Who Would YOU Want Commanding YOUR Army in One ''Last Battle'' ?!!

[TheAngryDruid]

Matt in a heartbeat, and Niall is long dead.

 

I think there is probably a Seanchan that should be in the list, and possibly a Forsaken or two (Demandred).

 

There is another couple you missed: Al'Lan Mandragoran and Rhuarc. Got to be up there.

 

Still, I'd go:

 

1. Mat Cauthon

2. Rodel Ituralde

3. Gareth Byrne

4. Lan

5. Rhuarc

6. Davram Bashere

7. Agelmar Jagad

8. Perrin

9. Rand

 

And like I said, a Seanchan general + Demandred and a couple of other Clan Chiefs are probably in there as well.

 

 

[Coraxian]

Personally I don't see what Perrin and Rand are doing on that list.  Rand as a weapon, ok, but he's more of a strategist than a tactician in my eyes.  He's the King, Mat the general and Perrin, well, he's the first line commander.

 

As for the question: who would lead MY army: assuming you mean an army of regular infantry and cavalry units, I would pick Mat, hands down.

 

Apart from all the memories, the quick thinking, the down to earth mindset and the rest, at the end of the day he has luck at his side.

 

Again: I'm thinking "battle" here and not campaign.  Tactics and not strategy.

[Demiandre]

One of thr Seanchan General. They seems to be pretty good. (What is the name of the one weeping after his defeat against Rand in tPoD?? Galgan? Karede?)

 

I shall say that Bryne doesn't seem so strong compared to the reputation of the others. Ituralde made an incredible show against Tulan. Very impressive.

 

Bashere has very good advices.

 

Mat is the most backgrounded with many memories of battles. He can probably fight on every field and find a similarity with one of his memories.

 

Agelmar seems to be a sleeping lion, always ready to fight.

 

Bryne didn't do a lot of impressive stuffs. His raids are beeing defeated by Gawyn, because he didn't thought differently.

 

Unfortunately, one of the generals, or high ranking officer in this case, I like is dead. Pedron Niall was a thpughful general, quite good seeing all the captured flags he collected after battles.

[Muad Cheade]

Muad Cheade

Thank you very much for the nomination but I politely decline.

 

The most obvious choice would be Demandred.

 

This is basically the WoT equivalent of the arguments about who was the greatest general of all time. Some say Gustav Adolphus. Some say Napoleon. Some say Khalid Ibn Al-Walid. Some Caesar. It's all relative.

[Duskfire]

Assuming that all of the great captains are loyal to the light, if Mat were to fight any of them, he would instantly lose his luck due to perverting his purpose in the pattern. So luck will not save him, at all.

 

And bashere wasn't even at the battle of cairhien therefore your second point is totally invalid.

 

If you go by the assumption that his luck is created by the Pattern and not by the dagger, which is what I personally think it is.

 

The fact of the matter is, Mat came up with a plan in a matter of seconds that Rand, Lan and the Aiel Clan Chiefs deliberated over. And I am going on the assumption here that Rhuarc and Bain and so forth aren't completely clueless when it comes to tactics. I just don't see what the other great captains have that Mat doesn't have a superior version of. Tactics, weaponry, speed; not only that, but Mats handling of Tuon and putting Talmanes in charge suggests that he is quite good at handling political situations, more so then people give him credit for.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Yeah, Ill have to say Mat is the man for the job here.

 

I mean, he has numerous (100's 1000's?) of memories of battle in his head.

 

He is the luckiest man alive, that seems to extend to his plans and those around him.

 

He is Taveren.

 

What more could you want? Really, he is the best for it.

 

In my opinion, in order of the greatest generals still alive i would say.

 

1. Mat

2. Demandred

3. Ituralde

4. Galagan or Yulan, whatever the senchan fella's name is.

5. Bashere

6. Agelmar

7. Rhuarc

8. Byrne

 

Of course, thats no given, but that would be my list.

[farthammer]

It's not that Mat is lacking anything, but the Band is an elite unit whose members are self selecting.  Larger infantry forces really are just average with exceptional men canceling out the guy that uses his sword to dig latrines.  It'd be like taking <insert real world special forces guy> and making him lead cannon fodder troops.

[Duskfire]

It's not that Mat is lacking anything, but the Band is an elite unit whose members are self selecting.  Larger infantry forces really are just average with exceptional men canceling out the guy that uses his sword to dig latrines.  It'd be like taking <insert real world special forces guy> and making him lead cannon fodder troops.

 

Aren't alot of the soldiers unskilled, which is why Mat originally adopted the idea of having a larger percentage of crossbowmen compared to other armies, because crossbows are vastly easier to use then a standard bow. I had always thought that was one of Mats strengths; making men useful when in general they just wouldn't be.

[farthammer]

Yeah true I suppose I was just thinking about how the Band is regarded in the latest book, a bunch of veterans that are out doing things larger infantries just haven't been.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Yeah true I suppose I was just thinking about how the Band is regarded in the latest book, a bunch of veterans that are out doing things larger infantries just haven't been.

 

Remember the Band is pretty big now, 20,000 or something (not sure on the exact number)

 

And just because we havent seen him lead big numbers of troops personally, doesnt mean his ill fitted.

 

Also, he bascially outlined the plan against the Shaido in Cairhien in minunites, when Rand and his Aiel spend hours working on it.

 

He aslo planned the invasion of Illian.

 

So yeah, I see him as a great general.

[farthammer]

I don't disagree with any of that, but in last battle numbers 20k is very small and I'm moreso against him being in charge of whatever ridiculous number of soldiers end up participating, that's all.  Also I'm not using this as a supportive point in this case, but I think the Aiel were not immediately accustomed to war planning in wetlander terrain/cities.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I don't disagree with any of that, but in last battle numbers 20k is very small and I'm moreso against him being in charge of whatever ridiculous number of soldiers end up participating, that's all.  Also I'm not using this as a supportive point in this case, but I think the Aiel were not immediately accustomed to war planning in wetlander terrain/cities.

 

Your right in both points, but Lan was also involved in the planning along with other Tariens and Cairhienin (although to a lesser extent) plus the fact that Mat did it in a few min. while it took a whole heap of people a few days. (We dont really know how long so i suppose that doesnt support my case)

 

And I agree with the other point, 20k is small, but remember, prior to the Aiel crossing the Dragonwall, 5,000 was considered a big army.

 

So the question is, who would you use to command TG, thus, who do you think would be best suited.

 

So none of the other Great Generals have had much experience with massive armies prior to the Dragonwall crossing, and Mat has played a big part in two of the biggest (in terms of numbers) battles.

 

So why I agree that it would certainly be difficult for him to command that many people, it would also be the same for the rest (except Demandred, but he isnt likely to help out).

 

I will put in as a note however, that Mat has memories of Trolloc wars - Hawkwing. IF you remember, he knows how to form Legions, and Banners and such, the way they did in those times, which is much more efficiant for larger groups of troops than current tactics.

 

So basically, while he might not be equipped to deal with millions of trollocs and half a million soldiers, the others are less qualified

[farthammer]

Bryne for now, probably.  He already has a relationship with the WT, access to women who can make gateways, Siuan's eyes and ears, has a head start on improving Whitecloak relations in all this with Galad.  Various other intangibles that I believe are important given the way things deteriorated in the AoL.  He is widely known and respected without other nations needing to worry he will seek power for himself.  Looking back at LTT I think he had way too much on his plate, even though he didn't really want all that power.  But it all fell apart, not that I think he is solely responsible for people turning to the shadow, but he probably gave people a nudge in that direction by just crowding everyone out.

[Tollieman]

It's not that Mat is lacking anything, but the Band is an elite unit whose members are self selecting.  Larger infantry forces really are just average with exceptional men canceling out the guy that uses his sword to dig latrines.  It'd be like taking <insert real world special forces guy> and making him lead cannon fodder troops.

 

I don't get this? I can recall Mat wishing that house *** outranked house *** because Edorian (I think) was smarter than Nalesean. So rank still applies?

 

And all the comments about Mat not being suited to commanding bigger armies - Where the heck do you get that? He went from NEVER commanding ANYONE, to winning the field in Cairhien using a group that were (but for him) about to get wiped out.

 

Now why would we assume this guy couldn't command a larger army? If I could have 5 of him, each in the top 5 ranks of his army, I would - ahead of anyone.

[farthammer]

Edit:  Nevermind I don't think you really read any of the posts in the thread.

[Coraxian]

Remember that Mat is an incarnation of the Odin figure, which leads to the safe assumption that in the future he will be remembered as "the father of battle" or the son of battle I think the Eelfin called him.

 

There is nor will be any better general in the same way that there is, nor will be any channeler that's stronger than Rand.

[Lady Beslan]

Who would I want commanding MY army in the Last Battle? A general answer: Mat. Out of all the charcaters in 'Randland' I think he is, overall, the best General and Battle Commander that there is. Even if you don't count the luck and past memories of battle, he has the intuition and tactical skill to lead an army successfully, and adapt to situations. Admittedly, if he did not have the luck or battle memories, I would possibly choose, because of his experience in battles, Rodel Ituralde, however that is not the case.  ;)

 

However, saying that, I do not believe that Mat would be the best choice to command the entire Last Battle, and I would possibly say someone more trusted, respected and well known - Ituralde, Bashere or Agelmar - would be a better choice, if only for the fact that there may be more trust (from the soldiers) in them, and so more hope in the chances of winning.

 

Although, still, I don't know. Depends what you mean by 'command' I suppose. In my mind, I do not believe that one man alone will command the army in the Last Battle, instead I think that all the generals will plan out the strategies and tactics, and maybe each lead a part of the army in the Last Battle (sort of like Mat did in Cairhien - he was not in charge of the whole battle, but he had a large chunk of the army under his command, and his command alone, and his choices were not influenced by anyone else, meaning he could adapt the situations to the best of his ability without having to consult, say, Rand, Lan or Rhuarc).

 

If that were to be the case, then I believe I would have Mat in charge of, what I would call, the main chunk of the army - maybe made up of Seanchan and the Red Hand - which would have the largest number of troops, and his main goal was to fight against the main chunk of Trollocs and Fades, considering that there would probably be attacks from more than one side and the Darkside's troops are unlikely to be distributed evenly, like the Lightside's. Either way, I would think that Mat would have an active role in the fight, rather than watching and commanding from the sidelines, like, I think, he did in Knife of Dreams - although I'm not too sure on that.

 

I suppose, in summary what I'm saying is that the Last Battle reminds me of the battle of Cairhien from tFoH. It probably won't be like that at all, but that's the only way I can picture it, and so I believe that there will be more than one person commanding the battle but maybe one person claiming to be leading it (like Rand did, I suppose) so that the soldiers have hope and faith in their leaders decisions and delegations. I would like Rand to give Mat more authority than the rest of the Captains though, as I do think he is better than them and would make better decisions concerning tactics and strategies, and maybe even delegations because of his knowledge of when legions were used in Artur Hawkwing time - as someone mentioned earlier.

 

You'd be mistaken to think that Mat has any more than 50/50 chance against any of the great captains.

 

War is dynamic, using dead memories will get you nowhere against a living opponent who is acting properly.

 

I don't think it would be a mistake to think that Mat has more than a 50/50 chance against any of the great captains. Mat has the advantages of his luck, his ta'veren influence, and, as you mentioned, his dead memories. We have proof of him using those memories to his advantage against living opponents who were acting 'properly' in Book 5 and he uses the military knowledge that came with them more than the actual memories of the battles, which I would say, puts him on the same level as the 5 Great Generals. With his luck, ta'veren influence, his good leadership skills and the new weaponry which he is funding for his army, and not to mention his links to high status - The Dragon Reborn, the Empress of the Seanchan, the Queen of Andor and the Amyrlin Seat - which place him in quite a nice place politically (although, there are conflictions there, but one would assume they'd be cleared up, even if only temporarily, for Tarmon Gai'don) it is not a mistake to argue that he would have more of an, at least, 75% chance of success against any of the Great Captains.

 

Weiramon

 

Well, if he's good enough for Lews, I suppose he's good enough for the rest of us!  ;D

 

By the way, sorry for the long post, and sorry if it doesn't make sense. I kind of forgot what I was going to write half way through so kind of waffled a bit... :)

[a_lily_in_winter]

Watching all of the fanboys pop up to defend Mat is quite amusing.  Mat has done very well but so has a lot of others.  And in the end he is a field general more then a general in charge of all of the operations.  Itulralde has done particularly well.  Bashere helped Rand a lot with Illian and the Seanchen campaign.  Perrin did well at Malden as well.  Gareth Bryne shows an uncanny ability to judge people but hasn't really been tested in the series as a general.  Galgan has proved to be more then capable for the Seanchen.

 

There are plenty of armies to go around.  Therefore I would chose:

 

Overall head general:

 

Galgan.  (He would appease the Seanchen and has the most experience ordering multiple armies.)

 

Political leaders:

Rand (overall)

Elayne, Egwene, or one of the Borderland leaders (representing N and W)

Tuon (representing S and E)

 

Council under Galgan who directly tell the field generals what to do and do Logistics. 

 

Bashere: appointed by Rand to direct field generals

Perrin: Logistical person appointed by Rand

Two people appointed by Tuon

Gareth Bryne: direct field generals

Agelmar: logistics (knows the blight and has experience with large armies)

Logain head of all male chanellers

Someone Egwene appoints head of all female chanellers excluding damane.

Captain of the air (Yulan?)

Captain of the navy.

 

Field generals.

 

Mat

Itulralde

A general from Seanchen.

Rhuarc (to be held in reserve for very critical point with all of the Aiel.)

Galad leading WC plus others

Tam leading Perrin's troops

Another Seanchen general chosen by Tuon

 

The first three would be my primary field generals leading the largest armies and going to the most critical locations. 

 

Anyway my main point is that there is plenty of general action to go around and everybody will be needed. 

[The Fisher King]

I will make 3 Points:

 

1 I agree with almost everything ***lily in winter*** said EXCEPT for one thing. I would NOT have Elayne Trakand on ANY list of ''Top Political Leaders'' ... In fact, it makes me scared. I understand she is very young...but that little blonde girl is a Walking Disaster, LOL!!! ... If not for The Amazing and Important Dyelin (who I think is kinda Hot for some weird reason I can't quite put my finger on), Andor would be rubble and ashes.

 

2 For all those that have refused to list Perrin - and all those that have asked why Perrin is on a list of Top ''Military Commanders'' ... I would simply say: Read Dumai's Wells in LOC and about Malden in KOD ... you won't wonder anymore ;-)

 

3 About Mat. He is brilliant. BUT ... The only MINOR concern I would have about him is the fact that his brilliance comes from planning (QUICK Planning) and leading from the rear ... the military term for this is a ''Rear General.'' ...Buuut. TG, I don't think Generals will have that luxury. Mat does it because he doesn't want holes poked in him (or his nice green coat) and because he learned it from Comadric...I think at TG everyone will need to be commanding from a more frontal view and we haven't really seen Mat do this (you can't really count FOH. Rodel is a MASTER of this. So is Perrin.

 

 

Fish

[Thor]

I don't think it would be a mistake to think that Mat has more than a 50/50 chance against any of the great captains. Mat has the advantages of his luck, his ta'veren influence, and, as you mentioned, his dead memories. We have proof of him using those memories to his advantage against living opponents who were acting 'properly' in Book 5 and he uses the military knowledge that came with them more than the actual memories of the battles, which I would say, puts him on the same level as the 5 Great Generals. With his luck, ta'veren influence, his good leadership skills and the new weaponry which he is funding for his army, and not to mention his links to high status - The Dragon Reborn, the Empress of the Seanchan, the Queen of Andor and the Amyrlin Seat - which place him in quite a nice place politically (although, there are conflictions there, but one would assume they'd be cleared up, even if only temporarily, for Tarmon Gai'don) it is not a mistake to argue that he would have more of an, at least, 75% chance of success against any of the Great Captains.

 

i have stated already which you very very conveniently ignored. The great captains serve the light, if Mat ever fights against them, he will LOSE his luck IMMEDIATELY.

 

so stop bringing this nonsense about luck, because it is only with the pattern's permission that he is winning anything. if he decides to be a hooligen, he always get caught.

[farthammer]

Well that really doesn't make any sense to me, really.  The broad collection of people and forces making up the 'forces of light' or whatever have warred with eachother quite a bit over time, and still do.  In this situation there is not always a clear good or evil, and if Mat found himself in the middle of a battle against one of the other captains somehow it doesn't necessarily make him evil either.

[Shadow Rider]

LoL!....The son of battles!,The trickster!,The gambler!.

MAT!....MAT!....MAT!....MAT!

[Chance]

While I would want Mat on my side. I'll take Lan over anybody else, including forsaken.

[Hadilmir]

i have stated already which you very very conveniently ignored. The great captains serve the light, if Mat ever fights against them, he will LOSE his luck IMMEDIATELY.

 

so stop bringing this nonsense about luck, because it is only with the pattern's permission that he is winning anything. if he decides to be a hooligen, he always get caught.

So, by your logic, Rand lost his Ta'veren nature just before he almost destroyed the world? But wait, he didn't? Well, someone must be wrong, and it is RJ's book.  :P

 

(I'm not picking at you, read my post in a lighthearted manner, because that's the voice I typed it in)

 

You are right though, Mat becoming a Darkfriend would likely negate his Ta'vereness. But in politics, Good and Evil blur a bit, I'm sure Mat would find a way to wage war against a Light force and remain in the Pattern's good graces.

[Chance]

i have stated already which you very very conveniently ignored. The great captains serve the light, if Mat ever fights against them, he will LOSE his luck IMMEDIATELY.

 

so stop bringing this nonsense about luck, because it is only with the pattern's permission that he is winning anything. if he decides to be a hooligen, he always get caught.

So, by your logic, Rand lost his Ta'veren nature just before he almost destroyed the world? But wait, he didn't? Well, someone must be wrong, and it is RJ's book.  :P

 

(I'm not picking at you, read my post in a lighthearted manner, because that's the voice I typed it in)

 

You are right though, Mat becoming a Darkfriend would likely negate his Ta'vereness. But in politics, Good and Evil blur a bit, I'm sure Mat would find a way to wage war against a Light force and remain in the Pattern's good graces.

 

Over the years, I've wondered about Mat's luck and his Ta'verenness (sp?). I don't think that's the question. What if Mat lost his memories turning to the Great Lord.  What happens if Mat went dark, and he lost his ta'verenness and luck, but kept his memories?  Would love to see Mat v. Lan in the final battle.

 

Just having fun. Sorry to interrupt.