.

1) She manouvered Sammael to go against Rand causing his death

2) Arangar

3) Mesaana

 

Well, that's about 3. Shaidar Harran said she was responsible for their demise, not that she killed them.

It says in the Glossary that Graendal killed Asmo.

[FarShainMael]

A couple of my BUT-candidates have gone out of the window (actually, they all have ), but I am still wondering if they may crop up in some way.

 

Rand is wearing the sword in the dragon scabbard (Justice). I think he may use it to carry the day with Fortuona (mslf), perhaps by revealing himself as Hawkwing's descendant. That sword should in any case have a powerful effect on the Seanchan when they recognise it for what it is.

 

Secondly, those 'Dragon' pins that Rand gave to the Asha'man. I note that Taim has reserved them (mostly) to his cronies, though of course Logain has one. I wonder if Rand has set them up so that he can influence them, and through them, the rogue Asha'man.

 

Just a thought.

[Sharaman]

A couple of my BUT-candidates have gone out of the window (actually, they all have ), but I am still wondering if they may crop up in some way.

 

Rand is wearing the sword in the dragon scabbard (Justice). I think he may use it to carry the day with Fortuona (mslf), perhaps by revealing himself as Hawkwing's descendant. That sword should in any case have a powerful effect on the Seanchan when they recognise it for what it is.

 

Secondly, those 'Dragon' pins that Rand gave to the Asha'man. I note that Taim has reserved them (mostly) to his cronies, though of course Logain has one. I wonder if Rand has set them up so that he can influence them, and through them, the rogue Asha'man.

 

Just a thought.

They could in theory be like the coins "Alys" handed the three boys.

In practice, he genuinely doesn't seem to know where Logain is.

[Cyf]

It says in the Glossary that Graendal killed Asmo.

 

Yeah. Not to mention the snarky quote by Moridin asking if Aran'gar was too a traitor or such. IE, Asmodean. :)

[A2597]

Actually...the thought that those pins were time released death makes sense...he knew all these guys were going to go insane...a pin that could be triggered to release a poison is a prudent thing to do...

[nolirion]

Actually...the thought that those pins were time released death makes sense...he knew all these guys were going to go insane...a pin that could be triggered to release a poison is a prudent thing to do...

Yes but at the time was he that cruel? those pin's are pin's I think Perhaps the shadow as done thing to them but mainly it is just some favoritism

[parsnip2009]

I wonder if the Hurrin reunion will happen in the last book or did BS cut the scene out? Hurrin and Ingtar (sp?) are a couple of my all time favorite characters in the series. Obviously Ingtar won't be coming back but I thought I had read from BS or Jordan at some time that the Hurrin scene was supposed to be in the book. I had read over the last several pages and find it amazing that people will be so quick to jump on those who offered opinions of the book that aren't exactly favorable. They took the time to come to a fan site, make an account and post something so just because not everyone acts like a 10 year old bootlicker, they shouldn't be flamed.

 

I have many complaints with the book but like the others who stated theirs, I will read the last book when it comes out. I personally think the story has gotten WAY to convoluted. Scenes that should be jumping out as us and either shocking us or making us do the literarary gasp are lost because we have so many characters, plots and events to digest. I feel the pace of the book is far to fast for the huge story being told. I suspect that is why RJ slowed it down when he did. He likely saw that to flesh out the characters properly he would need to spend more time on them.

 

When I first heard that BS was splitting the book up I admit I was upset about it. I felt it was directly contrary to what RJ very clearly said he was going to do, etc... Now I think the opposite. If the series was to have been finished truly properly, I don't think it should have been split up into 3 books, but closer to about 6-8 more. Many character scenes, plots and such in ToM felt rushed to me while others (notably Ituralde) felt like they got way to much show time for what they were worth. One poster said his character was all-that and deserved it...but what is over looked with that thought is the simple fact that there are so many plots and characters, a great epic like WoT needs to do more on the main characters and less on the sub-characters. ToM did the opposite with Ituralde. He is unimportant as far as the grand scheme of the book and he got way to much face time. The only way to justify that is if he has a major role in the last book. Which is a circular agrument since all the other major characters should have big roles or big deaths. If you think about just the "main" characters, there are tons.

 

Wow, just reading over what I read kinda makes me feel even more about it the way I am trying to express it. It is such a huge world, with so much going on that this larger then normal post doesn't even begin to explain my points, lol.

 

 

Yes i agree with this regarding Rodel. I also feel that ToM was a bit rushed. I really dont understand how Robert Jordan felt he could have finished the series in 1 book.

 

I really wouldnt mind all the time spent with secondary and even tertiary characters, if the primary characters especially Rand, were given much more 'screen' time. In this way i do think that the series could do better with more volumes, but alas that is never to be. This goes back to what i said earlier - that Brandon Sanderson has been given an impossible task in attempting to finish these books in a satisfactory manner.

[Bob T Dwarf]

This goes back to what i said earlier - that Brandon Sanderson has been given an impossible task in attempting to finish these books in a satisfactory manner.

 

As I've said before, Jordan wrote such that he was always six volumes from finishing. His insistence that he would finish in one more book was pure delusion.

 

Sanderson is doing a remarkable job to give us an ending as good as it has been in only three volumes. Amazing actually.

[parsnip2009]

This goes back to what i said earlier - that Brandon Sanderson has been given an impossible task in attempting to finish these books in a satisfactory manner.

 

As I've said before, Jordan wrote such that he was always six volumes from finishing. His insistence that he would finish in one more book was pure delusion.

 

Sanderson is doing a remarkable job to give us an ending as good as it has been in only three volumes. Amazing actually.

 

Yes that is fair. I do think that Gathering Storm was one of the best in the series. In my opinion Towers Of Midnight is not. That doesn't mean that i dont think Brandon is doing as good a job as might be expected.

[Ashaman Eric]

Stop whining. Jordan made an amazing world is awesome characters. Its not always about the main characters and epic endings. He made a complete world and i for one am glad coz i enjoyed every bit of it.

 

Only he didn't make a complete world. We don't really get to see inside Seanchan. We don't get to go to Shara. We don't go to the Island of Madmen. We didn't even get to meet the Amyar before they all drank the kool-aid. We've barely had a glimpse of Sea Folk society.

 

Jordan got lost in lace and frills and fluff and spankings to the point where there was neither time not space to create that complete world. We're stuck with knowing far too much about far too many trivial things and people in a fragment of a complete world.

 

That's not good writing.

 

I tend to agree with this. I also feel this is part of the reason why none of these elements were necessary to the story. We have indeed barely had a glimpse of Sea Folk society, but perhaps this is a good thing, as how many different societies and communities do we need?

 

It's a complete immersive world. But he was writing a story about that world, and not all places are relevent to the story. While I agree that his level of detail can be overwhelming (to the point of annoyance for some), I find it helps me visualize scenes or people in a way I can't with many other stories. Just think, if these are ever made into a movie/miniseries all of the detail for various scenes/costumes will be prewritten.

 

I'm confused by a couple things I've read regarding places/people that should or shouldn't appear. It seems contradictory to complain about too much stuff being in the books that you don't need to read about, while simultaneously complaining that you don't get to learn about inconsequencial people/places like Shara, the Seafolk, or the Land of Madmen. Much of the world/cultural details will probably come out if there's an Encyclopedia WoT published by BS/Harriet. RJ undoubtedly had a host of notes about the world that isn't depicted in the books. Not to mention, these places may still be come relevent to the plot and receive a big (if not complete) reveal in aMoL.

[AnthonyPlatts]

Just a quick question, and I haven't looked through all the pages, but with Rands effect on DF's will he get the same reaction from people forced to be a darkfriend, ie 13*13 method, and I wonder what will happen if and when he goes to the black tower, and does his uber channeling which makes the df's want to scratch their eyeballs out, though to me it looks like Logain will go there and clean it up, though maybe Logain is far away and Taim doesn't want to let him stop his conversion plan of the strongest Ashaman.

[Freud]

I think the key thing in the viewings of Avi is the fact that Rand bows down before Tuon. It all goes wrong because of that. Didn't we conclude somewhere before that the prophecies of the Seanchan were false, especially this bit?

To me it seems that the 'bad' future after winning the Last Battle can be overcome by making sure Rand does not kneel before Tuon, but the other way around. Maybe that is what Avi has to do.

[Goramier]

So, has anyone else noticed that the bracelet angreal that Morraine was wearing is the same one that Lanfear was wearing when she confronted Rand at the end of FoH. Same description. Any speculation about it?

 

Is there anything to speculate on? Here's how I see it:

 

1. Lanfear and Moiraine fall through into their realm.

 

2. Lanfear is the strongest and wearing the Angreal so they start draining her first.

 

3. Someone comes to retrieve Lanfear when she is very weak in the Power. The Finn take the Angreal as part of the bargain or the person who came for Lanfear left it behind.

 

4. The Finn puts the Angreal on Moiraine and begin to drain her. Probably more slowly than they drained Lanfear since she was the only one they had left to feed on.

 

This is basically how I saw it. I think the book did explain it and this is it, though I cannot recall any exact language. They drained Lanfear first who died because they did it to fast, so they put it on Moraine and drained her much slower so they could be in their "high" state for longer. I think they transfered the angreal because it created even more of a high for them since it made her more powerful. If you sum up the finns in modern terms, they are addicts. Kinda like the Elfs in Warcraft lore, if your familiar with it.

 

 

 

Rand is wearing the sword in the dragon scabbard (Justice). I think he may use it to carry the day with Fortuona (mslf), perhaps by revealing himself as Hawkwing's descendant. That sword should in any case have a powerful effect on the Seanchan when they recognise it for what it is.

 

Just a thought.

 

I think this is very possible but I have a hard time thinking Fotuana would see it and think, "that resolves it for me." I would agree though that she could see that as an omen and it would weigh on her decision to join Rand or change her views. Perhaps finding out that all of those who are the leash leaders (forget the name) can channel, that Rand has that sword, and that her prophecies were very likely tainted by a forsaken would cause her to simply change on the spot assuming she believed it all or was given proof. I don't think any of them alone would do it though BS has written the characters to be much more understanding or reasonable to help conclude the series in what I feel is a much shorter period then would have really been possible.

[Goramier]

This goes back to what i said earlier - that Brandon Sanderson has been given an impossible task in attempting to finish these books in a satisfactory manner.

 

As I've said before, Jordan wrote such that he was always six volumes from finishing. His insistence that he would finish in one more book was pure delusion.

 

Sanderson is doing a remarkable job to give us an ending as good as it has been in only three volumes. Amazing actually.

 

I agree.

[Axon]

Yes that is fair. I do think that Gathering Storm was one of the best in the series. In my opinion Towers Of Midnight is not. That doesn't mean that i dont think Brandon is doing as good a job as might be expected.

 

I agree. The Gathering Storm weighs in for me at #4. Towers of Midnight was still good, but it ranks about 7th or 8th of the books (it's better than 8-12, for me). I just don't know how he can finish everything in A Memory of Light!

[Elan Tedronai]

Yes that is fair. I do think that Gathering Storm was one of the best in the series. In my opinion Towers Of Midnight is not. That doesn't mean that i dont think Brandon is doing as good a job as might be expected.

 

I agree. The Gathering Storm weighs in for me at #4. Towers of Midnight was still good, but it ranks about 7th or 8th of the books (it's better than 8-12, for me). I just don't know how he can finish everything in A Memory of Light!

 

 

At this point. AMOL is going to look rushed with so many plotholes still unresolved