Of the Blademasters, who are the top 5?

[Smittyphi]

I would say Valda would be a good candidate for the 4 or 5 spot.

Except that he's dead. With the number of blademasters killed, you would have to create lists for different time periods of the books.

[Kal11]

I would say Valda would be a good candidate for the 4 or 5 spot.

Except that he's dead. With the number of blademasters killed, you would have to create lists for different time periods of the books.

 

Dead or not he is still one of the better blademasters that we see on-screen.

[Entreri]

going off RJ and Brandon quotes it goes Lan, Rand, Galad then Gawyn

 

Probably get torn apart for saying this, but if it's true, I'm pretty disappointed with how Brandon wrote the Gawyn Scenes the last couple books. Gawyn vs Galad in the Tower was AGES ago, and they always suggested Gawyn held back because of how he felt he "owned" Galad. Once Galad left, and Gawyn took over the younglings, he blossomed (for lack of a better word).

 

Putting aside Brandon's quote I would unequivocally believe that Gawyn is the top swordsman. And one of the reasons, is that you'd think he'd be good for something... at least Galad still runs an army, which I doubt leaves much time to practice sword forms.

 

It's possible we just haven't seen enough combat scenes written by Sanderson. But the thought process we get from Gawyn while he fights is quite extensive, and that gave me the impression that he thinks much faster. Back in RJ's combat scenes, Rand would mention a form name now and then, but that was it. Gawyn's thought process just seemed much more advanced which gave the impression that he's better. I'd like to see a scene from Galad's PoV while he fights if he's supposedly still better.

 

Also! Maybe Galad is only ranked higher than Gawyn because of Gawyn's debt to Galad. It causes him to "go easy" on Galad. There could be people Gaywn can beat that Galad can't, but Galad can always beat Gawyn.

 

There is no doubt that Gawyn is not the top swordsman. He would get owned by many.

 

There is also not doubt Lan is #1. Both are factual, as stated by the authors.

 

Mat easily beat both Galad and Gawyn.

 

Lan has actually gotten better after Moraines death. Indirect proof: Perrin said in book 4 that Rhuarc = Lan. Aiel being the best fighters...

 

Lastly, Lan easily dispatched Toram Riatin, who was pretty close to #2, Rand.

 

Lan would own Valda and would not have the kind of trouble Galad did.

 

Q.E.D.

[Durinax]

I think rand and lan would be very closely matched if rand had both hands thus it goes

 

1 & 2 Lan and Rand (would be pending on a duel but since that wont happen since rand lost a hand)

3 gawyn

4 galad

5 Toram (last because he is deseased and could not think of a live one)

 

on a side note I wonder if rand remembers LTT blademaster skills now. . . afterall LTT was the best of the best during his time I believe

[BKVMC]

I expect Gawyn will get LOTS of practice with the sword defending egwene in the years to come!

[Kahsm]

going off RJ and Brandon quotes it goes Lan, Rand, Galad then Gawyn

 

Probably get torn apart for saying this, but if it's true, I'm pretty disappointed with how Brandon wrote the Gawyn Scenes the last couple books. Gawyn vs Galad in the Tower was AGES ago, and they always suggested Gawyn held back because of how he felt he "owned" Galad. Once Galad left, and Gawyn took over the younglings, he blossomed (for lack of a better word).

 

Putting aside Brandon's quote I would unequivocally believe that Gawyn is the top swordsman. And one of the reasons, is that you'd think he'd be good for something... at least Galad still runs an army, which I doubt leaves much time to practice sword forms.

 

It's possible we just haven't seen enough combat scenes written by Sanderson. But the thought process we get from Gawyn while he fights is quite extensive, and that gave me the impression that he thinks much faster. Back in RJ's combat scenes, Rand would mention a form name now and then, but that was it. Gawyn's thought process just seemed much more advanced which gave the impression that he's better. I'd like to see a scene from Galad's PoV while he fights if he's supposedly still better.

 

Also! Maybe Galad is only ranked higher than Gawyn because of Gawyn's debt to Galad. It causes him to "go easy" on Galad. There could be people Gaywn can beat that Galad can't, but Galad can always beat Gawyn.

 

There is no doubt that Gawyn is not the top swordsman. He would get owned by many.

There is also no doubt Lan is #1. Both are factual, as stated by the authors.

Mat easily beat both Galad and Gawyn.

Lan has actually gotten better after Moraines death. Indirect proof: Perrin said in book 4 that Rhuarc = Lan. Aiel being the best fighters...

Lastly, Lan easily dispatched Toram Riatin, who was pretty close to #2, Rand.

Lan would own Valda and would not have the kind of trouble Galad did.

Q.E.D.

 

Going to attack these in reverse order...

 

Lan & Valda: You don't know that, you think it.. plus it's irrelevant because I also said Gawyn is better than Galad, so I don't care how shitty Galad is.

 

Lan & Toram: Another person Gawyn has never fought

 

I supposed Lan might be worse since he's past his physical prime. It _is_ possible he's better. But even so, you can't say Gawyn hasn't gotten even better than that, since all he's been doing for two years is practicing.

 

Mat is _completely_ irrelevant, we're talking about blademasters. It's already been pointed out that a farmer with a qstaff is not to be underestimated. Plus we don't see Lan fight Mat, maybe mat could beat Lan too? And even if we see them fight and Mat loses to Lan, it could simply be because he knows not to underestimate a farmer with a qstaff, while Galad and Gawyn had not learned that yet. This brings us back to Gawyns 2 years of practicing and practical application in the younglings.

 

I didn't doubt Lan was #1 "Putting aside Brandon's quote I would[...]" - quote me

I was commenting on how he was written versus other supposedly better blademasters we get PoVs from.

 

"He would get owned by many" Even though Sanderson said he was "more lucky" regarding the bloodknives, your conclusion is bull. Gawyn beat a blademaster and another trained swordsman, at the same time, consistantly. That blademaster said Gawyn needed to get a heron-marked blade, because he had earned it. So no, "he would get owned by many" is absolutely not true. There are not "Many" blademasters out there, and we know that he's already better than the one he was dueling, possibly others.

 

Just because you have a man crush on Lan, and a hate on Gawyn, doesn't change the facts in the book. Lan is #1 (so says Sanderson), Gawyn is still exceptionally good.

[Entreri]

going off RJ and Brandon quotes it goes Lan, Rand, Galad then Gawyn

 

Probably get torn apart for saying this, but if it's true, I'm pretty disappointed with how Brandon wrote the Gawyn Scenes the last couple books. Gawyn vs Galad in the Tower was AGES ago, and they always suggested Gawyn held back because of how he felt he "owned" Galad. Once Galad left, and Gawyn took over the younglings, he blossomed (for lack of a better word).

 

Putting aside Brandon's quote I would unequivocally believe that Gawyn is the top swordsman. And one of the reasons, is that you'd think he'd be good for something... at least Galad still runs an army, which I doubt leaves much time to practice sword forms.

 

It's possible we just haven't seen enough combat scenes written by Sanderson. But the thought process we get from Gawyn while he fights is quite extensive, and that gave me the impression that he thinks much faster. Back in RJ's combat scenes, Rand would mention a form name now and then, but that was it. Gawyn's thought process just seemed much more advanced which gave the impression that he's better. I'd like to see a scene from Galad's PoV while he fights if he's supposedly still better.

 

Also! Maybe Galad is only ranked higher than Gawyn because of Gawyn's debt to Galad. It causes him to "go easy" on Galad. There could be people Gaywn can beat that Galad can't, but Galad can always beat Gawyn.

 

There is no doubt that Gawyn is not the top swordsman. He would get owned by many.

There is also no doubt Lan is #1. Both are factual, as stated by the authors.

Mat easily beat both Galad and Gawyn.

Lan has actually gotten better after Moraines death. Indirect proof: Perrin said in book 4 that Rhuarc = Lan. Aiel being the best fighters...

Lastly, Lan easily dispatched Toram Riatin, who was pretty close to #2, Rand.

Lan would own Valda and would not have the kind of trouble Galad did.

Q.E.D.

 

Going to attack these in reverse order...

 

Lan & Valda: You don't know that, you think it.. plus it's irrelevant because I also said Gawyn is better than Galad, so I don't care how shitty Galad is.

 

Lan & Toram: Another person Gawyn has never fought

 

I supposed Lan might be worse since he's past his physical prime. It _is_ possible he's better. But even so, you can't say Gawyn hasn't gotten even better than that, since all he's been doing for two years is practicing.

 

Mat is _completely_ irrelevant, we're talking about blademasters. It's already been pointed out that a farmer with a qstaff is not to be underestimated. Plus we don't see Lan fight Mat, maybe mat could beat Lan too? And even if we see them fight and Mat loses to Lan, it could simply be because he knows not to underestimate a farmer with a qstaff, while Galad and Gawyn had not learned that yet. This brings us back to Gawyns 2 years of practicing and practical application in the younglings.

 

I didn't doubt Lan was #1 "Putting aside Brandon's quote I would[...]" - quote me

I was commenting on how he was written versus other supposedly better blademasters we get PoVs from.

 

"He would get owned by many" Even though Sanderson said he was "more lucky" regarding the bloodknives, your conclusion is bull. Gawyn beat a blademaster and another trained swordsman, at the same time, consistantly. That blademaster said Gawyn needed to get a heron-marked blade, because he had earned it. So no, "he would get owned by many" is absolutely not true. There are not "Many" blademasters out there, and we know that he's already better than the one he was dueling, possibly others.

 

Just because you have a man crush on Lan, and a hate on Gawyn, doesn't change the facts in the book. Lan is #1 (so says Sanderson), Gawyn is still exceptionally good.

 

Where to begin, LOL, too easy.

 

Of course you are would be wrong. The author said Galad > Gawyn.

 

Next.

 

True, Gawyn has never fought Toram.

 

Next.

 

Warders retain their physical prime far longer than regular men, and stated in the books..The Warder gains greater stamina and physical prowess. Even in the real world there are exceptions (e.g. Randy Couture of the UFC at age 47). Lan has taken his training to another level after Moraine died.

 

Next.

 

In order to compare the top blademastes, one must compare how they do against other opponents as well, since most have not fought each other. General battle prowess. Furthermore, while the authors rank Lan, Rand (full limbs), Galad, Gawyn in that order, there are other blademasters to consider.

 

Mat was terrified that Lan would kill him after he insulted Nynaeve. He already knows Lan is far too much for him.

 

A STARVING, weakened Mat destroyed both Galad and Gawyn at once.

 

Next.

 

Either you are trolling this board or are truly dense. Let me spell it out: The author's said Lan is the best.

 

/thread.

[Kahsm]

[A lot of useless drivel about what the author said that isn't relevant because I have stated over, and over, again that I was talking about how Gawyn's scenes are written, and how the other blademaster spoke about him, that makes him SEEM better.]

 

I am not doubting Brandon Sanderson... I, and others in this thread who have agreed, find the evidence in the book to be contrary to that quote. That does NOT mean we don't believe him, or that we're insisting it's not true.

 

If you did not know the author said otherwise (which a lot of WOT readers do not), there are those who would be under the impression that Gawyn is one of the top, if not the top, swordsman in Randland. My only point is that it would not be an unreasonable conclusion, given how he's written. That is... if you put asside Sanderson's comment.

[Elan Tedronai]

lol at starving mat beating off galad and gawyn.

 

mat would get owned by the battle hardened gawyn right now. Infact gawyn can kill his own brother at the moment. i couldnt care less about what sanderson says. Gawyn is badass with a sword right now. He has been owning warder, blademaster, bloodknife, aiel you name it since his training at the white tower.

 

A few more years and he would murder lan too.

[Entreri]

lol at starving mat beating off galad and gawyn.

 

mat would get owned by the battle hardened gawyn right now. Infact gawyn can kill his own brother at the moment. i couldnt care less about what sanderson says. Gawyn is badass with a sword right now. He has been owning warder, blademaster, bloodknife, aiel you name it since his training at the white tower.

 

A few more years and he would murder lan too.

 

Those are all your assumptions and as everybody knows, they are all WRONG. That is a fact, since author said so. You can look up what RJ himself said, essentially the same thing.

 

I could assume the Demandred is Taim, and as everybody knows, I would be wrong.

 

You said that Rand (full limbs) would lose to Gawyn in a few seconds. Seriously? LOL. Rand is the DR, Gawyn is trash compared to him.

 

 

What is FACT, is that Mat (who was weakened, and starving) EASILY destroyed both Galad and Gawyn at once. Now that Mat has lost an eye, possibly, with both eyes, no chance as he has proven. Mat took on the GHOLAM. Nothing Gawyn, or anybody else does compares to that.

 

I do agree that Gawyn is badass, but nothing compared to the likes of Lan, Mat or Rand.

 

And obviously Galad would beat Gawyn.

[Entreri]

[A lot of useless drivel about what the author said that isn't relevant because I have stated over, and over, again that I was talking about how Gawyn's scenes are written, and how the other blademaster spoke about him, that makes him SEEM better.]

 

I am not doubting Brandon Sanderson... I, and others in this thread who have agreed, find the evidence in the book to be contrary to that quote. That does NOT mean we don't believe him, or that we're insisting it's not true.

 

If you did not know the author said otherwise (which a lot of WOT readers do not), there are those who would be under the impression that Gawyn is one of the top, if not the top, swordsman in Randland. My only point is that it would not be an unreasonable conclusion, given how he's written. That is... if you put asside Sanderson's comment.

 

If you have no clue of what the authors said...the entire series portrays Lan as the best. After that, it does become somewhat muddy.

 

You have also have to look at RJ's comment.

 

Combining the two, Lan, Rand then yes, the selection becomes interesting.

[WhiskyJack]

lol at starving mat beating off galad and gawyn.

 

mat would get owned by the battle hardened gawyn right now. Infact gawyn can kill his own brother at the moment. i couldnt care less about what sanderson says. Gawyn is badass with a sword right now. He has been owning warder, blademaster, bloodknife, aiel you name it since his training at the white tower.

 

A few more years and he would murder lan too.

 

 

Seeing that Mat basically owned a Gollum, I would say a big NO but we will never find out.

[Entreri]

lol at starving mat beating off galad and gawyn.

 

mat would get owned by the battle hardened gawyn right now. Infact gawyn can kill his own brother at the moment. i couldnt care less about what sanderson says. Gawyn is badass with a sword right now. He has been owning warder, blademaster, bloodknife, aiel you name it since his training at the white tower.

 

A few more years and he would murder lan too.

 

 

Seeing that Mat basically owned a Gollum, I would say a big NO but we will never find out.

 

This person is delusional. Even ignoring the Gholam, Mat destroyed Gawyn in a less than 5 seconds.

 

Then Mat defeated Aiel clan chief of the Shadio. Lan was cautioning Rand against fighting the Shadio clan chief!

 

Mat destroys Mydrraal like there is no tomorrow. Mat is the luckiest ta'avern ever, and his weapon naturally gives him an advantage.

 

Lastly, the physiological scar of that humiliation will be Gawyn's undoing. As the series has shown, Gawyn is the mental midget of the Trakand family.

 

No contest, fully sighted Mat once again destroys and humiliates Gawyn.

[Entreri]

"RJ: Rand is second only to Lan with the sword.

(Or at least, he was before he lost his hand.)"

[WhiskyJack]

This debate is pointless but I would not pit anyone in Rand world against Mat. We can debate to world's end who is best swordsman but one arrow is all it takes to kill best of best. I remember the scene in Knife of Dreams (?) where Gawyn goes head to head against an Aiel and wins purely by luck. So fighting is part luck too. And according to Sanderson, Gawyn is lucky. Can he defeat Lan with his "luck"? Maybe but Mat can bet against DO and win (or so they say). So Gawyn, don't fight Mat or your head will decorate the city of Seander stuck on a pike;)

[WhiskyJack]

"RJ: Rand is second only to Lan with the sword.

(Or at least, he was before he lost his hand.)"

 

 

Pah! As if RJ knows anything..

[Entreri]

"RJ: Rand is second only to Lan with the sword.

(Or at least, he was before he lost his hand.)"

 

 

Pah! As if RJ knows anything..

 

lol

 

Seriously, there is no room for debate at all. Given that RJ said Lan, then Rand. B.Sanderson qualifies and says Lan, Rand with both arms, Galad, Gawyn.

[Finnssss22]

This debate is pointless but I would not pit anyone in Rand world against Mat. We can debate to world's end who is best swordsman but one arrow is all it takes to kill best of best. I remember the scene in Knife of Dreams (?) where Gawyn goes head to head against an Aiel and wins purely by luck. So fighting is part luck too. And according to Sanderson, Gawyn is lucky. Can he defeat Lan with his "luck"? Maybe but Mat can bet against DO and win (or so they say). So Gawyn, don't fight Mat or your head will decorate the city of Seander stuck on a pike;)

 

 

Lan was also known for being incredibly lucky when he was younger and he wasn't the best swordsman then either.

You need some luck to live long enough to become the best but Gawyn is not there yet, Lan is.

[Nygma]

This debate is pointless but I would not pit anyone in Rand world against Mat. We can debate to world's end who is best swordsman but one arrow is all it takes to kill best of best. I remember the scene in Knife of Dreams (?) where Gawyn goes head to head against an Aiel and wins purely by luck. So fighting is part luck too. And according to Sanderson, Gawyn is lucky. Can he defeat Lan with his "luck"? Maybe but Mat can bet against DO and win (or so they say). So Gawyn, don't fight Mat or your head will decorate the city of Seander stuck on a pike;)

Not just luck, either. Someone mentioned the mental part is the biggest part of fighting. In New Spring we see Lan beating what's his face because he stayed mentally focused till the end.

 

If there's one person in this series that could match Lan's will to win or even exceed it, it would be Mat. He's always looking to avoid fighting, but when he can't get away from it, he goes all out. We've seen him crush throats, smash balls, bleed people, throw himself backwards off a bridge. When he has to fight, he intends to be the last one standing (or at least take the other guy down with him) and he brings it - all-out, balls-to-the-wall, never-say-die.

[Puddleglum]

What everyone seems to forget, ist that mat would be unbeatible even with a sword by simply putting on a blindfold. His Luck would make him the best Swordsman ever;)

Swordsman against swordsman is one thing, but in the last Battle it will be myrdraal and Trollocks and Gawyn and Galad still have to fight one of those. Well Galad actually did ill some Trollocks, but wasn't doing overly great. When it comes to battle line fighting lan would definitely best Gawyn and Galad ten times over but would in turn be bestet by perrin and his bad ass Hammer. That is going to be some great fun in AMOL.

well i'd like to see Lan fighting a couple of bloodknives. They would probably run away and talk tuon into abandoning the mainland;)

[omaleyb]

OK, several points but first my list.

 

Lan, Rand (two hands), Galad, Gawyn, ???

 

Now, just because RJ said it goes Lan then Rand at the time doesn't mean it's still true at this point in the story. Having said that. Lan is the best fighter with a sword, period. He has the most experience, the best training, a death wish mission, and he controls his emotions.

 

I think Valda was a weak blademaster based on some of the weaknesses noted in his technique, but Galad was always said to be better than Gawyn. They both have had ample opportunity to continue their training and get better, so I would bet that Galad is still better.

 

Finally, just because Gawyn has had some good scenes and beat some impressive foes does not mean that the other characters would not have done as well if not better.

 

Oh, and Mat does not belong in the discussion because his weapon would allow him to beat any of the others. It would be like bringing a knife to a crossbow fight.

[mackoY-kun]

Obviously the "Bloodknves" use knives, duh! Gawyn vs 3 knife even if they have super human strength and speed, their reach is still that of a knife. He bested Sleete and Marlesh a bunch of times, but Sleete only ever beat Lan twice out 7. (see tGS 15)

 

How long do you think did Rand train under Lan in Fal Dara? A month or 2? Then he went after Fain and beat a Blademaster in Toman Head. That is 2 months of training equaling a blademaster. Galad can't compare to that, much less Gawyn. Then Rand beat a bunch of top tier swordsman together in Caemlyn, I dont remember how many, but they were the best of the best. From the start of the story, I think it is implied that about 2 years have passed, that translates to mean he has only started studying the sword less that 2 years.

 

Lan on the other hand Beat 5 men at once in New Spring and that was before Moiraine bonded him. Okay you'll argue that Sleete was able to beat him twice and Gawyn beat Sleete hands down. That says nothing, since we don't know when he did beat Lan 2 out of 7 bouts. Was that before the Aiel War or after? (I think it was Implied or Said that he trained with the Warders before the Aiel War, so Sleete could have bested him then. Now is a different matter). At the time he beat 5 swordsman he was still young, I think. He still would have gained extra levels of skill since then.

 

Now about Valda and Galad, Galad was owned by Valda. So what? Valda is a VERY VERY GOOD Blademaster, he was a blademaster since he was very very young. And he had risen high in the whitecloak ranks because of that. This can also translate that he is maybe at par with Rand and Lan. But not Galad or Gawyn. Now How about

 

Galad vs Gawyn? Like I've said, Valda is not your average Blademaster. The Bloodknives are only knife wielding superhumans. Sleete is only said to be "near legendary"(see tGS 15), while Lan IS Legenday. And how could Gawyn ever hope to rival Galad when he has never been able to do so all those years? Galad has always been more than a step ahead of Gawyn, it is unlikely that he should suddenly pass him now, not unless it is actually said in the book that it is so, and right now it is not. Only comparison of events and you can't compare them equally. Again the point is Valda is a super blademaster and bloodknives are knife wielders.

[Kahsm]

Obviously the "Bloodknves" use knives, duh! Gawyn vs 3 knife even if they have super human strength and speed, their reach is still that of a knife. He bested Sleete and Marlesh a bunch of times, but Sleete only ever beat Lan twice out 7. (see tGS 15)

 

How long do you think did Rand train under Lan in Fal Dara? A month or 2? Then he went after Fain and beat a Blademaster in Toman Head. That is 2 months of training equaling a blademaster. Galad can't compare to that, much less Gawyn. Then Rand beat a bunch of top tier swordsman together in Caemlyn, I dont remember how many, but they were the best of the best. From the start of the story, I think it is implied that about 2 years have passed, that translates to mean he has only started studying the sword less that 2 years.

 

Lan on the other hand Beat 5 men at once in New Spring and that was before Moiraine bonded him. Okay you'll argue that Sleete was able to beat him twice and Gawyn beat Sleete hands down. That says nothing, since we don't know when he did beat Lan 2 out of 7 bouts. Was that before the Aiel War or after? (I think it was Implied or Said that he trained with the Warders before the Aiel War, so Sleete could have bested him then. Now is a different matter). At the time he beat 5 swordsman he was still young, I think. He still would have gained extra levels of skill since then.

 

Now about Valda and Galad, Galad was owned by Valda. So what? Valda is a VERY VERY GOOD Blademaster, he was a blademaster since he was very very young. And he had risen high in the whitecloak ranks because of that. This can also translate that he is maybe at par with Rand and Lan. But not Galad or Gawyn. Now How about

 

Galad vs Gawyn? Like I've said, Valda is not your average Blademaster. The Bloodknives are only knife wielding superhumans. Sleete is only said to be "near legendary"(see tGS 15), while Lan IS Legenday. And how could Gawyn ever hope to rival Galad when he has never been able to do so all those years? Galad has always been more than a step ahead of Gawyn, it is unlikely that he should suddenly pass him now, not unless it is actually said in the book that it is so, and right now it is not. Only comparison of events and you can't compare them equally. Again the point is Valda is a super blademaster and bloodknives are knife wielders.

 

Lan tells Rand he's almost a blademaster way off in Fires of Heaven when rand is thinking of going after Couladin himself. Now I think Rand notes that Lan's praise is few and far between and that "almost" likely translates to "is". Bust still, Rand practices the sword with Lan in the Stone, and then A LOT in the waste (along with spear and hands-and-feet with Rhuarc). So there's no way he was a blademaster in tGH just because he happened to best Turok. *cough* ta'veren *cough*

 

And I love how bloodknives are "only knife wielding superhumans" rofl. Yes, I'm sure the empire chose the worst possible weapon for such valuable troops. Maybe the speed and versatility of a knife works best, swords are too bulky? Also, I highly doubt they use kitchen knives... But lets trash Gawyn as much as we can because you don't like him.

 

Just like... "Sleete is only near-legendary" rofl. Yeah, lets totally shrug off the fact that sleete had Marlesh Gaidin fighting at his side against Gawyn.

 

And it's made quite clear that Gawyn always puts Galad ahead of himself because of how Galad saved his life twice and Gawyn feels he owes Galad for that. He always puts himself aside for Galad just as he originally did when Galad showed interest in Egwene. This would very likely translate to heir duels.

[damandred]

I think we are forgetting lord riatin. Who in CoS had rand on the back foot in there mock duel before the rude interuption by the mashadar.