Asmodean

[Barid Bel Medar]

it is obviously a Troll. Just ignore it.

 

Seriously, who actually can say that stuff with a straight face.

 

 

I'm not ignoring it. There are different levels of death in WOT. There's dead, then there's dead by balefire, then there's dead in a metaphorical sense. Perhaps Asmo ceased to exist. before he was Asmodean he was Joar Addam Nesossin. Rand severed his connection to the True Power, his connection to the Dark One. He was considering changing sides. When he changed from light to dark, I bet it could have been said that Joar Addam Nesossin died, and Asmodean was born. Perhaps he changed back to light, and Asmodean died.

 

It is a joke.

 

 

I am not a troll. I am dead serious. Just because you dissagree with me does not mean that I'm a troll or that my viewpoint is wrong. The whole series if full of stuff that supports my line of reasoning above. For you to deny that and call me a troll is just, well, narrow minded, stuborn, and unwelcoming of new users.

 

I said you were trolling beacuse you say "there is heaps of stuff" but never show anything. Show some credible evidence.

 

 

I don't need to post evidence. My reasoning has been that the evidence posted by others against my argument is speculative, interpretable, vague statements made in a way that was clearly avoiding a direct answer, or a direct denial of Asmodean's continuing existance.

 

 

"Death took him" doesn't mean he died. It could mean other things, which have already been touched on. It's not solid evidence. Its reasonable to believe he died, but not solidly established or proved.

"He is roadkill" does not mean he died. I won't even go there. For you to use that means that you are accepting your personal interpretation of a metaphor as valid evidence, which, by rule, would mean that you would have to accept my interpretation as evidence as well.

"How and Where he died" could be reffering to an event that has not happend yet. If he died later on, then the how and where are irelevant to the DO being able to ressurect him.

 

I'm not saying he still lives. I'm simply saying that there has been no definate quote saying clearly that he has actualy died in the sense that he no longer exists in the story.

 

Why so many are getting so damn angry over something as silly as me having a different viewpoint... I haven't a clue. All I can say is, grow some thicker skin? Don't let a viewpoint upset you so much, simply because it's a different viewpoint than your own.

 

You do have to show your evidence. Or else dont post.

 

Its a waste of time and post saying "well i think its this" but I dont have to tell you why.

 

If you post your opinion, expect to have to defend it or dont post.

[jdbond]

Discussion between DO and Demandred is proof enough that Asmodean is dead. If Lord of grave cannot tell who is dead and who is not, who else can. They never found him, not even his body which leads me to believe he was Balefired.

[Jblaylock]

 

You do have to show your evidence. Or else dont post.

 

Its a waste of time and post saying "well i think its this" but I dont have to tell you why.

 

If you post your opinion, expect to have to defend it or dont post.

 

 

 

Geez man. What kind of a statment is that? This is just a book series and an internet forum to disguss what you like, disslike, or otherwise think of the series, is it not? It isn't like I'm trying to prove some new scientific theory, or win some dang court case. Of COURSE I CAN and WILL post stuff like "I think this" because that's the fun of disgussing fiction stories. If you take this stuff so seriously that you require evidence in order for someone to be worthy of posting what they think or like about a fantasy story, then I feel sorry for you.

[Graendals favourite]

Ok, I'll look on this, whatever it is about, on saturday. Now I am drunk, and drinking more, but I did promise to look on the real discussions (which is the wheel of time discussions). (Hope the moderator allows for such a turn for frase, though of course everything is metaphorical ;))

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

You do have to show your evidence. Or else dont post.

 

Its a waste of time and post saying "well i think its this" but I dont have to tell you why.

 

If you post your opinion, expect to have to defend it or dont post.

 

 

 

Geez man. What kind of a statment is that? This is just a book series and an internet forum to disguss what you like, disslike, or otherwise think of the series, is it not? It isn't like I'm trying to prove some new scientific theory, or win some dang court case. Of COURSE I CAN and WILL post stuff like "I think this" because that's the fun of disgussing fiction stories. If you take this stuff so seriously that you require evidence in order for someone to be worthy of posting what they think or like about a fantasy story, then I feel sorry for you.

 

Of course you can post whatever you like. I encourage it. But thats not going to stop people from calling your theories a load of rubbish.

 

Thats the point of discussion. You state what you think and people discuss it and tell you how and why you are wrong or right. If you dont want people to as questions about your posts, then create a blog or website, dont come on a discussion forum and expect your theories not to be challenged.

 

You can state your theories, I welcome it, its great to get everyones perspective. And you PoV is no less important than any others. But when you post it, people are going to disagree, and if you want to lend it any credibility, then you have to defend it or else accept that its a load of rubbish.

 

Complaining about pepole disagreeing with you and that they knock your theory and you refusing to post in its defence? sounds petulant. This is a wheel of time debate forum, DEBATE and discussion being the key terms. You discuss each other's posts, of course you need to back it up.

[Barid Bel Medar]

However, after reading the posts, I was pretty out of line I think.

 

My point still stands, but I was a bit of a jerk.

 

So I apologize for the "troll" thing and suchlike. Wasnt the best thing. However, this is wheel of time fansite, people get really passionate about it. I am rather mild compared to some people. So watch out

 

 

But yeah, even though I still stand by my points, i was a jerk in conveying them.

[didymos]

Of COURSE I CAN and WILL post stuff like "I think this" because that's the fun of disgussing fiction stories.

 

Uh, OK fine but what's there to discuss if all you're interested in is saying "I think this". You seemingly don't care about what the books actually say about this or what RJ has said because, well, you think what you think, period. I just....don't see the point of even bringing it up if that's the case. If there's no actual, positive evidence for something, there really isn't anything to talk about other than the problems with the idea. Seriously: what else is there to discuss about this notion? What do you expect people to say about this particular thing you think? "That's cool...OK, bye." or "Neat. I think that too!"? I'm not saying don't post about it. I just don't understand why you'd want to if you find the idea of people pointing out all the flaws and problems so irritating.

 

Just to add a bit: Yeah, we could all extrapolate about what might happen or who might be who based on the assumption that your idea is right. But that's basically writing fanfic, not discussing the books.

[Graendals favourite]

Well, this should go for every thread. What is written is true for the third Age, and as much as is written, for any other age.

[Vermillion]

I never read about him taking a fall. I wonder if that means that he died in the skimming place?

[Jblaylock]

Barid Bel Medar, I did not get upset about anyone challenging my opinions. I thought it was out of line to ask me not to post (my opinions of a fantasy fiction novel, keep in mind, and nothing more) without "evidence" to support my opinions (of a fantasy fiction novel, keep in mind ). It's just a story, a great story at that, but a story nonetheless. Opinions about it, thoughts on it, and ideas should be welcome and encouraged without need of evidence.

 

[Barid Bel Medar]

Barid Bel Medar, I did not get upset about anyone challenging my opinions. I thought it was out of line to ask me not to post (my opinions of a fantasy fiction novel, keep in mind, and nothing more) without "evidence" to support my opinions (of a fantasy fiction novel, keep in mind ). It's just a story, a great story at that, but a story nonetheless. Opinions about it, thoughts on it, and ideas should be welcome and encouraged without need of evidence.

 

 

Indeed, you are correct. But also you got to accept when your opinion is generally thought to be completely way off, other posters are going to disagree, and you will need to supply a vaild arguement or be dismissed as a fool.

 

As i said, i did not convey my point very well. I did not mean to say you should not share your ideas. But I suggest if you dont want to back up your theory and complain when people dismiss it for foolishness, you probably should not post at all. Beacuse thats what this is, a discussion. If you are unwilling to discuss your theory and just say "no, I dont care, dont say anything about my opinion. Period." well, this forum is not for you.

 

Thats all I was saying. Not that your theories are any less than if it came from others, or your theories are less important than any others. You have a right to express those opinion, I did not mean to suggest otherwise.

[didymos]

I never read about him taking a fall. I wonder if that means that he died in the skimming place?

 

You mean that "long jump" thing? It's just a euphemism for death. It's a variation on the phrase "take the big jump", which originated back in the Old West. As a pure guess, I'd say it referred to hanging, which typically involved a sizable drop that, if you were lucky, snapped your neck instantly.

[Luckers]

Ok Barid, you've made your point. Let's leave it at that, shall we.

 

I never read about him taking a fall. I wonder if that means that he died in the skimming place?

 

You mean that "long jump" thing? It's just a euphemism for death. It's a variation on the phrase "take the big jump", which originated back in the Old West. As a pure guess, I'd say it referred to hanging, which typically involved a sizable drop that, if you were lucky, snapped your neck instantly.

 

Yup. This.

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

oooh ohh! I know! It was Mr.Green in the Kitchen with the Candlestick! :D

[Barid Bel Medar]

Ok Barid, you've made your point. Let's leave it at that, shall we.

 

 

Haha, yep

 

Sorry, I always tend to overdo making points and trying to explain. My bad.

[Oliver]

Well I think the proof of it is in the books. LTT obviously knows Taim

When Rand sees Mazrim Taim Lews Therin rages that he should have killed him long ago.

They Just Met so how long ago could LTT have killed him. As for it being Asmodean no one knows the books have yet to be finished this is my belief and obviously I am not alone in it. One awesome thing about having found these books is that they are not yet finished we dont KNOW the ending yet. In a year this type of discussion will be moot. Enjoy it while you can and trust me I am gonna be so happy when I am right about this. It seems so obvious (Taim appears right after Asmo dies.) I am surprised I am the first to bring it up.

[didymos]

Well I think the proof of it is in the books. LTT obviously knows Taim

 

LTT is also a lunatic who will, amongst other things, start carrying on about Ilyena whenever pretty much any woman comes to mind or when one Rand cares about is present and is often unsure of his own identity. Also, there's this thing that often shows up in literature called a "red herring", which given RJ's numerous statements to the effect that Asmodean is dead and Taim is not Demandred, means that this incident is one of those.

 

In any case, you should pay closer attention to that first meeting. LTT's first "words" in the scene are simply a listing of the Forsaken when Rand thinks that when it came to the amnesty, he'd only turn away one of the Forsaken. That list includes all of them. Even the women. Oh, and the list begins with Sammael. Guess that means Taim is Sammael then...oh, wait. When he finally sees Taim, LTT starts back up about Sammael and Demandred. Again: Sammael gets first mention. After that, it's just generic ranting ( "Kill him!" "Kill them all!" ). Oh and a brief interlude where LTT goes off about smashing Seals. Not once in all of that does LTT give the least indication that he actually recognizes Taim. It's far from clear that he's even aware of and reacting to anything other than what's in Rand's head, because as Rand watched Taim walk over the first time, he was thinking about male channelers and the lack of them since the Breaking.

 

Now, for the rest of their encounters:

 

2nd meeting, LoC Chapter Eleven: At the farm. Generic ranting, no mention of names or Forsaken.

 

3rd meeting, LoC Chapter Twenty-Eight: The Gray Man incident. Generic "Must. Kill." stuff. No mention of names or Forsaken.

 

4th meeting, LoC Chapter Forty-Two: Rand goes to hand out rank badges. LTT tries to grab the Source and does the "should have killed him" thing. However, the trigger was two Asha'man, Kisman and Rochaid, seizing saidin when near Rand, when they came to retrieve the obnoxiously arrogant and recently unconscious Tolvar. So, yes, there's a repeat of the same line that referred specifically to Demandred earlier in the book, but are we supposed to now believe he's actually Kisman or Rochaid? Guess not, given that they both get killed in Far Madding later on. LTT does rant some more in that chapter, and the trigger is indeed Taim. However, it was just due to him being an ambitious and insubordinate jerk, and the ranting is all generic. No names, but lots of LTT moaning about how he is himself a terrible person and deserves to be killed too, etc.

 

5th meeting, LoC Chapter 55: Dumai's Wells. LTT rants generically about killing. Rand ignores him, so we don't get to "hear" LTT. Rand actually assumes Taim is the trigger this time, but dudes are channeling saidin everywhere, and one Asha'man, Gedwyn, got pissed at Rand and started to go after him when Rand saved Gawyn's life just before Taim showed up. Bad assumption, Rand: weren't you paying attention back in Chapter Forty-Two?

 

6th meeting, aCoS Chapter Two: Actually, just a continuation of the 5th one. Also a Perrin POV. Evidentially slim, to say the least.

7th meeting, tPoD Chapter Fourteen: Not actually a meeting, but very interesting. Taim sends Rand a letter, delivered by Torval. At the end Rand sends Narishma to fetch Callandor. That act causes LTT to return after a long absence, and he mentions that he wants to kill someone. He actually names a name: Torval. The Forsaken don't come up at all.

8th meeting, tPoD Chapter Twenty-Nine: Taim shows up after the attack on Rand, when he and Min are with the now child-minded Fedwin Morr. It's a Min POV, however, and unlike Perrin's chapter, it's not just evidentially slim, but worthless.

 

So, tell me: how is it that "LTT obviously knows Taim"? It's in fact not obvious at all. And the idea that he both knows him and that Taim is Asmodean is, well, utterly unsupported and ludicrous.

[Oliver]

Cool well that does not actually say anything this is after all a theory. Which I have it could be wrong it could be right we don't know yet. Obviously LTT knew Taim he said I should have killed him LONG AGO. Long ago IMO would be before EotW. Secondly this would mean that Taim is either an AS or one of the Foresaken/Chosen who else would be that old?

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

The forsaken DONT draw attention to themselves and when they DO it is normally along the lines of " Hey Rand come and get some." If taim was/is a Forsaken why didn't he go attack rand at the cleansing? Surely he would have been questioned on why he didn't attend. On top of that if he was a Forsaken im sure Moridin being Nae'blis would have wanted at least a Meeting with him.

 

Moridin hasn't mentioned a forsaken at the BT, SH hasn't mentioned any assets at the BT.

 

If Asmo was Alive he would have his full powers returned by now, he WOULD have met up with other forsaken, he WOULD have tried to get revenge. Hell there would have been at least ONE PoV from him in any of the books since his death just to point out he's around.

[didymos]

Obviously LTT knew Taim he said I should have killed him LONG AGO.

 

Uh, no, there's no "obviously" about it. Read the part where Rand first meets him and pay close attention. There's nothing that indicates LTT was more than vaguely aware of Taim at best. There is no evidence that proves what you are claiming. Seriously: none. LTT says nothing about Taim specifically. He doesn't say anything about Taim reminding him of anybody. He doesn't say anything about Taim looking like anybody. He doesn't say anything about the man at all or give any indication that he's even aware Rand is talking to Taim. The text is far too vague to draw any such conclusions. All we can say is that LTT wants to kill Demandred and the Forsaken, because that's who he's actually talking about. It certainly can be taken to mean he's talking about Taim, and RJ definitely wrote it that way on purpose, but just because it can be, and just because you've chosen to take it that way, doesn't mean that's actually what's going on. As I said: Rand is thinking about the Breaking and men channeling at that moment. Just before that, and before Taim even enters the room, he was thinking about the Forsaken. How do you know those weren't the triggers for LTT's rant about killing, you know, the Forsaken?

 

Long ago IMO would be before EotW.

 

And? Of course it means before EotW. Rand didn't meet any Forsaken until then, and certainly not Sammael or Demandred (the two who get mentioned at the start of both rants in this scene, in that order) so what else could it mean? I assume your point is that LTT is talking about the Age Of Legends, to which I again say...and? He tends to do that a lot, what with having lived in it.

 

Secondly this would mean that Taim is either an AS or one of the Foresaken/Chosen who else would be that old?

 

AS? An Aes Sedai? Really? Yeah, no: they don't live that long. And no, actually, it means nothing of the kind. You first have to show LTT thinks Taim is someone he knows, and you can't, because no one can. The text does not provide any evidence for it. The text doesn't even provide enough evidence to conclude that LTT is aware that Rand exists at that point, much less that he's aware of Taim. It merely allows one to interpret it that way, which is a different thing entirely.

[Barid Bel Medar]

To Oliver and Jblademaster, your theories of Asmodean are finally crushed Sorry.

 

Here is a quote from Luckers' own interview with Brandon.

 

Oh, I can tell you one thing that was squashed. To be perfectly honest, I’d always secretly suspected that Asmodean was still around, and that was totally squashed. So there you go. Part of me always thought, “Oh, Robert Jordan isn’t telling us because Asmodean is around; he’s doing something,” but no, he’s just dead. He’s totally dead. But you know, I think Robert Jordan had even confirmed that and I hadn’t seen the interviews until after I started working on the series. I’m pretty sure that somewhere out there is a Robert Jordan confirmation, a “He’s toast” comment.

 

YOu can find the full interview here: http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/52714-my-interview-with-brandon-sanderson/page__pid__1653977#entry1653977

 

So yeah. Asmodean is gone. he didnt come back. End of story.

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

Zombie Asmodean?

[didymos]

Zombie Asmodean?

 

Don't start. *shakes fist*

[Bob T Dwarf]

He asked about when LTT's voice said that he should've killed Taim long ago. I haven't read TFoH in quite some time now, so I don't remember what that was all about, myself.

 

LTT never said anything about killing Taim.

 

What he said was:

They halted a few paces before him at a gesture from Tumad, Rand opened his mouth, but before he could speak, Lews Therin rose up in a frenzy in his head. Sammael and Demandred hated me, whatever honors I gave them, The more honors, the worse the hate, until they sold their souls and went over. Demandred especially. I should have killed him! I should have killed them all! Scorched the earth to kill them all! Scorch the earth!

 

The fact that this particular rant seems to be triggered by Taim's appearance is more foreshadowing for how things are likely to work out between Rand and Taim. Rand will try to give Taim his due and Taim will hate him for it. Mostly because Rand is the one in the position to bestow honors and Taim in the position of one receiving them. To Taim, exactly like it was for Sammael and Demandred, it should be the other way around.

 

Whether this has resulted in Taim going over to the Shadow or not still remains to be seen. Indications certainly seem to point that way.

[Mik]

He asked about when LTT's voice said that he should've killed Taim long ago. I haven't read TFoH in quite some time now, so I don't remember what that was all about, myself.

 

LTT never said anything about killing Taim.

 

What he said was:

They halted a few paces before him at a gesture from Tumad, Rand opened his mouth, but before he could speak, Lews Therin rose up in a frenzy in his head. Sammael and Demandred hated me, whatever honors I gave them, The more honors, the worse the hate, until they sold their souls and went over. Demandred especially. I should have killed him! I should have killed them all! Scorched the earth to kill them all! Scorch the earth!

 

The fact that this particular rant seems to be triggered by Taim's appearance is more foreshadowing for how things are likely to work out between Rand and Taim. Rand will try to give Taim his due and Taim will hate him for it. Mostly because Rand is the one in the position to bestow honors and Taim in the position of one receiving them. To Taim, exactly like it was for Sammael and Demandred, it should be the other way around.

 

Whether this has resulted in Taim going over to the Shadow or not still remains to be seen. Indications certainly seem to point that way.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/8369-mazrim-taim-the-loose-cannon/page__view__findpost__p__1115349

 

LTT knows Taim is Ishamael resurrected.