Discuss The Full Book

[tneva82]

The big tower is moridin. He is naeblis and is above the other forsaken.

 

Quite possibly, but it seems almost too obvious to conclude that the big tower means Nae'blis. Also, the timing seems rough. Why didn't his tower grow big until there were only six towers left, if rising to Nae'blis is what that action represents? I really gotta read ToM for myself before I can wade into the discussion full-throttle. One day more!

 

How many forsaken were alive when Moridin was introduced?

[shizuoka]

My big question about what I have just read is this.... Why call it Towers of Midnight? Why not call it something about forging perrin into a man or something that the story is actually about? I didn't read anything in this story about towers of midnight, except that shadow prophecy at the very end, and the beginning wind (that is not THE beginning, but is A beginning) wooshing its way through 13 not-mentioned-afterward black towers in Seanchan. Anybody care to illuminate me?

 

I was wondering that too... The Towers play such a tiny part in the book. They are mentioned twice briefly. I guess we will have to wait until the last book but it seems dumb we have to wait for next book to see why a previous book's title is relevant. It should be meaningful after having read the book...The Great Hunt, Lord of Chaos, etc.

 

 

 

Again, all of these aforementioned things are NOT spoilers. They are my premonitions that I am stating just for fun. What's your opinion of them?

 

Well this thread is for people who have finished the book to discuss it so we would be the wrong people to ask. I think it would be best to ask in the non-spoiler forums.

[shizuoka]

The big tower is moridin. He is naeblis and is above the other forsaken.

 

Quite possibly, but it seems almost too obvious to conclude that the big tower means Nae'blis. Also, the timing seems rough. Why didn't his tower grow big until there were only six towers left, if rising to Nae'blis is what that action represents? I really gotta read ToM for myself before I can wade into the discussion full-throttle. One day more!

 

How many forsaken were alive when Moridin was introduced?

 

I don't think it has anything to do with being Nae'blis. There were more than 6 alive when he was named.

 

Currently alive after ToM:

 

1. Demandred - Still playing where's waldo

 

2. Ishamael - Moridin

 

3. Moghedien - Mindtrapped - Does not show up in ToM

 

4. Cyndane - Lanfear - Shows up very briefly in Rand's dream. Presumed to still be mindtrapped and tortured daily.

 

5. Graendal - Could be dead or alive but most likely alive. Another mindtrap victim? Or will she be "tortured" by SH and left alone like Mesaana was?

 

6. Mesaana - Currently soiling herself in the custody of the WT. If she gets executed or killed, I would assume the DO would raise her in a new body. He doesn't seem angry at her and blamed her defeat on Graendal. But this might be too much to ask with one book remaining. She will probably be kept in the WT as a prisoner.

[Crael123]

Truly, only the strongest of the forsaken remain. Only the ones that have a plan and patience and were not aggressively trying to kill Rand remain.

 

Moggy hasnt done much the series, she should have been killed by Nynveave a long time ago.

 

Demandred i am amazed he hasnt come out yet. but just more anticipation for the most badassery ever

 

Ishmael... i dont even care anymore i want me some demandred.

 

Cyndane will turn good i am sure of it now.

 

Graendal will do something awesome. Or mess up again. i think she will kill one of the three. hopefully Elayne. speaking of which did we hear anything about the relief?

 

Messaana was a beast but she is worse than dead now.

 

Slayer will be looking for revenge now and i look forward to that

[Crael123]

oh and ONE MORE DAY HEEEEEEELL YEAH!!!!!!

[ghenjei]

Lanfear is plainly bait in the epilogue. Just sayin...

[WhiskyJack]

Lanfear is plainly bait in the epilogue. Just sayin...

 

 

A hot bait;)

[ghenjei]

Lanfear is plainly bait in the epilogue. Just sayin...

 

 

A hot bait;)

 

Better than jail bait....

 

That being said, I think jail bait is actually a good analogy. Given SH's comments to Graendel about the "last chance" to hurt Rand, I think Lanfear is going to be Rand's final test before the Last Battle. Will LT's old feelings + Rand's aversion to killing women trump his duty?

[bloodyflamingthisandthat]

Since the Dreamspike prevents Travelling without permission, and since Moridin appears to be the one who can give that permission, I have to wonder if Rand can control it himself since he and Moridin are becoming the same person. Also, does anyone else picture Neo getting taken over by Agent Smith and then destroying him from the inside when they picture Randidin? Which could either kill or severely wound the DO if Ishidin is holding the TP eg. the DO...

[lordofsoup]

Since the Dreamspike prevents Travelling without permission, and since Moridin appears to be the one who can give that permission, I have to wonder if Rand can control it himself since he and Moridin are becoming the same person. Also, does anyone else picture Neo getting taken over by Agent Smith and then destroying him from the inside when they picture Randidin? Which could either kill or severely wound the DO if Ishidin is holding the TP eg. the DO...

First the book was so good i dont know what to say. Anyway I was thinking the same thing about Neo. But I am surprised that Perrin has not seen the other dreamspike around the black tower and camaleyn.

[Stevros]

Since the Dreamspike prevents Travelling without permission, and since Moridin appears to be the one who can give that permission, I have to wonder if Rand can control it himself since he and Moridin are becoming the same person. Also, does anyone else picture Neo getting taken over by Agent Smith and then destroying him from the inside when they picture Randidin? Which could either kill or severely wound the DO if Ishidin is holding the TP eg. the DO...

 

Thats an interesting theory, but I'm thinking that Moridin gave it to someone else either Demandred or Taim, and they activated it; seems more likely to me. In which case Rand's link is not relevant.

 

Quick question do you reckon that you can still travel using TP within a DS range of influence??

[Sharaman]

Since the Dreamspike prevents Travelling without permission, and since Moridin appears to be the one who can give that permission, I have to wonder if Rand can control it himself since he and Moridin are becoming the same person. Also, does anyone else picture Neo getting taken over by Agent Smith and then destroying him from the inside when they picture Randidin? Which could either kill or severely wound the DO if Ishidin is holding the TP eg. the DO...

First the book was so good i dont know what to say. Anyway I was thinking the same thing about Neo. But I am surprised that Perrin has not seen the other dreamspike around the black tower and camaleyn.

Assuming a dreamspike centred in the BT, it probably would not affect Caemlyn.

The BT is very large and the Dspike doesn't seem to have a great range if we go by Grady-Neald's findings.

Perrin's timeline is scrambled visavis the others and he never went very near the BT.

Either the wrong period or out of range.

[lordofsoup]

yes. Rand says that the Guardian around Far Madding can not stop the TP.

[Stevros]

yes. Rand says that the Guardian around Far Madding can not stop the TP.

 

Yes but the guardian's are very different things to a dreamspike, first there are two parts to the guardians one to stop saidin and one to stop saidar, wheras the dreamspike is one object that does both. I think the dreamspike would share more in common with the foxhead, and we don't know if that (or they now) will stop the TP.

 

I'm not saying that the TP can't beat the dreamspike, but I don't think that linking it to the guardians is a good enough answer to prove one way or another

[Sharaman]

yes. Rand says that the Guardian around Far Madding can not stop the TP.

 

Yes but the guardian's are very different things to a dreamspike, first there are two parts to the guardians one to stop saidin and one to stop saidar, wheras the dreamspike is one object that does both. I think the dreamspike would share more in common with the foxhead, and we don't know if that (or they now) will stop the TP.

 

I'm not saying that the TP can't beat the dreamspike, but I don't think that linking it to the guardians is a good enough answer to prove one way or another

 

The DSpike specifically stops Gates. it doesn't hinder other channeling - either OP or presumably TP.

We had RJ talk about this earlier - specific wards against Travel in the AoL war of Power.

The Far Madding Guardian according to Rand, cuts off access only to OP. You can channel anything if you have a well. And, again according to Rand, you can channel TP anyway.

 

Incidentally, what's the odds on how Asmo died? Gateway / TAR Gateway / skimming platform?

[The Fisher King]

I Have A Question For Those That Have Read TOM:

 

 

What is your gut NOW telling you about Mazrim Taim???... That is my question.

 

 

I know that we do not get many glances at him in TOM, but there is significant insight into the Black Tower.

 

 

We know he is not Demandred. We have for years.

 

 

In my opinion, The epilogue of KOD and the glances inside the Black Tower in TOM are what really should be considered the fuel to re-ignite the ''Just what/who exactly IS Taim???'' analysis.

 

 

So, I will ask you, as of TOM's conclusion. are your instincts telling you that Taim is:

 

 

1 Just another lifelong DF who ended up being able to channel an enormous amount of the Power?

 

 

2 Not a DF or a ''Good Guy'' but an independent-thinking free agent who jumps where he sees his biggest advantage.

 

 

3 Maybe a mercenary? Hired gun-type working for a Forsaken?

 

 

4 A man who began to channel - very strongly - and was 13X13ed?

 

 

5 Maybe just a guyw ho wasn't really a ''DF/Bad Guy'' but became bitter after meeting Rand and hating and resenting him on first sight?

 

 

6 Maybe not a Male Channeler who was 13X13ed but maybe under COMPULSION from one of the Forsaken?

 

 

7 A combination of the above?

 

 

8 Other?

 

 

 

Fish

[ghenjei]

The big un-noticed thing...

 

Seems to me that it is the fate of the male Aiel channelers. Nearly the very end of the book. We find out what happenned to them. How long have the Aiel been sending men who can channel to the Blight to die? A long time. It seems we are supposed to infer that these men have not been dying, but being turned to the Shadow. That's A LOT of male channelers who have been learning for a LONG time... Presto - instant force of Dreadlords.

 

So if the red Aiel are truly the male channelers, are they also Demandred's army? Or has he been hiding out in Shara or the Land of Madmen (under the pseudonym Dem Draperdred)?

[Guest battleajah]

Stayed up until 2am reading all 26 pages last night!

 

a.) Did Elaida/Suffa have any more Foretellings? Or does she still harbor delusions that she is the Angry Amyrlin that Rand has to answer to?

 

b.) I know someone upthread already asked if Rand was ever going to tell Galad about being his bro and all. What I want to know is if Rand is ever going to tell Elayne that he is related to Tigraine.

 

c.) Did Tam discuss with Rand about how he found him on the slopes of Dragonmount?

 

d.) Now that the cat is out of the bag on who killed Asmo, was there anything else in the Glossary that could shed light on any past theories (or develop into new ones)?

 

Thanks to all who take time out of their re-read(s) to post spoilers!

[Sharaman]

Stayed up until 2am reading all 26 pages last night!

 

a.) Did Elaida/Suffa have any more Foretellings? Or does she still harbor delusions that she is the Angry Amyrlin that Rand has to answer to?

 

b.) I know someone upthread already asked if Rand was ever going to tell Galad about being his bro and all. What I want to know is if Rand is ever going to tell Elayne that he is related to Tigraine.

 

c.) Did Tam discuss with Rand about how he found him on the slopes of Dragonmount?

 

d.) Now that the cat is out of the bag on who killed Asmo, was there anything else in the Glossary that could shed light on any past theories (or develop into new ones)?

 

Thanks to all who take time out of their re-read(s) to post spoilers!

a) Not in ToM - seems unlikely overall.

b) Not in ToM -

c) Not in ToM - he did earlier when he was delirious in EotW.

d) About Asmo you mean? No

[Valsuvious]

The 5 scenes I personally am looking forward to reading the most are the following:

 

1. Rand meeting Egwene in the tower.

 

2. Perrin vs. Slayer

 

3. Mat and the Tower of Ghengi

 

4. Mat killing the gholam

 

5. Perrin forging the power wrought hammer.

 

Of course I want to see Rand clean up some shadow spawn, Rand with Tam, Rand and Cadsuane, and Eggy turning Messana's brain into pudding but the listed 5 are what I am waiting for. Tomorrow cannot come soon enough.

[Orderofolde]

Has anyone noticed that there has been no advertising the last few books, and that fewer and fewer places are doing the Midnight release parties? My local Barnes and Noble did the midnight release party for TGS, but now isn't for this book. Books aren't hitting the shelves on the 2nd, they are coming out on Wednesday, Thursday, even next week, when the book distributor and vendors come into the stores. It isn't just the story that's comeing to the end of an Age, but the lack of promoting and advertising and reintroducing the other series books prior to ToM is sad, and I've been looking. Short of major booksellers, there isn't so much as a countdown timer or a placard anymore. Your everyday videogame gets a reserved space and a countdown timer...it's nearly heartbreaking.

[Beren]

Has anyone noticed that there has been no advertising the last few books, and that fewer and fewer places are doing the Midnight release parties? My local Barnes and Noble did the midnight release party for TGS, but now isn't for this book. Books aren't hitting the shelves on the 2nd, they are coming out on Wednesday, Thursday, even next week, when the book distributor and vendors come into the stores. It isn't just the story that's comeing to the end of an Age, but the lack of promoting and advertising and reintroducing the other series books prior to ToM is sad, and I've been looking. Short of major booksellers, there isn't so much as a countdown timer or a placard anymore. Your everyday videogame gets a reserved space and a countdown timer...it's nearly heartbreaking.

 

Umm... this is not the place for this discussion. Just a friendly heads up to get this thread back on track.

[Awakened]

Stayed up until 2am reading all 26 pages last night!

 

a.) Did Elaida/Suffa have any more Foretellings? Or does she still harbor delusions that she is the Angry Amyrlin that Rand has to answer to?

 

b.) I know someone upthread already asked if Rand was ever going to tell Galad about being his bro and all. What I want to know is if Rand is ever going to tell Elayne that he is related to Tigraine.

 

c.) Did Tam discuss with Rand about how he found him on the slopes of Dragonmount?

 

d.) Now that the cat is out of the bag on who killed Asmo, was there anything else in the Glossary that could shed light on any past theories (or develop into new ones)?

 

Thanks to all who take time out of their re-read(s) to post spoilers!

a) Not in ToM - seems unlikely overall.

b) Not in ToM -

c) Not in ToM - he did earlier when he was delirious in EotW.

d) About Asmo you mean? No

 

Anything more from Elaida, period?

[Kevin Freeheart]

First, thank you to everyone who has posted spoilers, enjoyed them and kept the thread going. Man, I am so happy to have been a part of this community all of these years. I've even happier that with AMoL and movies and everything else that will happen, I have more great years to come. :)

 

3. Aviendha. Wow. That was pretty sad. I mean really really sad. And also very profound.

 

If indeed the forces of the Light win and this viewing pans out, then we are forced to believe that eventually, the Seanchan conquer the entire world, leash all the channelers in the world, destroy the Aiel . . . I mean, ok, it's not the Dark One destroying all of creation, but you gotta admit it is pretty f'ing depressing.

The only reason I can think of for this to be shown is for Aviendha to gain the insight to truly save the Aiel.

 

And WTF is all that about "remnant of a remnant" being saved by Rand? If Avi's visions are true then just a generation after the Last Battle, aren't there hundreds of thousands of Aiel?

 

I'm taking a hiatus at page 18 of this thread to post, so if I'm repetitive or redundant, that's why.

 

Have you ever really thought about history? Just a hypothetical group but take anarchists, for a second. History has been dominated by nations and states. Do you think it's a little odd that history books talk about nations and states?

 

What if, in some alternate history, anarchists had "won" the philisophical battle and become the majority presence in history? Wouldn't that make the "history" books a bit slanted and different to you?

 

The Wheel of Time is our fantastical future. We've seen it written from the perspective of people during the Third Age of this turning, and we identify with their views. But it doesn't mean that their views are "right" or anything. It's just what the story revolves around.

 

Are the Randlanders "vile" because they don't respect ji'e'toh? The Aiel would think so. Are the humans creepy because they touch the One Power? The wolves would think so. Are Third Age Aes Sedai barbaric because they severed the men who would go mad when the Second Age society honored them?

 

Human beings are complex creatures. Rand has many times referenced "culling" from his time as a shepherd. The Seanchan very much might view channeling as the same thing. Fast forward for a minute...

 

Say the Seanchan DO invade and conquer the world. And in 10 generations, they've managed to cull the ability to channel out of the world. In the 11th generation, there are no chanellers in the world and hence no role for the "slaves" you mention. What then? What do the Seanchan impart on the world? Unity? A sense of belonging? Racial diversity and equality not seen in our Age?

 

The "remnant of the remnant" are the Tinkers. It's been repeated in the latter books that they're finding safety in the Seanchan lands that they've never found before. They just happen to be the only Aiel group that DOES NOT use the name "Aiel".

 

There's an underlying theme of betterment, fight, survival and thriving in the WoT. It's also clear that humanity in the WoT isn't perfect. They're not the Creator. The lacks of communication, the assumption that "you've got a penis, you must be a woolhead" or "you wear skirts, you must be out to cloud my mind" are clearly undermining what it is that makes them apt to survive. Contrast Seandar where a woman can rise to great power based on her skills. Where a cunning man from a rural region with skin "as dark as coal" can be a High Lord.

 

Jim Rigney was a fan and student of history. It's often required to recognize the mistakes of past generations in order to rectify them.

 

Remember that when reading the WoT, you're reading about a world that has a very, VERY visible difference from the one we live in today. In that Third Age, there is a clear understanding of "good" (the Creator) and "evil" (The Shadow). In that world, the Seanchan invasion might end up defeating those would would choose violence over peace. Attack over discussion. Subjugation over evaluation.

[Awakened]

First, thank you to everyone who has posted spoilers, enjoyed them and kept the thread going. Man, I am so happy to have been a part of this community all of these years. I've even happier that with AMoL and movies and everything else that will happen, I have more great years to come. :)

 

3. Aviendha. Wow. That was pretty sad. I mean really really sad. And also very profound.

 

If indeed the forces of the Light win and this viewing pans out, then we are forced to believe that eventually, the Seanchan conquer the entire world, leash all the channelers in the world, destroy the Aiel . . . I mean, ok, it's not the Dark One destroying all of creation, but you gotta admit it is pretty f'ing depressing.

The only reason I can think of for this to be shown is for Aviendha to gain the insight to truly save the Aiel.

 

And WTF is all that about "remnant of a remnant" being saved by Rand? If Avi's visions are true then just a generation after the Last Battle, aren't there hundreds of thousands of Aiel?

 

I'm taking a hiatus at page 18 of this thread to post, so if I'm repetitive or redundant, that's why.

 

Have you ever really thought about history? Just a hypothetical group but take anarchists, for a second. History has been dominated by nations and states. Do you think it's a little odd that history books talk about nations and states?

 

What if, in some alternate history, anarchists had "won" the philisophical battle and become the majority presence in history? Wouldn't that make the "history" books a bit slanted and different to you?

 

The Wheel of Time is our fantastical future. We've seen it written from the perspective of people during the Third Age of this turning, and we identify with their views. But it doesn't mean that their views are "right" or anything. It's just what the story revolves around.

 

Are the Randlanders "vile" because they don't respect ji'e'toh? The Aiel would think so. Are the humans creepy because they touch the One Power? The wolves would think so. Are Third Age Aes Sedai barbaric because they severed the men who would go mad when the Second Age society honored them?

 

Human beings are complex creatures. Rand has many times referenced "culling" from his time as a shepherd. The Seanchan very much might view channeling as the same thing. Fast forward for a minute...

 

Say the Seanchan DO invade and conquer the world. And in 10 generations, they've managed to cull the ability to channel out of the world. In the 11th generation, there are no chanellers in the world and hence no role for the "slaves" you mention. What then? What do the Seanchan impart on the world? Unity? A sense of belonging? Racial diversity and equality not seen in our Age?

 

The "remnant of the remnant" are the Tinkers. It's been repeated in the latter books that they're finding safety in the Seanchan lands that they've never found before. They just happen to be the only Aiel group that DOES NOT use the name "Aiel".

 

There's an underlying theme of betterment, fight, survival and thriving in the WoT. It's also clear that humanity in the WoT isn't perfect. They're not the Creator. The lacks of communication, the assumption that "you've got a penis, you must be a woolhead" or "you wear skirts, you must be out to cloud my mind" are clearly undermining what it is that makes them apt to survive. Contrast Seandar where a woman can rise to great power based on her skills. Where a cunning man from a rural region with skin "as dark as coal" can be a High Lord.

 

Jim Rigney was a fan and student of history. It's often required to recognize the mistakes of past generations in order to rectify them.

 

Remember that when reading the WoT, you're reading about a world that has a very, VERY visible difference from the one we live in today. In that Third Age, there is a clear understanding of "good" (the Creator) and "evil" (The Shadow). In that world, the Seanchan invasion might end up defeating those would would choose violence over peace. Attack over discussion. Subjugation over evaluation.

 

It might work out that way but I would be disappointed after all this time I would like to believe that the wheel could have a happily ever after when Rand whens Tarmon Gaiden. Silly as it might sound, I think the fans have earned it.