Super Spoiler PoV

[wvlr2]

While this isn't a DEM (the idea of True Power, weaves that only the True Power can do such as Healing Madness temporarily, and so on are all established), the entire sequence of events is very specific and convenient in order to get Graendal out of there.

I think that Ishy told LT during the opening sequence of TEoTW that LTs AS could heal him in a gentler way but all Ishy had was the TP which he then used to heal LT very Painfully.

[Ryan Reich]

I think that Ishy told LT during the opening sequence of TEoTW that LTs AS could heal him in a gentler way but all Ishy had was the TP which he then used to heal LT very Painfully.

 

But he also said that one of the sisters could only give him "a few moments". The Dark One's healing, though more brutal, also healed what the One Power would not have been able to.

[perrin51]

I think that Ishy told LT during the opening sequence of TEoTW that LTs AS could heal him in a gentler way but all Ishy had was the TP which he then used to heal LT very Painfully.

 

But he also said that one of the sisters could only give him "a few moments". The Dark One's healing, though more brutal, also healed what the One Power would not have been able to.

 

Ishy's Healing seems to have only have been temporary also. LT is as mad as a Hatter in Rand's head. Or did he go insane upon seeing what he had done. He was distraught when he created Dragonmount, but he seemed quite sane.

[jemron]

ok, this has been discussed already, but I want to bring new life to it:

 

I feel like one major thing from this POV truly baffles me; Graendal often refers to the Dark One in her own mind as "The Dark One." Even in the same thought, she thinks of "The Dark One's prison" and then "The Great Lord would not be pleased..."

 

Later she thinks "Light!" to herself. Now, this is either poor writing/editing on Team Jordan's part (highly doubtful) or there is more to this than we realize.

 

Yes, Graendal is a skeptic, and it is possible she doesn't even really care about taking "sides"; maybe she really is just in it for the power, and she doesn't truly worship the "Great Lord." Perhaps her mentality from before she turned to the DO is still somewhat intact, and so she sometimes thinks of him as the DO or she sometimes still says "Light" in her mind, because she's used to thinking that way before she turned over... but I still can't believe that. Graendal's mind is very keen. Would she make a mistake like this unintentionally? Is it an indication of just how unhinged she is feeling by being discovered by Rand?

 

OR, could it be that in Graendal's mind the "Dark One" and the "Great Lord" are actually two different entities?

Go back and re-read some of those quotes with that thought in mind and tell me if I'm just blowing smoke.

 

Here are one or two of the quotes:

 

The Great Lord’s essence forced the Pattern, straining it and leaving it scarred.

Even something the Creator had designed to be eternal could be unraveled using the Dark One’s energies. It bespoke an eternal truth--something as close to being sacred as Graendal was willing to accept. Whatever the Creator could build, the Dark One could destroy.

 

- Towers of Midnight Prologue

 

and again here:

 

“You,” she growled. “You have become far more dangerous than I assumed.” Hundreds of beautiful men and women, the finest she’d gathered, gone. Her stronghold, dozens of items of Power, her greatest ally among the Chosen. Gone.

This was a disaster.

No, she thought. I live. She’d anticipated him, if only by a few moments. Now he would think she was dead.

She was suddenly the safest she’d been since escaping the Dark One’s prison. Except, of course, that she’d just caused the death of one of the Chosen. The Great Lord would not be pleased.

She limped away from the ridge, already planning her next move. This would have to be handled very, very carefully.

 

- Towers of Midnight Prologue

 

Notice how she almost makes "The Dark One's prison" seem like something completely separate from the "Great Lord who would be displeased." Call me crazy, but maybe there's something to this?

[DottieGirl]

 

What amazes me is how few whitecloaks actually realized how far gone their organization was....

Lol, only the mad can truly understand the depths of their madness...

 

Seriously, I could see Perrin helping the WCs and maybe regaining the respect of Bornhald and Byar, or at the minimum an opportunity for a truce. I just don't know if Byar's loyalty to Galad will be strong enough to overcome his desire to kill Perrin for Perrin's supposed involvement in the death of Bornhald Sr. Byar was showing signs of cracking, in Galad's eyes, giving in to zealotry (not unlike similar descriptions of Masema and his followers). I think Byar may go off the deep end like Masema and need to be put down like a rabid dog, but we'll see.

 

Oh yes, on topic, yay Graendal.

[sdelu]

jemron...

 

You're crazy. And blowing smoke.

 

Are you suggesting that there is a "third" entity, or that she's referring to the Creator as a force that "forced the pattern, straining it and leaving it scarred"? Because that sounds an awful lot like the way the DO's effect on the pattern is always explained.

 

What could there possibly be to it? That she's a "good guy" who has been doing unbelievably nasty things to people for hundreds of years, and who enjoys enslaving people until their minds turn to mush? The more logical conclusion is the one people came to already: she's in it for herself and not because she truly "believes" in the DO, which explains the "Light!" comment. Selfishness is the DO's favored quality in his Chosen, after all.

 

And why would anyone who is not the Dark One be upset if a Chosen was killed?

 

As for why she uses Great Lord and Dark One, I think the different terms were used just so those sections didn't seem redundant, repetitive and boring. Just like sometimes a writer will use "He" or "She" in a sentence, and sometimes they will use that character's name, a nickname, or their title instead. Just a writing thing is my guess.

[Wolfsister]

I know that a lot of people are sick to death of Perrin and even found his POV to be useless in the prologue, but there were some very interesting things that come across in his POV. First of all there is the dream that is not a wolf dream, but a normal dream, but somehow Hopper is there and conversing with him. How is that possible?

 

It's as if the dream world is seeping into normal dreams... what impact can that have!

 

Then near the end of his dream he starts being attached by the figurines and Hopper senses something wrong and goes for Perrin's neck to get him out of the dream quickly. This screams Lanfear/Cyndane or Mogi to me. Perrin is being attached in his normal dream (his unseen foes?). This POV is actually very interesting.

[jemron]

jemron...

 

You're crazy. And blowing smoke.

 

Are you suggesting that there is a "third" entity, or that she's referring to the Creator as a force that "forced the pattern, straining it and leaving it scarred"? Because that sounds an awful lot like the way the DO's effect on the pattern is always explained.

 

What could there possibly be to it? That she's a "good guy" who has been doing unbelievably nasty things to people for hundreds of years, and who enjoys enslaving people until their minds turn to mush? The more logical conclusion is the one people came to already: she's in it for herself and not because she truly "believes" in the DO, which explains the "Light!" comment. Selfishness is the DO's favored quality in his Chosen, after all.

 

And why would anyone who is not the Dark One be upset if a Chosen was killed?

 

As for why she uses Great Lord and Dark One, I think the different terms were used just so those sections didn't seem redundant, repetitive and boring. Just like sometimes a writer will use "He" or "She" in a sentence, and sometimes they will use that character's name, a nickname, or their title instead. Just a writing thing is my guess.

 

I could see that. It was just strange to me that it was "The Great Lord" will punish me (referring to him/it as more of an entity) and "the Dark One" was referred to in her thoughts as more of a power or counter to the Creator. I just don't want it to be a mistake on Team Jordan's part, so I feel like I'm grasping at straws trying to justify what else it could mean. I suppose the "she's just selfish and doesn't believe in the actual DO" is a good enough explanation. I will be asking this to BWS next time I see him (at the midnight release party).

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

My thought on the supposed "over-convenience" of Graendal's hairpin escape is that it is welcome and overdue. For all their setbacks, the forces of the Light have had so many improbable salvations and strokes of good luck (even excluding Mat) that it has long grated on me for the good guys to get all the breaks and the bad guys to get none. That cheapens the story of the battle of light versus shadow. Graendal deserved to escape, and I'm glad she did, because I had concluded that she was toast. ToM will be even more interesting with her schemes.

 

Also, for anyone who would blame Brandon for the way that sequence was written: Graendal's last-moment survival sounds far too significant to be Brandon's own doing. I suspect RJ wanted it this way.

 

I'm torn about her divided use of Light-side terminology and Shadow-side terminology. Somebody mentioned the possibility that BS was just mixing up the vocabulary so as to avoid being repetitive, and that thought had occurred to me as well. It could be as simple as that. But another possibility is that Graendal is up there with Lanfear in her lack of interest in the welfare and ultimate triumph of her patron. Yet another possibility, although seemingly less likely, is that Graendal is on the verge of an epiphany about her allegiances.

 

With Graendal active in the plotline, and BS on the record as having said we're going to know what Cyndane is all about in this book, and the implied Moghedien factor in Perrin's plotline, not to mention the inevitable Moridin cameo, and the outside possibility of a full Demandred reveal, ToM is shaping up to be the most Forsaken-intensive book since FoH...a welcome return to the old form!

 

It's a bit ironic that we speak so prophetically about what the Forsaken are going to do. Many fans are already setting up confrontations in their minds between the remaining Forsaken and Light-siders. I'd be disappointed if that's all that the Forsaken amount to...a relatively trivial casualty like Cadsuane, Elayne, or, much as I like her, Min. I would only be satisfied with the Forsakens' collective performance if they royally screw up the definition of victory at the Last Battle.

[blackmore]

Good call (I read it too fast the first time, as usual - I'm a horrible skimmer when I'm excited). I see Demandred as being a more likely antagonist for Elayne anyway.

 

Also...Delana? Ew.

Yeah, Aran'gar really is desperately horny, eh?

 

The question is, did anyone significant join Rand's group after Natrin's barrow? I don't think so. Graendal may well have chosen to stay in the extreme periphery. She needs to scout out this much more dangerous Rand, who is also accompanied by a woman who can undo Graendal's compulsion. I think she won't easily give up the safety and security of Rand thinking she's dead. I have a sinking feeling she's going to take a bite when it'll really hurt. For the first time, a Foresaken really scared me. She's certainly the most competent one we've seen.

 

As to the surprise thing... remember that Graendal was extremely surprised too, and was barely able to get hold of saidar.

 

She escaped by half a heartbeat at best; Imagine if Elane was in her pet entourage already, hence no response to Matt... and Rand completes the Illyena cycle. Unlikely, but ooooof that would be ruff.

[TankSpill]

Just to throw in my two cents, I think Graendal will be focusing her efforts on Nynaeve moreso than Min - I have a feeling that with newly-Light-Rand, Min may be more well-protected than ever, but Nynaeve may have issues as she keeps on going off on her own.

[mikael]

Good call (I read it too fast the first time, as usual - I'm a horrible skimmer when I'm excited). I see Demandred as being a more likely antagonist for Elayne anyway.

 

Also...Delana? Ew.

Yeah, Aran'gar really is desperately horny, eh?

 

The question is, did anyone significant join Rand's group after Natrin's barrow? I don't think so. Graendal may well have chosen to stay in the extreme periphery. She needs to scout out this much more dangerous Rand, who is also accompanied by a woman who can undo Graendal's compulsion. I think she won't easily give up the safety and security of Rand thinking she's dead. I have a sinking feeling she's going to take a bite when it'll really hurt. For the first time, a Foresaken really scared me. She's certainly the most competent one we've seen.

 

As to the surprise thing... remember that Graendal was extremely surprised too, and was barely able to get hold of saidar.

 

She escaped by half a heartbeat at best; Imagine if Elane was in her pet entourage already, hence no response to Matt... and Rand completes the Illyena cycle. Unlikely, but ooooof that would be ruff.

 

That would be something else, neat idea, but cant really see her dieing off screen like that.

[KefkaPalazzo]

I agree with Terez that Demandred is going to be involved with Elayne. There was a hint dropped about it in LOC chapter 7 where he was spying on her in the TAR royal palace. That has not yet been addressed.

[Luckers]

I agree with Terez that Demandred is going to be involved with Elayne. There was a hint dropped about it in LOC chapter 7 where he was spying on her in the TAR royal palace. That has not yet been addressed.

 

Mmm. Personally I don't think so, and here is why...

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Powell's Books, Portland, OR 19 November 2009 - Samadai reporting

 

TheWindRose: Are there any Forsaken around Elayne?

 

Brandon: So many people are trying to figure out where Demandred is, I am not sure I can answer that.

 

Forkroot and Samadai: No, not Demandred; we were talking Cyndane or Moghedien. For example, some postulate that Sylvase is Cyndane.

 

Brandon: No, Sylvase is not a Forsaken and was never intended to be.

 

 

I personally do not think Brandon would have mentioned Demandred at all, had it been Demandred. He simply would have RAFO'd. That being said I do think this indicates that there IS a Forsaken near Elayne, just that it is not Demandred.

[Elend]

I honestly have some deep, dark suspicions about Halwin Norry. Seriously. And The Seven-Striped Lass does not really endear him to me anymore. I can totally see him just not really telling Elayne that much w.r.t Mat and trying to create a wedge there.

 

But I've been paranoid about the guy since the Black Ajah ambush in KoD.

[nnokwoodeye]

There something that bothers me about Graendal escape. Balefire destroy things before it hits them, so even though she escaped before the attack, she was still in it when the palace was vaporized. Logically she was suppose to find herself in the bottom of the crater with a broken neck

[TankSpill]

There something that bothers me about Graendal escape. Balefire destroy things before it hits them, so even though she escaped before the attack, she was still in it when the palace was vaporized. Logically she was suppose to find herself in the bottom of the crater with a broken neck

 

Hmmm, I don't have the quotes to back me up on this, but I think you're missing something with this. You're right that balefire destroys things before it strikes them, but by nature of the fact that Graendal jumped through her Gateway before the balefire was ever launched, she was technically not in Natrin's Barrow, and thus wouldn't necessarily have to find herself in a crater. The balefire never hit her, it just hit a place where she was.

[waffle]

sometimes i think RJ thought up balefire just to give crazy theorycrafters something to do in the afternoons

[yoniy0]

There something that bothers me about Graendal escape. Balefire destroy things before it hits them, so even though she escaped before the attack, she was still in it when the palace was vaporized. Logically she was suppose to find herself in the bottom of the crater with a broken neck

Balefire erases threads of objects it hits from before the time it hit them. It doesn't erase everything that crossed the path it travels before it was launched. Think of it as actual burning. It hits something, the thread catches 'fire', and the loose end left in the pattern 'burns back' a little bit. The more intense the fire is, the farther back it burns.

[Aquarius]

For exemple, Nyneave was moved a few hundreds of feet behind because she was in the boat when it was balefired. So the boat and its content were moved. Graendal wasn't in her palace, so she didn't "move" (no the palace doesn't move but you get my point).

[Mr Hindley]

Just a thought - never mind Rand, does anyone other than Graendal herself know that she's still alive? Basically, I'm talking Moridin / Shaidar Haran / the Dark One - would they have any way of knowing she's alive? I suppose if she tries to draw the TP, that's a give away, but otherwise, there's no guarantee the DO knows she's still out there. Opens up all kinds of opportunities.

 

I certainly don't see how Graendal would have to 'fess up for Aran'gar's death. She could just report that she made it out alive, A didn't - who would ever know she'd actually nailed A to the spot as a sacrificial lamb.

[Sharaman]

Just a thought - never mind Rand, does anyone other than Graendal herself know that she's still alive? Basically, I'm talking Moridin / Shaidar Haran / the Dark One - would they have any way of knowing she's alive? I suppose if she tries to draw the TP, that's a give away, but otherwise, there's no guarantee the DO knows she's still out there. Opens up all kinds of opportunities.

 

I certainly don't see how Graendal would have to 'fess up for Aran'gar's death. She could just report that she made it out alive, A didn't - who would ever know she'd actually nailed A to the spot as a sacrificial lamb.

 

I think GLoD would always know due to the TP connection. All he needs to do is use a packet sniffer to find live nodes on his TP network. That means Moridin would also know, and presumably, Shaidar Haran. Somehow I don't think G would lie to GLoD if she's asked about Aran'gar, or anything else - she might try to put it in a good light at best. He's also cool with his Chosen killing each other - He used to encourage that in the AoL.

[blackmore]

Nice POV. The new "True Power Only" weave of seeing through the bird's eyes is awesome.

 

Also balescream is my official New Favorite WOT-Word.

Ditto on Balescream; absolutely perfect word choice; hat tips to Brandon.

[blackmore]

There something that bothers me about Graendal escape. Balefire destroy things before it hits them, so even though she escaped before the attack, she was still in it when the palace was vaporized. Logically she was suppose to find herself in the bottom of the crater with a broken neck

Interesting thought, though I'm nut sure it's valid...Hrm. Anyone else wanna weigh in?

[blackmore]

Just a thought - never mind Rand, does anyone other than Graendal herself know that she's still alive? Basically, I'm talking Moridin / Shaidar Haran / the Dark One - would they have any way of knowing she's alive? I suppose if she tries to draw the TP, that's a give away, but otherwise, there's no guarantee the DO knows she's still out there. Opens up all kinds of opportunities.

 

I certainly don't see how Graendal would have to 'fess up for Aran'gar's death. She could just report that she made it out alive, A didn't - who would ever know she'd actually nailed A to the spot as a sacrificial lamb.

It's been stated by Members of the Forsaken that they, are often surprised by what the Dark One both has knowledge and ignorance of; and that makes feigning ignorance a particularly large gamble. See LoC prologue.