Lanfear mentions two ter'angreal stronger than Callandor

[Lynchgrinch]

Callandor's power = capable of leveling a city walls at a single blow, or raining down 1000s of lightning bolts simultaneously for miles in every direction.

 

Choedan Kal = Capable of destroying the entire world in a single blow, challenging the dark one/creator, so much power that using it at it's limits for Rand was basically inducing unconciousness - he established his saidin-cleaning weaves first and THEN increasing the amount of power he was pushing into them.

 

These two might be called sa'angreal, but they are not truly comparable in terms of power utilization.

 

I think there is definitely room for something more powerful than Callandor. But beyond that, we have to ask ourselves the following?

 

Q1: If there was a male sa'angreal more powerful than Callandor, why wasn't it used instead of the Dragon's birthright?

 

A1: Because the Shadow had control of that Sa'angreal?

 

Q2: Why haven't we seen the forces of the Shadow fighting with a Sa'angreal yet?

 

A2: Because it's been saved for the absolutely vicious ToM and AMoL?

 

Q3: Who on the Shadow's side would be likely to have a powerful male sa'angreal not yet shown?

 

A3: Moridin, but his is a more philosophical way of fighting and he wield the true power artfully. Demandred, as he is known to crave might and power and we have not yet seen him in battle EXCEPT at the cleansing....this speaks against him having access, but not definitively.

 

....

 

I think we're going to see the Shadow emerge with a tool as strong or stronger than Callandor. And I think Lanfear's statement makes perfect sense in that context. At the time of her statement, the access keys to the ter'angreal were NOT known to still be whole and exist...especially by her, or she would've stolen them. They had lain untouched since the breaking.

 

I think Lanfear knows of a male sa'angreal more powerful than Callandor, and in the hands of the Shadow.

 

 

Or maby because Callandor is the Sa'angreal mentioned in the Karethon cycle? i recon that we STILL don't know everything about Callandor...We know that there are quite easily other Sa'angreal that are more powerfull in terms of the drawing of sheer ammounts of power. So the logical conclusion is that Callandor MUST have some kind of trait that other Sa'angreal do not. Else why would it be mentiond in the Prophesies of the Dragon?

 

I can't think why? there must be more to Callandor then we already know, and there have been a few reveals about callandor ie, the flaw in the ammount of channelers it takes to wield it...taint aplificatin etc.

 

I don't realy know what i think about this "mysterious 2nd more powerful Sa'angreal" or what it is? Maby Lanfear was just lying about things or maby Demandred does have it?

 

One thing i do think is that if it does exist it wont be Rand and co to use it, rather it will be a device used by the shadow. If it's even still around. i don't think it's the Tamyrlins ring BTW, just seems weird, thats all.

[dovien]

Hmm, that kinda puts the idea that in order to make a angreal/sa'angreal for one half of the source you have to use the other, interesting.

Good point, this matches perfectly with the current best theory for how healing stilling/gentling works.

 

As far as Callandor is concerned I think it's pretty obvious what the deal is and I don't see how people are missing it. Maybe it has already been discussed, discarded and disproven but here goes anyway. We know Callandor is 'defective' in that it is missing the usual buffers - buffers which in most angreal/sa'angreal are there for various related reasons. The channeler is protected from the flow of power through the device and prevented from channeling too close to or over their personal limit. Callandor doesn't have that protection so, theoretically, you could draw as much of saidin through it as you wanted - albeit at great risk to yourself. But Rand doesn't expect to live past the last battle anyway so doesn't it make sense for him to use it in one final destructive blow against the Dark One?

 

There are reasons to see differently though. If Rand destroys himself fighting the Dark One then how can he rebuild the prison? Or will he actually destroy the Dark One (if that's even possible)?

What about Min's viewing of Alivia? Alivia is supposed to 'help Rand die'. Could this mean that she will be one of the women he links with when he uses callandor?

 

I can't wait to RAFO.

[Kestrel]

I always thought Lanfear was just referring to the two Choedan Kal myself.

 

A man COULD use both of them. Rand DID use both. The male one he could access directly. The female one he could access if he was linked to a woman. Rand linked to Nynaeve and used the female Choedan Kal to cleanse saidin.

 

End of mystery.

[dovien]

I always thought Lanfear was just referring to the two Choedan Kal myself.

That's the inference many people have made but it's definitely not conclusive.

[didymos]

I always thought Lanfear was just referring to the two Choedan Kal myself.

 

A man COULD use both of them. Rand DID use both. The male one he could access directly. The female one he could access if he was linked to a woman. Rand linked to Nynaeve and used the female Choedan Kal to cleanse saidin.

 

End of mystery.

 

She was obviously talking about male-attuned sa'angreal. No need to specify otherwise, since it'd be just as true to say only two more powerful were made that a woman can use. They can if the link is setup the right way, right? So why bother bringing gender up at all if it's ultimately meaningless to specify? Just say "that you can use" and be done with it.

 

And no, Rand didn't use the female CK; or rather, he didn't use it in same sense that Lanfear meant or in the way he used the male CK. Why? Because Nynaeve had to use it first via the statue ter'angreal, link with Rand, and then he had to take control of the circle, at which point the saidar was still being drawn through the female CK, then through the female access key, and then finally through Nynaeve herself. Three layers of indirection before a single drop of saidar was available to him and completely impossible had a woman not been present. Saying that counts as Rand (and thus "a man") using the female CK in the same way as Rand using, say, the fat-little-man angreal or Lanfear's example of Callandor doesn't solve the mystery at all. It's just some semantic sleight-of-hand that gives the illusion of having solved it.

[FarShainMael]

From

 

http://dposey.no-ip.com/IdealSeek/IdealSeek.cgi?q=more+powerful+man

 

'There are only two more powerful that a man can use'

 

Note she doesn't say that only a man can use.

 

We have no evidence suggesting that there may be hermaphrodite *'angreals - or that there willl not, except that all the *'angreals we have seen to date are single-sex.. But,

we've seen that the Bowl of the Winds ter'angreal, while being used by women, nevertheless wove saidin as well as saidar.

[didymos]

From

 

http://dposey.no-ip....re+powerful+man

 

'There are only two more powerful that a man can use'

 

Note she doesn't say that only a man can use.

 

We have no evidence suggesting that there may be hermaphrodite *'angreals - or that there willl not, except that all the *'angreals we have seen to date are single-sex.. But,

we've seen that the Bowl of the Winds ter'angreal, while being used by women, nevertheless wove saidin as well as saidar.

 

I still say the only reason for her to specify sex is because (sa')angreal are, like the One Power, strictly segregated. Adding an "only" would just be redundant. Yes, absence of evidence and all that. Thing is, the only thing that truly counts is evidence, and all the evidence so far tells us they're either one or the other, not both. Personally, and this is pure speculation, I think you could have a unisex one, but upon examination you'd find it was actually two separate ones, each attuned to one sex, that had then been "glued" together. Another interesting possibility: we do know of something which doesn't care about the sex of the user, and that's the True Power. If it's possible to make TP-based (sa')angreal, they'd almost certainly be unisex.

[FarShainMael]

Now there's an interesting thought.

[CadeForeverfar]

Very unlikely.  Not only is it unlikely that Hawkwing would have had a male sa'angreal for a sword, but if it were that powerful, Rand would certainly have thought of it as a sa'angreal, especially when considering alternatives to the Choedan Kal.  The fact that it is Justice (if indeed it is, as seems likely) is the bit that Rand knows, which no one else does.

 

I have sometimes wondered if the unknown #2 sa'angreal was something made for and used by Beidomon when they were originally creating the Bore.  Lews Therin/Rand often thought about how Mierin's obsession with power pre-dated the Dark One's advent, and she is the one who made the comment.  Also, I'm betting it took an unusual amount of the Power as well as skillful weaving to create the Bore.  At any rate, if that is the case then the sa'angreal was likely destroyed in the fall of the Sharom. 

 

Whatever the real answer, it seems unlikely that the mysterious #2 sa'angreal will make an appearance, but if it does, Demandred is as likely as anyone to have it.

 

Sorry, what's Justice?

[Mr Ares]

Very unlikely.  Not only is it unlikely that Hawkwing would have had a male sa'angreal for a sword, but if it were that powerful, Rand would certainly have thought of it as a sa'angreal, especially when considering alternatives to the Choedan Kal.  The fact that it is Justice (if indeed it is, as seems likely) is the bit that Rand knows, which no one else does.

 

I have sometimes wondered if the unknown #2 sa'angreal was something made for and used by Beidomon when they were originally creating the Bore.  Lews Therin/Rand often thought about how Mierin's obsession with power pre-dated the Dark One's advent, and she is the one who made the comment.  Also, I'm betting it took an unusual amount of the Power as well as skillful weaving to create the Bore.  At any rate, if that is the case then the sa'angreal was likely destroyed in the fall of the Sharom. 

 

Whatever the real answer, it seems unlikely that the mysterious #2 sa'angreal will make an appearance, but if it does, Demandred is as likely as anyone to have it.

 

Sorry, what's Justice?

Justice is Rand's sword, formerly the property of Artur Hawkwing.

[Guest HamboBlank]

Frankly, I suspect that if the Ring was indeed a sa'angreal, it was on LTT's hand when he decided to turn himself into a geothermal power station. ie. it's toast.

 

I just started a re-read of the series, and in one of the prologues to the first book, The Betrayer of Hope mentions to LTT that he used to wear the Ring.

 

Sorry don't have the book on me for the exact quote.

[NetSlider]

firstfishman, why do you think Demandred has it, he's the type of person I would think would launch himself at Rand and/or Moridin; that is unless he was promised great things by the DO.

On Justice being sa'angreal, highly unlikely, also Ishamael probably wouldn't have let Hawkwing keep it if it were.

On male angreal and sa'angreal, is it possible that the destruction was invented or carried out by rogues. What if that's the cash the Finns' have are male angreal and sa'angreal. No proof, just that if the Cheodan Kal were saved probably by a foretelling, why not others.

Luckers, your there is only one comment are you saying the leader of the AOL aes sedai was a highlander? ;D

 

Or maybe Moirene has is now as one of the three wishes. That's would blow my mind!

 

Idea about LLT having the ring (if it is the ring we are looking for here) actually makes a lot of sense as it always bugged me that he created the largest known mountain without any help; as the amount of power needed would be great (IMO at least).

Here's an idea, if the ring belong to the first person who channeled than maybe that's the answer to the successful prison construction. What if, and this is a big "if" but as I write this i like it more and more, the caps in The Eye of the World was the creator after all that it is not the last time he/she will appear. What if the ring is kind of like a link (a two way radio, if you will) with the Creator and now that Rand proved that he will not go crazy the Cretor will "give" him (in some way) the ring. I know it's crazy, but consider this, I've seen it asked before that when the lightning strike happened when LLT was creating Dragonmount was it the creator or not? Maybe it was after all and it would make sense that LLT had the ring with him than.

Anyway, I'll wait to see some RJ quote thrown my way and completely destroy another of my crazy thoughts. (But it all makes sense in my head, dude!)

[NetSlider]

Frankly, I suspect that if the Ring was indeed a sa'angreal, it was on LTT's hand when he decided to turn himself into a geothermal power station. ie. it's toast.

 

I just started a re-read of the series, and in one of the prologues to the first book, The Betrayer of Hope mentions to LTT that he used to wear the Ring.

 

Sorry don't have the book on me for the exact quote.

 

 

Didn't he say something about the Rod of Nine Dominions or something (I listen to audios, sorry).

 

 

[Majsju]

Frankly, I suspect that if the Ring was indeed a sa'angreal, it was on LTT's hand when he decided to turn himself into a geothermal power station. ie. it's toast.

 

I just started a re-read of the series, and in one of the prologues to the first book, The Betrayer of Hope mentions to LTT that he used to wear the Ring.

 

Sorry don't have the book on me for the exact quote.

 

 

Didn't he say something about the Rod of Nine Dominions or something (I listen to audios, sorry).

 

 

 

Nine rods of dominion. They were symbols of office, for nine governors. That LTT could summon them showed the political power that came with being the leader of the Aes Sedai.

[NetSlider]

Frankly, I suspect that if the Ring was indeed a sa'angreal, it was on LTT's hand when he decided to turn himself into a geothermal power station. ie. it's toast.

 

I just started a re-read of the series, and in one of the prologues to the first book, The Betrayer of Hope mentions to LTT that he used to wear the Ring.

 

Sorry don't have the book on me for the exact quote.

 

 

Didn't he say something about the Rod of Nine Dominions or something (I listen to audios, sorry).

 

 

 

Nine rods of dominion. They were symbols of office, for nine governors. That LTT could summon them showed the political power that came with being the leader of the Aes Sedai.

 

There we go, I knew something about rods

[lenardo]

i always "assumed" she meant the CK as well

 

as for the 9 rods of dominion, possibly "Oath rods"?

 

the AS one is number 3 the one galina/sevanna had was number 6 or 4?

[Majsju]

 

 

as for the 9 rods of dominion, possibly "Oath rods"?

 

the AS one is number 3 the one galina/sevanna had was number 6 or 4?

 

Nope. And thinking about it, I was wrong when I said that they were symbols of office. Rods of dominion was just the title for the people holding a specific position.

 

The Oath rods were called Binders in the AOL, as they were used to bind criminals.

[Thaed]

 

 

Idea about LLT having the ring (if it is the ring we are looking for here) actually makes a lot of sense as it always bugged me that he created the largest known mountain without any help; as the amount of power needed would be great (IMO at least).

 

 

 

You know...that makes some sense, especially with Rand saying in VoG that the amoun t of power he held was similiar to what he held when he created dragonmount.

 

About Demandred...doesn't someone state that if Rand gained Callandor he'd attack Rand instantaneously. true, he might be better at holding his temper these days but or he recently acquired it...but not sure

[herid]

firstfishman, why do you think Demandred has it, he's the type of person I would think would launch himself at Rand and/or Moridin; that is unless he was promised great things by the DO.

On Justice being sa'angreal, highly unlikely, also Ishamael probably wouldn't have let Hawkwing keep it if it were.

On male angreal and sa'angreal, is it possible that the destruction was invented or carried out by rogues. What if that's the cash the Finns' have are male angreal and sa'angreal. No proof, just that if the Cheodan Kal were saved probably by a foretelling, why not others.

Luckers, your there is only one comment are you saying the leader of the AOL aes sedai was a highlander? ;D

 

Or maybe Moirene has is now as one of the three wishes. That's would blow my mind!

 

Idea about LLT having the ring (if it is the ring we are looking for here) actually makes a lot of sense as it always bugged me that he created the largest known mountain without any help; as the amount of power needed would be great (IMO at least).

Here's an idea, if the ring belong to the first person who channeled than maybe that's the answer to the successful prison construction. What if, and this is a big "if" but as I write this i like it more and more, the caps in The Eye of the World was the creator after all that it is not the last time he/she will appear. What if the ring is kind of like a link (a two way radio, if you will) with the Creator and now that Rand proved that he will not go crazy the Cretor will "give" him (in some way) the ring.

Very very unlikely. That's not how the Creator works in WoT. According to RJ he doesn't take active part in anything.

 

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 18 January 2003, Harvard Coop - Tallis reporting

 

Rand has no direct connection with the Creator. The Creator is completely removed from the world; aside from ... creating ... the

Pattern, he does nothing else whatsoever to influence anything.

 

There are other quotes by RJ saying that the Creator does not interfere with anything.

I can see Rand possibly establishing some sort of direct link to the Creator or saidin in VoG, but the Creator actually giving him some object like a ring? no way.

 

It might be possible that Rand found some sa'angreal (maybe the one Lanfear mentioned) since VoG but it's very unlikely too. First, it would be a little too convenient. It would also be very strange given that he destroyed the Choedan Kal. Destroying that and getting another sa'angreal instead would be a rather strange plot twist. Lastly, there is a hint that Rand's power increase was already present when he visited Egwene in the Tower. That happened the very next day after VoG and he came there straight from Dragonmount. yet he seemed quite sure that he could break the shield on him if necessary.

[Jimvzyl]

I know that duality is a definitive theme in Randland, whether it be good & evil, male & female etc etc, but the duality between the DO and the Creator just doesn't fit too well with me when one is hyper-active in his attempts to affect, destroy, reshape the pattern and the other is just like, 'meh'. :)

[mbuehner]

I think Rand's confidence that the AS in the Tower couldn't hold him stemmed purely from his faith in his Tavarenness. No matter how strong a sa'angreal he might have, i don't think it follows the established rules that once he is shielded he could break through a complete circle via brute strength. I would think an angreal increases the total amount of power you can channel, if you cant channel any I dont know that it can help you. I'd say the simpler answer is that just as no-one else in the Tower could speak, the pattern would prevent them from stopping Rand from leaving.

[herid]

I think Rand's confidence that the AS in the Tower couldn't hold him stemmed purely from his faith in his Tavarenness.

I've seen this explanation offered a number of times but I consider it very unlikely. Ta'veren effect doesn't work on demand. The Dark Rand seemed to think it does but Tuon proved him wrong. The new Rand doesn't ever try to rely on it as a primary tool so far as we could tell. In his POV at the end he thinks that Egwene and co would find it hard to refuse him but he doesn't consider it a certainty and wonders what he would do if they did refuse.

 

No matter how strong a sa'angreal he might have, i don't think it follows the established rules that once he is shielded he could break through a complete circle via brute strength. I would think an angreal increases the total amount of power you can channel, if you cant channel any I dont know that it can help you.

I'm not sure about this. Brute strength in the Power is relevant to being able to break through shields even though it's not clear why that should matter either. But it might be different with an angreal or sa'angreal as you say.

 

But there are other options. Rand might have a permanent connection to saidin which simply can not be shielded (there is something along these lines judging by Avi's visions of his kids). there is also the fact that he no longer appears to have channeling sickness. or he may have created some sort of well in his head like the Eye of the World. RJ said that people can channel using wells even when shielded.

 

 

Q: Can someone channel from a Well while shielded?

 

RJ: Yes, they could. If they had the Well.

 

[tarvalon.net Q&A 26th of Febuary 2003, found through the Theoryland Interview Database]

[MauricXe]

Or maybe the other one just doesn't exist anymore i.e. is lost in this age. No need to read anymore into it.

[jwood01]

I know that duality is a definitive theme in Randland, whether it be good & evil, male & female etc etc, but the duality between the DO and the Creator just doesn't fit too well with me when one is hyper-active in his attempts to affect, destroy, reshape the pattern and the other is just like, 'meh'. :)

 

IMO, the main difference in action can be attributed to the fact that the DO is trapped, whereas the Creator is not. He/She will just let the pattern take care of itself, e.g. Ta'vern, spinning out champions, etc.

[Dagon Thyne]

From

 

http://dposey.no-ip.com/IdealSeek/IdealSeek.cgi?q=more+powerful+man

 

'There are only two more powerful that a man can use'

 

Note she doesn't say that only a man can use.

 

We have no evidence suggesting that there may be hermaphrodite *'angreals - or that there willl not, except that all the *'angreals we have seen to date are single-sex.. But,

we've seen that the Bowl of the Winds ter'angreal, while being used by women, nevertheless wove saidin as well as saidar.

 

I think Lanfear meant 2 that could only be used by a man. The Forsaken never learned how to link, so it's unlikely that she would refer to something that required linking.