A clue to Taim

[OptimusPrime]

Sorry for the doublepost but I remembered something else.

 

After Rand identified Moridin as the man from Shadar Logoth (that was Taims original appearance, not Moridins disguise) every single time he saw the face his thoughts referenced the man from Shadar Logoth. Yet, IIRC, when Rand channels the True Power in TGS it said he saw "a blurry face" again but without the SL reference. At first when I read it I thought it might have been Shaidar, but now I wonder if the missing SL reference meant he saw a blurry version of Moridins altered face, and that if Rand saw that one clearly, he would recognise it as Taim, Moridins disguise.

[azrael.1289]

DEMANDRED: Have I not done well, Great Lord?

SHAI'TAN: YOU'VE DONE SO WELL THAT I CAN'T TELL YOU FOR LAUGHING. AND I WON'T TELL HOW WELL YOU'VE DONE ANYWAY BECAUSE YOU HELPED SOMEONE ELSE STAY NAE'BLIS THINK WHAT YOU WANT, FOOL!

Fixed  :P

Anyways, on the subject of Taim, I just don't buy Taim is Taim theory. The guy we have seen didn't act like a mere male channeler who was thought a bit of AoL stuff by the forsaken. His confidence, arrogance, mannerisms, stuff he says all point to something more. Taim is an enigma whose story will play a very big part in the future IMO.

[OptimusPrime]

DEMANDRED: Have I not done well, Great Lord?

SHAI'TAN: YOU'VE DONE SO WELL THAT I CAN'T TELL YOU FOR LAUGHING. AND I WON'T TELL HOW WELL YOU'VE DONE ANYWAY BECAUSE YOU HELPED SOMEONE ELSE STAY NAE'BLIS THINK WHAT YOU WANT, FOOL!

Fixed  :P

Anyways, on the subject of Taim, I just don't buy Taim is Taim theory. The guy we have seen didn't act like a mere male channeler who was thought a bit of AoL stuff by the forsaken. Taim is an enigma whose story will play a very big part in the future IMO.

 

Hahaha, I honestly cant believe I forgot about Caps Lock.

 

Im waiting for Mr Ares to say something about this.

 

I openly declare that Ishamaels death and his return in Taims body is the Big Unnoticed Thing.

[JakeBarnes]

Sorry, I must have just made that up because of all the 'taim is taim' quotes that pop up because of the 'Taim is not Demandred' stuff.  

 

So, according to your theory:  Demandred freed Taim and took him to SG.  The Dark One put Ishamael's soul in Taim's body.  Taim's body is Moridin.  Ishidin weaves a TP disguise whenever he needs to pose as 'Taim'.

 

I have no rebuttal.  There are many suggestive pieces of information that point to this possibiity.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Agreed. Or put another way--get along!

 

If you do not I will grow very cranky. /ModCommand.

 

So..Wait..Does that mean I don't get to spend time thinking up clever replies to all of beer belly's poorly executed insults? No!  :'(

 

Last one ;D

 

What's your position on people who unabashedly call RJ a liar? Just out of curiosity.

[OptimusPrime]

Sorry, I must have just made that up because of all the 'taim is taim' quotes that pop up because of the 'Taim is not Demandred' stuff.  

 

So, according to your theory:  Demandred freed Taim and took him to SG.  The Dark One put Ishamael's soul in Taim's body.  Taim's body is Moridin.  Ishidin weaves a TP disguise whenever he needs to pose as 'Taim'.

 

I have no rebuttal.  There are many suggestive pieces of information that point to this possibiity.

 

The good thing about the theory is that it should convince people that the clues for Taimandred were not changed in any way. Even if the theory isnt accurate the bits and pieces we have on Taim fit more possibilities than Taimandred and did from the very, very start of it.

 

EDIT: I made a small error regarding Moridin killing Maeric. He did know he embraced the True Power, but his thoughts wandered while doing so and when he became alert he had killed Maeric. He knew he held the True Power but he didnt know he was doing anything that would kill Maeric. I couldnt let that one slide  8)

[Vambram]

1.1.5 How do we know Demandred is not Taim?

by Leigh Butler

 

http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/1_dark/1.1_forsaken1/1.1.5_taimandred.html

 

1.5.6: Is Taim a Darkfriend?

 

 

http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/1_dark/1.5_blackornot/1.5.6_taim.html

 

 

[mossman87]

There's no proof whatsoever to show RJ lied about Taim and Demandred, so the only reason anyone would hold that opinion is if they were either trolling or held a rather negative opinion of RJ. *shrug*  To each their own.

[Random Man]

There's no proof whatsoever to show RJ lied about Taim and Demandred, so the only reason anyone would hold that opinion is if they were either trolling or held a rather negative opinion of RJ. *shrug*  To each their own.

 

Either that or they don't care to apply any logic at all to RJ's statements. He said himself that he loved making us squirm. Additionally, he had no problem at all with throwing a RAFO even at a situation that initially looked straightforward. Look at Verin's lie to Ingtar in TGH, for instance, one of the first RAFOs IIRC. Maybe, if he wanted us to squirm even more, he might apply a little misdirection, such as all the Verinisms being "potentially" explained away by Aes Sedai mystery.  So why bother going on record to say early on that Taim had never posed as Demandred, instead of RAFO'ing it and suggesting reasonable doubt against it?

 

The only logical reason for RJ to say that Taim is not Demandred is if both Taim wasn't Demandred AND he didn't want us to think Taim was Demandred. The statement was a gift from the Creator -- quite possibly, one intended to make us think about Taim on another level and make us start postulating and squirming again. Moritaim, anyone?

 

Additionally, RJ's always been very careful to avoid contradiction. He said once that, while occasionally errors popped up that weren't properly edited out (See KoD with Beonin's confusion of Skimming/Traveling and Mat's confusion over which were the Aelfinn or Eelfinn) he would also get a lot of people reporting plot "inconsistencies" that didn't really exist because he could always point out where the reader had gotten it wrong. We're not talking about Stephenie Meyer here. He also didn't change things based on what the fan world was talking about. If he had originally intended for Taim to be Demandred, he would have planned it that way from the beginning, stuck to it, and probably made it more muddled to keep us wondering. He wouldn't have jumped ship on something this significant just because we figured it out.

 

[Lacanos]

I don't buy Moridin=Taim, and I'll explain why when I get back from work.

However, what evidence is there against Taim=Sammael, out of curiousity?

[Sharaman]

Taim is the M'hael. Sammael is toast.

 

[Lacanos]

Taim is the M'hael. Sammael is toast.

 

We never see Sammael die, we just presume he does.

[papertiger]

Lacanos, the Taim as Demandred's proxy is definitely bolstered by the situation with the Gray Man. I think Taim was interested in learning who sent the assassin because not only did it violate the DO's mandate not to kill Rand, but also because such an assassination would throw suspicion onto Taim's master, Demandred. This is exactly the kind of infighting that the Forsaken are known for and skilled at; if the Gray Man had been successful, Demandred would have been forced to explain to the DO why Rand had died in his territory. At the very least, it would inconvenience him. At the worst, the DO would have punished Demandred. Which is exactly why Sammael or Graendal would have sent him, since neither are Demandred's allies.

 

Which brings me to my next point. I'm sure it's been discussed, but the other reason that Taim is Demandred's proxy is because it fits in so nicely as a counterpart to Mesaana with the White Tower. In the prologue to TGS, Moridin interrogates Mesaana about the state of the White Tower. Mesaana desperately claims she can deliver him an entire brood of channelers who will fight for the Shadow, despite the fact that she hasn't actually taken power yet. Moridin then turns to Demandred and asks the same of him. He replies that his rule is secure and that his forces gather for war. Unlike Mesaana, Demandred--through Taim--has been in complete control of the Black Tower for some time. He's picked his Hundred Companions and has begun to implement his strategy for the Last Battle.

 

So we have an interrogation of the two remaining members of an alliance that in theory would have represented the Shadow's influence over each of three major channeling forces in Randland: damane, Aes Sedai, and Asha'man.

 

And yes, Sammael is toast. Unless...he, like Liah, was corrupted but somehow survived with Mashadar then fled through the Ways during the Cleansing and now lives there, occasionally stepping out to gather Trollocs to attack Rand!!!

[OptimusPrime]

http://theoryland.yuku.com/reply/88494/t/Fantasy-Fair-Questions.html#reply-88494

 

Sammael is dead. He is dead. He is dead. He may be reborn again, but then he will not remember he was Sammael. He cannot be reincarnated. He is dead.

 

We have seen the last of Sammael.

 

The grey man doesnt point specifically to Demandred. If Taim was Moridin, he'd be curious as to who was disobeying orders. We know Sammael sent the gholam (I will send...someone) and later on at Shadar Logoth, when Moridin clearly knows Rand is hunting Sammael, he helps Rand out of the hole. So he can kill Sammael.

[Mr Ares]

On Taimandred, I can understand why people might initially have thought that - it's not without evidence. However, that evidence was never overwhelming. For example, neither of them smiles. Two people having that mannerism isn't impossible, but the both of them having it might lead people to think they are the same person. Of course, all the evidence for Taimandred is like this, it doesn't link specifically to Demandred, or even to the Chosen or even the Shadow, necessarily. I have asked before for people to provide the overwhelming evidence they seem to think exists that mean two people having the same mannerism couldn't arise for reasons other than them being the same person and RJ couldn't possibly have done it by accident, and they cannot provide it, because it doesn't exist. The links between the two are not so strong they couldn't arise by accident, especially as RJ was looking at things in a different way to his readers. If RJ has two characters who don't smile, he knows they are two. If he wants to use similarities as a red herring, he can, but if he doesn't intend to an unintentional red herring might still occur. He's not looking at this thinking "how can I make people think the two are the same when they're not", he's just thinking "these two are different." Then someone points out they are rather similar, and RJ's view of the characters, backed by information not available to us, comes face to face with the views of his fans, who only have what's in the books and interviews. So RJ has someone jealous of Rand (well, no less than three of the Chosen (Be'lal, Demandred, Sammael) turned due to personal rivalry with LTT, so why shouldn't Rand have his own equivalent?), never smiles (just like Demandred, although they might do so for different reasons, which RJ would know and we might not), uses "so-called Aiel" (which is to draw a link with Moridin, but we just associate with the Chosen), and so the picture he is trying to draw gets a little distorted, and suddenly people get the wrong idea. Not a problem, happens all the time, easily corrected. But then people start claiming that he changed things, for whatever reason. He says he didn't, that he just didn't notice, which is plausible. Some people refuse to give him the benefit of the doubt. He gets called a liar for saying he never intended a given theory when the evidence for that theory is not overwhelming. Now, he could lie, if he wanted to. But I'm just saying, the evidence for Taimandred isn't all that massive, RJ could simply have been caught by surprise, as he claimed. Just give him the benefit of the doubt, unless you actually have a reason to think otherwise - and if you do, provide. Calling him a liar with nothing to back you up is somewhat bad taste.

 

Nevertheless, when we're talking about resolving minor plot details on a scale of "books" rather than "chapters" (let alone "pages"), it's irresponsible not to be critical.

No it's not. In many - even most - cases, it's perfectly reasonable for minor plot points to be resolved several books after being introduced.

 

We're not talking about Stephenie Meyer here.

Indeed. RJ could spell his own name, for one thing.

 

However, it makes absolutely zero sense to me that almost each book since LoC outsold the previous books when they were released if those books are as badly written as you believe them to be.

Well, there is a difference between quality and popularity.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

In many - even most - cases, it's perfectly reasonable for minor plot points to be resolved several books after being introduced.

 

I'll give you "some," but not "many" and certainly not "most." Most of the great books in literature were able to fit into a single bound tome. Hyper-extended minor plotlines are more commonly a hallmark of serialization, but Jordan was not trying to write a serial: WoT is an epic. The absolute length of the series as well as the ratio of plot to words both justify a responsible criticism of the story's pace. From that criticism--and I'll point out that "criticism" is a neutral word, not a negative one as laypeople sometimes take it for--we can each make our own judgment as to whether the series' creeping plot torpor was too extensive for what it delivers. My view is that the series lost its momentum from LoC to CoT. That is not a neutral position, and you're not obliged to share it, but the underlying criticism is validly made and objective: WoT is on the far end of the curve in terms of brevity; indeed the series' length and detail is one of its most conspicuous qualities. We'd be irresponsible not to criticize it. When minor plot details progress on a scale of books rather than chapters, that's different from how things are usually done, and worthy of analysis. Of course, participation is voluntary. I know there are some fans of book series who would only have positive things said of the author. I think such unqualified adulation makes a lovely background light to reinforce what successful qualities a given series has, but I, personally, always approach my readings with an intellectual bent.

 

I'm not ashamed to say that I think Lanfear and Ishamael and Mat are some of my favorite fantasy characters, or that RJ's Age of Legends is one of the best renditions of the Atlantis trope in fantasy literature, or that his magic system is exquisitely well thought-out. But I'm also not ashamed to say that The Wheel of Time is bigger than he could handle, and that things got away from him after TFoH and only recently have begun to form up again. Is that an absolute fact? No, it's my literary opinion. Is it heresy? Depends on whom you ask, I guess. Where I come from, caring about a work enough to be extensively critical of it is a gesture of endearment. Again, that should make sense when you remember that "critical" is a neutral word and not a sideways insult. And if criticism sometimes leads to negative conclusions, well, that's life. I'll still be buying ToM, you can count on it.

[Dida]

In many - even most - cases, it's perfectly reasonable for minor plot points to be resolved several books after being introduced.

 

My view is that the series lost its momentum from LoC to CoT. That is not a neutral position, and you're not obliged to share it, but the underlying criticism is validly made and objective: WoT is on the far end of the curve in terms of brevity; indeed the series' length and detail is one of its most conspicuous qualities. We'd be irresponsible not to criticize it.

 

  If one defines criticism, as dropping an authors'works from my attention span for years and years, then giving it another chance after Knife of Dreams was given a personal endorsement from a group distant relatives. Then yes, that is being critical. For myself years ago, it was how the story changed in 'A Crown of Swords' and 'A Path of Daggers'.  A character I enjoyed in the previous six books, Rand al'Thor, I just did not enjoy who he became.  At the time, I didn't understand or have a good idea of where the author was taking readers.       

 

           

I'm not ashamed to say that I think Lanfear and Ishamael and Mat are some of my favorite fantasy characters, or that RJ's Age of Legends is one of the best renditions of the Atlantis trope in fantasy literature, or that his magic system is exquisitely well thought-out.

 

  I suspect that in 'Tower of Midnight' each of those characters will made an appearance. In Lanfear's case a highly dramatic reentry into the series, during the Tower of Ghenjei scenes.  It's a plot twist, I doubt many readers have seriously considered, as Jordan threw in the distraction of Cyndane.  I just hope Brandon Sanderson can get the Daughter of the Night's character voice right, if its off the book is going to hurt.  The tensions interplaying between Rand, Lanfear, Moiraine, Ishamael have created a truly interesting story, in my view.

 

 

 

     

 

 

But I'm also not ashamed to say that The Wheel of Time is bigger than he could handle, and that things got away from him after TFoH and only recently have begun to form up again. Is that an absolute fact? No, it's my literary opinion. Is it heresy? Depends on whom you ask, I guess. Where I come from, caring about a work enough to be extensively critical of it is a gesture of endearment. Again, that should make sense when you remember that "critical" is a neutral word and not a sideways insult. And if criticism sometimes leads to negative conclusions, well, that's life. I'll still be buying ToM, you can count on it.

[CUBAREY]

the series' creeping plot torpor

 

Not exactly a nuetral criticism. The pace may have slowed down but in the middleof th series but muchthe sae could be said of the middle of many one volume novels.

 

Is it heresy? Depends on whom you ask, I guess.

Your making your statement in the foremost "fan" site for the Wheel of Time series. Questoning whether it's herecy is like making the comment that Jesus was not the son of God to the assembled Catholic College of Cardinals. Your point in the abstract may have some value but giventhe setting its a bit strange to qustion whether its heretical.

 

 

 

[benny the ball]

Sorry guys this may or may not go down well with some :D

 

I liked aCoS,tPoD and WH and what happened to Rand and co throughout it. I know there were loads of other sighns but i saw those books as the creme of Rands and latter the AM's sanity as well as their insanity taking its toll on the people fighting for the forces of light and setting the stage for them later in the series as more than just some insane dudes.

 

Before The Well men who could channle were just classified as dangerous or crazy if not both. Those two books showed us for what most of them really are(at least most AM).

Boys, men and grandfathers learning to use the OP for whatever reason they might have be it the grand idea of saving the world, power for themselves or just looking out for their loved ones.

 

People always say how their fav is Mat or Perrin or Rand ect, ect. Don't get me wrong i'm a huge fan of all three and personally think Rand and Mat are the best characters in the whole series but lets not forget that without aCoS and tPoD we'd have no Narishma, Flinn, Mor, Hopwil, Neald or Grady.

 

As far as i'm concerned the series as a whole would be far, far worse without charaters like these(and more Talmanes, Noel, olover ect the list goes on) by the end. When TG happenes i don't want to see a load of nameless n00bs getting owned i want some emotion.

 

Sorry went a bit off topic there long post short. We need aCoS-Cot for the Charaters as much as any story it contributed too.

 

 

[Lacanos]

Sorry guys this may or may not go down well with some :D

 

I liked aCoS,tPoD and WH and what happened to Rand and co throughout it. I know there were loads of other sighns but i saw those books as the creme of Rands and latter the AM's sanity as well as their insanity taking its toll on the people fighting for the forces of light and setting the stage for them later in the series as more than just some insane dudes.

 

Before The Well men who could channle were just classified as dangerous or crazy if not both. Those two books showed us for what most of them really are(at least most AM).

Boys, men and grandfathers learning to use the OP for whatever reason they might have be it the grand idea of saving the world, power for themselves or just looking out for their loved ones.

 

People always say how their fav is Mat or Perrin or Rand ect, ect. Don't get me wrong i'm a huge fan of all three and personally think Rand and Mat are the best characters in the whole series but lets not forget that without aCoS and tPoD we'd have no Narishma, Flinn, Mor, Hopwil, Neald or Grady.

 

As far as i'm concerned the series as a whole would be far, far worse without charaters like these(and more Talmanes, Noel, olover ect the list goes on) by the end. When TG happenes i don't want to see a load of nameless n00bs getting owned i want some emotion.

 

Sorry went a bit off topic there long post short. We need aCoS-Cot for the Charaters as much as any story it contributed too.

 

 

So the series would be crap without minor characters e.g. asha'man? Probably

[benny the ball]

yes and no. Thats what i mean their not just ashaman. Thats like saying mats just a gambler or perrin's just a blacksmith apprentice. otherwise yeah your right. the series is built on its minor characters as much as the major.

 

[Mr Ares]

In many - even most - cases, it's perfectly reasonable for minor plot points to be resolved several books after being introduced.

 

I'll give you "some," but not "many" and certainly not "most." Most of the great books in literature were able to fit into a single bound tome. Hyper-extended minor plotlines are more commonly a hallmark of serialization, but Jordan was not trying to write a serial: WoT is an epic.

Can't it be both?

The absolute length of the series as well as the ratio of plot to words both justify a responsible criticism of the story's pace.

But pace wasn't what you were talking about. If a plotline requires only two short chapters, but those chapters must be separated by many other chapters, and thus end up books apart, that doesn't indicate a lack of pace. If the same plotline, with its requirement for only two short chapters instead had four or five chapters, that would be a problem. So saying x finished y boks after it started is meaningless - all it tells you is itself, that something finished a certain number of books after it started, not why, or whether it should.

 

But I'm also not ashamed to say that The Wheel of Time is bigger than he could handle

In what sense? Do you feel that the problem was that he was juggling too many plotlines? Or that those plotlines he was juggling were juggled with insufficient brevity? How does an excess of description, and chapters that do less to advance the plot than could be managed given their length indicate the series was bigger than he could handle? If you have a chapter in which half the time is spent on a major character taking a bath, to give a purely hypothetical example, how does that work to support your conclusion? Well, it doesn't. RJ admitted that CoT (bearing in mind that the perceieved problems of the later books are not confined to this book, but it is the one held up as the worst book, and best example of those flaws) had some problems. He also admitted that those problems were as a result of him trying something new with the structure, and by the time he had discovered it wasn't really working he was too far into it to just start again from scratch. If we look at Geogre R.R. Martin, we see the problems that arise from that - you have five year waits between books and your fans get annoyed. The RJ way, you have a three year wait and fans get annoyed. I think it is quite possible that having to juggle more and more characters and plotlines caused RJ some trouble, but I don't think that there were too many characers and plotlines for him to manage. Of ocurse, given that he has to produce books over a given length and preferably with some regularity, this means that there is only so much trimming of excess words that can be done before the book gets too short.

 

Sorry went a bit off topic there long post short. We need aCoS-Cot for the Characters as much as any story it contributed too.

True. I also think it's true that including these characters isn't what led to the slowing of the pace that so many complain of. It's not that there were too many people and plots, its that too little was done to advance them that people seem to have a problem with. As CUBAREY points out, it's a problem often faced with middle bits, of series or single novels.

[Lord of the Morning]

I'm sorry if this has been discussed already, but has the Taim=Be'lal theory been debunked yet?  I remember a RJ quote that the DO could bring a balefired soul back if the amount of power used wasnt huge, Be'lal would be a perfect example of this as hes the only forsaken not balefired in a massive Rand attack, but rather by moiraine, who im sure, knowing the dangers in balefire, would use the minimum amount of Saidar possible to get it done.

 

Taim's coat of arms is the same as Be'lal's, and they would be approximately the same strength in the power.  I also think their colours are the same, though all male forsaken sport blood red and black.  Only i have is Taim's disdain for swords, noting that Be'lal was a blademaster, though that might be part of his disguise.

 

Taim escaped Aes Sedai custody sometime after Be'lal's death and before the appearance of Taim in LoC, perhaps he was taken by the BA to Shayol Ghul and had Be'lal's soul planted in his meat suit.

 

Timelines fit, as do their character traits, would be a freakin fantastic reentry to the series after 10 book on hiatus.

[Mr Ares]

Be'lal/Taim has indeed been shot down. Aside from making no sense, we have a quote: "Jordan: No, no, no. Because of the Bore and the fact that the Bore is best perceived, the Bore doesn't really exist in Shayol Ghul, the Bore exists everywhere, its simply in Shayol Ghul where it can be perceived most easily. By the same token he has greater access to people at Shayol Ghul than he does elsewhere, or did, and uh, that's, when you know, Rahvin died, Rahvin is balefired out of time, slain out of time, cannot be reached, gone. Be'lal, (names someone else)..."

[Fains nose]

I think there was some link between Taim and Sammel, they were both using the same 'gauntleted fist clutching lightning' sigil, maybe Taim was Sammaels pawn, then once he gained power with an Ashaman  army, Moridin offered Taim membership in the Forsaken or put Taim in a position where he only had to answer to him, explaining the red and black theme at Taims palace and this started a beef between Taim and Sammael