Discuss The Full Book

[KefkaPalazzo]

As far as the BUT, I'm in the "mat's spear" camp.

 

He asked for "a way out". We took it to mean that Mat asked the Finn to re-open the door, which they kinda did. But well, they literally handed him the way out. Mat was panicking in book 11 about the things he got from the Finn, but even the hilariously paranoid version of Mat in TGS never once gave thought to the spear. If that doesn't qualify as a Big Unnoticed Thing, I don't know what does.

 

 

I doubt it was the skimming thing. We've been speculating about that for years. The hangup wasn't that it may or may not be possible to fall of the platform. We weren't sure whether a gateway would fall apart when the gholam tried to go through, although many of us just assumed that it would work just fine. Reference the WOTFAQ's "Fifty Ways to Kill a Gholam" section.

 

Although I am curious, what happened with the crazy wolf guy?

[Beren]

As far as the BUT, I'm in the "mat's spear" camp.

 

He asked for "a way out". We took it to mean that Mat asked the Finn to re-open the door, which they kinda did. But well, they literally handed him the way out. Mat was panicking in book 11 about the things he got from the Finn, but even the hilariously paranoid version of Mat in TGS never once gave thought to the spear. If that doesn't qualify as a Big Unnoticed Thing, I don't know what does.

 

 

I doubt it was the skimming thing. We've been speculating about that for years. The hangup wasn't that it may or may not be possible to fall of the platform. We weren't sure whether a gateway would fall apart when the gholam tried to go through, although many of us just assumed that it would work just fine. Reference the WOTFAQ's "Fifty Ways to Kill a Gholam" section.

 

Although I am curious, what happened with the crazy wolf guy?

 

Perrin meets him in T'a'R as the wolf, Boundless. He explains to Perrin that he is completely wolf and that is alright for him and Perrin begins to understand that he can accept the wolf part of him without losing his humanity. He does not have to be like the other wolves, but he does need to accept that the wolf is part of him. He needed to understand his pieces and while Hopper showed most of that to him, Boundless (Noam) was the final piece that put it all together. After that, Perrin took up leadership of his group willingly and without a second thought. He is like a completely new character almost after that experience, even though he is still Perrin. I guess you could say that it caused him to become who the Wheel needed him to be. It had been running him around forever so he could finally get it all figured out including his official trial before the Children of Light for the two Children he killed.

[Talir1013]

So I just finished the book, and one of the neatest things for me was all the reunions between characters. Egwene and Rand, Egwene and Amys/Bair, Mat and Perrin, Mat and Elayne/Birgitte, Thom and Elayne, Tam and Rand part 2, Elayne and her brothers, all 3 of her children with Morgase, Thom and Moiraine...characters finally meeting for the first time, or revealing identities. Galad and Berelain, for example, do indeed fall head over heels for each other. Rand apologizes to everyone he can find for being an ass. Nyneave finally gets Lan's bond. Lots of characters talk marriage, from Morgase and Tallanvor, who Perrin marries ("off with you!", he says), to Thom and Moiraine (who get engaged) to Gawyn and Egwene, who sort of get engaged. These moments are all just...nice, I guess. I mean, its nice to know who killed Asmodean and to see Moiraine get rescued and various other prophecies fulfilled, but the characters taking genuine pleasure in each other is just enjoyable. Even with the Last Battle coming, the book feels like it has a much lighter tone than TGS--probably because Perrin is finally getting over himself and Rand is less a nutcase.

 

Question for others: who is the woman Aviendha meets that shares her camp before she gets to Rhuidean? The only thing I could think of is that this is one of the Jenn Aiel come out of hiding, but I would be interested in hearing other thoughts.

[The Fisher King]

I am curious from those who have read the book what they feel about the writing itself, both in comparison to TGS and to the first eleven. ... Not plotlines or story ... the actual writing itself from a technical/prose/flow aspect.

 

I will be honest: I felt like TGS was beautifully in sync with the first eleven. Obviously Brandon is not RJ and there were a few little things we all noticed (simpler dialogue breaks in sentences, some more modern terms, tempest, etc) but for the MOST part I truly believe that, if I had not been aware of Mr Jordan's passing and the author change, I may not have even noticed a change in TGS. Remember, alot of people forget that KOD was written much differently that 1 - 11 also...quicker, lighter, crisper...but still that beautiful RJ skill in full evidence. ,,, But, I just felt like Brandon did outstandingly well (or as well as possible) in the writing aspect in TGS.

 

 

So, how did it come off in TOM - both in its own regard, and in comparison to Brandon in TGS - and in comparison to the rest of the series?

 

 

 

Fish

[Diederichos]

Perrin and Rand seem to have finished their character development/maturing/going where the Wheel needs them to be(to steal from an earlier poster). Does the same seem to have happened with Mat or does he seem...'unfinished'.

[Elend]

He, as well as his gf's (those he is bonded to) cause breaking in the clouds and decrease of DO's influence in the area.

 

Can I just say that I predicted something reasonably similar to this, w.r.t why the clouds were breaking in Caemlyn? I even have a post somewhere around here about it, though I admit I figured it'd be Rand's kids emitting the Lightbubble.

 

Also, w.r.t Light power, Light taint, etc, I'm not on record actually saying it on this site (idt), but I have longed predicted that something like that exists.

 

 

Also, /cry at own weakness and inability to not read spoilers

[lilltempest]

2- Not sure... Nyneave healing madness???

 

I was thinking about this yesterday; we just should just rename Nynaeve "Deus ex machina" and get over with it.

 

Let's see...

 

Egwene is the BESTEST Dreamwalker ever. She single-handedly defeats the Seanchan invasion at the WT, gets every woman in the Tower to bow down to her greatness due to asinine advice a five-year old could come up with (resulting in her being the quintessential Aes Sedai for every single Ajah), and gets the whole world to rally against Rand (according to spoilers) just by batting her bloody eyelashes. And Nynaeve is 'Deus ex machina'?? We have Egwene, who is a Mary Sue to her teeth (who everyone just loves and worships and has everything fall into her lap after virtually no effort on her part) and even Cadsuane, who is given god-mode ter'angreal, making her completely untouchable, but because Nyn is able to figure out two things (Healing stilling and Healing madness) no one else has ever been able to do, she's somehow deus ex machina?

 

Nyn, to me, is a believable and a character that I can relate to, despite her power. Things don't always work out for her the way she wants and she ends up becoming a better person for it. She actually grows - in the last book, she started seeing that Rand wasn't an idiot, after all - and cares for those around her. She isn't some spoiled little biatch who thinks she's a god that everyone should (and does) obey without question. So the few successes she's had (which others have duplicated to the same success or better) are to be applauded and make me love her more as a character. That is a billion times better than Little Miss Perfect who is always right, never fails at anything she does, thinks her poop smells like roses, and acts like a complete and utter twit to the people who call her friend.

[fionwe1987]

Nynaeve is a goddess. Hence she is deus ex machina. :)

 

And I see that even tGS hasn't pushed you off the rabid anti-Egwene bandwagon, Illtempest. Pity.

[lilltempest]

Nynaeve is a goddess. Hence she is deus ex machina. :)

 

And I see that even tGS hasn't pushed you off the rabid anti-Egwene bandwagon, Illtempest. Pity.

 

Nynaeve isn't a goddess. She is completely awesome, I agree, but in the end, she's just a woman. She doesn't rule the world and has no desire to do so. She does amazing things but is constantly shown up by others, yet it doesn't matter to her. She heals because it's what she loves to do and she gives it her all. She is loyal to her friends because that's who she is and she isn't the type to turn on them for glory or power. That's why I love her. :)

 

Why would tGS make me like Egwene? Her endless blather about how everyone but her sucks was enough to make me hurl. Her continued nasty attitude toward Rand made me angry and her support of Silviana's statement that no man can be trusted was totally sickening. The fact that women who are hundreds of years old were salivating on her for spouting garbage that even the stupidest of people could comprehend just made it worse. You don't create respect for a character by making all the characters around her look like utter morons. You make those around her smart - you just make her either smarter or more respectable (case in point: Nynaeve, who is completely worthy of respect even though she doesn't seem to believe it herself). But back to Egwene...

 

She is not a nice person. She isn't even a good person, by my definition. And she is a horrible friend because all she cares about is power and getting the upper hand over everyone, including her friends. She would stab her own mother in the back to get what she wants and somehow convince herself and everyone else that she was justified to do it. Throw in the fact that, in the new book, she is still anti-Rand, forces Nyn to return to the WT and treats her like crap, and there's no way I'll ever like her.

[fionwe1987]

Nynaeve isn't a goddess. She is completely awesome, I agree, but in the end, she's just a woman. She doesn't rule the world and has no desire to do so. She does amazing things but is constantly shown up by others, yet it doesn't matter to her. She heals because it's what she loves to do and she gives it her all. She is loyal to her friends because that's who she is and she isn't the type to turn on them for glory or power. That's why I love her. :)

No one shows her up except Cadsuane. And there's a very obvious reason for that.

 

Why would tGS make me like Egwene? Her endless blather about how everyone but her sucks was enough to make me hurl.

Well, everyone else did suck. Except Siuan. They were incompetent ninnys when they should have been at their best.

 

Her continued nasty attitude toward Rand made me angry

By feeling angry at how Elaida treated him and sympathizing with his treatment. Yeah, right.

 

and her support of Silviana's statement that no man can be trusted was totally sickening.

Wait... you make a statement... someone else says it is an attitude that needs to change. You take that to mean they're supporting you?

 

The fact that women who are hundreds of years old were salivating on her for spouting garbage that even the stupidest of people could comprehend just made it worse.

I don't see what your objection here is. The point isn't that she is wiser. The point is that she has an outsider's perspective, and lack of indoctrination by the Tower. Its the same reasons why Nynaeve is able to rubbish the arguments of Corele and Merise about Rand's handling of the Seanchan. And the stupidest people (like Elaida) did not comprehend what she was saying. Those who were clever enough to do so appreciate Egwene because she has such ideas even though she's young, not because she's Einstien in their eyes.

 

You don't create respect for a character by making all the characters around her look like utter morons.

Who were utter morons? Saerin? Silviana? Ferane? I'm totally confused here... Elaida, I can agree with, but her moronic nature has been built up since book 4.

 

You make those around her smart - you just make her either smarter or more respectable (case in point: Nynaeve, who is completely worthy of respect even though she doesn't seem to believe it herself). But back to Egwene...

Yea... that's kind of what happened.

She is not a nice person. She isn't even a good person, by my definition. And she is a horrible friend because all she cares about is power and getting the upper hand over everyone, including her friends. She would stab her own mother in the back to get what she wants and somehow convince herself and everyone else that she was justified to do it.

Still at it, are you? You still really think that Egwene will use an a'dam on Rand and control him, don't you?

 

Throw in the fact that, in the new book, she is still anti-Rand,

Apparently not. Rand tells her he'll meet her in one month, when he wants to hear her arguments against his plans. Which is precisely what she prepares for. She working to persuade him that breaking the Seals this early is stupid, according to three different people who read the books. That isn't being anti-Rand. That is being anti his plan. Which, apparently, is exactly what Rand wants.

 

forces Nyn to return to the WT and treats her like crap, and there's no way I'll ever like her.

You might be interested to know that she calls in Nynaeve because she needs an adviser, and after some heated discussion on Rand's plan, they work together to keep the Hall under control, and Egwene takes Nynaeve's advise based on her experiences with the Women's Circle to tackle the Hall... crappy treatment indeed.

[jdbond]

Hasn't trollocs already invaded the borderlands and TG has basically begun?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Tarmon Gaidon began before The Eye of the World introduced us to this world and these people.

 

We're just now, finally, getting around to the heavy-duty killing and destruction is all.

[haloun]

Nynaeve isn't a goddess. She is completely awesome, I agree, but in the end, she's just a woman. She doesn't rule the world and has no desire to do so. She does amazing things but is constantly shown up by others, yet it doesn't matter to her. She heals because it's what she loves to do and she gives it her all. She is loyal to her friends because that's who she is and she isn't the type to turn on them for glory or power. That's why I love her. :)

No one shows her up except Cadsuane. And there's a very obvious reason for that.

 

Why would tGS make me like Egwene? Her endless blather about how everyone but her sucks was enough to make me hurl.

Well, everyone else did suck. Except Siuan. They were incompetent ninnys when they should have been at their best.

 

Her continued nasty attitude toward Rand made me angry

By feeling angry at how Elaida treated him and sympathizing with his treatment. Yeah, right.

 

and her support of Silviana's statement that no man can be trusted was totally sickening.

Wait... you make a statement... someone else says it is an attitude that needs to change. You take that to mean they're supporting you?

 

The fact that women who are hundreds of years old were salivating on her for spouting garbage that even the stupidest of people could comprehend just made it worse.

I don't see what your objection here is. The point isn't that she is wiser. The point is that she has an outsider's perspective, and lack of indoctrination by the Tower. Its the same reasons why Nynaeve is able to rubbish the arguments of Corele and Merise about Rand's handling of the Seanchan. And the stupidest people (like Elaida) did not comprehend what she was saying. Those who were clever enough to do so appreciate Egwene because she has such ideas even though she's young, not because she's Einstien in their eyes.

 

You don't create respect for a character by making all the characters around her look like utter morons.

Who were utter morons? Saerin? Silviana? Ferane? I'm totally confused here... Elaida, I can agree with, but her moronic nature has been built up since book 4.

 

You make those around her smart - you just make her either smarter or more respectable (case in point: Nynaeve, who is completely worthy of respect even though she doesn't seem to believe it herself). But back to Egwene...

Yea... that's kind of what happened.

She is not a nice person. She isn't even a good person, by my definition. And she is a horrible friend because all she cares about is power and getting the upper hand over everyone, including her friends. She would stab her own mother in the back to get what she wants and somehow convince herself and everyone else that she was justified to do it.

Still at it, are you? You still really think that Egwene will use an a'dam on Rand and control him, don't you?

 

Throw in the fact that, in the new book, she is still anti-Rand,

Apparently not. Rand tells her he'll meet her in one month, when he wants to hear her arguments against his plans. Which is precisely what she prepares for. She working to persuade him that breaking the Seals this early is stupid, according to three different people who read the books. That isn't being anti-Rand. That is being anti his plan. Which, apparently, is exactly what Rand wants.

 

forces Nyn to return to the WT and treats her like crap, and there's no way I'll ever like her.

You might be interested to know that she calls in Nynaeve because she needs an adviser, and after some heated discussion on Rand's plan, they work together to keep the Hall under control, and Egwene takes Nynaeve's advise based on her experiences with the Women's Circle to tackle the Hall... crappy treatment indeed.

 

 

have not yet read the book, but from everything i have read on here about egwene, i I can see exactly why people think she is overreacting about the rand thing, also remember egwene has been under compulsion from halima for a very long time, and no one knows exactly what she was compulsed to do or say, she has extreme badassness, and I would agree that the aes sedai are all morons up to this point, the entire institution is, read luckers thread on how they have been a total failure since the beggining, but I think Egwene has some major problems yet to take care of from all the compulsion she has been under. since becoming amyrlynn of the rebels and getting halima as her baby sitter, she has gotten more and more anti rand, she even considers imprisoning him once due to his supposed use of compulsion on the sisters who swore to him. I think she falls way short of what she could be, but is probably going to be able to cope with it eventually. especially with nynaeve as an advisor, nynaeve will notice something wrong and "heal her"/remove the compulsion.

[Elend]

Earlier in the thread someone mentioned how no one was quite sure how Messy avoided the Oath Rod, etc, when Egwene did the purge.

 

Anyone recall precisely what was asked during it? Declaration they were not a Darkfriend and/or Black Ajah? Because a very simple explanation would be the Forsaken considering themselves above the Darkfriends and Black Ajah. Very simple and takes advantage of the idea that if the person saying it doesn't consider it a lie, than it isn't a lie.

[jdbond]

 

 

have not yet read the book, but from everything i have read on here about egwene, i I can see exactly why people think she is overreacting about the rand thing, also remember egwene has been under compulsion from halima for a very long time, and no one knows exactly what she was compulsed to do or say, she has extreme badassness, and I would agree that the aes sedai are all morons up to this point, the entire institution is, read luckers thread on how they have been a total failure since the beggining, but I think Egwene has some major problems yet to take care of from all the compulsion she has been under. since becoming amyrlynn of the rebels and getting halima as her baby sitter, she has gotten more and more anti rand, she even considers imprisoning him once due to his supposed use of compulsion on the sisters who swore to him. I think she falls way short of what she could be, but is probably going to be able to cope with it eventually. especially with nynaeve as an advisor, nynaeve will notice something wrong and "heal her"/remove the compulsion.

 

 

Hold on, Egwene was under compulsion?

[jdbond]

Earlier in the thread someone mentioned how no one was quite sure how Messy avoided the Oath Rod, etc, when Egwene did the purge.

 

Anyone recall precisely what was asked during it? Declaration they were not a Darkfriend and/or Black Ajah? Because a very simple explanation would be the Forsaken considering themselves above the Darkfriends and Black Ajah. Very simple and takes advantage of the idea that if the person saying it doesn't consider it a lie, than it isn't a lie.

 

 

All servants of DO are darkfriends. Chosen can believe whatever they want but they still are DF. Otherwise Oath Rod is down right dumb;)

[Elend]

Earlier in the thread someone mentioned how no one was quite sure how Messy avoided the Oath Rod, etc, when Egwene did the purge.

 

Anyone recall precisely what was asked during it? Declaration they were not a Darkfriend and/or Black Ajah? Because a very simple explanation would be the Forsaken considering themselves above the Darkfriends and Black Ajah. Very simple and takes advantage of the idea that if the person saying it doesn't consider it a lie, than it isn't a lie.

 

 

All servants of DO are darkfriends. Chosen can believe whatever they want but they still are DF. Otherwise Oath Rod is down right dumb;)

 

And what the Chosen believes is the trigger as to what is said is true or not. Seriously. This has been well-established throughout the series w.r.t the first oath. If the speaker considers what they say true, no matter how untrue or misleading it is, they can say it.

 

ETA: I can't be the only person that believes this, nor the first to suggest it. Its downright obvious that this is a potential way to defeat the Oath Rod, even if its just hair-splitting. We see Aes Sedai do similar all the time.

[jdbond]

Earlier in the thread someone mentioned how no one was quite sure how Messy avoided the Oath Rod, etc, when Egwene did the purge.

 

Anyone recall precisely what was asked during it? Declaration they were not a Darkfriend and/or Black Ajah? Because a very simple explanation would be the Forsaken considering themselves above the Darkfriends and Black Ajah. Very simple and takes advantage of the idea that if the person saying it doesn't consider it a lie, than it isn't a lie.

 

 

All servants of DO are darkfriends. Chosen can believe whatever they want but they still are DF. Otherwise Oath Rod is down right dumb;)

 

And what the Chosen believes is the trigger as to what is said is true or not. Seriously. This has been well-established throughout the series w.r.t the first oath. If the speaker considers what they say true, no matter how untrue or misleading it is, they can say it.

 

ETA: I can't be the only person that believes this, nor the first to suggest it. Its downright obvious that this is a potential way to defeat the Oath Rod, even if its just hair-splitting. We see Aes Sedai do similar all the time.

 

 

What exactly is DF anyways? Is this an extremely flexible word and Oath Rod is not smart enough to catch that? I think when Aes Sedai define the word "DF", they mean the servant of DO. Does this mean chosen are DF too? Oath Rod is meant to catch a lie, isn't it? Can someone beat oath rod by calling black color white if they truly believe it to be true?

 

If they can, then yes I agree.

[Elend]

ETA: Quick question- does Mattin (king of Illian) show up in this book at all? I'm anxious to find out if that plotline goes anywhere.

 

Earlier in the thread someone mentioned how no one was quite sure how Messy avoided the Oath Rod, etc, when Egwene did the purge.

 

Anyone recall precisely what was asked during it? Declaration they were not a Darkfriend and/or Black Ajah? Because a very simple explanation would be the Forsaken considering themselves above the Darkfriends and Black Ajah. Very simple and takes advantage of the idea that if the person saying it doesn't consider it a lie, than it isn't a lie.

 

 

All servants of DO are darkfriends. Chosen can believe whatever they want but they still are DF. Otherwise Oath Rod is down right dumb;)

 

And what the Chosen believes is the trigger as to what is said is true or not. Seriously. This has been well-established throughout the series w.r.t the first oath. If the speaker considers what they say true, no matter how untrue or misleading it is, they can say it.

 

ETA: I can't be the only person that believes this, nor the first to suggest it. Its downright obvious that this is a potential way to defeat the Oath Rod, even if its just hair-splitting. We see Aes Sedai do similar all the time.

 

 

What exactly is DF anyways? Is this an extremely flexible word and Oath Rod is not smart enough to catch that? I think when Aes Sedai define the word "DF", they mean the servant of DO. Does this mean chosen are DF too? Oath Rod is meant to catch a lie, isn't it? Can someone beat oath rod by calling black color white if they truly believe it to be true?

 

If they can, then yes I agree.

 

Yes, they can, as I understand it. It doesn't matter what others think, only what the person with the Oath thinks.

 

And the Darkfriends are the remnants of the Friends of the Dark from the Age of Legends. IIRC, Lanfear disdains them and I know Graendal (I think its her?) contemplates on how the Chosen may not even be human anymore. Its entirely possible that, during the Age of Legends, the Friends of the Dark and the Chosen were separate groupings entirely.

 

Of course, this is all null and void if the actual spoken words are "I do not serve the Dark One", unless we go extreme and say she considers him the "Great Lord" or something crazy like that. But I don't think she's flexible enough for that.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

I always knew that Lanfear's storyline wasn't done for yet. And I always suspected that most of the people theorizing about her had gotten it all wrong. But it looks like I didn't get it right, either, if all of this turns out to be some strange Dark Side love story. I'll have to read ToM for myself to see if Terez' theory checks out with me. I can't wait! Anything for Lanfear to have a better ending than what the other dead Forsaken have gotten. I bet he planned all this from the very beginning, just as I'd always suspected. I wish he had been around to see the ending for himself.

 

And RJ clearly had a hard time killing female Forsaken. Their fates inadvertently end up being even worse than death. Kinda counterproductive, eh?

 

Now my hope is that Moridin and Cyndane somehow ride out the Last Battle, but I'm guessing they'll more likely end up dying together in the gambit to seal the Bore. Alternatively, one of these two is definitely going to end up being the "last boss" of the series.

 

And...argh! I have to wait a whole friggin' nother year to find out what happens to Lanfear. Argh!!! You have no idea how much I've been waiting to have that tension released with TOM. Curse you, Sanderson! Curse you, Jordan! *shakes fist*

[jdbond]

Okay Illtempest and flonwe1987... stop. please. just let it go.

 

and i agree with illtempest btw. I am not a fan of Egwene.

 

 

I think argument has gone beyond Rand and Egwene if you know what I mean. If this argument had actually started over Nyn and Egwene, we probably could have saved lot of bandwidth;)

[Crael123]

how is rand and mins relationship? and does rand have sex with avi again in this one or no? "easing the badger" whatever that means

[Crael123]

and i finally understood that BUT is BIG UNNOTICED THING

 

*receives blond dumb ass of the year award*

[Beren]

I always knew that Lanfear's storyline wasn't done for yet. And I always suspected that most of the people theorizing about her had gotten it all wrong. But it looks like I didn't get it right, either, if all of this turns out to be some strange Dark Side love story. I'll have to read ToM for myself to see if Terez' theory checks out with me. I can't wait! Anything for Lanfear to have a better ending than what the other dead Forsaken have gotten. I bet he planned all this from the very beginning, just as I'd always suspected. I wish he had been around to see the ending for himself.

 

And RJ clearly had a hard time killing female Forsaken. Their fates inadvertently end up being even worse than death. Kinda counterproductive, eh?

 

Now my hope is that Moridin and Cyndane somehow ride out the Last Battle, but I'm guessing they'll more likely end up dying together in the gambit to seal the Bore. Alternatively, one of these two is definitely going to end up being the "last boss" of the series.

 

And...argh! I have to wait a whole friggin' nother year to find out what happens to Lanfear. Argh!!! You have no idea how much I've been waiting to have that tension released with TOM. Curse you, Sanderson! Curse you, Jordan! *shakes fist*

 

I am thinking it will come down to this in the end.

1) Rand/Nyn/Alivia with Callandor, Moridin using TP, Logain, Narishma, Flynn, most of the Ashaman outside the Black Tower Perrin (with wolves), Mat, Lan, Galad being the key powers for the light.

2) Demandred (with the second most powerful male Sa'Angreal), Graendal, Moghedien, Shaidar Haran, Slayer (with Dark Hounds), Bashere, Taim and the Black Tower, and the Seanchan being the key powers for the Shadow.

3) Egwene (with Vora's Sa'Angreal and Gawyn), the White Tower, and Fain are wild cards in my opinion

 

I think Elayne has mostly played her part and I think we will see her death in the upcoming book though her babies will be saved.

 

So, I am wondering if anyone has now considered that TWO of Rand's main generals may be under some form of Compulsion that he knows nothing about. Ituralde has interacted with Graendal and we have no idea if she did anything to him. Bashere has spent time with Taim and Min sees a dark aura around him. I think the forces of the Light might be in more trouble than we first thought at the end of this book.

 

Going into the final battles, we have:

The White Tower about to be walloped by the Seanchan, the Black Tower falling to the Shadow as far as anyone can see, two of Rand's greatest generals possibly corrupted by the Shadow, Rand and the White Tower at odds, Rand the Sea Folk at odds, Caemlyn in flames and being overrun by Darkspawn and STILL not news on where Demandred is. I actually feel worse after thinking about where the forces of the Light are at the end of this book than I did at the end of TGS. The Darkspawn have started pouring out of the Blight and Randland is still somewhat in chaos...

 

As for you people who are talking about the Oath Rod, here is my very simple theory.

 

I think Mesaana would be insulted if you called her Black Ajah or a Darkfriend. She is one of the Chosen, far beyond any of them in rank and power. She can truthfully say she is not Black Ajah or a Darkfriend because she is not. She is a Chosen.

[fionwe1987]

So, does Nynaeve decide to take the AS test on her own? Is this spurred on by the way AS in the Tower treat her or is there another reason? I heard she massively uses Balefire to save "Lan" in the final test. Is that true? Seems like the point of the test may have been to let her get access to her repressed memory of how to weave Balefire.