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The Two Must Be As One


gambril
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Or some such that's at the tail end of the of the Aelfinn 'prophecy' to Rand.  Now I had always assumed this referred to Randland & Seanchan allying and becoming one in their vigilence against the shadow, but recently I'm not so sure.  Lately I've started thinking what if this refers to Aes Sedai and Ash'aman needing to become one in their purpose?  IIRC, this prophecy was mentioned in KOD to Cadsuane while Rand notices that Cadsuane is embroidering the ancient symbol of Aes Sedai!  A hint possibly?

 

If I'm right, it's pretty clear that Rand doesn't understand this, but perhaps Cadsuane has/will figure this out?  Why is she making the ancient symbol of Aes Sedai anyway?  We as well as Rand knows that he needs Cadsuane and still does even after the laughter & tears from Min.  So what if he needs her because she will in her irrating manner bring Rand AND Egwene to this realiztion?  Am I wrong? Thoughts? 

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According to Min,

"It's Cadsuane. She is going to teach you something, you and the Asha'man. All the Asha'man, I mean. It's something you have to learn, but I don't know what it is, except that none of you will like learning it from her. You aren't going to like it at all."

 

No mention of Egwene or other Aes Sedai.  Just that it's something they all have to learn and that they won't like learning it from Cadsuane.  At all.

 

It does make sense that the Ashaman and Aes Sedai have to learn to trust each other and cooperate, but the specific answer from the 'Finns -

"The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. If you would live, you must die."

is just ambiguous enough that it is natural to believe that it refers to the two power blocs who occupy those territories rather than the two blocs that represent the halves of the One Power.

 

Which is not to say that I think you're wrong, just that the answer is ambiguous enough that it could be either interpretation.

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True, but what lead credence to my wondering is that it is a complete sentence in itself.  And I can gurantee you that Rand and none of the Ash'aman will not like hearing that they must be as one with the Aes Sedai lol.  Why become one with Aes Sedai when they've proved time and again that they can't be trusted?  The only Aes Sedai Rand can trust is Elayne, Nynaeve and Moirane.  Egwene can't be trusted until she proves to him that her goals and his are the same, which they aren't because she wants to 'guide' him towards the towers goals instead of 'becoming one' with him and helping him.  It's really pretty sad if you think about it.  The towers true purpose and function is assisting the Dragon Reborn in the Last Battle, not putting him on a halter.  Oh well I guess; what will be will be lawl.

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Does it even matter? We already know:

a) Rand will Bind the Nine Moons (the empress, Fortuona) to serve him, so Randlanders and Seanchan will work together at TG; and more importantly:

b) Cooperation, especially between men and women, is this series' main theme. There's no doubt in my mind that Aes Sedai and Ashaman will have to work together for TG to be won (by the good guys, that is).

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Does it even matter? We already know:

a) Rand will Bind the Nine Moons (the empress, Fortuona) to serve him, so Randlanders and Seanchan will work together at TG; and more importantly:

b) Cooperation, especially between men and women, is this series' main theme. There's no doubt in my mind that Aes Sedai and Ashaman will have to work together for TG to be won (by the good guys, that is).

 

Umm, yes it matters.  We know these things but our lovable characters in Randland don't...so umm yeah.

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Does it even matter? We already know:

a) Rand will Bind the Nine Moons (the empress, Fortuona) to serve him, so Randlanders and Seanchan will work together at TG; and more importantly:

b) Cooperation, especially between men and women, is this series' main theme. There's no doubt in my mind that Aes Sedai and Ashaman will have to work together for TG to be won (by the good guys, that is).

 

There's nothing that says Rand will Bind the NIne Moons to serve him.

 

It said 'HE' would bind the nine moons to serve him. There is nothing about who 'HE' is. The Prophecy of the Dragon includes massive pieces that apply to Perrin and Mat.

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There is nothing about who 'HE' is. The Prophecy of the Dragon includes massive pieces that apply to Perrin and Mat.

Massive? Really? I know of two passages. There could be more, of course, but do you have any evidence to suggest that?

 

You might be right, but as everyone we know of refer to that part as being about Rand, I deduce that the context makes it clear it's supposed to be him.

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Since when has Rand gotten any part of the prophecies correct?

Well, what about

Into the heart he thrusts his sword,

into the heart, to hold their hearts.

Who draws it out shall follow after,

What hand can grasp that fearful blade?

When did he get it wrong?

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Since when has Rand gotten any part of the prophecies correct?

Well, what about

Into the heart he thrusts his sword,

into the heart, to hold their hearts.

Who draws it out shall follow after,

What hand can grasp that fearful blade?

When did he get it wrong?

 

Touche.

 

I almost typed "what has he gotten right other than the Stone" but left that out.

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Yes! Your quote will provide me with a more or less good example for my agreeing-with-already-said-things.

 

So. The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. If you would live, you must die.

 

The sentences with 'one' obviously sound as one thing. True. But don't you think it is strange, a so detailed prophecy? The part about living and dying makes the link for the Last Battle.

 

About the prophecy quoted over here, there are two parts. Two actions. As in the Prophecy about slaying his people with the sword of Peace, and destroying them with the leaf. Two parts, two actions. But always linked somehow together. I think it is the same here.

 

So all nations, divided into two conquerors, shall ally. And the two must be as one. It seems so obvious that it can't be the Seanchan and Rand allying. So something else shall be as one. The One Power? Men and women working together? Rand's soul? Merging together as in VoG?

 

So either Cadsuane teach them that men who can channel shall work with Aes Sedai and not despice them, or laughter and tears,  as did Rand in VoG. Another prophecy, may the heart of stone remember love, and the cold soul, tears (not sure about it). And Rand won't win Tarmon Gai'don with his pre VoG state.

 

The two must be as one refer either to Rand-LTT mergin (and all the integration with all past lives) or the Saidin-Saidar union. I rather think the first.

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It can refer to much

the obvious is the force of the Seanchean and of rand but what of the army Of Egwene or for this matter the borderland (infected with agent of the shadow as it is) ?

Then you think of Rand and Moridin , nice idea but Isha seam way to much the man of the dakr one .

Than the mater of those girl who pretend to be Aes sedai , even if they where a bunch of foolish before Egwene and Nynaeve shake their core to the ground (Healing of people stilled , travelling ,Moghedien stuff's) now they are decent enough not to be a burden to Rand , if they do the smart thing .

But to my point , The greatest failure of Lew Therin was not to go mad with the taint ,I mean without is move they would have been no third age at all , but failling to have the support of the female Aes Sedai .

No circle , imagine circle of 30 great channeller? and a bunch of them ! their will have been no taint at all I think because it will not have been only an half of the true source  but the whole weight of the patern , of time itself!

But I am loosing the point , it is obvious that this time female won't do the stupid thing (for a change in nearly three thousand year) and help male , without it no full victory can be achieve .

But to me this particular answer is for Rand to be whole again no voice in is head , no scary darkness around him no Moridin thing .

By the way he as already fulfilled much of the prophecies

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One point : if saidar had been used as well as saidin during the Sealing, saidar would have been tainted. Latra Posae Decum was right. Lews Therin's plan really was a mad plan. But I agree on both side of the One Power working together.

 

And a maxi size circle can go as far as 45 person linking together. And yes, most prophecies have been fullfiled. Hopefully. The books end in two books.

 

 

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Since when has Rand gotten any part of the prophecies correct?

Well, what about

Into the heart he thrusts his sword,

into the heart, to hold their hearts.

Who draws it out shall follow after,

What hand can grasp that fearful blade?

When did he get it wrong?

 

he got every part of it wrong. none of that has been fulfilled yet.

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Since when has Rand gotten any part of the prophecies correct?

Well, what about

Into the heart he thrusts his sword,

into the heart, to hold their hearts.

Who draws it out shall follow after,

What hand can grasp that fearful blade?

When did he get it wrong?

 

he got every part of it wrong. none of that has been fulfilled yet.

 

Err yes it has.

When Rand left Tear he stuck Callandoor into the floor of the heart of the stone.

He said he did it to remind them, in his absense, that he does rule there and to ensure they remind loyal as they knew he would return for it.

He then sent another Asha'man to get it for him before his failure with the Seanchan.

The Asha'man drew it out (complaining that Rand hadn't told him all of the inverted weaves around it - causeing him to almost die).

 

I think it is quite plainly fulfilled.

 

On a side note: I really need to add wheel of time words to my spell checker.

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Since when has Rand gotten any part of the prophecies correct?

Well, what about

Into the heart he thrusts his sword,

into the heart, to hold their hearts.

Who draws it out shall follow after,

What hand can grasp that fearful blade?

When did he get it wrong?

 

he got every part of it wrong. none of that has been fulfilled yet.

 

Err yes it has.

When Rand left Tear he stuck Callandoor into the floor of the heart of the stone.

He said he did it to remind them, in his absense, that he does rule there and to ensure they remind loyal as they knew he would return for it.

He then sent another Asha'man to get it for him before his failure with the Seanchan.

The Asha'man drew it out (complaining that Rand hadn't told him all of the inverted weaves around it - causeing him to almost die).

 

I think it is quite plainly fulfilled.

 

On a side note: I really need to add wheel of time words to my spell checker.

 

I agree with Yoniy0 and Lambada here. What had happened fits the prophecy.

Thor, your argument, to put it bluntly is ridiculous.

 

you dont think it has been fulfilled, so it is so.

You ahve no evidence to suggest what Rand did, didnt fulfill the prophecy, while what he did fit the descrpition of the prophecy.

 

You can say that you dont think this is what it meant. But you cant say that he did get it wrong, you have no valid arguement

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Yeha its hard to say Rand didn't fulfill it, since well he basically did :P He met all the requirements anyway, and Narishma has done nothing but follow Rand, and even used Callandor during the Cleansing. Whether its a self-fulfilled prophecy or not, its still fulfilled.

 

I am in the camp that believe Tuon marrying Mat is essentially binding her to Rand, being that he is Rands ally and friend. Thorugh that marriage the alliance will be created.

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well anyway the view that you have about prophecies is a little bit wrong .

Rand do not fulfilled the prophecies by following their instruction but by living is live the prophecies are much about a view of what the dragon will do if he live that what the dragon must do if he live .

My point is that he fulfilled  much that he doesn't even know about (he whole part on weeping on is grave )

To make  it simple think as if you had read all of those book expect  in a conditional state and then make a resume that you left behind (quiet obscure resume )

Prophecies are not instruction they are saying the best course of action

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Prophecies are fufilled when you do not know what you are doing. Eg aiel coming to tear, being the people of the dragon. eg rand's tatoos.

 

callandor thrusted into the ground means nothing. rand himself has stated that it was pretty pointless anyways in tgs.

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Prophecies are fufilled when you do not know what you are doing. Eg aiel coming to tear, being the people of the dragon. eg rand's tatoos.

 

callandor thrusted into the ground means nothing. rand himself has stated that it was pretty pointless anyways in tgs.

 

The fact that Rand stated it was pointless don't mean the prophecy hasn't been fullfiled. If what is stated in the prophecy looks like what happened, then it has been fullfiled. It's not happenstance that determines the fullfiling of the prophecy. The prophecies have to be completed. Either willingly, or by the effect of the Pattern/ta'verenness.

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Prophecies are fufilled when you do not know what you are doing. Eg aiel coming to tear, being the people of the dragon. eg rand's tatoos.

 

callandor thrusted into the ground means nothing. rand himself has stated that it was pretty pointless anyways in tgs.

 

 

I am sorry, but i think you are a bit mixed up on what prophecy means...

 

Based on your theory. Drawing Callandor in the first place was not fulfillment of prophecy. Rand knew what he was supposed to do. And did it.

 

He healed cutting chains of maddness. He knew what he was doing there. So that has not been fulfilled.

 

He went to the Aiel waste and viisted Rhuidean in the first place. He knew what he was doing.

 

He "shall slay his people with the sword of peace, and destroy them with the leaf."
Rand fulfilled that by telling all the Aiel about their history, he knew what he was doing there. So not fulfilled again.

 

While some prophecy is self-fulfilling, how can you say all of it is based on the above?

 

 

 

 

 

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"The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. If you would live, you must die."

 

The prophecy need not refer to any one thing. It could apply to all the dualities in the series, as is evidenced by the way it is worded (north and east must be as one, west and south, etc). I've listed a few here.

-> The Aes Sedai and Asha'man MUST work together, that much is clear. (The unwritten point here: men and women must work together)

-> Rand and Lews Therin MUST be as one, since their souls really are the same (this has happened).

-> The Rand/Moridin issue MUST be solved. (I am not proposing any sort of body swap / merger theory here, just that Rand and Moridin are linked, and have been since the beginning of tEotW. This link was heightened by the balefire stream-crossing in book 7.)

-> The Seachan/Randland conflict must end, with the result being some sort of alliance. Neither can face the armies of the Dark One and hope to win without the other.

 

[EDIT] As a side note -- Life/Death is another duality. One cannot live without dying. These two things ARE one -- neither exists without the other.

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Prophecies are fufilled when you do not know what you are doing. Eg aiel coming to tear, being the people of the dragon. eg rand's tatoos.

 

callandor thrusted into the ground means nothing. rand himself has stated that it was pretty pointless anyways in tgs.

 

The fact that Rand stated it was pointless don't mean the prophecy hasn't been fullfiled. If what is stated in the prophecy looks like what happened, then it has been fullfiled. It's not happenstance that determines the fullfiling of the prophecy. The prophecies have to be completed. Either willingly, or by the effect of the Pattern/ta'verenness.

 

I agree that this prophecy was clearly fulfilled however I never liked the way that it was, but I think that is just my preference. I prefer when they play out without the understanding of the characters or in a different way to their prediction. This prophecy just seemed to be fulfilled because rand had read it. It seemed to planned for me.

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Exactly; Rand knew he had to go to the Stone of Tear to get Callandor out. It wasn't the Pattern forcing him to do it by chance, he read it and decided to do it to answer whether he was the Dragon Reborn once and for all. So thats another example of a self-fulfilled prophecy. Then theres the Falme one; Verin told everyone about the five heading off, no one knew anything about it. And because of that only five decided to go. Another self-fulfilled prophecy. There is quite a few of them in the series; Min has like a billion of them, things that wouldn't happen if she didn't tell the person what she saw in their aura.

 

 

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