Asmodean

[didymos]

http://www.dragonmou...ost__p__1115349

 

LTT knows Taim is Ishamael resurrected.

 

Uh, yeah that makes sense: Taim orders that Rand be killed, no matter what, after the first attempt failed. Then, Moridin, who is without any doubt Ishamael, shows up and tells at least Kisman "Kill him if you must". Way to go there, alleged Ishataimidin: give two somewhat contradictory orders using two separate identities in rapid succession.

 

And what's with people concluding that LTT is talking about anybody except the only two Forsaken he actually names? First we get Asmodean, who was confirmed as dead for good, and now it's Ishamael who didn't make another appearance until the book after the one this scene was in.

 

 

Also, a lot of your "evidence" in that post is utterly non-specific. Taim has blood in his past and his future? That's pretty much true of everyone in the entire series. Even the confirmed pacifists. And also, Min's viewings sometimes do include elements of the person's past. Lan in tEotW for instance: she saw an image of a babe in the cradle with a sword as part of one viewing. Later, we learn that's one piece of the tale of Malkier's fall. Another is Hanlon: her viewing tells her he'll have more rapes and murders on his hands. IOW, it also let her know he had a bunch racked up already. A third is Birgitte: Min sees adventures with a younger and older man. Thanks to Mogs, Birgitte is now older than Gaidal, whereas it used to be the other way around. They're just never solely about the past.

[Mik]

http://www.dragonmou...ost__p__1115349

 

LTT knows Taim is Ishamael resurrected.

Uh, yeah that makes sense: Taim orders that Rand be killed, no matter what, after the first attempt failed. Then, Moridin, who is without any doubt Ishamael, shows up and tells at least Kisman "Kill him if you must". Way to go there, alleged Ishataimidin: give two somewhat contradictory orders using two separate identities in rapid succession.

It doesn't make sense to you. That's a point in my favour though! How often do the Chosen call Ishamael (or Moridin) 'more then half mad' or something along those lines. Or that his or the DO's orders made no sense? Or Darkfriends like Bors who can't make heads nor tails of his orders.

 

Luckily for you, I can show you a quote it makes -some- sense. Because it's the Watcher who tells us;

"Sammael did not know how truly he spoke. Small increases in chaos could be every bit as important as large."

 

Ishamael is all about increasing chaos. Misdirection and contradicting orders are a part of that. That makes some sense on a larger scale;

If you want to disrupt a pattern to weaken it (the Pattern the Wheel weaves in this case) you can do this by just making a mess.

We don't need to fully -understand- Ishamaels behaviour or orders ourselves to realise they are being given.

 

And what's with people concluding that LTT is talking about anybody except the only two Forsaken he actually names? First we get Asmodean, who was confirmed as dead for good,..

I don't understand why people come up with Asmodean either, if that makes you feel better. ;)

Asmodean. Now that's absurd.

 

and now it's Ishamael who didn't make another appearance until the book after the one this scene was in.

Just because you didn't see Ishamael resurrected, doesn't mean he wasn't. In fact, since I see many signs of Ishamael in "Taim", there are clues that something happened at Shayol Ghul about the same time that Taim was 'freed'; the Blight retreats for 2 miles along it's border. It's like Shai'tan temporarily re-routing his energy to something else instead of focussing on it's hold on Reality. I think the moment the Blight retreats, is the moment Taim was used to Transmigrate Ishamael (and a little more). The book is called "The Shadow Rising" and the chapter is called "Deceptions". The Shadow has Risen alright. And Siuan was deceaved alright in thinking that the Blight retreating was actually a good thing!

 

Wouldn't you call it a funny 'coincidence' that Siuan hears of Taims 'escape' and hears of the Blight retreating in the same scene?

 

Also, a lot of your "evidence" in that post is utterly non-specific. Taim has blood in his past and his future? That's pretty much true of everyone in the entire series. Even the confirmed pacifists.

Utterly non-specific, eh? You don't read well then. My point was that Min -SAW- blood in "Taim" his past in her Viewing. That's very, very significant. And very specific.

 

And also, Min's viewings sometimes do include elements of the person's past.

Like I said, appaerently you don't read very well. Min sees the future in her Viewings. That's it. And that's the whole -specific- point. In her Viewing of "Taim", she tells us she SAW his past.

 

Lan in tEotW for instance: she saw an image of a babe in the cradle with a sword as part of one viewing. Later, we learn that's one piece of the tale of Malkier's fall.

Where did Min say in that Viewing it was Lan's past? In my point about Taim Min states it. You're assuming her Viewing is about Lan his past, because it fits the picture. But we have Jordan and Min saying differently.

 

Another is Hanlon: her viewing tells her he'll have more rapes and murders on his hands. IOW, it also let her know he had a bunch racked up already.

Talk about "evidence"! And -again- if you just read a little further (or better), you'd have seen Mr Ares brought that same point up a few posts later. I'll just copy my reply to him:

 

 

 

 

As for Min's Viewing, that does nothing to indicate Taim is Moridin. Not unless you want to take her Viewing of Daved Hanlon having rapes and murders in his past and future as evidence he is also Moridin? That seems a bit crackpot even for you.

*groans* More blunt shallowness! Pfffff. What you describe as her Viewing was her Viewing -with- added info about the man. The actual Viewing said nothing about the past. That was Min's own interpretation of the fact that he had been part of Rahvins White Lions.

 

This is her Viewing:

He glared at her back as she took a goblet of punch and waved the servant away, and Min’s breath caught at the aura

that suddenly flashed around him, bruised hues so dark they seemed nearly black.

“Don’t trust that man, Lady Caraline.” She could not stop herself. “He will murder anyone he thinks is in his way; he’ll kill for a whim, kill anybody.” She clamped her teeth shut before saying more.

 

Then comes the extra info:

Caraline glanced over her shoulder as the hatchet-faced man turned away abruptly. “I could believe it easily of Daved Hanlon,” she said wryly. “His White Lions fight for gold, not Cairhien, and loot worse than the Aiel. Andor became too hot for them, it seems.” That with an arch glance at Rand. “Toram has promised him a great deal of gold, I think, and estates I know.” She tilted her eyes up to Min. “Do you know the man..?”

 

And we know for a fact that Min knew who the White Lions were and who they actually fought for:

“I’ve heard of the White Lions,” Rand said coldly. “Look among them for Darkfriends, and you won’t be disappointed.” They had been some of Gaebril’s soldiers; Min knew that much, and little more, except that Lord Gaebril had really been Rahvin. It stood to reason that soldiers serving one of the Forsaken would include Darkfriends.

 

So after the extra info from Caraline and the knowledge Min already had from the White Lions/ Raahvin, Min combines that and her Viewing to:

Min could only shake her head. How to explain what she did know about Hanlon now, that his hands would be red with more rapes and murders before he died? If she had known when or who . . . But all she knew was that he would. Anyway, telling about a viewing never changed it; what she saw happened, no matter who she warned. Sometimes, before she had learned better, it had happened because she warned.

She assessed Hanlon has been a villian for a long time now. A man capable, willing and present in situations where he could do what Min saw he would most certainly do a lot more in the future.

 

The big difference with Mins Viewing of Taim is that she SAW blood in Taims past in her Viewing. But she already knew that. And that is what she can't put her finger on! She knew it... so she doesn't realise it's so wierd she actually saw it!

 

One more point you seem to step opver reaaally easy (shallow anyone?); Min did have a Viewing about Taims past. You wave it away like it's nothing with a wrong interpretation of events concerning Hanlon. What do you make of that fact then?

 

 

Given Moridin's orders being different to Taim's in WH, and that Rand has met the both of them, it seems unlikely given you have nothing to support it.

*rolls eyes* arrogance. (did I mention shallow yet?)

Every other Forsaken has thoughts about Ishamaels/ Moridins orders being hard to follow/ madness. You'd think it was concistent of Moridin and 'Taim' (actually Moridin) giving slightly different orders. It's his MO; 'small increases in chaos could be as important as big ones'!

 

 

A third is Birgitte: Min sees adventures with a younger and older man. Thanks to Mogs, Birgitte is now older than Gaidal, whereas it used to be the other way around.

You're using half quotes to support a point that's already disproved by RJ's words alone. Min saw multiple lives of Birgitte. And since she's a Hero of the Horn, why shouldn't Min see multiple future lives of Birgitte? How is seeing more adventures then could fit in one lifetime be proof of a Viewing of the Past? Wrong!

 

 

They're just never solely about the past.

You're making stuff up as you go? Wrong!

[Sharaman]

He asked about when LTT's voice said that he should've killed Taim long ago. I haven't read TFoH in quite some time now, so I don't remember what that was all about, myself.

 

LTT never said anything about killing Taim.

 

What he said was:

They halted a few paces before him at a gesture from Tumad, Rand opened his mouth, but before he could speak, Lews Therin rose up in a frenzy in his head. Sammael and Demandred hated me, whatever honors I gave them, The more honors, the worse the hate, until they sold their souls and went over. Demandred especially. I should have killed him! I should have killed them all! Scorched the earth to kill them all! Scorch the earth!

 

The fact that this particular rant seems to be triggered by Taim's appearance is more foreshadowing for how things are likely to work out between Rand and Taim. Rand will try to give Taim his due and Taim will hate him for it. Mostly because Rand is the one in the position to bestow honors and Taim in the position of one receiving them. To Taim, exactly like it was for Sammael and Demandred, it should be the other way around.

 

Whether this has resulted in Taim going over to the Shadow or not still remains to be seen. Indications certainly seem to point that way.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/8369-mazrim-taim-the-loose-cannon/page__view__findpost__p__1115349

 

LTT knows Taim is Ishamael resurrected.

LTT also "knows" lots of other things, which are basically delusions created by a planet-sized cuckoo-class brain.

More importantly Taim knows he's M'Hael.

Moridin knows he's Naeblis

And Rand knows Moridin is Elan.

[Oliver]

I am 99.99% positive that Taim is a Foresaken not just another DF as for the quote when Taim and Rand first meet. LTT specifically says I should have killed him long ago. Which brings up the original argument. HE KNOWS TAIM from the past.

[Shimmer]

I could answer your question, but I refuse to be the BUT of your joke.

 

Har har har.

 

lol

[yoniy0]

Okay then, it seems to me that Brandon's latest quote makes the point of this thread moot. Asmodean's dead. If you wish to discuss the manner of his death, you already know that's not for this board. This thread seems to have instead turned into an all-in-one topic. So, if someone believes there's still something to discuss here, email me. Until then, I'm locking this thread, and you're more than welcome to find/open another one about Taim / Min's viewings. I'll even split posts from this topic to a new one, if you want. Again, email me if you do. Address in my sig.