13x13 Trick

[Thanatos]

A thought occured to me this morning.

 

So the 13x13 Myrdraal, Channeller trick can forcibly turn a channeller to a DF.

 

Could this same trick be used by the Light to forcibly turn DFs? Obviously you would need to find a replacement for the Myrdraal, but if the BA can do it with the power, why couldn't the Light?

 

Thoughts?

[Lisa Campbell]

Seems like it should be possible but I don't think so, well not directly with the power.

 

For BA, if the oaths to the DO were simply removed and the person's dreams warded, it makes sense that they would be able to 'come to the light' and avoid the DO finding them again (unless he makes someone hunt physically anyway - don't think he'd bother). Verin implied that she would have tried this strategy if she could have gotten her hands on the rod.

[BrandonXRoss]

Maybe the myrdraal could be replaced by warders? It's about the closest thing I can think of.

 

There's almost no way that the AS would or could even research something like that though. They would need to know the method, and they might even need to see someone turned by it to understand how to do the opposite of it.

 

There's also the likelihood that a "Light" version of it wouldn't work. Changing someone in that way, and by force is more of a dark, almost generically evil, tactic. I would think the Light version would work more like healing; removing corruption and psychological injury, and hoping that the person's innate nature brings them to the light...

[Duskfire]

Fades are like the Shadow incarnate. Thats why the person is turned; it seems to be along the lines of those channelers channeling through a Fade to corrupt a persons soul. Theres nothing on the good guy side that could be called the Light incarnate.

[FarShainMael]

Fades are like the Shadow incarnate. Thats why the person is turned; it seems to be along the lines of those channelers channeling through a Fade to corrupt a persons soul. Theres nothing on the good guy side that could be called the Light incarnate.

 

Apart from the Dragon himself, perhaps - see EotW51. Trouble is, there's only one of him!

[Arkane101]

The Dragon isn't necessarily the light incarnate, luckily for the forces of the light he is on their side this time round, but according to RJ himself, the person who has been spun out of the Dragon's soul has in the past been on the DO's side.

[haloun]

what about the nym? or an ogier?

[didymos]

what about the nym? or an ogier?

 

Nym are pretty much a total unknown, so no way to say for sure. However, RJ said the soul of a Nym is an otherwise normal one borrowed from the "pool" awaiting rebirth, which suggests they're nothing special as far as "light embodiment" goes. As for Ogier, RJ has said they can be Darkfriends, thus they're no better for this purpose than anyone else. In any case, forcing someone to be a good guy by magically brainwashing them is still a pretty evil thing to do, so....

[toss the dice]

Even if this were possible I dont think anyone of the light would do it. You are talking about compulsion. Regardless of how awesome we think Rand and the Creator are, the good and evil in the world is a balance and people always have a choice (except when forced by the dark one, which is why compulsion is considered evil). If the light did this sort of thing, they would be no better than the shadow

[Roxinos]

Even if this were possible I dont think anyone of the light would do it. You are talking about compulsion. Regardless of how awesome we think Rand and the Creator are, the good and evil in the world is a balance and people always have a choice (except when forced by the dark one, which is why compulsion is considered evil). If the light did this sort of thing, they would be no better than the shadow

 

I don't think there's anything wrong in the slightest with Compelling someone to turn to the Light.

[Sharaman]

Fades can sort of channel - they can link to channelers at least. This is probably TP driven and its different from human channeling.

It's not precisely Compulsion anyway - the channeler-victim's own nasty impulses are amplified.,

 

The Light doesn't have "anti-fades" at its disposal. So there probably isn't a way

of doing a Lightsaide 13x13 and forcing people to obey their best impulses.

 

There may be some other way of forcibly removing the 13x13 weaves perhaps. But that wouldn't make the subject "a good person". Just bring them back to normal. .

[yoniy0]

Fades [...] can link to channelers at least.

Setting aside the issues of channeling the TP (which I really don't think they can, not in any form, otherwise relatively weak AS would have trouble with a single Myrddraal, which according to Lan they don't), where does this come from? Shariam described it as channeling through 13 Fades, if I'm not mistaken. And while we've heard of Fades being linked to a fist of Trollocs, the use of the same verb shouldn't imply an actual circle - it's just another form of link. We don't know that the Fade has any control of it, or that they do it by themselves, or voluntarily for that matter. Just that sometimes they're linked.

[TristanWebb]

What about chora trees?

 

They exude peace and well being which are kind of opposite the DO.

[gloweye]

I think that 13x13 can be...healed. But an opposite that makes people a better person? Sounds like whitecloak logic to me.

[Vardar]

I don't even think it can be healed. When it was described, it seemed rather permanent.

 

That being said Fades can't channel, they can sense channeling, and it's believed they are born from the channeling gene, from the human side of Trollocs.

[toss the dice]

Even if this were possible I dont think anyone of the light would do it. You are talking about compulsion. Regardless of how awesome we think Rand and the Creator are, the good and evil in the world is a balance and people always have a choice (except when forced by the dark one, which is why compulsion is considered evil). If the light did this sort of thing, they would be no better than the shadow

 

I don't think there's anything wrong in the slightest with Compelling someone to turn to the Light.

 

I mean YOU might not think their is anything wrong with it but the Aes Sedai certainly do. Their is a reason compulsion is considered one of the forbidden weaves in the White Tower.

[kght22]

A thought occured to me this morning.

 

So the 13x13 Myrdraal, Channeller trick can forcibly turn a channeller to a DF.

 

Could this same trick be used by the Light to forcibly turn DFs? Obviously you would need to find a replacement for the Myrdraal, but if the BA can do it with the power, why couldn't the Light?

 

Thoughts?

would never be done because compulsion is evil. when i first clicked on this thread i thought you were talking about using this on black ajah aes sedai who were questionable. but while it would be very possible to compel a good aes sedai to try to be even better, the light wouldnt likely use such a tactic. let alone 13x13 requires myrdraal, and i don't think you will find any of them who are sympathetic to the light

[Maleshub]

The 13X13 uses the One Power. It doesn't change the core of the person; it just puts on a powerful cloak. I would think that the One Power can be used to remove this cloak. One question I threw a few weeks ago on the topic was whether a circle of 13 Aes Sedai and 13 Ashaman can change a person to the light. Now, the question would be if that AS - Asha combo can heal it. My hunch is that Nynaeve and/or Flinn leading such a circle might find a solution.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Compelling people to believe what you believe? As said earlier, sounds like Whitecloak logic to me.

 

Technically, the DO could be right in a universal moral sense, he could be preventing some greater disaster by sacrificing the Wheel. Not likely, but point being, you can't just mess with peoples brains to make them think how you want and say its fine to do so. It is an inherently "evil" thing by most standards, specially in a democratic world like our own.

 

The AS and such are certainly against it in any way. They like their right to disagree with everyone and everything that is not themselves.

 

It depends on the definition of a "Light Side" 13x13 though. I don't even know if there CAN be an opposite.

 

Would they turn out like Fain and Mordeth, hating the DO they corrupt themselves?

 

I don't think it is possible to use an "opposite", the turning magnifies the vices of a person. The opposite would magnify virtues.

 

I think it has something to do with the TP, as the Fades are partially made by the TP. And the TP is the essence of the DO, it corrupts and destroys its user. Just like the taint does a similar thing. I think it filters the DO's essence and spreads it into the person.

 

There would have to be a "Light Power", the Creator's power used to perform an reverse 13x13, if I am thinking correctly.

[EmperorMayhem]

What about this? A channeler who's been turned by the 13x13 trick, gets delved by Nynaeve and she heals them in a similar way to healing insanity...

Or perhaps, it takes a linked Rand and Nyn, and they cleanse them kinda like Saidin- just on a smaller scale. The way the 13x13 trick is described as 13 darkfriend channelers channeling through 13 myrddrall sounds like a taint going into them...

 

These people were changed against their will, and releasing them of that wouldn't be evil, cuz it likely wouldn't be a puppet 'good' person, but back the way they were to begin with

[kght22]

What about this? A channeler who's been turned by the 13x13 trick, gets delved by Nynaeve and she heals them in a similar way to healing insanity...

Or perhaps, it takes a linked Rand and Nyn, and they cleanse them kinda like Saidin- just on a smaller scale. The way the 13x13 trick is described as 13 darkfriend channelers channeling through 13 myrddrall sounds like a taint going into them...

 

These people were changed against their will, and releasing them of that wouldn't be evil, cuz it likely wouldn't be a puppet 'good' person, but back the way they were to begin with

 

that would be healing. removing compulsion of any kind is healing, even if a good guy did the compulsion (*cough*verin*cough*). and if it worked it would allow free will again. although i suspect that if anyone can possibly heal a 13x13 it has to be nyn, and i doubt she will be in a situation to figure it out, i just hope some of those caught in that trap can be held till after tg. though if damer gets there he might be able to figure it out and pull the nasty tainted compulsion out of their minds. but most likely they're all gonna die, along with allot of good guys =[. but regardless getting rid of the 13x13 would be healing, compelling people to do good would be evil, even if it is a compulsion to do good.

[baalsmistress]

Verin was an ambiguous character. Yes she betrayed the darkfriend Aes Sedai, but you could argue that by making the initial choice to swear fealty to the dark one, instead of dying, she betrayed the light sided Aes Sedai. Not to mention that she says she has committed many acts in service of the dark one that would be hard or impossible to forgive.

[kght22]

Verin was an ambiguous character. Yes she betrayed the darkfriend Aes Sedai, but you could argue that by making the initial choice to swear fealty to the dark one, instead of dying, she betrayed the light sided Aes Sedai. Not to mention that she says she has committed many acts in service of the dark one that would be hard or impossible to forgive.

scary she is/was. her final sacrifice though was massive. i've always wondered if she was the brown who messed with hurin. i don't remember seeing a reaction that he had to her in tdr, and at the same time it is possible that he would never be able to remember exactly which brown it was if it was her. but yes verin likely did some extremely bad things as a df. but just like ingtar, to paraphrase, no-one can walk in the shadow so long that they can not come back to the light (damn i wish i could remember the proper quote)

[baalsmistress]

The dark one's hold on her was certainly repleat with blind spots. She was not permitted to betra the black ajah before the las hour of her life (can't think of any reason for that phrasing other than blunt plot device. Easier and safer to not put the last hour of life phrase into the oath). But she was recrd keeping since the day she swore the oaths.

 

I would surmise that she was able to get away with that within the oaths, by relying on the dark one's inherent love for backstabbing and competition among his followers. She also provided more help to Egwene than could ever be called prudent by the black. Explaining the nature of TAR and giving her access to it was never in their interests.

 

In essence, she betrayed the light while remaining loyal to it, even though she did not respect the rules of the Aes Sedai when it came to conduct, beyond concealing her dark-aligned nature. I don't think tehh term dark-friend was ever appropriate to her.

[kght22]

The dark one's hold on her was certainly repleat with blind spots. She was not permitted to betra the black ajah before the las hour of her life (can't think of any reason for that phrasing other than blunt plot device. Easier and safer to not put the last hour of life phrase into the oath). But she was recrd keeping since the day she swore the oaths.

 

I would surmise that she was able to get away with that within the oaths, by relying on the dark one's inherent love for backstabbing and competition among his followers. She also provided more help to Egwene than could ever be called prudent by the black. Explaining the nature of TAR and giving her access to it was never in their interests.

 

In essence, she betrayed the light while remaining loyal to it, even though she did not respect the rules of the Aes Sedai when it came to conduct, beyond concealing her dark-aligned nature. I don't think tehh term dark-friend was ever appropriate to her.

there might be rules for aes sedai in the third age, but in the second the only rule would be to serve all. and verin deffinately passes on that rule, although i still question just how honest and true her sacrifice was. she was likely as smart as ishy, and likely as good at philosophy, so it could be an insanely clever ruse. (sorry but if i came to the conclusion that everything happens over and over again the same way every time i would only feel that i accomplished something by ending it, and no i dont think that is what happens in their world, i think many things are the same but for the most part it is always different).