Super Spoiler PoV

[Barid Bel Medar]

For the first time I actually fear for Rand and co. against a Forsaken. Graendal is going to own. She is my second favorite Forsaken after this chapter. Demandred of course, is still the greatest :)

 

People keep saying this, but I can't help but wonder why it is the "first" time. In the early books (before we find out how useless they are) the threat they represent is palpable. Even after Be'lal is killed they still represent a danger. He was beating Rand, and would have had his hands on Callandor had Moiraine not intervened. And with Lanfear always popping up where she was not wanted... I don't know, in the early books they were a legitimate threat.

 

It's not until several books into the series and several failures by the Forsaken that they become officially useless. I think the turning point for me had to be Sammael's death. All that buildup and the idiot gets killed by some sentient mist. Yawn.

 

I think you are misunderstanding my point here.

 

Sure, in the fight Be'lal was winning at one point, but im not talking about the threat so litrally. Any of the DF's in the first few books could have killed Rand at one point, but it doesnt mean I wasnt confident he could overcome them. Be'lal was the same, he was too arrogant. Yes he was winning for a time, and it was Moiraine who killed him, but still, I never thought much.

 

Same with Ishamael, yeash, he was pretty good, but still insane. Rand was a fumbling fool, he had barely learned to grasp saidin, yet he still managed to defeat them/hold them off long enough for moiraine to do something.

 

But here is Rand with a ton of knowledge and a heart as cold as ice. He has the Chodean Kal, and his plan is brilliant. He says himself, he cannot outsmart Graendal, and that this was the only chance he had of killing her, unless she fought out in the open (which she wont do). Yet Graendal STILL outsmarts him. At every turn in that scene she outsmarts him fully. Now I could understand if he was still the Two Rivers Farmer he was, ignorant of the world, or even if he was unwilling to kill a woman, that would be understandable.

 

But he is at his best (or worst). Knowledge, a brilliant plan, the motivation. And yet she manages to outsmart him.

 

thats why I fear for Rand and co. now.

[9horsehitchr]

I did feel a bit cheated by the scene, not that I wanted Graendel dead specifically, but it did smack of an overwhelming sense of convenience that Graendel escaped just in the nick of time, had a proxy on hand to do the compulsion etc. seemed like a sort of old fashioned redaction to the end of the previous episode of Batman, where the caped crusader is tied up and the bomb has 5 seconds before it blows up.

 

Likely theory for ToM are that Grendael is after Nyn and Min, Cadsuane comes a cropper trying to defend them (following a similiar pattern to Moiraine, but dying rather than being 'Finned'), causing Rand to realise cry at her loss (laughter and tears, he has already done the laughter) and that he can trust women who can channel ~ the lesson Min has alluded to? Rand intervenes senses Grendael using the TP when Graendel is backed into a corner and then Elayne drowns graendel in a bath. Ok, so the end of the theory needs some work...

 

9horsehitchr

[ThatGuy]

First off, nice job Luckers on Graendal. You pretty much nailed the section perfectly.

 

As someone fairly vocally calling Graendal dead, I'm trying and failing not to feel too bitter about this :) The logic behind calling her dead wasn't that it was impossible to write, but that it was just too implausible. And I stand by the logic. IMO, the scene is ridiculous and probably one of the worst I've read in WOT. Before anyone jumps on me, I've read most of Brandon's work and am a big fan, but this scene in particular was just very poor.

[Deadsy]

I did feel a bit cheated by the scene, not that I wanted Graendel dead specifically, but it did smack of an overwhelming sense of convenience that Graendel escaped just in the nick of time, had a proxy on hand to do the compulsion etc. seemed like a sort of old fashioned redaction to the end of the previous episode of Batman, where the caped crusader is tied up and the bomb has 5 seconds before it blows up.

 

This happens to the good guys all the time though. It's about time that a bad guy escapes in the nick of time.

[Aquarius]

This happens to the good guys all the time though. It's about time that a bad guy escapes in the nick of time.

Yes indeed !

 

But I believe some people here resent Brandon because Graendal was "logically dead" for more than a year, and then ... SURPRISE ! still here !

We know however that Brandon had already written a big chunck of ToM when tGS was finished and that the cut between them was some kind of a butcher's work. I would have loved to see that Graendal's PoV in tGS but I understand why it didn't make it. Other timelines had to go forward (Rand's and Egwene's of course).

[Duskfire]

I dont really consider what Graendal did to be outsmarting Rand. She was lucky, and intelligent about what she had at her disposal, but still lucky. She was lucky she had access to the TP, to Delana and Aran`gar being there, etc etc. She'll probably do some damage to Rand before going down, but I guess I dont consider her to be suddenly awesome because of it. Don't get me wrong, she is a cool Forsaken, but it was 950% luck. Having the TP really gave her a huge advantage.

[WMTom]

Good job Luckers, picking this one out.

 

A thought on the odd thing with Avi's four kiss. We know Elayne is going to have twins. I believe Avi will also have twins. This leaves Min. I think she, too, will have twins. The odd part: Two of Avi's kids are Min's. Graendel is focused like an arrow on Nyn and Min. I think she will strike Min. I know Min is not pregnant at this time but she certainly has had the time to get that way. Min is mortally wounded beyond Nyn's ability to heal, but on delving, Nyn realizes Mins babies still live inside her. Nyn uses Avi as a surrogate mother (assuming Avi and Rand get their groove on again). Four babies for Avi. Crazy thought.

[Duskfire]

Graendal showing up to Shayol Ghul in the first place to explain herself would be pretty awesome.

 

Graendal: Have I not done well Great Lord?

DO: HELL NO. WHATS WITH YOU KILLING OTHER FORSAKEN ALL THE TIME

Graendal: Well err...

DO: AND WHATS WITH YOU HAVING CLEAVAGE HERE? YOU KNOW ITS ONLY ME AND SHADAR HARAN RIGHT, AND MESANNA DIDNT OVERLY LIKE HIS ADVANCES LAST TIME

SH: lol

DO: I WOULD MINDTRAP YOU WITH MORIDIN BUT HE ALREADY HAS ENOUGH TO HANDLE WITH CYNDANE AND ERR.. WHATS THE OTHER ONE? THE ONE WHO HASNT DONE ANYTHING SINCE WELL, BASICALLY FOREVER

Graendal: Moghieden

DO: WAIT REALLY? HER? SHE STILL ALIVE? ANYWAY, I WILL MINDTRAP YOU WITH THE GREATEST TROLLOC EVER. I HAD TO IGNORE SAMMAELS SOULS TO BRING BACK THIS GUY BUT IT WAS WORTH IT

Narg: Narg enjoys cleavage.

[Deadsy]

Nyn uses Avi as a surrogate mother (assuming Avi and Rand get their groove on again). Four babies for Avi. Crazy thought.

 

I've had a similar thought to this, that maybe Min can't have kids. The whole first-sister bonding thing makes it seem like it's something that can be done via channeling. Especially since we can do it with science. (I'm having trouble figuring out what the point to Min not being able to have kids is in the story, but oh well).

[kasper11]

Anyone else think we might end up with a Graendal-Avhienda showdown?

 

Graendal lost all of her power objects in the balefire. She also likes to hide out in abandoned places of power and historical significance. Why not Rhuidean?

[Vealdan]

 

But he is at his best (or worst). Knowledge, a brilliant plan, the motivation. And yet she manages to outsmart him.

 

thats why I fear for Rand and co. now.

 

He is not at his best. I think that's the point. He is emotionless and cold but that doesn't mean he is in his best. He is undoubtedly one of the smartest characters on the light side (and dark btw). He is always noticing and picking things no one else does. He devises elaborate plans that usually succeed (example: capturing Ashmodean, cleaning Saidin). But with all his intelligence, there is something missing. Maybe it is his refusal to come in terms with his feelings and maybe more. I don't know exactly what. But he is not at his best. He is still developing, growing...

[algspkr]

Anyone else think we might end up with a Graendal-Avhienda showdown?

 

Graendal lost all of her power objects in the balefire. She also likes to hide out in abandoned places of power and historical significance. Why not Rhuidean?

 

It's places of power and beauty. Rhuidean is far from abandoned and I'm not sure that it has much beauty.

 

My question is where did Delana learn compulsion, as we know that Graendal did not teach it to her.

[Maji]

Anyone else think we might end up with a Graendal-Avhienda showdown?

 

Graendal lost all of her power objects in the balefire. She also likes to hide out in abandoned places of power and historical significance. Why not Rhuidean?

 

It's places of power and beauty. Rhuidean is far from abandoned and I'm not sure that it has much beauty.

 

My question is where did Delana learn compulsion, as we know that Graendal did not teach it to her.

 

Black Ajah 101.

 

I'm sure that's how Verin learned how to use Compulsion on Alanna to bond Rand. Or at least that is what I think she did :3

[GB]

Anyone else think we might end up with a Graendal-Avhienda showdown?

 

Graendal lost all of her power objects in the balefire. She also likes to hide out in abandoned places of power and historical significance. Why not Rhuidean?

 

It's places of power and beauty. Rhuidean is far from abandoned and I'm not sure that it has much beauty.

 

My question is where did Delana learn compulsion, as we know that Graendal did not teach it to her.

 

Black Ajah 101.

 

I'm sure that's how Verin learned how to use Compulsion on Alanna to bond Rand. Or at least that is what I think she did :3

 

did verin compel alanna to bond rand?

[algspkr]

Anyone else think we might end up with a Graendal-Avhienda showdown?

 

Graendal lost all of her power objects in the balefire. She also likes to hide out in abandoned places of power and historical significance. Why not Rhuidean?

 

It's places of power and beauty. Rhuidean is far from abandoned and I'm not sure that it has much beauty.

 

My question is where did Delana learn compulsion, as we know that Graendal did not teach it to her.

 

Black Ajah 101.

 

I'm sure that's how Verin learned how to use Compulsion on Alanna to bond Rand. Or at least that is what I think she did :3

 

Verin did not compel Alanna to bond Rand, and did not truly know Compulsion. She knew something similar that she pieced together from half remember weaves of wilders.

[Sharaman]

Most wilders have a basic version of the compulsion weave - get daddy to buy them a new dress, get boyfriend to drool, etc. It's generally beaten out of them in the Tower but some BA specimens retain those weaves. Verin actively cobbled it back together, Liandrin actually tried it on Moggy so Delana isn't so surprising. I'm surprised Nyn didn't have it, given how bossy she is. Woulda thought she'd have Compelled everyone in Emond's Field to take enemas regularly.

[b3arz3rg3r]

She was lucky. She didn't figure out the balefire thing until the last minute, which leaves me wondering why she had Delana do the Compulsion in the first place. Makes no sense. There was an explanation given for Aran'gar, but Delana? In retrospect, it has holes in it.

 

Agreed. I can accept her survival, but this was a bit too forced.

 

I wonder whether this means that Graendal will actually do something which will have an impact on atleast minor characters. She's been so far in the background that she only affected unnamed characters. The DO forcing her to move in the open would be good thing.

[Tenesmus]

Anyone else think we might end up with a Graendal-Avhienda showdown?

 

Graendal lost all of her power objects in the balefire. She also likes to hide out in abandoned places of power and historical significance. Why not Rhuidean?

 

It's places of power and beauty. Rhuidean is far from abandoned and I'm not sure that it has much beauty.

 

My question is where did Delana learn compulsion, as we know that Graendal did not teach it to her.

 

1. Does that mean she lost her pinky ring angreal she found at Sammi's pad?

2. Rhuidean--I've been thinking Demadread may have filled that vacuum when the Aiel all got up and left

3. Delana could have learned Compulsion from Verin

[Guest JimmyThornburg]

graendal is cadsuane..avi finds out, balefire.

[Azral]

I liked Graendal's theological musing, as short as it was. However it lacked the poetry of Robert Jordan. Here its just flat out stated that the Creator creates and the DO destroys. I would have liked something more like Verin's viewpoint - "embodiment of paradox and chaos, destroyer of reason and logic, breaker of balance, the unmaker of order, and the opponent of the Creator."

 

I guess Brandon just cuts straight to the point heh

[MoonBeams]

Since all of you guys have discussed Graendal's POV thoroughly, I'm surprised that

 

1) Who is this "Yenet" Graendal killed and is worried that Rand might remember?

2) "She instantly wove a gateway to one of her most secure hiding places. Cool air wafted in from an area of the world where it was morning, not early evening" -- if she is is Arad Doman (early evening) and travels to place where its still morning that has to got to be Shara. I remember her telling Sammael about Shara's ruling hierarchy so she must have been there and interacted with the Sharan natives.

3) There are some weaves that can only be crafted by the True Power, hmmmm.

4) Whatever the Createor could build, the Dark One could destroy -- talking about drilling a hole in the seal in the first place;however, that has to work both ways as well. Whatever the Dark One can do, the Creator can destroy it as well (True Power).

5) None of the Forsaken knows that Rand channeled the True Power (except Moridin)so he would be able to detect someone using the True Power around him.

6) LOVED LOIAL'S PROLOGUE!!!!!!!

7) Galad is awesome and I can't wait for when he united with his half-brother Rand, they both adhere to duty.

8) Padan Fain is on his way to Shayol Ghul and it will be interesting to see what action/counter-action there will be with the Dark One and an force that hates the Dark One but is just as bad.

9) Malenarin's POV was simply awesome and a very good prologue to the Last Battle that is about to occur.

[Barid Bel Medar]

1. YOu cannot detect TP use like saidar/saidin.

 

2.We hear heaps of stuff about the AoL. Its entirely possible that there is something more to "Yenet" but I dont think so, just a reminder that Graendal is from the AoL.

 

3. I agree with you about Shara. I almost forgot about that, good work.

[bialio]

One thing I find curious is how quickly Aran'gar accepted that Graendal was channeling the TP.

 

We know from the end of KoD that men can't sense a woman holding the source IF said woman has masked her ability - so Graendal could have just masked her ability and then used saidar to get the same point across.....

 

The fact that she was actually using the TP is cool, and leads to some interesting possibilities with Rand detecting her. But Aran'gar should have been a bit more skeptical - although intelligence in the Forsaken is rather rare as we all know.

 

btl.

[Aagaard]

Hey all.

 

About Graendal's survival being convinient I completely disagree.

 

She clearly states that the reason why she makes Delana use compulsion is that she wants to lay a false trail for Rand, which is why she asks Delana to give him some random instructions. She will not do this herself in case Rand will be able to see through her random instructions.

 

I also loved the Fain POV. The mist thing he is doing now seems pretty scary to me. He basically comes out saying that he is finally ready to kill Rand, and will go for it now.

 

Can't wait for TofM.

 

 

And now the Last Battle has actually started.

[MoonBeams]

1. YOu cannot detect TP use like saidar/saidin.

 

 

"Male or female, no one could see or sense the weaves - not unless he or she had been granted the privilege of channeling the True Power"

 

Rand channeled the true Power in the previous book, so that does qualify him for sensing when its channeled around him.