A clue to Taim

[Lacanos]

Be'lal/Taim has indeed been shot down. Aside from making no sense, we have a quote: "Jordan: No, no, no. Because of the Bore and the fact that the Bore is best perceived, the Bore doesn't really exist in Shayol Ghul, the Bore exists everywhere, its simply in Shayol Ghul where it can be perceived most easily. By the same token he has greater access to people at Shayol Ghul than he does elsewhere, or did, and uh, that's, when you know, Rahvin died, Rahvin is balefired out of time, slain out of time, cannot be reached, gone. Be'lal, (names someone else)..."

Not saying I agree with the theory, cos I don't, but the proponents of it argue that RJ never denied it, and that he specifically made the loophole of being able to save people only balefired a few seconds back to reintroduce Be'lal.

From a mechanics-of-the-world PoV, it could work. My own disagreement with the theory is it's just a bit silly really from a literary PoV

[OptimusPrime]

Not saying I agree with the theory, cos I don't, but the proponents of it argue that RJ never denied it, and that he specifically made the loophole of being able to save people only balefired a few seconds back to reintroduce Be'lal.

From a mechanics-of-the-world PoV, it could work. My own disagreement with the theory is it's just a bit silly really from a literary PoV

 

Im not sure about that myself. I think Bel'als death was an example of a time where the balefire was weak enough for the Dark One to have a chance, but the Dark One wasnt fast enough.

 

Also, about the reincarnation-being-affected-by-distance-from-Shayol Ghul, I disagree with that. I imagine that the Forsakens release occurred because the Bore was "big enough" and the level of weakness required for them to get out was also enough for the Dark Ones reincarnation ability, but that he can catch any of the Chosen any non-abnormal place (like, not Rhuidean maybe) but he can only put them in a body again if the body is taken to Shayol Ghul.

 

I think Mr Ares doesnt disagree that Taim might be Moridin.

[DemandredFO]

I know it was never in the series but why would RJ say about the balefire loophole at all if he never intended to use it.  I'll be dissapointed if Taim isn't Be'lal but it won't be something to end the world.

[Sharaman]

I know it was never in the series but why would RJ say about the balefire loophole at all if he never intended to use it.  I'll be dissapointed if Taim isn't Be'lal but it won't be something to end the world.

 

Taim hands over a seal, which the shadow then goes nuts attacking Bashere's tent to get back.

I don't think Be'lal would hand over a seal.

 

[Lacanos]

I know it was never in the series but why would RJ say about the balefire loophole at all if he never intended to use it.  I'll be dissapointed if Taim isn't Be'lal but it won't be something to end the world.

 

Taim hands over a seal, which the shadow then goes nuts attacking Bashere's tent to get back.

I don't think Be'lal would hand over a seal.

 

Not a good counter-argument. Taim's a darkfriend regardless, it's inevitable he gave the seal to foster trust.

 

The best counter-argument is still that from a literary PoV reviving Be'lal is stupid. Balefire is written as the weapon against forsaken, no point confusing people about that with degrees etc.

[OptimusPrime]

I know it was never in the series but why would RJ say about the balefire loophole at all if he never intended to use it.  

 

Because if he said balefire makes it impossible he would have been lying. Possibly the reason he did tell us is because its not in the books; in an interview he told us that men slow later than women and his reason was because the books werent going to mention it.

 

The best counter-argument is still that from a literary PoV reviving Be'lal is stupid. Balefire is written as the weapon against forsaken, no point confusing people about that with degrees etc.

 

Not at all. Thats just how you interpret it because you are stuck in Rands PoV with it. Balefire is written as a weapon that could unravel the Pattern; Rand deems its thread burning effect as an ultimate kill worthy of a Forsaken; they arent any less dead, it just feels more satisfying that he can undo their "devilish" actions.

[Sharaman]

I know it was never in the series but why would RJ say about the balefire loophole at all if he never intended to use it.  I'll be dissapointed if Taim isn't Be'lal but it won't be something to end the world.

 

Taim hands over a seal, which the shadow then goes nuts attacking Bashere's tent to get back.

I don't think Be'lal would hand over a seal.

 

Not a good counter-argument. Taim's a darkfriend regardless, it's inevitable he gave the seal to foster trust.

 

The best counter-argument is still that from a literary PoV reviving Be'lal is stupid. Balefire is written as the weapon against forsaken, no point confusing people about that with degrees etc.

 

Taim may be, almost certainly is, a Darkfriend - but he's not an AoL Chosen.

No AoL Chosen would want to hand over a seal - we've seen the lengths to which they went to try and get hold of the one with Domon and then "Taim's seal" with Bashere.

Taim could have found other ways to foster trust.

 

 

[Lacanos]

I know it was never in the series but why would RJ say about the balefire loophole at all if he never intended to use it.  I'll be dissapointed if Taim isn't Be'lal but it won't be something to end the world.

 

Taim hands over a seal, which the shadow then goes nuts attacking Bashere's tent to get back.

I don't think Be'lal would hand over a seal.

 

Not a good counter-argument. Taim's a darkfriend regardless, it's inevitable he gave the seal to foster trust.

 

The best counter-argument is still that from a literary PoV reviving Be'lal is stupid. Balefire is written as the weapon against forsaken, no point confusing people about that with degrees etc.

 

Taim may be, almost certainly is, a Darkfriend - but he's not an AoL Chosen.

No AoL Chosen would want to hand over a seal - we've seen the lengths to which they went to try and get hold of the one with Domon and then "Taim's seal" with Bashere.

Taim could have found other ways to foster trust.

 

 

Taim is a darkfriend. And it's pretty reasonable to assume he's had a lot of contact with the "Chosen" in the past. He had permission to hand it over.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Like Sharaman said, there are other ways to garner trust. Any seal in the possession of a forsaken (reborn or not) would almost immediately be broken. It is their goal to set the DO free after all. They think they're going to rule the world in immortality once he is free. They aren't going to hand it over to the one person who has a chance at permanently re-sealing him.

[Durinax]

I know it was never in the series but why would RJ say about the balefire loophole at all if he never intended to use it.  I'll be dissapointed if Taim isn't Be'lal but it won't be something to end the world.

 

Taim hands over a seal, which the shadow then goes nuts attacking Bashere's tent to get back.

I don't think Be'lal would hand over a seal.

 

Not a good counter-argument. Taim's a darkfriend regardless, it's inevitable he gave the seal to foster trust.

 

The best counter-argument is still that from a literary PoV reviving Be'lal is stupid. Balefire is written as the weapon against forsaken, no point confusing people about that with degrees etc.

 

Taim may be, almost certainly is, a Darkfriend - but he's not an AoL Chosen.

No AoL Chosen would want to hand over a seal - we've seen the lengths to which they went to try and get hold of the one with Domon and then "Taim's seal" with Bashere.

Taim could have found other ways to foster trust.

 

 

Taim is a darkfriend. And it's pretty reasonable to assume he's had a lot of contact with the "Chosen" in the past. He had permission to hand it over.

he was turned after he handed over the seal, and they chose to do it this way to make it easier for taim to act natural and gain rands trust, then once he was turned he became more arrogent and jealous of rand

[OptimusPrime]

Like Sharaman said, there are other ways to garner trust. Any seal in the possession of a forsaken (reborn or not) would almost immediately be broken. It is their goal to set the DO free after all. They think they're going to rule the world in immortality once he is free. They aren't going to hand it over to the one person who has a chance at permanently re-sealing him.

 

I think the Shadows intentions with the Seals changed, around the time when Herid Fel died.

 

Notice that the attempt to steal the Seals from Bashere wasnt until after Herid Fel died. I think he found out some things too close to the Shadows interest-how they found out I dont know, but he was about to figure out something important about the Dark Ones prison. I think the Shadow wanted the Seals because the prison is flawed and the only way to rebuild is to break all the Seals and if any survived until Rands big moment, and the Shadow could keep Rand from breaking at least one, then his attempt to remake the prison might not work right, because of the seal(s) that he couldnt break.

 

I think at first, it was "what the hell, theyre breaking anyway, he might as well have one to give him something to worry about." (nice move Moridin  ;D ) Then, Herid Fel says "have to clear the rubble before you can rebuild." The Shadow think "Damn! He isnt with us, yet he plans to break the Seals, and if he wants to do that, he's got a plan. And its not likely to be our plan."

 

P.S.

 

I reckon Bashere might be involved in Taims unmasking as Moridin. "If he turns against you, or dies... ... the one person that has a chance of spotting Taims altered appearance wont or cant tell you."

[Lironah]

I reckon Bashere might be involved in Taims unmasking as Moridin. "If he turns against you, or dies... ... the one person that has a chance of spotting Taims altered appearance wont or cant tell you."

 

It's more likely to be Cadsuane, who helped capture him.  Bashere's already convinced himself that, despite possible discrepancies, the Taim who walked into Caemlyn is the Taim he fought in Saldaea.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Like Sharaman said, there are other ways to garner trust. Any seal in the possession of a forsaken (reborn or not) would almost immediately be broken. It is their goal to set the DO free after all. They think they're going to rule the world in immortality once he is free. They aren't going to hand it over to the one person who has a chance at permanently re-sealing him.

 

I think the Shadows intentions with the Seals changed, around the time when Herid Fel died.

 

Notice that the attempt to steal the Seals from Bashere wasnt until after Herid Fel died. I think he found out some things too close to the Shadows interest-how they found out I dont know, but he was about to figure out something important about the Dark Ones prison. I think the Shadow wanted the Seals because the prison is flawed and the only way to rebuild is to break all the Seals and if any survived until Rands big moment, and the Shadow could keep Rand from breaking at least one, then his attempt to remake the prison might not work right, because of the seal(s) that he couldnt break.

 

I think at first, it was "what the hell, theyre breaking anyway, he might as well have one to give him something to worry about." (nice move Moridin  ;D ) Then, Herid Fel says "have to clear the rubble before you can rebuild." The Shadow think "Damn! He isnt with us, yet he plans to break the Seals, and if he wants to do that, he's got a plan. And its not likely to be our plan."

 

P.S.

 

I reckon Bashere might be involved in Taims unmasking as Moridin. "If he turns against you, or dies... ... the one person that has a chance of spotting Taims altered appearance wont or cant tell you."

 

Yeah but how much time passed from when Fel was killed to when Taim shows up and gives Rand the Seal? stupid moment. Why have just been holing on to it that whole time? The Shadow didn't know Rand was going to proclaim amnesty for men who could channel. Which is the whole reason Taim showed up in the first place. Without the amnesty who knows what he would be doing now.

[The Desert Pea]

Like Sharaman said, there are other ways to garner trust. Any seal in the possession of a forsaken (reborn or not) would almost immediately be broken. It is their goal to set the DO free after all. They think they're going to rule the world in immortality once he is free. They aren't going to hand it over to the one person who has a chance at permanently re-sealing him.

 

I think the Shadows intentions with the Seals changed, around the time when Herid Fel died.

 

Notice that the attempt to steal the Seals from Bashere wasnt until after Herid Fel died. I think he found out some things too close to the Shadows interest-how they found out I dont know, but he was about to figure out something important about the Dark Ones prison. I think the Shadow wanted the Seals because the prison is flawed and the only way to rebuild is to break all the Seals and if any survived until Rands big moment, and the Shadow could keep Rand from breaking at least one, then his attempt to remake the prison might not work right, because of the seal(s) that he couldnt break.

 

I think at first, it was "what the hell, theyre breaking anyway, he might as well have one to give him something to worry about." (nice move Moridin  ;D ) Then, Herid Fel says "have to clear the rubble before you can rebuild." The Shadow think "Damn! He isnt with us, yet he plans to break the Seals, and if he wants to do that, he's got a plan. And its not likely to be our plan."

 

P.S.

 

I reckon Bashere might be involved in Taims unmasking as Moridin. "If he turns against you, or dies... ... the one person that has a chance of spotting Taims altered appearance wont or cant tell you."

 

Yeah but how much time passed from when Fel was killed to when Taim shows up and gives Rand the Seal?

 

I'm not trying to support the Moridin=Taim theory here, I'm in the Taim is Taim is Taim is no one else but Taim camp myself. But Taim shows up and gives the Seal to Rand at the beginning of LoC, and Fel dies at the end of LoC.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Like Sharaman said, there are other ways to garner trust. Any seal in the possession of a forsaken (reborn or not) would almost immediately be broken. It is their goal to set the DO free after all. They think they're going to rule the world in immortality once he is free. They aren't going to hand it over to the one person who has a chance at permanently re-sealing him.

 

I think the Shadows intentions with the Seals changed, around the time when Herid Fel died.

 

Notice that the attempt to steal the Seals from Bashere wasnt until after Herid Fel died. I think he found out some things too close to the Shadows interest-how they found out I dont know, but he was about to figure out something important about the Dark Ones prison. I think the Shadow wanted the Seals because the prison is flawed and the only way to rebuild is to break all the Seals and if any survived until Rands big moment, and the Shadow could keep Rand from breaking at least one, then his attempt to remake the prison might not work right, because of the seal(s) that he couldnt break.

 

I think at first, it was "what the hell, theyre breaking anyway, he might as well have one to give him something to worry about." (nice move Moridin  ;D ) Then, Herid Fel says "have to clear the rubble before you can rebuild." The Shadow think "Damn! He isnt with us, yet he plans to break the Seals, and if he wants to do that, he's got a plan. And its not likely to be our plan."

 

P.S.

 

I reckon Bashere might be involved in Taims unmasking as Moridin. "If he turns against you, or dies... ... the one person that has a chance of spotting Taims altered appearance wont or cant tell you."

 

Yeah but how much time passed from when Fel was killed to when Taim shows up and gives Rand the Seal?

 

I'm not trying to support the Moridin=Taim theory here, I'm in the Taim is Taim is Taim is no one else but Taim camp myself. But Taim shows up and gives the Seal to Rand at the beginning of LoC, and Fel dies at the end of LoC.

 

Oh, yeah, duh. Thanks, I knew that lol. Well there you go then. That just helps prove my point. As far as the Shadow knew, if the Seals were broken the DO get's free. Cut and dry. No reason for anyone sworn to the DO to just hold on to it and plenty more for them to just break it immediately after coming into possession of it.

Unless you think Taim was actually trying to help Rand by giving him the Seal.

[CUBAREY]

No reason for anyone sworn to the DO to just hold on to it and plenty more for them to just break it immediately after coming into possession of it.

Unless you think Taim was actually trying to help Rand by giving him the Seal.

 

Unless the DO or Ishy gave orders that the seals were not to be broken piecemeal. Both the DO and Ishy are intersted in total victory not a marginal victory. Further, the Chosen (especially Ishy) know that breaking some of the seals but not all would increase the DO's influence in the World but not totally free him from his prison. The DO and Ishy are playing for a total victory not one in which the forces of Darkness win but the DO is not freed.

[Ashaman Kovan]

No reason for anyone sworn to the DO to just hold on to it and plenty more for them to just break it immediately after coming into possession of it.

Unless you think Taim was actually trying to help Rand by giving him the Seal.

 

Unless the DO or Ishy gave orders that the seals were not to be broken piecemeal. Both the DO and Ishy are intersted in total victory not a marginal victory. Further, the Chosen (especially Ishy) know that breaking some of the seals but not all would increase the DO's influence in the World but not totally free him from his prison. The DO and Ishy are playing for a total victory not one in which the forces of Darkness win but the DO is not freed.

 

How would breaking the Seals and completely releasing the DO be considered a 'marginal victory'?  ???

[The Desert Pea]

Because breaking the Seals doesn't completely free the Dark One, only reopens the Bore so it can continue to grow. If this were to happen the rest of the world would notice and react before the Shadow's forces are completely gathered. Also, it seems that for the Shadow it'll be ideal if Rand is in their control, fighting for them instead of the Light. The time just wasn't right to break all the Seals. Although I'm still not sure why the Shadow wanted Rand to have the Seal. Has the Tracer theory been disproved yet?

[Ashaman Kovan]

Well he would be as free as he was before the sealing. When he was winning. Against much more superior forces than exist in Randland today.

[The Desert Pea]

In a military sense, yes. But we know that the most important part of the Last Battle isn't going to be the war. There's more to it than that. The DO and Ishy/Moridin are no fools, if they needed the Seals broken earlier they would have been a long time ago.

[Ashaman Kovan]

In a military sense, yes. But we know that the most important part of the Last Battle isn't going to be the war. There's more to it than that. The DO and Ishy/Moridin are no fools, if they needed the Seals broken earlier they would have been a long time ago.

 

Maybe not the most important part, no. But definitely a deciding factor. Not to mention that, had they broken them sooner Rand would have had no time to prepare for whatever it is he has to do.

IMO Ishy/Moridin and the DO are huge fools. Powerful and arrogant, but fools nonetheless. lol. I just think they couldn't find the Seals. For if they could have they'd have broken them. IMO.

I just can't fit Taim in there. Either he's a darkfriend and no other shadowsworn knew he had the seal, or he's a darkfriend and he was instructed to give it to Rand. Extremely stupid move in my book if that's the case. Or of course, Taim is unaligned. Except to himself. Or he is somehow, inexplicably, still a good guy.

[The Desert Pea]

In a military sense, yes. But we know that the most important part of the Last Battle isn't going to be the war. There's more to it than that. The DO and Ishy/Moridin are no fools, if they needed the Seals broken earlier they would have been a long time ago.

 

Maybe not the most important part, no. But definitely a deciding factor. Not to mention that, had they broken them sooner Rand would have had no time to prepare for whatever it is he has to do.

IMO Ishy/Moridin and the DO are huge fools. Powerful and arrogant, but fools nonetheless. lol. I just think they couldn't find the Seals. For if they could have they'd have broken them. IMO.

I just can't fit Taim in there. Either he's a darkfriend and no other shadowsworn knew he had the seal, or he's a darkfriend and he was instructed to give it to Rand. Extremely stupid move in my book if that's the case. Or of course, Taim is unaligned. Except to himself. Or he is somehow, inexplicably, still a good guy.

 

True, definitely a deciding factor. I wasn't trying to deny its importance, I mean it's called the Last Battle for a reason haha. And on second thought, it may be too early for us to call whether Ishy and the DO are fools or not, because at the moment we have no idea what their plan is. The wanted end result is known, but the means aren't. No sound judgement can be passed down until then.

 

Taim really does just complicate matters wherever he pops up. If he's a Darkfriend, why would he give Rand a Seal to the DO's prison? No matter how you look at that move it seems impractical for the Shadow. I mean there are plenty of other ways to gain trust. If he's working for the Light somehow, then how do you explain the death orders on Rand and the decor of the Black Tower? Or if he's unaligned, how does he know so much about the Forsaken and the phrase "Let the Lord of Chaos rule"? All signs so far point to him being a Darkfriend, quite possibly a newly raised Third Age Forsaken. I think we'll be learning a lot about Mr. Taim in the last two books.

[Random Man]

In a military sense, yes. But we know that the most important part of the Last Battle isn't going to be the war. There's more to it than that. The DO and Ishy/Moridin are no fools, if they needed the Seals broken earlier they would have been a long time ago.

 

Maybe not the most important part, no. But definitely a deciding factor. Not to mention that, had they broken them sooner Rand would have had no time to prepare for whatever it is he has to do.

IMO Ishy/Moridin and the DO are huge fools. Powerful and arrogant, but fools nonetheless. lol. I just think they couldn't find the Seals. For if they could have they'd have broken them. IMO.

I just can't fit Taim in there. Either he's a darkfriend and no other shadowsworn knew he had the seal, or he's a darkfriend and he was instructed to give it to Rand. Extremely stupid move in my book if that's the case. Or of course, Taim is unaligned. Except to himself. Or he is somehow, inexplicably, still a good guy.

 

True, definitely a deciding factor. I wasn't trying to deny its importance, I mean it's called the Last Battle for a reason haha. And on second thought, it may be too early for us to call whether Ishy and the DO are fools or not, because at the moment we have no idea what their plan is. The wanted end result is known, but the means aren't. No sound judgement can be passed down until then.

 

Taim really does just complicate matters wherever he pops up. If he's a Darkfriend, why would he give Rand a Seal to the DO's prison? No matter how you look at that move it seems impractical for the Shadow. I mean there are plenty of other ways to gain trust. If he's working for the Light somehow, then how do you explain the death orders on Rand and the decor of the Black Tower? Or if he's unaligned, how does he know so much about the Forsaken and the phrase "Let the Lord of Chaos rule"? All signs so far point to him being a Darkfriend, quite possibly a newly raised Third Age Forsaken. I think we'll be learning a lot about Mr. Taim in the last two books.

I'm sure we will learn more about him. And it's a pretty safe bet that Taim's aligned with the Shadow. I could possibly discount his orders to kill Rand as jealousy or self-delusion brought about by the taint (making him think he's actually the Dragon Reborn or some such thing, since, if he wasn't a Darkfriend, he would have been susceptible to the taint) but not when taken in concert with all of the other signs we have seen as pointed out above.

[makaveli422]

Just had a thought on Taim. I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before but what if Taim was turned to the shadow by the 13x13 trick? It was mentioned in TDR more than once and after that not much else has been said about it. So I think we find out about someone who was turned this way in TOM. Why not Taim?  

[The Desert Pea]

In a military sense, yes. But we know that the most important part of the Last Battle isn't going to be the war. There's more to it than that. The DO and Ishy/Moridin are no fools, if they needed the Seals broken earlier they would have been a long time ago.

 

Maybe not the most important part, no. But definitely a deciding factor. Not to mention that, had they broken them sooner Rand would have had no time to prepare for whatever it is he has to do.

IMO Ishy/Moridin and the DO are huge fools. Powerful and arrogant, but fools nonetheless. lol. I just think they couldn't find the Seals. For if they could have they'd have broken them. IMO.

I just can't fit Taim in there. Either he's a darkfriend and no other shadowsworn knew he had the seal, or he's a darkfriend and he was instructed to give it to Rand. Extremely stupid move in my book if that's the case. Or of course, Taim is unaligned. Except to himself. Or he is somehow, inexplicably, still a good guy.

 

True, definitely a deciding factor. I wasn't trying to deny its importance, I mean it's called the Last Battle for a reason haha. And on second thought, it may be too early for us to call whether Ishy and the DO are fools or not, because at the moment we have no idea what their plan is. The wanted end result is known, but the means aren't. No sound judgement can be passed down until then.

 

Taim really does just complicate matters wherever he pops up. If he's a Darkfriend, why would he give Rand a Seal to the DO's prison? No matter how you look at that move it seems impractical for the Shadow. I mean there are plenty of other ways to gain trust. If he's working for the Light somehow, then how do you explain the death orders on Rand and the decor of the Black Tower? Or if he's unaligned, how does he know so much about the Forsaken and the phrase "Let the Lord of Chaos rule"? All signs so far point to him being a Darkfriend, quite possibly a newly raised Third Age Forsaken. I think we'll be learning a lot about Mr. Taim in the last two books.

I'm sure we will learn more about him. And it's a pretty safe bet that Taim's aligned with the Shadow. I could possibly discount his orders to kill Rand as jealousy or self-delusion brought about by the taint (making him think he's actually the Dragon Reborn or some such thing, since, if he wasn't a Darkfriend, he would have been susceptible to the taint) but not when taken in concert with all of the other signs we have seen as pointed out above.

 

My thoughts exactly, I just ended up going on a late night ramble there and tried to lay out all the possibilities. Taim is one of my favorite characters so I really hope we learn more about him before the series ends.