Light Burn Me! : Annoying Female Characters

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

Really though are any of these characters more annoying then Eliada or Savanna?

 

Haha, yeah. I suppose I didnt really make the OP clear. I was talking more about the main Light characters, who are supposed to be heroes of a type and the guys we are supposed to be going for, but people dislike them. Elaida and Savanna, in this topic, arnt really interesting. Its obvious why people hate them, they are there to be hated.

 

I suppose what I am saying is I find it interesting why people "hate" the main, good characters who are "heroes". I mean, Egwene is the Amyrlin Seat, the most powerful (not in terms of channeling) woman on earth, dedicated to fight the Shadow.

 

So having a discussion about why people hate Elaida or Savanna is kind of pointless.. I maen, its like saying why do peopole hate the DO. its because they are the "bad guys".

[gambril]

Ya, that's kind of what I meant. She has absolutely no concern for her soldiers and just sees them as insects that don't matter at all. Concern for the wellbeing of one's citizens is the primary trait to look for in a leader and she doesn't have it. She's a petulant child who has an empire to play with, not somebody worthy of respect who will bring anything of value to her position. Perhaps, due to the nature of Seanchan society, one would be hard pressed to find anyone who'd be in a position to become Empress who'd be any better - sort of like most of the Tairen High Lords are useless tools who bring discredit to their nation - but that doesn't make her attitude any more worthy of respect.

 

There was also never any evidence that this was some kind of strategic consideration on her part or she was worried about capture and she considered it the lesser of two evils or anything like that. She just plain didn't care and that's enough to make me write her off as worth anything more than scorn and disdain.

 

Also, she's just really annoying and that makes me view everything about her in the worst possible light.

 

I think you're wrong here and I'll try to explain why.

 

First, I think you have to realize the importance of what's 'really' going on...we're given hints, but not told outrightly. What's really going on here with Tuon is she knows the prophecies, prophecies from the Essanik Cycle that we don't know. These prophecies are important too. These prophecies involve Mat as the Fox and once again, it is hinted at these prophecies are important. Then she has the foretelling giving her warning of the Fox. All this information she holds close to her chest and tells nobody, not even Selucia or her Deathwatch Guards.

 

Taking all this into account, after Mat kidnaps her she makes a promise to Mat. She makes this promise because she's certain from the omens and foretelling that her safety is ensured and this promise also allows her to observe her future husband. All of this is strategical on her part and she's doing it wholly for the Empire because the Fox is important for the Empire. She knows this. In her own way, Tuon is very clever. As for her not caring that Mat was killing Seanchan, Mat made note of her most likely not being happy about it but she would keep her promise to him.

 

Tuon for me, is easily one of the coolest/fun/interesting female characters in the series. I also absolutely love how she doesn't let an Aes Sedai make her pee her pants like every other Randlander ruler. Even Faile goes a little weak in the knees with an Aes Sedai - Galina etc. It's also neat if you pay attention that Mat makes note of this very thing and is secretly attracted to it because he loathes people who scrap and bow to Aes Sedai just cuz they're Aes Sedai ya know?

 

Go back to Knife of Dreams and read Under An Oak chapter where Joline makes her sour comment to Mat and what does Tuon do? She laughs 'uproariously' at the absurity of the comment. Little things like this about her character are endearing with the way Aes Sedai and Joline in particular are set up

[capuga]

I suppose what I am saying is I find it interesting why people "hate" the main, good characters who are "heroes". I mean, Egwene is the Amyrlin Seat, the most powerful (not in terms of channeling) woman on earth, dedicated to fight the Shadow.

 

I would argue that Tuon is actually the most powerful woman in the world (although the revolt across the ocean lessens her position a bit) despite how highly Egwene and the other Aes Sedai view their position.

[Cut Strand]

I don't see how any character, when given enough "foreground time", can't do something that cheeses off the audience.

 

No one is frustrated by Seanchan Foot Soldier #71,382. He or she isn't given any time.

 

While this is very off topic, I think it would help support Barid Bel Medar's original goal of "I like these characters despite their failings." I think everyone should pause for a moment, and try to enumerate the really annoying things each of the main characters did in this series. It really doesn't matter if you miss something because you'll still have quite a few failings (unless you have a blind spot rivaling the Dark One's shadow on saidin).

 

For example:

 

Rand.

1. Meeting Taim. Start of Lord of Chaos (well Chapter 2?). Rand was a giant ***hole. Yeah, he had a guy screaming in his brain, but to everyone else (and on several re-read throughs), his tone is just uncalled for. Even if you try to factor in his paranoia over Asmodean disappearing (the last male channeler that tried to be his teacher), Rand still comes across as a tremendous (explicative deleted). I am still in the "Taim isn't a darkfriend, he just has his own flavor of madness (so he thinks he is the Dragon's Understudy)" camp, and I think Rand's outrage at Taim wanting to be the "lesser partner" between them entirely explains (and justifies) Taim trying to make an Asha'man army personally loyal to him.

 

2. Rand with Tuon. I am jumping ahead, but it is a pretty prominent ****up. Re-read that section. Rand was all stick and no carrot. Rand could have argued that the a'dam prevents making power boosting circles, or that each sul'dam could be trained as a channeler which would (at least) double the channelers the Seanchan had to draw upon. Or even that by waiting until after the Last Battle to continue their Return (or whatever it is called) that the rest of the nations would be in massive disarray (is there much doubt that the Seanchan territory is probably going to be the most organized nation/nations afterwards?). Nations will be starving, people will welcome being "included" by the Seanchan.

 

Or you can argue that he didn't shake his stick hard enough. He could have shielded all of the damane and then pinned everyone not with him to the floor. Just to demonstrate that he could (which is harder than just outright killing them all at once).

 

3. Rand and Elaida's embassy. Meeting them alone? Really? You don't need Asha'man in there, a few maidens or *gasp* Wise Ones would've made a difference, hell, even a deaf/mute pitcher bearer. And Rand seemed to miss that the chest bearers were women? I get it, Maidens of the Spear are bad***es, but even maidens use mules and other horses for carrying stuff, plus Aes Sedai aren't Aiel.

 

4. Rand and Mat. Rand sent Mat to Salidar, then months pass (I'm not crazy, it was several months right?) without Rand checking up on Mat. He didn't even try to send Asha'man scouts to try to back up Mat. Yeah, Mat represents a new "We don't need no One Power" viewpoint, but it makes no sense. Rand knows he needs Mat and Perrin, but then doesn't keep an eye on one of them (yeah he has that weird "I see my homies whenever someone mentions their name" thing, but that doesn't count).

 

5. Rand and Grendael. Seriously? You balefired an entire castle... and you didn't sell tickets? Imagine if Rand had brought Tuon there to watch before they entered "negotiations." It would've changed everything. A clear message of, "Look what I can do, do you really want to piss me off?"

 

Others:

--Rand and Alanna (he could've balefired her, yeah it would've sucked later in the same book and in Winter's Heart, but it was an option).

--Rand and the Aiel (he starts to take them for granted).

--Rand and Hurin (yes, the Borderlanders were being stupid, but he had to go and justify their stupidity by scaring the **** out of Hurin and then sending him back to them).

tons of others I skipped over.

 

An easy one for Mat: he pressured Rand and Perrin into searching Shadar Logoth for swag.

 

An easy one for Perrin (been mentioned before and in this thread): Surrender to White Cloaks? Really? That might work with rational people, but white cloaks?!

 

My point with all this is that no one is perfect in the series. If they were, it would be really boring to read.

[aunt_pol]

Oh wow, I'd forgotten all about Nicola!!! I know she's a bit player, but I really wanted to see Birgitte or Nynaeve or Egwene or Uno or anyone kick her up and down the length of that street in Salidar.

 

Back on topic properly, I think Egwene is upsetting precisely because she showed so much potential. She's tough as boots, she can channel up a storm, and she goes off to the Aiel and learns all about honour, discipline, and meritocracy. She comes back, gets the top job.

I understand she had to play politics to cement her rule, but it's pretty clear from her PoVs that the lessons of the Aiel are long forgotten. I don't hold it against her that she forced oaths on AS: I do, that she chastised Elaida for considering the same.

She is the strongest, youngest, most widely tutored Amyrlin in donkey's years. She *could* make them brilliant. She won't, because she somehow thinks AS deserve to be top dog, to tell everyone else what to do. Gaaah. It's like someone cool getting a run at fixing a political system, and the minute they're in the door, they go native. So sad.

[Moon Sedai]

I don't see how any character, when given enough "foreground time", can't do something that cheeses off the audience.

 

5. Rand and Grendael. Seriously? You balefired an entire castle... and you didn't sell tickets? Imagine if Rand had brought Tuon there to watch before they entered "negotiations." It would've changed everything. A clear message of, "Look what I can do, do you really

 

That would have been a sight to see, Rand balefiring an entire castle, in front of Tuon, prior to negotiations, so she'd understand just who she was dealing with.

 

 

Except had he done that, we'd be arguing about the merits of it. Would it have been an abusive display of power, would we have called it bullying? I don't know.

 

Next time i balefire a castle, however, I'll be sure to sell tickets

[Celes Chere]

It's a shame so many of the female characters succumb to their more annoying personality traits. I mean, you can kind of forgive Rand for turning into a giant jerk because he's at dealing with a slight loss of sanity and struggling with some heavy issues. Granted, Egwene, Elayne, Faile and all of the females who so many love to hate have issues of their own, but it's the at times petty and self-absorbed reactions to these issues that's truly annoying.

 

Egwene: Gah. While I could ramble forever about why I so strongly dislike her, I think others have summed up more succinctly than I could why she is such a divisive character. There is one point where she is claiming that Rand is "as overweening as a pig in a pea field" and Elayne tells her that it's a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Good case of one character actually calling another out on their behaviour, even if the moment passes quickly.

 

Elayne: I actually liked her a lot at the beginning of the series. Yes, she is a little self-important, but she always seemed to have a sense of kindness, justice and a willingness to learn. However, as the series progressed, she has become more and more irrational, firstly with her poor treatment of (admittedly a little rogueish) Mat and then the debacle of hunting the BA in KoD. Plus that scene where she throws her head back and howls in fury after a few people tell her to put on some dry clothes was just irritating rather than funny.

 

This list could easily be continued to talk about the foibles of Faile, Aviendha, Min, Nynaeve, just about every female character has had at least one moment that made me groan. But what is most troubling and irritating about female characters in the WoT as a whole is their attitude to relationships. First off, everything is a power struggle! There's no such thing as an equal partnership. Everything is always about weighing and measuring just so to make sure that you can take the advantage, because those darn men apparently don't have the sense of a goat. This goes double for the Aes Sedai. Second, you have the females' attitude to domestic violence, which is really irksome. Just because you're smaller or less muscular than someone does not make it okay to stab them (Melaine to Bael), slap them (Faile to Perrin), punch them (Setalle to Jasper Anan) or fling dung at them (Elayne/Nynaeve to Mat). Granted, the idea is that the good guys are too chivalrous to respond to physical violence, so the women can scratch, kick, punch, whatever and the menfolk will calmly take it as their due? And I haven't even gone onto Tylin's antics. Bah. It could be called cultural differences, but it's a pretty annoying trait in your heroes.

[FarShainMael]

Annoying female characters:

 

1) Rumple their skirts

2) Spike their tea with forkroot

3) Tie their braids together

4) Stuff hankies up their noses

5) ..

 

oh wait, it wasn't how to annoy female characters..

 

 

Sorry, I think the suspense is getting to me!!

[Tom Sawyer]

Ya, that's kind of what I meant. She has absolutely no concern for her soldiers and just sees them as insects that don't matter at all. Concern for the wellbeing of one's citizens is the primary trait to look for in a leader and she doesn't have it. She's a petulant child who has an empire to play with, not somebody worthy of respect who will bring anything of value to her position. Perhaps, due to the nature of Seanchan society, one would be hard pressed to find anyone who'd be in a position to become Empress who'd be any better - sort of like most of the Tairen High Lords are useless tools who bring discredit to their nation - but that doesn't make her attitude any more worthy of respect.

 

There was also never any evidence that this was some kind of strategic consideration on her part or she was worried about capture and she considered it the lesser of two evils or anything like that. She just plain didn't care and that's enough to make me write her off as worth anything more than scorn and disdain.

 

Also, she's just really annoying and that makes me view everything about her in the worst possible light.

 

I think you're wrong here and I'll try to explain why.

 

First, I think you have to realize the importance of what's 'really' going on...we're given hints, but not told outrightly. What's really going on here with Tuon is she knows the prophecies, prophecies from the Essanik Cycle that we don't know. These prophecies are important too. These prophecies involve Mat as the Fox and once again, it is hinted at these prophecies are important. Then she has the foretelling giving her warning of the Fox. All this information she holds close to her chest and tells nobody, not even Selucia or her Deathwatch Guards.

 

Taking all this into account, after Mat kidnaps her she makes a promise to Mat. She makes this promise because she's certain from the omens and foretelling that her safety is ensured and this promise also allows her to observe her future husband. All of this is strategical on her part and she's doing it wholly for the Empire because the Fox is important for the Empire. She knows this. In her own way, Tuon is very clever. As for her not caring that Mat was killing Seanchan, Mat made note of her most likely not being happy about it but she would keep her promise to him.

 

OK, that would be an interesting take on it if there were any evidence at all that this was the case. I didn't see her being a wise leader doing things for the sake of the Empire, I saw her as a spoiled little girl who abandoned the Empire when it needed a leader in order to follow Mat around for personal reasons and then stood idly by not caring while her soldiers were ambushed and slaughtered. Her POVs have her rationales and they all have to do with the damane's foretelling about her and not anything to do with any other prophecies or the good of the Empire.

 

She abandoned the Empire at a crucial time for it and had no concern for the deaths of the people who were getting killed defending it. These aren't the hallmaerks of a good leader or even of a marginally decent person.

 

 

Tuon for me, is easily one of the coolest/fun/interesting female characters in the series. I also absolutely love how she doesn't let an Aes Sedai make her pee her pants like every other Randlander ruler. Even Faile goes a little weak in the knees with an Aes Sedai - Galina etc. It's also neat if you pay attention that Mat makes note of this very thing and is secretly attracted to it because he loathes people who scrap and bow to Aes Sedai just cuz they're Aes Sedai ya know?

 

Go back to Knife of Dreams and read Under An Oak chapter where Joline makes her sour comment to Mat and what does Tuon do? She laughs 'uproariously' at the absurity of the comment. Little things like this about her character are endearing with the way Aes Sedai and Joline in particular are set up

 

I, on the other hand, think that Tuon is one of the most poorly written characters in the entire series. Other than because there's a prophecy that he'll marry her, I have absolutely no idea what Mat sees in the woman. Their relationship makes less sense than Rand and Elayne's and they're just totally incompatible and have nothing in common and the scenes where RJ tries to make them so just don't work for me at all. It's true that she does have some cool scenes, but Elayne and Faile have a couple of cool scenes as well - it doesn't make them less annoying as a whole.

 

I suppose that you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree about the level of Tuon's totally and absolute suckiness.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Play chess.

 

You've got to sacrifice Knights and Bishops and Fortifications and a whole lot of Pawns to win the game and maintain the Kingdom.

 

Being a dynast doesn't leave much room for being a compassionate human being. Tuon does it better than most historical examples as demonstrated by her treatment of

Selucia and Karede.

 

But, your point is well taken. We are each going to have a slightly different set of characters that push our buttons. Nothing wrong with that.

[Tom Sawyer]

Play chess.

 

You've got to sacrifice Knights and Bishops and Fortifications and a whole lot of Pawns to win the game and maintain the Kingdom.

 

Being a dynast doesn't leave much room for being a compassionate human being. Tuon does it better than most historical examples as demonstrated by her treatment of

Selucia and Karede.

 

But she wasn't sacrificing them to win the game and maintain the Kingdom. She was ignoring the Kingdom while off on a personal errand and letting them die for goals unrelated to anything that would help the Empire and being totally unconcerned about that fact.

 

When the Tairen and Cairheinian nobles do selfish and petty things which harm others for no other goal beyond their own petty little gains, everyone's rightly down on them. When Tuon does the same thing, all of a sudden it's society's fault instead of her fault and there's this abstract bigger picture she's working towards which wasn't mentioned in the book that somehow makes it a positive action on her part. I just find that odd.

 

 

But, your point is well taken. We are each going to have a slightly different set of characters that push our buttons. Nothing wrong with that.

 

Ya, but maybe I'll get lucky and in the paperback edition of TGS, they'll change the ending and Rand will have his big revelation thing after balefiring the useless little twit instead of before.

[D'Selver]

I registered here just to vent about this very topic. It took me a while to find the appropriate thread in which to let loose but I think this is the best one.

 

In preparation for ToM, I've taken to reading the books in the series in reverse chronological order. It has been revealing but has had a side consequence. Whereas I used to see this series as just a fun story to read, I'm beginning to look forward to the end of the series when I can put it behind me forever. Why? Because of the women.

 

Never have I seen a series where 100% of the developed female characters act so uniformily manipulative and with such disdain and lack of respect for the opposite sex. Yes I realize that male Aes Sedai broke the world and this is mostly a matriarchal society. But...but... BAJEEBUS! When I am in private reading or listening to the books, I have taken to yelling out obscenities at the female characters.

 

Where a female character in this series is developed, we find in that female character that there is NO communication, NO trust, and almost NO selfless support for others.

 

The only character I can thank of that almost escapes this is Min. Even she attempts manipulation on occasion but at least it's only "You're too weak right now to go fight X. Wait till later" and not the "I have long term plans to control you for benefits that I see best for me/the world/our people."

 

Would it have hurt Egwene to converse with Rand humbly in his dream? Think of how much pain and suffering these women cause people because in their bullying pride they have to put men's backs up with derogatory comments and commands that must be obeyed.

 

I want to see all of them humbled. I'm tired of the piety. I sometimes wonder what kind of relationship RJ had with women. I have heard writers sometimes play 'opposites' and turn real-life people into fictional menacing opposites of themselves. I sure hope that is what he did here. I'm going to believe the best about Harriet because the alternative is too scary.

 

PS: and oh light yes! Please put an a'dam around Tuon/Fortuna's little neck. ..and Cadsuene! Collar all the women who can channel. I think the Seanchan have the right of it! Absolute power corrupts...absolutely!

[Feral]

Hmm I'm going to rant about someone who probably hasn't been mentioned yet. Aviendha. To be fair to her, I think some of my dislike might not be so much for her but the Aiel attitude in general. However she's the most commonly seen Aiel so I'll take it out on her anyway.

 

It's her inability to see things from a Wetlanders point of view, and how her first thought for solving any situation is always violence. Not to mention I've always been very sceptical of her relationship with Rand. Oh, and the way she thinks about Elayne (oh my gosh she's so brave and amazing, I love her more than myself blah blah blah). And the way she thinks that doing stupid little things such as wearing silk will make her weak. And the fact she seems completely incapable of understanding that humans are capable of conflicting behaviour/emotions eg. being brave in one situation, but scared in another. Ok there were more things to moan about than i originally thought...

[Jblaylock]

Actualy, I like both Faile and Egwene a LOT.

Let me also state that I am a straight, married man, who is somewhat of a sexist pig most of the time. But, alas, I respect both them girls.

 

Egwene is a badass. She has her faults, which can be annoying, but in TGS

when she stood in the gaping whole high up in the White Tower and blasted the sh!# out of those Raken

, I mean, that was just pure badassery.

 

Faile can be annoying too. But she is strong, smart, and ruthless, when she needs to be. Plus, she's not perfect looking, with her hook nose, but still pretty damn sexy. And she likes it rough, which is a plus.

 

Also love Min, Moraine, and Nyn.

 

The only female charecter that I like NOTHING about is Elayne. Blech

[Daekar]

I think the sentiments expressed in this thread are intriguing: it had not occurred to me to hate any of the characters, becausethey aren't anything unrealistic. If they were all perfect, they would be boring... as it is, each has a distinct personality that distinguishes them and simultaneously is representative of their national and economic background. One thing that RJ does a great job with is he makes sure people don't change too quickly, and they only act on the information they have. This is one reason that people in the real world come to different conclusions about the same things: they're starting from different places, have different information, and have different goals and ideals. They are written realistically in this regard. As to the scheming... well to most dense modern men, this seems unusual and inexcusable. However... any man who has worked in a place largely dominated by women knows that these are absolutely par for the course in many places. Not all women scheme, but many are more sensitive to it than men are. Particularly in the historical period in real life which corresponds approximately with WoTworld, women were supposed to be more passive than men. It was improper for women to physically act, so they influenced their world the only way that was left to them: social power. While it might go against our modern feminist leanings, the plotting and scheming is only a slightly exaggerated version of the constant intrigue which is often present in western female-dominated social or economic structures.

 

Disclaimer: not everybody schemes. I was floored when I first encountered it, and I still dislike it... I have simply resigned myself to its destructive inevitability.

[Dbob]

Well, if scheming is a by-product of a demographic group that has no formal access to power, that would kinda leave out all of the women in Randland. Plus, part of my problem with the women is that most of them seem to be collapsing into one personality, and that one is unpleasant.

 

Men with overt access to power in our own cultures are no strangers to scheming, ever read Machiavelli?

 

Back here in reality, not only are different social systems going to produce unique idiosyncrasies, they are also going to throw up a spectrum of personality types, and will also have a similar spectrum when it comes to competence. Frankly the most unrealistic thing about RJ's women is how very few of them are in any way competent. That's statistically very unlikely back down here on the ground.

[Daekar]

Yes, I read The Prince and his other work advocating a Republic rather than a principality. In general, people scheme according to their socioeconomic standing. Despite the fact that our WoT supergirls are relatively empowered, they are a product of and exist in a social structure where women are generally physically passive compared to men. Because they are of greater social and economic standing, their scheming naturally increases with them. Although, while male scheming at lower socioeconomic levels tends to be less than women of the same standing, once they rise to a certain level the difference disappears... as you said, the Italian city state conflicts about which Machiavelli wrote are a great example of this.

 

I'm afraid I have to disagree about the female characters being incompetant though... whatever gave you that idea?

[Guest belial]

I used to dislike Faile but now I like her more since we started to have more of her PoVs.

 

The only female characters I still hate are Cadsuane and Elaida.

 

Both women suffer from delusions of grandeur.

 

Cadsuane may be a legend, but she still doesn't realise that Rand is THE legend. Treating him like a wayward boy hasn't gotten anywhere so I don't understand why she kept doing it. When she was introduced as a wise old AS I thought we'd finally have someone pick up where Moiraine left of as his advisor but she seems to seriously believe she can bully him into obedience like all the deluded false dragons she dealt with before.

 

Elaida...I understand she's supposed to be this power-mad tyrant, but she seems to push the whole immature bully angle. I"m curious what will be her fate in ToM.

[honeybadger]

Elaynes the worst bercause all she does now is bash on Rand for getting her prego.

IT TAKES TWO TO MAKE A BABY ELAYNE SO ITS HALF YOUR FAULT!!

[Darth Krewl]

Oh man, where to begin?

 

The more I've read of these books, the harder I've found it, not to like but not to dislike, nearly all female characters. I can only think of four whom are okay for me, Moiraine, Aludra, Lanfear and Graendal and when 50% of those are villains, you know something's wrong with the profile of most others. The rest, either I don't care for or I strongly dislike.

 

IMO, this doesn't have anything to do with the perfection/imperfection of the characters or with the way Jordan conceived them, much less with sexism. Every time an author is able to create a memorable character(s), they will leave their mark on the reader. You can love them, hate them, support them or object to them, but as long as they don't go unnoticed, that means that the author succeeded at developing his/her character(s).

 

It's just that IMO, Jordan did make most of his female characters very annoying and obnoxious. Whether they're the product of his own subconscious or the result of the female-dominated world that he envisioned ('cause of the taint or what-have-ya), Jordan's female characters do share some very unlikable and questionable traits.

[Jon Paul]

[. . .] but the Aiel attitude in general.

 

The Aiel have really come down in my eyes. They're just as selfish as the Cairhienin and Tairen nobles who are always plotting. All they care about is themselves. They refuse to see the bigger picture. It's still Aiel vs the world. And you know what really gets me? Sorilea says the Car'a'carn has to be hard. Well the Car'a'carn made himself bloody hard and then she starts bitching about it. They need to make up their minds and stop being so cryptic. And they didn't care about what Rand became outside of its ramifications for themselves. They didn't care about the Treekillers. They didn't care about the Wetlanders full-stop.

 

Random Aiel #8766: "You must be hard.

 

[TWO MONTHS LATER]

 

Random Aiel #0988: "Too hard."

Rand: *Balefire*

[SecretlyNinja]

Hmm I'm going to rant about someone who probably hasn't been mentioned yet. Aviendha. To be fair to her, I think some of my dislike might not be so much for her but the Aiel attitude in general. However she's the most commonly seen Aiel so I'll take it out on her anyway.

 

It's her inability to see things from a Wetlanders point of view, and how her first thought for solving any situation is always violence. Not to mention I've always been very sceptical of her relationship with Rand. Oh, and the way she thinks about Elayne (oh my gosh she's so brave and amazing, I love her more than myself blah blah blah). And the way she thinks that doing stupid little things such as wearing silk will make her weak. And the fact she seems completely incapable of understanding that humans are capable of conflicting behaviour/emotions eg. being brave in one situation, but scared in another. Ok there were more things to moan about than i originally thought...

 

Aviendha is a weird one for me. IMO, she hasn't figured out who she is yet, and tries to compensate by being tough and independent. She also seems to have latched onto Elayne as the paradigm of what a woman should be.

I think she's an interesting character, but I can't really bring myself to like her, either. She says the words "Rand al'Thor" way too many times.

[SecretlyNinja]

Oh man, where to begin?

 

The more I've read of these books, the harder I've found it, not to like but not to dislike, nearly all female characters. I can only think of four whom are okay for me, Moiraine, Aludra, Lanfear and Graendal and when 50% of those are villains, you know something's wrong with the profile of most others. The rest, either I don't care for or I strongly dislike.

 

IMO, this doesn't have anything to do with the perfection/imperfection of the characters or with the way Jordan conceived them, much less with sexism. Every time an author is able to create a memorable character(s), they will leave their mark on the reader. You can love them, hate them, support them or object to them, but as long as they don't go unnoticed, that means that the author succeeded at developing his/her character(s).

 

It's just that IMO, Jordan did make most of his female characters very annoying and obnoxious. Whether they're the product of his own subconscious or the result of the female-dominated world that he envisioned ('cause of the taint or what-have-ya), Jordan's female characters do share some very unlikable and questionable traits.

 

That pretty much sums up how I feel about the female character in WoT. I hate several of them pretty hardcore, *coughcoughELAYNEcoughcough* but I hate them as people, not as characters. I enjoy reading their POVs (sometimes) and I think they're all interesting and unique. I just also think they can be horrible, horrible people that I would avoid like the plague in real life.

[Haran]

My beef is more with the attitude of all women in Randland than one specific woman. If they felt that they were superior to men in some way, say the opposite of how we treated women back in the 60s for example, I would be totally fine with that. A society where men are the providers and women are the organizers for example would be all right I guess. An interesting twist on feminism where the females are the first and men are the second. A de Beauvoir turn around.

 

But Randland is not like that at all. It feels like some sort of deranged form of feminism movement gone horribly wrong, where women instead of rising up and proclaiming themselves equal to men or at least throwing of the mantle of the “female role”, they instead rose up proclaimed women morally superior and man hating lesbians to boot.

 

I mean seriously, I am surprised there are born any babies in Randland at all.

 

 

 

Edit;I dislike Eggy the character the most though. I feel that all other characters have changed for better or worse during the series. Eggy has gained much power, but is still the obnoxious twat as she was back in the two rivers.

 

Elayne at least has changed from a spoiled brat to a somewhat unhinged pregnant grown woman. Unhinged or not, she is not the same girl.

[SylvanFox]

Let's see... I hated Nynaeve at first but here lately I like her. (She even had the sense to let Lan do what he felt like he needed to do (yeah, she manipulated the situation a little, but only to give him a chance. plus she could have said stay and he would have stayed.) I liked Tuon for a little bit. I was convinced she'd change quickly. Now she's just pissing me off.

 

I can't remember whether or not I liked Elayne at first, but now I can't stand her. Who gives a damn about the throne of Andor? And why does she have to be so damn... stuck-up? Mat's the only one who seems to notice that she just isn't that cool. And I think Aviendha and Elaye never would have become such good friends if they weren't crazy about Rand. Maybe Aviendha got so used to thinking of Rand as Elayne's woman, and she decided Elayne must be great because she had got his attention. And the whole bitching about him getting her pregnant? First of all, she was the one who sent everybody out of the room so she could screw him. Second, she didn't drink the stupid I-don't-wanna-get-knocked-up heartleaf stuff. She is so stupid.

 

I hate Elaida, Carlinya, Cadsuane, Lelaine, Romanda... basically most of the Aes Sedai. I liked Egwene, but now she pisses me off. "The Tower is the most important thing. The world can never make it without the Tower. Nothing but the Twoer could bring the world together. But we always see the Tower screwing things up.

 

A lot of the Sea Folk women piss me off. But sometimes I kind of like their attitudes.

 

OMG when the Kin first appeared I wanted to balefire them. Now... I just don't care about them that much. They're okay, but they're still kind of bitchy. Just like the rest of them.

 

I think my number one most hated is... currently Elayne, followed closely by Egwene. They know Tarmon Gai'don is coming, they are supposed to be Rand's friends, but do they even seem to care? Noooooo.