A Memory of Length

[TheDecline01]

I was thinking, the War of the Shadow lasted something like what, 10 years?

 

And we're all dying waiting for the series to come to an end in 2 books, without the Last Battle actually having been started (or not?). In the previous 12 books, only a 2-3 years span was covered whereas a big war should suppose a great length of time.

 

Do you think the Last Battle will be something like a blitzkrieg with major battles but with the forces of Light rapidly (2-3 months) going to Shayol Ghul (or anywhere else to wipe out the Dark One) or will we have some references to the length of battles along the lines of "2 years now that they were stuck in Tarwin's gap, and no side had advanced even an inch" and a Last Battle lasting for a decent amount of time?

 

I might be totally about how the events will go (no military battle maybe), but if there had to be a big Last Battle, I'd find it hard to swallow for it to last a couple of months.

 

Your thoughts?

[TheDecline01]

Humm ... It was originally supposed to be posted in the General Wheel of Time Discussion section ... Ahem. Moderators?

[Thor]

First of all, war of the shadow involved far larger numbers.

 

Secondly, Rand is obviously going for a quick strike rather than drawing out the battle. (Lew Therin should have done his attack on the bore much earlier also you might argue)

[Duskfire]

The impression I get is that Rand won't have much time. He basically has to attack fast and hard and probably work out a number of things on the fly. Even the Trolloc Wars went for three centuries, but the good side is better equipped to handle the Shadow now. However, its still probably going to be alot of chaos and death.

[JenniferL]

Keep in mind, all the prophecies refer to a "Last Battle", which in my mind represents a singular event, or series of events closely linked. I don't think we're going to get a second War of Power this time.

[yoniy0]

The way I think it's going to go down, the battle will occur on multiple fronts, and the situation will become very bleak for the forces of Light. I think whatever Rand does to try and win TG will be a desperate attempt to stop the fight before all is lost. Kinda like (Lost minor spoiler, in case there's still someone out there who didn't watch the last episode) Jack going to the center of the island with John. You don't really know what's going to happen, but you have to give it your best shot.

[DocBean]

This battle isn't going to be fought the way the Dragon thinks it will.

 

There is no reason to believe that the Final Battle will be a battle at all.

It could easily come down to these two options:

 

1. Rand faces and kills the Dark One upon release.

2. Rand seals up the Dark One before or after release.

 

One option is an end to all things. The other option keeps the wheel spinning for another age.

 

In the past Age the war went on for 100 years because the Dark One was trying to get Lews to kill him.

Lews opted for option 2, but it took a while to happen.

 

It's a good thing he didn't listen to the Aes Sedai who created the Chodan Kal to overpower the Dark One.

He might have made a big mistake.

[Kaznen]

The War of Power lasted 10 years but there was a 50-100 years decay in society between the drilling of the Bore and the first strike by the shadow. 

[Dida]

I was thinking, the War of the Shadow lasted something like what, 10 years?

 

And we're all dying waiting for the series to come to an end in 2 books, without the Last Battle actually having been started (or not?). In the previous 12 books, only a 2-3 years span was covered whereas a big war should suppose a great length of time.

 

  Well, there is that WoT equivalent of a transcontinental nuclear missile option to end the Last Battle quickly, as was given in Light in 'The Shadow Rising', Chapter 10 and again in 'The Path of Daggers', Chapter 24.

 

 

  Or as Rand says:

 

“Nobody stands nose-to-nose with the Dragon Reborn,” Rand growled.

 

  Even the Shadow can't win head to head against the Dragon Reborn using Callandor. 

 

  An open question is does the Dragon Reborn want to pay the price to end the Last Battle or not?

 

 

 

 

Do you think the Last Battle will be something like a blitzkrieg with major battles but with the forces of Light rapidly (2-3 months) going to Shayol Ghul (or anywhere else to wipe out the Dark One) or will we have some references to the length of battles along the lines of "2 years now that they were stuck in Tarwin's gap, and no side had advanced even an inch" and a Last Battle lasting for a decent amount of time?

 

  Maybe the Last Battle could last into late summer or fall at most in length of time?  Short but excessively bloody? 

 

 

  Blitzkrieg should be used from unexpected locations, is what I expect from the Shadow in the Last Battle.  Major Battles in the 'South' out of the Shadow Coast, that's been hinted at since at least 'The Great Hunt' book; as in, ‘A south wind brings a warm guest, a north wind an empty house’. 

 

  The lack of wolves in places where they should exist in large numbers is another huge clue, something else is happening in the 'South'.  Wolves being killed by Slayer in the Mountains of Mist to no wolves being in Amadicia along the Shadow Coast Mountains border strangely to no wolves in central-southern Altara.  The spotting of a pack of at least 50 Shadowbrothers/Darkhounds in Altara is another set of clues. Just as the earlier knowledge of Shadowbrothers in Jarra and Remen is a hint, something more is happening in the 'South'. 

 

 

  I do expect Two Rivers to be invaded again by Shadowspawn.  I speculate the Mat's Band of Red Hand is going to end up using their Masons to build a new bridge across the Manetherendrelle River somewhere close to the Tower of Ghenjei.  There might be a 50-50 chance the Horn of Valere will be blown again to save Mat's native homeland of Two Rivers.

 

  The 'Tower of Morning' is not in the 'North' in the Borderland nations, but in the 'South' nation of Tarabon in Tanchico. 

 

 

 

 

[Charlz Guybon]

I thought this was gonna be about how much longer AMoL turned out to be than originally expected. Assuming Sanderson's projection is right ToM will be 320-325k words, and TGS was 300k. If AMoL is as long as the shortest WoT book (TPoD 226k)the three books together will be longer than the Bible.

[Suttree]

I was thinking, the War of the Shadow lasted something like what, 10 years?

 

And we're all dying waiting for the series to come to an end in 2 books, without the Last Battle actually having been started (or not?). In the previous 12 books, only a 2-3 years span was covered whereas a big war should suppose a great length of time.

 

   Well, there is that WoT equivalent of a transcontinental nuclear missile option to end the Last Battle quickly, as was given in Light in 'The Shadow Rising', Chapter 10 and again in 'The Path of Daggers', Chapter 24.

 

 

   Or as Rand says:

 

“Nobody stands nose-to-nose with the Dragon Reborn,” Rand growled.

   

   Even the Shadow can't win head to head against the Dragon Reborn using Callandor. 

 

  An open question is does the Dragon Reborn want to pay the price to end the Last Battle or not?

 

 

 

 

As Bashere says Rand wasn't exactly thinking right.

[TheDecline01]

Ok.

 

Cause i'd like it very much not to have a big open war between massive armies clashing in the Blight. That'd a poor ending, and an over hollywoodian one, most unsatisfactory. The quick, sneaky strike at Shayol Ghul with a battle another level than just physical, that would surely be awesome.

[Dagon Thyne]

In the beginning of the War of the Shadow it took time to convert the technology of the Age of Legends into weapons....remember that the AOL was a era of complete peace with no weapons whatsoever....It would have take a few years for factories to be able to be fully converted into weapons manufacturing facilities.

 

Plus there were millions of more people in the AOL on both sides.  They would have had alot better medical tech too so wounded would be healed more effectively, causing the war to last longer. 

 

 

 

 

[garryowen]

/snip/

1. Rand faces and kills the Dark One upon release.

 

One option is an end to all things.

/snip/

 

What is your proof for that statement? I agree if you mean he kills the DO with balefire. However, given that the Choedan Kal have been destroyed that seems to be an incredibly unlikely scenario, even with Callandor. If, however, somewhere in the depths of Lews Therin's memory there exists a possibility for permanently slaying the Dark One and preserving the Wheel of Time then it seems that Rand might not be so naive to inform Moridin that he is going to end the war permanently. Maybe one of those memories are tickling the back of Rand's mind in TGS?

[DocBean]

What is your proof for that statement? I agree if you mean he kills the DO with balefire. However, given that the Choedan Kal have been destroyed that seems to be an incredibly unlikely scenario, even with Callandor. If, however, somewhere in the depths of Lews Therin's memory there exists a possibility for permanently slaying the Dark One and preserving the Wheel of Time then it seems that Rand might not be so naive to inform Moridin that he is going to end the war permanently. Maybe one of those memories are tickling the back of Rand's mind in TGS?

 

My proof is at the beginning of every book.

Remember that little bit about Time being a Wheel, and Ages come and go, but they're destined to be repeated?

 

If the Dark One dies, then how will future Ages repeat the Pattern?

The only possibility that I can see is if the Dark One dies, then a new Dark One will take his place.

Possibly Fain, or Rand himself.

 

I believe the Dark One wants to Die, and Rand is the only one that can kill him.

That's why in previous ages when Rand switched over to the Shadow, a New Age still began.

The only way for the Dark One to destroy time forever, is to die.

[CUBAREY]

That's why in previous ages when Rand switched over to the Shadow

 

 

We have no proof that this ever happened. It is only asserted by Ishmiel who Jordon called a lying lier that lies.

 

Further although all previous victories and defeats are relative in that they were incomplete there is much to argue that if Rand would have been turned in any of the the DO's victory would have been complete (he would have been freed from his prison).

[DocBean]

We have no proof that this ever happened. It is only asserted by Ishmiel who Jordon called a lying lier that lies.

 

We have what Robert Jordan said:

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 16 January 2003, Dayton, OH - Tim Kington reporting

 

RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

 

I'd say that's pretty clear. Unless someone from Team Jordan has said that he was misquoted.

[DocBean]

so the next question is, how can there be a draw?

 

well a few ways:

1. The world unites against the Shadow and the Dragon and overpowers them.

2. Ishmael or whoever the Champion of the Shadow is, converts to the light and wins.

3. The Dark One kills everyone (bye bye dinosaurs) and the world is reborn from micro-organisms.

 

my theory is that unless he actually dies, the wheel keeps turning.

[Suttree]

We have no proof that this ever happened. It is only asserted by Ishmiel who Jordon called a lying lier that lies.

 

We have what Robert Jordan said:

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 16 January 2003, Dayton, OH - Tim Kington reporting

 

RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

 

I'd say that's pretty clear. Unless someone from Team Jordan has said that he was misquoted.

 

Above you say "in previous ages when Rand went over to the Shadow" Jordan answers the Champion of Light has gone over. Not Rand or The Dragon has gone over. So is the Champion of the Light always the soul of LTT and Rand?

[Entretamis]

We have no proof that this ever happened. It is only asserted by Ishmiel who Jordon called a lying lier that lies.

 

We have what Robert Jordan said:

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 16 January 2003, Dayton, OH - Tim Kington reporting

 

RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

 

I'd say that's pretty clear. Unless someone from Team Jordan has said that he was misquoted.

 

Above you say "in previous ages when Rand went over to the Shadow" Jordan answers the Champion of Light has gone over. Not Rand or The Dragon has gone over. So is the Champion of the Light always the soul of LTT and Rand?

 

I dont think the dragon is always the champion of light. I read this somewhere, maybe it was a quote from RJ.

 

Also someone on the boards had a theory that Ishy was the champion of light during AoL, and he turned, and that that age ended in a draw.

[DocBean]

Above you say "in previous ages when Rand went over to the Shadow" Jordan answers the Champion of Light has gone over. Not Rand or The Dragon has gone over. So is the Champion of the Light always the soul of LTT and Rand?

 

I don't think it has to be Rand.

However, I'd say that Rand is clearly the Champion of the Light in this Age, and could have happened this time.

 

If the Champion of the Light isn't really needed to stop the Dark One, and the Dark One cannot stop time with even his help.

How then can the Dark One get what he wants?

My guess is what he wants is to Die, and the Champion of Light is the only one who can kill him.

Perhaps the Dark One realizes this now, and didn't realize he couldn't stop the wheel in the past even with help from the Champion.

[jemron]

I haven't read all of the comments here, but I have to admit, one of my biggest problems with the WoT is that everything we've read in the last 12 books has happened in JUST TWO YEARS!?

 

Seriously?  Seems like it would've been okay to make this all happen over the course of 5-10 years.  2 years just doesn't seem like enough.  There is no way Rand could've learned to channel as quickly AND learned to become a blademaster AND fought a major battle or three with the Aiel AND Seanchan AND the super girls have become full Aes Sedai AND... you get the point.

 

I hope the "Last Battle" lasts longer than one battle.  I hope it is more like a 10+ year war, but I can't see that happening at this point.  Everything indicates that it will be pretty quick; like an event, rather than an ongoing series of events.

[Fains nose]

Rand became a hardcore blademaster+channeler in months because of his Lews Therin Telamon memories. LTT was a blade master and hardcore channeler. Remember Rand isnt Rand al'Thor, he is just a meatsuit with a name that houses the soul of a dragon/champion that is reborn in each age to fight the shadow over and over. Thats why this time is different and he will kill the dark one this time forever and become just a man in future turnings, and thats why this 2-3 year period of this age of this turning is worth writing a 12+ book series about;it is THE last battle against the shadow and the dark one, the LAST.

[Majsju]

/snip/

1. Rand faces and kills the Dark One upon release.

 

One option is an end to all things.

/snip/

 

What is your proof for that statement? I agree if you mean he kills the DO with balefire. However, given that the Choedan Kal have been destroyed that seems to be an incredibly unlikely scenario, even with Callandor. If, however, somewhere in the depths of Lews Therin's memory there exists a possibility for permanently slaying the Dark One and preserving the Wheel of Time then it seems that Rand might not be so naive to inform Moridin that he is going to end the war permanently. Maybe one of those memories are tickling the back of Rand's mind in TGS?

 

If LTT knew about any such possibility, why would he not have tried that back in the AOL, instead of going for the seals which he knew was just a temporary solution?

Only plausible reson I see to have such knowledge, but not act on it, is knowing that acting on it might very well result in destroying the world.

[Jasonm]

I don't see anything wrong with fighting a few major battles in a 2 year period of time. In all reality, I think that is actually pretty spot on. And with anything, practice makes perfect...and during those huge battles, he gets plenty of practice. so being a great channeler seems logical too (and Fains nose comment makes really good sense also).