cadsuane 's impact

[Durinax]

I tihnk cadsuane has a negative impact upon the whole story, she is a typical AS who takes but doesnt give, and not giving tam enough information almost kills him, she pushes rand until he was ready for the forsaken to give him the last nudge, and she is more obsessed with her own legend and creating it than anything else

[Duskfire]

I tihnk cadsuane has a negative impact upon the whole story, she is a typical AS who takes but doesnt give, and not giving tam enough information almost kills him, she pushes rand until he was ready for the forsaken to give him the last nudge, and she is more obsessed with her own legend and creating it than anything else

 

How is she obsessed with her own legend? She did nothing for 20 years, to the point where everyone thought she was dead. She helped capture Logain and Taim, but hardly anyone knows of that. If she is obsessed with creating her own legend shes not doing a very good job of it. And in my post I outlined about three different things that makes her far different to pretty much any other Aes Sedai around (except for maybe Egwene.)

 

What Rand went through would have happened without Cadsuane around. Shes just a really good scapegoat to use. She pushed Rand to do what? Be a better leader? Be courteous to others? I suppose it would be better to have no Cadsuane, so Rand would have died in WH.

 

 

[Charles_Darwin]

It doesn't matter if Moraine was wrong or made mistakes.  She is the first woman on Rand's "women I am going to cry about" list. She is also the one Aes Sedai he says he could Trust (with a capital T). She is also the ONLY Aes Sedai who we have heard quote surrendering Saidar when referring to dealing with Rand.  

I am just re-reading TGS, and Cadsuane & Nynaeve both (separately from each other) realise they 'handled' Rand the wrong way. (cannot mention chapter, but it's in Bandar Eban) There even is -in one of the cases- mention of "how to handle Saidar" so i think both realise the exact same thing that Moraine found out: control by surrendering. Moraine also came to realise this slowly over time, so cannot blame Cadsuane & Nynaeve for being slow.

 

I personally like Cadsuane, and i found the spanking (breaking) of Semirhage brilliant. Also, the way Sorilea respects her and her apology to the Wise Ones show she is a wise woman, who made some mistakes. Besides: never forget how she humiliated a friend in Far Medding for Rand! She makes some sacrifices for Rand, but has her flaws. RJ did a good job on Cadsuane imo, although she can be annoying. (never as annoying as Gawyn!!!!)

 

But nevertheless, looking forward to Moraine's rescue and her fulfilling a viewing from Min (Rand will not survive without Moraine)

[dhill]

RJ did a GREAT job on Cadsuane, although she can be annoying that is what makes her real. She has been built up as a legendary male channeller fighter. When or if she does die it will be taking on many black AM.

[Barid Bel Medar]

You definitly cant fault cadsuane for being a bit slow, all of the women are.

 

(Have you ever tried to convince a woman she is wrong?  :D)

 

 

[FarShainMael]

We are NEVER wrong, how dare you!  ;)  ;)  ;)

 

[TheAngryDruid]

AngryDruid, that was Damar that saved Rand's life in Cairhein.

 

Haven't done a re-read lately, but this is how I remember it.

 

Flinn did the healing that sealed the wound/infection off (back at the Palace, I think). But Samitsu's healing is what allowed him to survive that long. Without it, he'd have been dead before he got to Flinn.

 

[Barid Bel Medar]

Yeah, your right AngryDruid.

 

It went strictly like this.

 

Rand gets stabbed.

\/

Cadsuane is on hand and does as much healing as she can (shes terrible at it, so its not much)

\/

A minute later, Samitsu turns up and does what she can, stablizing Rand for the time being.

\/

Taken to the Palace where Damer does the rest.

 

Now im not sure on this, and dont think it is right, but i seem to recall Samitsu saying that Cadsuane acting almost immediately (him being at her side when he was stabbed) saved his life, so you are correct in that.

 

however, Damer also saved his life, as he would have most likely died in any case, but Cadsuane and co. actually got him there to be fully healed.

[Val Mickey]

There are women like her in real life.

 

I know coz I met one. (shivers)

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

I tihnk cadsuane has a negative impact upon the whole story, she is a typical AS who takes but doesnt give, and not giving tam enough information almost kills him, she pushes rand until he was ready for the forsaken to give him the last nudge, and she is more obsessed with her own legend and creating it than anything else

 

She wants to die being useful, knowing that she will be able to do something big and useful for the world.  Not really a negative impact...

[Lambada]

(Copied from something I posted in another thread - realised it fitted better here)

 

Moiraines value to Rand can best be summed up by this quote from Chapter 22 of tFoH

 

"There were two," Rand told [Amys]. "I... destroyed the other."

Why should he be hesitant just because Moiraine had warned him against Balefire? It was a weapon like any other.

This show perfectly how Moiraine helped restrain the weapon mentality that Rand gets into without her. It shows how her advice is taken to heart. The advice in question was: (tFoH Ch6)

[After Moiraine tells Rand of the consequences of Balefire]

"I can't promise not to use it again Moiraine. You yourself said there are times when it's necessary to do what is forbidden."

"I did not think that you would," she said cooly [...] "But you must be careful."

Compare that with Cadsuane's approach to Balefire (after a similar shadowspawn incident)

(aCoS Ch 36)

Calmly Cadsuane picked her way across to Rand. And slapped his face so hard his head jerked. Min's breath caught in shock. "You will not do that again," Cadsuane said. There was no heat in her voice, just iron. "Do you hear me? Not balefire. Not ever."

That is the value of Moiraine, and is the problem with Cadsuane.

 

[DemandredFO]

Except by that point Rand was getting to the I've got to be hard stage and needed sharp lessons.  It's possible that Rand would've listened to Moraine but she died, he had no one and then AS+Mesaana imprisoned him.  Maybe he needed sharp lessons

[Barid Bel Medar]

Im partially agreeing with DemandredFO here, i think it comes down to, we dont really know. While I still think Moiraine is the better of the two, it is hard to compare them, as Rand was at different stages of insanity/distrust.

 

As demandred said, Moiraine was taken before the AS capture, him starting to go fully insane, and a lot of other things that had happened, not to mention the Semi Domination Band incident, so even though, personally, I agree with many others in saying Moiraine would have done much better, and i think she is one of the most important people to rand, it is really unrealistic and ultimately gets us nowhere comparing the two as advisors.

 

To do so would be like comparing disipline for a 5 year old and a 15 year old, it just cant be done with any real accuracy.

[Durinax]

the best solution to rands insanity:

go back in time and destroy all AS 5 years before the Aiel war. Damn whitecloaks didnt do their jobs

[Duskfire]

the way I see it is that Moiraine was a good advisor for a young inexperienced Rand, and Cadsuane is a good one for a hardened slightly-paranoid Rand. I really think if Moiraine had been there the same situation would have happened. Basically, he was doomed to experience all that, no matter the advisor it was going to happen. Cadsuane did what Moiraine wouldn't have done though; and that was to bring Tam into the picture. Which while at first is backfired, also helped Rand out.

[balefireruinssteaks]

Therein lies the difference in writing styles and stuff - I don't know how much of Cadsuane's character RJ had written out, i'm sure since he wrote the last parts of the book series he had some good Cadsuane stuff in there but I felt like the way she backed off and wimped out when Rand banished her was just really not in her character.  She's been one of the only people that Rand admittedly CAN'T control or order around and I agree that older, stone-hearted Rand NEEDS someone that he can't bully or boss around to frustrate him so he can feel emotions.  When Cadsuane slapped Rand for using Balefire, people around gasped because this was just...not...done, but it was necessary to help Rand realize the importance of being careful or not using it at all.

 

There was also a quote a few pages back that with her angreal, Cadsuane is stronger than Rand.  I think this is false.  I know Elza comments that she thought Cadsuane had an angreal because she was holding more of the Power than she and Merise combined...but Rand without an angreal is stronger than Verin and Alanna linked...and I think that Verin/Alanna is probably around the same strength level as Merise/Elza.

[DemandredFO]

We know what he did before that scene, broke cuendillar and then balefired two women.  Cadsuane saw the broken collar and that Elza and Semirahgue were no longer there, and Rand told her he killed them.  I think she figured she could still be useful and didn't want to see if Rand would really kill her and he probably would have.  He would snapped later but he probably would've killed her.

 

P.S.  I wish some people wold stop combing the book for things they think RJ could've done better.  Can't the few that do that just join the majority that are grateful to Bandon and think he did a wonderful job.

[TheAngryDruid]

P.S.  I wish some people wold stop combing the book for things they think RJ could've done better.  Can't the few that do that just join the majority that are grateful to Bandon and think he did a wonderful job.

 

Amen. And as others have pointed out, the characters in some ways should be changing a bit too. Rand in tGS SHOULD be different. As should Mat (he IS married now). Ditto Egwene. And Nynaeve. Even Perrin is getting there. Eventually, maybe even Tuon and Faile will evolve a bit.

 

Not to say some observations aren't valid, but in the main, we should all be very grateful to Brandon and the job he's done. I'm sure ToM will be very good, and not just the RJ parts.

 

For my money, tGS was the most enjoyable book in a while (at least the last 3-4).

 

 

[Mystica]

I like both Moiraine and Cadsuane, each in their own way. As has been said, Moiraine handled young/caring/hopefull/inexperienced/obstinate Rand. Cadsuane was dealing with hardened/paranoid/suicidal/opportunistic/dictator Rand. Maybe Cadsuane would have done better than Moiraine if she had Rand in the state he was in back then. I believe the Pattern brought him the two women in the stage of his journey when they were most needed.

 

To compare the two is to diminish both and ignore the changes Rand has gone through since Moiraine's fight with Lanfear. It's easy to point the finger at Cadsuane, especially since Moiraine hasn't been around to make any mistakes in the first place. Is Cadsuane fallable? Yes. Being Aes Sedai does not make them less human. She's flawed, Moiraine is flawed, every single human in history is flawed. There is no such thing as a perfect/no-mistake making human.

 

 

 

One thing that I find pecular though is Tuon's ability to withstand Rand's attempt to bend her to his will where Cadsuane was clearly overtaken by his threat. Tuon stood to lose as much (if not more) than Cadsuane and yet she resisted. That part seems a bit unrealistic to me (within the story). Tuon is literally an infant compared to Cadsuane, both in years and experience. The only thing that I can think of to justify it is that killing Cadsuane would have (in Rand's view) no impact on the greater scale of things, while killing Tuon would have triggered a fight in the middle of Falme (Seanchan controlled) which could have a great impact on the outcome of the Last Battle.

 

But I still can't seem to shake the feeling that the whole thing of Tuon succeeding where Cads was cowed being unrealistic. 

[Val Mickey]

 

One thing that I find pecular though is Tuon's ability to withstand Rand's attempt to bend her to his will where Cadsuane was clearly overtaken by his threat. Tuon stood to lose as much (if not more) than Cadsuane and yet she resisted. That part seems a bit unrealistic to me (within the story). ....................But I still can't seem to shake the feeling that the whole thing of Tuon succeeding where Cads was cowed being unrealistic. 

 

Me too, but it wasn't meant to happen, was it? He has to bind the Nine Moons, not the Daughter of the Nine Moons.

 

It reminds me of Loial explaining ta'veren-ism to Rand. Small changes the Pattern would accept. If I wanted to be a king, though.

 

P.S Someone should get this thread back on topic. Or else the Pattern would unravel. :)

[Duskfire]

Sanderson pointed out in an interview that at that point of time, Tuon considered herself to be the most important person on the face of the planet. To her, she had been raised to believe the Dragon Reborn will bow down to the Seanchan. I think it makes perfect sense that she turned down Rand; the fact that she came so incredibly close to leaning toward him shows how strong his ta`veren is, and how strong her willpower is.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Also, Rand only wanted an alliance with Tuon and she has a whole army behind her, her deathwatch guard etc.. To her she would seem pretty infallable. (Who would dare strike the Daughter of the Nine Moons?)

 

Cadsuane on the other hand, made a mistake (supposedly) which nearly saw Rand a slave to the shadow, he had just nearly killed Min and had been freed from one of the most horrifying women (Semirhage) to ever walk the earth. Then, Rand was threatening to actaully kill her, she had no army behind her, and the AS she had were either not there, or woudlnt be willing to die for her. (Tuon has her Damane and the rest who would do such a thing) She is relatively unimportant (in terms of politics) so as to be disposable.

 

I think there is a big difference between the two situations. You cant say either one was acting unrealistically

[Duskfire]

Also, Rand only wanted an alliance with Tuon and she has a whole army behind her, her deathwatch guard etc.. To her she would seem pretty infallable. (Who would dare strike the Daughter of the Nine Moons?)

 

Cadsuane on the other hand, made a mistake (supposedly) which nearly saw Rand a slave to the shadow, he had just nearly killed Min and had been freed from one of the most horrifying women (Semirhage) to ever walk the earth. Then, Rand was threatening to actaully kill her, she had no army behind her, and the AS she had were either not there, or woudlnt be willing to die for her. (Tuon has her Damane and the rest who would do such a thing) She is relatively unimportant (in terms of politics) so as to be disposable.

 

I think there is a big difference between the two situations. You cant say either one was acting unrealistically

 

In the end though, I really dont think Rand would ever have killed her. Maybe if she continued to really push him hard, but theres a difference between what he did with Graendal and murdering an ally in cold blood, which is what he would essentially have been doing. Not to mention, imagine the fallout if Cadsuane was killed. She is respected by just about everybody, particularly the Wise Ones. Actually now that I think about it, it would have been interesting to see the fallout.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Also, Rand only wanted an alliance with Tuon and she has a whole army behind her, her deathwatch guard etc.. To her she would seem pretty infallable. (Who would dare strike the Daughter of the Nine Moons?)

 

Cadsuane on the other hand, made a mistake (supposedly) which nearly saw Rand a slave to the shadow, he had just nearly killed Min and had been freed from one of the most horrifying women (Semirhage) to ever walk the earth. Then, Rand was threatening to actaully kill her, she had no army behind her, and the AS she had were either not there, or woudlnt be willing to die for her. (Tuon has her Damane and the rest who would do such a thing) She is relatively unimportant (in terms of politics) so as to be disposable.

 

I think there is a big difference between the two situations. You cant say either one was acting unrealistically

 

In the end though, I really dont think Rand would ever have killed her. Maybe if she continued to really push him hard, but theres a difference between what he did with Graendal and murdering an ally in cold blood, which is what he would essentially have been doing. Not to mention, imagine the fallout if Cadsuane was killed. She is respected by just about everybody, particularly the Wise Ones. Actually now that I think about it, it would have been interesting to see the fallout.

 

I agree, that there would be a fallout and it would go down the drain, but the fact is, who would take the chance? If someone put a gun to your head and said get out of my sight or ill pull the trigger, but you had all of this to fall back upon, and think to yourself that he wouldnt really. Would you actually risk it? I dont think so, not unless you were insane or very, very stupid.

 

SO i think thats the difference, Tuon didnt have the gun to her head, Rand just had a gun lying around, but Cadsuane actually had it cocked and ready to blast her to pieces

 

[TheAngryDruid]

The next Rand/For(Tuon)a confrontation will be great. I don't think she'll be able to resist this time. She IS the Nine Moon's now. Maybe she'll even be bound literally (oath rod, anyone?).

 

Plus, I think Egwene (or someone high up the Aes Sedai ranks) may want a word as well. Maybe Sharina (when she gets the shawl, Cadsuane, or Mo once she's back. Alivia having a word would also be fantastic.

 

Regardless, the AS are going to want their people back. Maybe Rand/Egwene will let them have any Blacks or DF's they collar? That would be poetic justice.