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Luckers

Who Is The Third Man? Rand and Moridin's Link

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Essentially the third man is Moridin. We learn this in KoD-18-News For the Dragon.

 

Abruptly another image was floating in his head, a man's face, and his breath caught. For the first time, it came without any dizziness. For the first time he could see it clearly in the moments before it vanished. A blue-eyes man with a square chin, perhaps a few years older than himself. Or rather, he saw it clearly for the first time in a long while. It was the fact of the stranger who had saved his life in Shadar Logoth when he fought Sammael.

 

As for how Moridin manifesting in Rand's head, Rand himself figured that out.

 

When our streams of balefire touched in Shadar Logoth it must have created some sort of link between us. I can't think of any other explanation. That was the only time we ever met. He was using their so-called True Power. It had to be that. I felt nothing, saw nothing except his stream of balefire.

 

And indeed, we see that link form.

 

Without a thought, his free hand rose, and balefire shot upward, a bar of liquid white fire slicing across the wave sinking toward them. Dimly he was aware of another bar of pale solid fire rising from the other man's hand that was not clasping his, a bar slashing the opposite way from his. The two touched.

 

Head ringing like a struck gong, Rand convulsed, saidin and the Void shattering. everything was doubled in his eyes, the balconies, the chunks of stone lying about the floor. There seemed to be a pair of the other man overlapping one another, each clutching his head between two hands. Blinking, Rand searched for Mashadar. The wave of shining mist was gone; a glow remained in the balconies above, but dimming, receding, as Rand's eyes began to clear. Even mindless Mashadar fled balefire, it seemed.

 

[aCoS-41-A Crown of Swords]

 

And it is on the next page that we first see the link active.

 

Suddenly he realized that he had not felt saidin when the man made balefire, either. Just thinking of that, of the two streams touching, made his vision double again. Just for an instant, he could see the man's face again, sharp where everything else blurred.

 

[aCoS-41-A Crown of Swords]

 

This raises the question--exactly how does the link work. It seems to have two different roles, the first being passive, and the second active.

 

Passive Transferal

 

The thread already lists other passive transfer--Rand seeing Moridin's face in his dreams, Lews therin listing him as a destroyer, and so on. In CoT we learn that's continued and that Rand is now getting foggy visions of Moridin's face awake...

 

He no longer feared killing Min or Elayne or Aviendha any more than he feared going mad. Madder than he already was, at least, with a dead man in his head, and sometimes a foggy face he could almost recognize

 

[CoT-24-A Strengthening Storm]

 

There are also references to the foggy or vague face in WH-22-Out of Thin Air and WH-35-With the Choedan Kal.

 

Later in the CoT-24 we see that just as with Lews Therin, knowledge and thoughts seem to be filtering through the link. In CoT we see Rand wax poetic about the Creator...

 

Did he think the Creator had decided to stretch out a merciful hand after three thousand years of suffering? The Creator had made the world and then left humankind to make of it what they would, a heaven or the Pit of Doom by their choosing. The Creator had made many worlds, watched each flower or die, and gone on to make endless worlds beyond. A gardener did not weep for each blossom that fell.

 

For an instant, he thought those must have been Lews Therin’s reflections. He had never gone on that way about the Creator or anything else that he recalled. But he could feel Lews Therin nodding in approval, a man listening to someone else. Still, it was not the kind of thing he would have considered before Lews Therin. How much space remained between them?

 

[CoT-24-A Strengthening Storm]

 

Now Rand concludes that this must come from an amalgamation of his and Lews Therin's thoughts, but that's only because he knows Lews Therin didn't say it and couldn't think of who else might--and the reality is that this seems much more in tune with Moridin given his philosophical background.

 

Active Transferal

 

The passive transferal seems to just flow through whenever, but there is a second level to the link which seems to be tied in with saidin--specifically whenever Rand draws on, or releases saidin it activates the link. I'll touch more on the significance of the fact that it is only when he draws on, or releases the source later. But for now, we first witness the channeling sickness in tPoD.

 

Reluctantly he let go of the Power, forced himself not to hang on like a man clutching salvation with his fingernails as life and filth drained from him together. For an instant, he saw double; the world seemed to tilt dizzily. That was a recent problem, and he worried it might be part of the sickness that killed men who channeled, but the dizziness never lasted more than moments.

 

[tPoD-Floating Like Snow]

 

From there it continues, whenever he gathers or releases saidin. There was hot debate between whether it was the Taint or the Link which was causing this. Rand himself assumed it was the taint, and in addition to Morr that is the main reason he buckles down in Winter's Heart to cleanse it. Afterwards he is at a loss to explain whilst it is still there.

 

That did not stop nausea from rising in Rand, though, the violent urge to bend double and empty himself on the floor. The room seemed to spin for an instant, and he had to put a hand on the nearest bedpost to steady himself. He did not know why he should still feel this sickness, with the taint gone.

 

[CoT-24-A Strengthing Storm]

 

But the Winter's Heart Prologue rules this out. In it we witness the dizziness come without saidin, but with the image of Moridin.

 

“You should have picked smaller books, “ he told her, pulling on riding gloves to hide the Dragons. “Or lighter.” He turned toward the window, to fetch the leather scrip, and a wave of dizziness hit him. Knees turning to water, he stumbled. A shimmering face he could not make out flashed through his head. With an effort, he caught himself, forced his legs straight. And the whirling sensation vanished.

 

LewsTherin panted hoarsely in the shadows. Could the face be his?

 

“If you think you’ll make me carry them all that way, think again,” Min grumbled. “I’ve seen better pretending from stablehands. You could try falling down.”

 

“Not this time.” He was ready for what happened when he channeled; he could control it to some extent. Usually. Most of the time. This dizziness without saidin was new. Maybe he had just turned too fast. And maybe pigs did fly... ”

 

[WH-Prologue-Snow]

 

Now the problem here is in the question of how the link could become active without Rand seizing or releasing saidin, as is the case every other time he experiences the nausea. The likely answer is that this time it was Moridin's channeling that activated the link instead of Rand's. There is more support for that being the case, but I'll address that in a second.

 

In any case it is confirmed completely that the neusea is caused by the link. Specifically, in KoD, we see the reverse occuring--Rand activating the link, experiencing the nausea, and seeing Moridin.

 

with saidin came the inevitable violent nausea, the almost overwhelming desire to double over and empty himself of every meal he had ever eaten. His knees trembled with it. He fought that as hard as he fought the Power, and saidin had to be fought ever and always. A man forced saidin to his will, or it destroyed him. The face of the man from Shadar Logoth floated in his head for a moment. He looked furious. And near to sicking up. Without any doubt he was aware of Rand in that moment, and Rand of him. Move a hair in any direction and they would touch. No more than a hair.

 

[KoD-21-Within the Stone]

 

So drawing and releasing saidin is what facilitates the link into becoming active, and it is the link that causes the nausea. Moreover Moridin is experiencing the nausea when Rand is activating the link, and given the Winter's Heart prologue, Rand is experiencing it when Moridin does.

 

Curiously, it seems to be saidin that activates it for both men. This seems strange, one would think that it would be channeling the True Power which caused this in Moridin given that it was the TP he was channeling when the link was formed, nevertheless given that Moridin seems to be using the TP without issue, and Demandred states that he is now using it exclusively after three thousand years of using both it and saidin in mixture.

 

Demandred flinched in spite of himself. That had been the True Power; he had felt nothing. A black speck floated across Moridin's blue eyes, then another, in a steady stream. The man must have been using the True Power exclusively since he last saw him to gain so many saa so quickly.[WH-13-Wonderful News]

 

So, it would appear that Saidin is the contributing factor in activating the link for Moridin as well. I have a possible explanation for this.

 

Why Saidin? And Why Does the Link Cause Nausea?

 

Firstly, on the nausea, consider the initial descriptions RJ uses to describe the formation of, and first activation of the link. "Head ringing like a struck gong, Rand convulsed, saidin and the Void shattering. everything was doubled in his eyes, the balconies, the chunks of stone lying about the floor. There seemed to be a pair of the other man overlapping one another, each clutching his head between two hands." and "Just thinking of that, of the two streams touching, made his vision double again. Just for an instant, he could see the man's face again, sharp where everything else blurred."

 

In both cases the link affected his perception, which is not unreasonable given the description of the trauma Rand underwent. However consider this, as time passes Rand slowly begins to perceive an imperfect image through the link--Moridin's face--and at the same time this perception induces nausea. Note that the one time Rand does perfectly perceive Moridin he does not feel the nausea. Rand even remarks on it. "Abruptly another image was floating in his head, a man's face, and his breath caught. For the first time, it came without any dizziness."

 

In effect the nausea is being caused by the weakness of the link. The perceptions coming to him of Moridin (or from Moridin? Or both?) are disjointed, vague and fuzzy. Worse yet it seems to be going straight into his brain before his conscious mind becomes aware of it (or can make enough sense of it) to process an image from it. It is this that I would suggest is causing the violent nausea.

 

From this point, though not entirely related to it, we can deduce that the link is growing stronger. It started with a vague jumble that his conscious mind couldn't even process, slowly stabilizing and thus putting forth an imperfect image, and then beyond that into a fully cohesive image, which when perceived does not induce the nausea, until finally in the very last activation of the link that we witness in KoD 21 Rand states "Without any doubt he was aware of Rand in that moment, and Rand of him. Move a hair in any direction and they would touch. No more than a hair."

 

So, the link has been steadily growing stronger, and based on the above quote, it is also steadily pulling Rand and Moridin's souls closer together, by which I mean that not only are perceptions passing through the link, but it is also having a very real effect on both Rand and Moridin--it is not just a string between to cans, used for passing information along. It's almost like a bungy rope, connecting, but also drawing them together.

 

But, to continue the cans and string analogy, if the link is the string, and Rand and Moridin are people listening to the cans, then what are the cans themselves? Of course Rand and Moridin might be the cans, but the fact that some of what is passing through the link seems to be going straight into Rand's subconscious before his conscious mind puts it together suggests that there is another element.

 

My suggestion would be that the link is based in the part of their souls that they use to reach out and touch saidin. Consider, channelers souls have a natural affinity to each other in that area; a certain resonance exists between them. Like calling to like, as it were. This link seems to be attempting to do the same thing, so it makes sense that it would form in the parts of their soul that already have an attraction.

 

Furthermore, as I pointed out above, the link is activated only when reaching out to touch saidin, or in releasing it. In effect the link is only active when that 'etheric arm' (that connection or extension of the soul or whatever it is precisely that Nynaeve notices as have been cut off in Logain) is being used.

 

Also consider that there is a pre-existing a natural affinity between channelers which seems based in that 'etheric arm'. Women can sense 'the ability' in other women, and sense it as an attraction, a sense of kinship. Men's senses are more limited, but there is still a resonance between the souls of male channelers. A certain sense of like calling to like. This link seems to be slowly bringing them more in tune with each other, so it makes sense that it would form in the parts of their soul that already have an attraction.

 

These two points are my answer to the question of why this is affecting Moridin's ability to channel saidin--the link is based in (occurred in, is of, etc) the parts of their soul designed to touch saidin. Of course RJ stated a normal shield (which seems to work as a constriction of that 'etheric arm') would stop someone being able to channel the True Power, which seems to suggest that the arm is used in channeling the True Power, however it would make sense that what could keep something in can keep something out, and thus the arm may not be involved at all.

 

Or it is involved and there is still some element of this that we don't understand--maybe its all in the like calling like, and use of the arm to touch the True Power doesn't resonate enough to activate the link.

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i find this link to be the most fascinating thing going in the series and I think it will play THE crucial role in the outcome. I read a theory once that said balefiring balefire creates a paradox. They both cause the other to cease to exist, but if one ceases to exist, the other exists, and so on is the paradox. The only way for the pattern to solve this paradox is to make the two balefire streams (and thus their source) become one. I am not sure I buy into this theory fully, but it is interesting. I always wondered how (pre KOD) people thought this was the taint. I thought it was very clear right away that the dizziness was from this.

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We know that they can affect one another through the link, so how is Moridin going to be affected by Rand's answer in VoG? Moridin turned because he was certain that one day the DO would win, so if anyone is vulnerable to truly repenting and turning back to the light it is him. He fell to his own logic, but logic can be used to save him from himself. So now the question becomes, how much of the new Rand will rub off on him?

 

(personally i think the DO made him nae'blis in order to keep him close because he feared that Moridin's connection with Rand may turn him).

Edited by Torn Shadow

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if the nausea is based on the the strength of the link, and the link was getting stronger and the nasuea was going down as you say, then why was the nausea so overpowering in the end of TGS when he open himself to the Power in ebou Dar?

was the link suddenly getting weaker for no appearent reason?

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This hasn't been properly updated for tGS yet. Sadly I probably won't get around to it till after ToM.

 

Short answer, yes, the nausea/strength of the link relation seems more complex than I realised.

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It's possible--after all Fain does already have a sort of bond with both Rand and Moridin, through what was done to him by the Dark One.

 

There has been no evidence of it though in the function of the link.

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In all my many read-throughs of all the posts on here this is the best one I have read so far. No offense Luckers but the Unseen Eyes has never caught me the way this theory has. Keep up the good work regardless, I still can't find anything else to compete for BUT status.

 

Also, I would love for Moridin to be redeemed, he is too awesome of a character to lose during TG.

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I could imagine Rand screaming at Moridin that when he turned to the dark he made one critical error: he disregarded the chance of the light winning once and for all (in far more eloquent words, of course). And Moridin managing to redeem himself in his final act. He went to the shadow out of despair, give a man with no hope hope and anything can happen.

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Luckers: At the risk of sounding Suckuperish, I am forced to agree with Hand Of The Creator above - this is a magnificent post. Bravo.

 

Also, I agree with someone above who mentioned that this (the Moridin/Rand Link) is one of my very favorite remaining storylines in the series that is still ongoing.

 

The fireside chat between Rand and Moridin in TGS was one of my very favorite scenes in the last several books. It was a beautiful nod to the earlier Rand/Ishamael scenes in the series and it captured that old feel magically. It also gave a palpable sense of something DEEP - on several levels - transpiring there between them in that scene. It also reminded me what an utterly compelling and fascinating character Elan and Ishamael were...and Moridin is.

 

Now. This brings me to what I feel is a pertinent question. I raised it in the Chapter One topic on the TOM Spoiler Board:

 

If a ''connection'' between Rand and Moridin DOES exist since their streams touched in ACOS, (and we know that it DOES), then:

 

What types of feelings are MORIDIN experiencing now that his link-buddy (Rand) is Post-VOG???

 

Zen-Peace Loving-Hippie-Flower Power-Lets All Get Along dispositions are all well and good for the ''good guys'' to have...but, WHAT kind of EFFECT is MORIDIN experiencing from a Post-Dragonmount Rand?

 

Any chance Moridin is being filled with Light and unwillingly downloading a backlash of Rand's new ''Mr Soul'' persona?

 

If so, what ramifications will it have?

 

If not...WHY not? I mean, theyve been linked and sharing each others emotions so far...

 

Hmmm...

 

 

 

Fish

Edited by The Fisher King

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Um. As to the nature of the link I have a theory that seems to explain many things, and differs from your version somewhat:)

I think that during crossed stream episodes, the threads of Rand and Moridin has melded together somewhat, resulting in several effects.

First, the link makes them close -nearly one, but not quite. So that when it activates, Rand sees Moridin just from the side. Also, it makes them nearly indistinguishable from the "global" point of view -such as the Source or the Dark One. Then, when Rand is accessing saidin, but does not have control yet (or when he releases it), from the point of view of Saidin it is like TWO male access points are calling it - which result in (impossible) male-male link, ambiguity and severe dizziness/disorientation for recipients, until one of them resolves it by taking control of the flow. Also, the way Rand accesses TP is through that link (he did see Moridin's face upon activation, in TGS), and the DO may not be even able to tell that it is not Moridin drawing on his power. Whether Moridin can use TP at the same time as Rand is debatable. Also, Rand does not feel any sickness upon drawing TP, since there is no ambiguity -all power comes from a single access point - Moridin, just being drawn through the link like the usual power circle, only more permanent. Just IMHO.

(Also, it would mean that Rand can still access TP. Any one think that DO will end up like The Great Serpent, with his behind in his mouth?)

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Okay this is great but can someone explain why Moridin was saving Rand at SL in the first place? If the link was created there with the balefire why did the connection between them seem to be there before then. Moridan came to SL to save Rand - we didn't know who he was then and only after found out he was one of the Forsaken. Why did one of the Forsaken go to save Rand unless he knew that if Rand died he would too - I think that the link between them might have already been there?

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Okay this is great but can someone explain why Moridin was saving Rand at SL in the first place? If the link was created there with the balefire why did the connection between them seem to be there before then. Moridan came to SL to save Rand - we didn't know who he was then and only after found out he was one of the Forsaken. Why did one of the Forsaken go to save Rand unless he knew that if Rand died he would too - I think that the link between them might have already been there?

 

Moridin/Ishamael has always had a "no kill" order for Rand except on a few brief occasions. Based on when he was playing Sha`rah, he considered it acceptable to make some sacrifises to capture the Fisher. The Fisher King is obviously Rand, and in this case the Shadow wants him alive; either to break him and have him turn, or for other reasons which are unknown [perhaps only Rand can start the final battle, etc etc.) Therefore, Rand living and Sammael dying was an acceptable loss. Not to mention Sammael disobeyed a direct order to not kill Rand (although I suppose he could argue it was self defense.)

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The Rand-Moridin link and the necessity of Callandor might be tied together.

 

Given that Callandor can only be safely used when linked with two women, if the soul-link causes Rand and Moridin to swap bodies while Rand is in such a circle, then Moridin is suddenly neutralized until the woman controlling the circle releases him.

 

A neat symmetry would be Moridin controlling a link with Cyndane and Moghedion... which Rand takes control of during the swap.

 

(I still cling to the faint hope that Lanfear is involved in re-sealing the bore.)

 

-- dwn

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(Also, it would mean that Rand can still access TP. Any one think that DO will end up like The Great Serpent, with his behind in his mouth?)

 

I have been floating this theory around in my head since tGS that Rand will use the TP to close the bore and seal the DO away with his own power. Would be awesome if it goes down like that.

 

[Removed]

 

Is it possible that through the link rand amd moridin share that if they die together dark one bring rand back?

 

I have never consider this, but it's extremely interesting...

Edited by yoniy0
No ToM spoilers are allowed here. Posting them will end in your getting banned for 2 weeks

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anyone remember when this link was formed? could be the big unnoticed thing lol...

apparrantly it formed when Moridin and and Rand's balefire streams crossed....I call it the Ghostbuster Effect......

 

 

It does make sense....Balefire can burns someone from the past...If Rand and Moridin succeeded in buring each other from the pattern, then both would still be alive because neither existed to burn out the other one.....wait it doesn't make since....kinda like how John Conner was able to send his own father to the past to knock up his mom.....a loop in space and time......if one thing changes, the whole timeline changes.....

 

The only way to fix the rift in time is for the pattern to weave a new thread using both Rand and Moridin.......I think it is the fulfillment of part of the prophesy.....Rand and Moridin are one person....one thread......two two threads made into one...whatever......

 

But anyway....The prophesy said, "to live, you must die".....I think that it means that Rand must kill Moridin....and because they are the same person in the pattern now, he will be killing part of himself...maybe he will lose all of his memories of LTT's life.....or something like that...but he will. live on without that part of himself.....

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Um. As to the nature of the link I have a theory that seems to explain many things, and differs from your version somewhat:)

I think that during crossed stream episodes, the threads of Rand and Moridin has melded together somewhat, resulting in several effects.

First, the link makes them close -nearly one, but not quite. So that when it activates, Rand sees Moridin just from the side. Also, it makes them nearly indistinguishable from the "global" point of view -such as the Source or the Dark One. Then, when Rand is accessing saidin, but does not have control yet (or when he releases it), from the point of view of Saidin it is like TWO male access points are calling it - which result in (impossible) male-male link, ambiguity and severe dizziness/disorientation for recipients, until one of them resolves it by taking control of the flow. Also, the way Rand accesses TP is through that link (he did see Moridin's face upon activation, in TGS), and the DO may not be even able to tell that it is not Moridin drawing on his power. Whether Moridin can use TP at the same time as Rand is debatable. Also, Rand does not feel any sickness upon drawing TP, since there is no ambiguity -all power comes from a single access point - Moridin, just being drawn through the link like the usual power circle, only more permanent. Just IMHO.

(Also, it would mean that Rand can still access TP. Any one think that DO will end up like The Great Serpent, with his behind in his mouth?)

I completely agree! I've thought this same thing since reading tGS. I also think Rand using TP to seal the bore would be epic.

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My thoughts: When I first heard the "body swap" theory, it sounded ludicrous. Over the years it has grown on me. Now I expect to see Rand and Moridin grappling in a final fight in some non-physical sense, with Moridin pulling a "Gollum" ending that turns the battle to seal the DO. At the same time, Rand is killed (bodily); Rand comes back in Moridin's body while the three women weep over Rand's corpse. Later Min sees Rand/Moridin and a viewing lets her recognize him. "Woolhead," she says, "Let's go home." Or words to that effect...

 

So, the three are Rand, LTT, and Moridin; Rand lives in Moridin's body, and I tend to guess no more LTT (promise kept).

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if two people balefire each other at the same time, then they both don't exist.

 

person A releases balefire and hits person B, person B is gone from the pattern from before person A released balefire, so balefiring person A now can't effect anyone who was dead before A acted.

 

Also Rand and Moridin (if it really was) didn't shoot each other's person, their weaves touched (what does that do? who knows...) so they couldn't have been removed from the pattern.

 

Also one thread has only one body, one position, etc

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if two people balefire each other at the same time, then they both don't exist.

 

person A releases balefire and hits person B, person B is gone from the pattern from before person A released balefire, so balefiring person A now can't effect anyone who was dead before A acted.

 

Also Rand and Moridin (if it really was) didn't shoot each other's person, their weaves touched (what does that do? who knows...) so they couldn't have been removed from the pattern.

 

Also one thread has only one body, one position, etc

No they set up a make and break circuit where both flicker in and out of existence continuously. This continues until one of them gets tried or the writer gets bored and moves on with the plot.

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