The Life and Times of an Aes Sedai; A Study in Stupidity

[bronnt]

I think that it's poor writing, in one sense, which has made the Aes Sedai so systematically dumb.  It's clear from all the time devoted to writing up the White Tower Split/unification plot that they're supposed to be of great importance, but their many failures and idiocies have long sense made them irrelevant.  At least, other than isolated examples; it's crazy that Moiraine is defying convention by spending so long away from the Tower, when there's nothing AT the Tower except for more Aes Sedai.  Being servants should mean that their mission statement involves actual service, but instead, they coop themselves up and play politics.

 

Clearly it wasn't always that way, but the reader can't help but wonder why there are so few Aes Sedai actually being Aes Sedai rather than just cultists.  The WT organizational structure is meant to mimic a monastery or convent, but your average nun is much more involved in her immediate community than most Aes Sedai we meet.  I think RJ actually means to imply that Aes Sedai ARE involved in world affairs, more than we believe, but we seldom see this on-screen except for the exceptional examples (Moiraine, Cadsuane).  Otherwise, what's the purpose in Healers who never do any Healing?

 

What's frustrating from a plot standpoint is that Egwene started off as an outsider seeing all their flaws but now she's immersing herself in Aes Sedai ways and sinking into stupidity herself.  Suddenly the Three Oaths have become sacred to her when she earlier realized they were doing more harm than good.  Earlier she knew the pointlessness of starting a battle in the streets of Tar Valon, and then she nearly orders it without even sending across an envoy (following the battle) to discuss terms.  And despite all the stupid things she's done, she gets all high and might, chews out everyone on both sides of the lines when she wins her victory and tells them hwo stupid they are.  Makes her really hard to like.

[Shard]

I think that it's poor writing, in one sense, which has made the Aes Sedai so systematically dumb.  It's clear from all the time devoted to writing up the White Tower Split/unification plot that they're supposed to be of great importance, but their many failures and idiocies have long sense made them irrelevant.  At least, other than isolated examples; it's crazy that Moiraine is defying convention by spending so long away from the Tower, when there's nothing AT the Tower except for more Aes Sedai.  Being servants should mean that their mission statement involves actual service, but instead, they coop themselves up and play politics.

 

Clearly it wasn't always that way, but the reader can't help but wonder why there are so few Aes Sedai actually being Aes Sedai rather than just cultists.  The WT organizational structure is meant to mimic a monastery or convent, but your average nun is much more involved in her immediate community than most Aes Sedai we meet.  I think RJ actually means to imply that Aes Sedai ARE involved in world affairs, more than we believe, but we seldom see this on-screen except for the exceptional examples (Moiraine, Cadsuane).  Otherwise, what's the purpose in Healers who never do any Healing?

 

What's frustrating from a plot standpoint is that Egwene started off as an outsider seeing all their flaws but now she's immersing herself in Aes Sedai ways and sinking into stupidity herself.  Suddenly the Three Oaths have become sacred to her when she earlier realized they were doing more harm than good.  Earlier she knew the pointlessness of starting a battle in the streets of Tar Valon, and then she nearly orders it without even sending across an envoy (following the battle) to discuss terms.  And despite all the stupid things she's done, she gets all high and might, chews out everyone on both sides of the lines when she wins her victory and tells them hwo stupid they are.  Makes her really hard to like.

 

You will please note she didn't start thinking this way until AFTER Halima aka Balthemel got his/her hands on Eggy. They couldn't have the AS leader possibly undoing the Three Oaths now could they?

[clu7ch]

I think if they got a little 'action' more often and from someone other than a pillow friend, they'd loosen up a bit and level out as normal freaking people with super powers.

[µ231282083275]

I think that it's poor writing, in one sense, which has made the Aes Sedai so systematically dumb.

 

the entire history of the westlands is one of stagnation and decline it would make no sense either structurally or thematically for the white tower to be an exception.  in the wider context the white tower isnt any less retrogressive or authoritarian than the other institutions they interact with. 

 

the white tower is p clearly a poorly run organization but its hard to criticize them for failing to foster innovation or social/democratic mobility when the broader culture they recruit out of doesnt value those either.  i mean its fair to have a higher expectation of the white tower - its memebers have a unique perspective that should allow them greater freedom to take risks than other executive powers in the region - but the white tower still needs the support of those powers.

 

anyway i guess my big complaint with op's post is that he makes no real attempt to consider how the white tower's policy options are limited by the actions/ideologies of the rest of the westlands. 

 

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

I think you nailed it, bronnt. RJ's idea for WoT was so massive, so ambitious, that even he couldn't really do it the justice it deserved, and he fell short in numerous areas--one of which was depicting the Aes Sedai as a credibly redoubtable powerhouse of fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, and fanatical devotion. (Okay, so maybe that last one would be the Whitecloaks...)

[TheAngryDruid]

Great OP from Luckers.

 

I think a lot of if it the fact that they set themselves apart, see themselves as separate, and see themselves as too important.

 

Thus, since they are so important, the affairs of the Tower of of the most importance, so that's where they spend most of their time. Neglecting their supposed duties.

 

And as for how so many supposedly intelligent people can act like total idiots, I'd say it happens all the time. Here's two ideas:

 

1) Self interest. Going around do-gooding for causes and such (especially in the case of Blues, Reds, and Greens, but Yellows, Greys, and Browns too can end what is supposed to be a very long life. Just think of all that could be wasted if they get killed in some unimportant skirmish or seeking some trivial piece of knowledge. Being so important, they'll only do risky stuff if it is really important.

 

2) Examples about in own culture.

 

Just take a few minutes in any type of fanatical religious, economic, or political body. Or even a democratically elected body.

 

We have: a belief you get tons of virgins in the afterlife if you blow yourself up and take a bunch of innocents with you (despite the fact that killing innocents is forbidden); a belief the Bible is literally true (despite the fact that Jesus didn't even believe it all; it endorses slavery, it endorses stoning people to death for swearing; says killing an unborn fetus only merits a fine; say a  man survived in the belly of a whale for a month (no oxygen in there, you know).

 

And that's just some of the religious stuff. In economics we have the belief that one can keep consuming more and more and more every year with no apparent consequence or idea that the system is not sustainable (GDP = C+I+G); and the idea that you can keep cutting taxes and increasing spending forever; wanting to reduce the deficit w/out raising taxes or cutting any big ticket spending items or stopping a war.

 

In politics thinking corporations that routinely chose profit over human life and dignity (BP, Toyota, Wellpoint, Mining companies, Wall St to name a few recent examples) are just going to willingly sing kumbaya (sp) and willing give up their gravy train just because you call for everyone coming together in a spirit of cooperation.

 

The list is endless. On both sides. If you don't want to see something (or it doesn't benefit you to see it), you don't.

 

Heck, I heard LT's wife on the radio talking about IF he cheated on her. Or Brian Cushing defenders saying he didn't take roids. Or Michael Jackson defenders, etc.

 

[Auld Manriva]

The only thing I have an issue with concerning Luckers' "treatise" is his view of the Oaths. Your view Luckers, is to me, heavily colored by a contemporary perception. No matter their weaknesses, side effects or "our" perceptions of their usefulness; 3rd Age Aes Sedai and the Three Oaths go together like bread and butter, milk and cookies or any number of "Oklahoma" pairings (horse & carriage etc. for those unfamiliar with the musical).

 

The Three Oaths, as Egs realized, are what define AS. Not WO's, not Windfinders. Neither of those groups are as widely skilled with weaves as AS, except in some specialized uses of their invention. The oaths serve a purpose as do RL oaths such as those given and held to (mostly) by groups such as The Templars of our past. We cannot equate "our" perception of oaths today with those of the story. Oaths are taken seriously in this fantasy world as in our own past. TODAY none are, and those who do take them serious are generally ridiculed as being naive or worse.

 

Now... before i catch broadsides. I'm not saying The 3 Oaths ought to stay as they are. Not at all. I think they need to be altered in ways the Wonder Girls have discussed, such as them being able to be removed if a Whoa!man wants to "retire" from the Tower and other ways I'm too lazy to ponder at the moment.

 

I've also said elsewhere that those who wish to BE Aes Sedai should be "cross trained" by WO's and Windfinders (w/o the WF bully boy tactics) and both those groups trained in Tower techniques.

 

Someone mentioned the Catholic Church earlier, I think concerning, the "mystery" aspect. I believe The 3 Oaths work towards that end as well. If people knew a whoa!man was shortening her life span by taking these and took them anyway? I think there would be a new perception of The White Tower denizens.

[Giganos]

Luckers, I think that I may have been unintentionally channeling your essence every time I talk (ok, when I rave) about the mess that has become the white tower.

 

This has to be one of the very best pieces I've ever seen analysing WoT.

 

I've always found it difficult to play Aes Sedai, your article sums up why very nicely.

[Luckers]

Your view Luckers, is to me, heavily colored by a contemporary perception. No matter their weaknesses, side effects or "our" perceptions of their usefulness; 3rd Age Aes Sedai and the Three Oaths go together like bread and butter, milk and cookies or any number of "Oklahoma" pairings (horse & carriage etc. for those unfamiliar with the musical).

 

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by my view being coloured--my analysis was at all times directed towards the specifics of the Aes Sedai situation in context of their world--I made no judgements based on modern perceptions of Oaths, but rather addressed the effects those Oaths had, and the perceptions of characters in the story towards them.

 

The oaths serve a purpose as do RL oaths such as those given and held to (mostly) by groups such as The Templars of our past. We cannot equate "our" perception of oaths today with those of the story. Oaths are taken seriously in this fantasy world as in our own past. TODAY none are, and those who do take them serious are generally ridiculed as being naive or worse.

 

That in no way relates to my comments. None of my points about the Oaths related to my 'modern' disdain for the concept of an Oath--if indeed I have such a disdain. I kept my analysis specifically to the effects, practical and subtle, of power bound Oaths, the resultant implications of those particular power-bound Oaths, and to the perception of the other characters around towards those sworn in the Oaths.

 

Real world concepts never came into it.

 

The Three Oaths, as Egs realized, are what define AS. Not WO's, not Windfinders.

 

That is part of the modern foolishness though, because the swearing of the Oaths does not define an Aes Sedai. This is not me interjecting my external opinion, the Aes Sedai themselves have shown this--consider, the Aes Sedai speculated several times early in the series about the existence of Aes Sedai accross the Aryth Ocean, Aes Sedai that would not be sworn to the Oaths, nor trained in the Tower, or subject to the strength and training requirements Westland Aes Sedai undergo--or any of the other systems Tower Aes Sedai might use to define themselves. Verin is another example of this. Not bound by the Oaths, not even 'holding to them in her heart', as Egwene was wont to claim about herself--yet Egwene shows no hesitation in considering her Aes Sedai. For that matter the inverse is true also--if a woman (say Therava) obtained a Binder and swore the Three it would not make her Aes Sedai

 

You cannot have a definition of a word that does not cover all those you would name that word, nor can you have one that should a woman fulfil it she would still not be thought of by that word. The Aes Sedai are aware of this, they simply do not pause to question the contradiction.

 

Ultimately this goes to show that even the Tower Aes Sedai, despite their claims about the Oaths, retain an understanding that the mandate of the Aes Sedai, the defining nature of their existence, goes beyond the trappings of the Tower Aes Sedai.

 

That they think what they do about the Oaths is the result of laziness and pride. Laziness because this definition is an easier one to hold then the more ephemeral concept of 'Serving All'. Pride, because as I raised above, the Oaths represent the greatest failure in Tower history. Subsequently they wrapped the Oaths in honour, and tout them as a thing of pride--anything else would sting too much. This is a very human, not to mention very Aes Sedai thing to do.

 

 

[Astus]

Just a random thought. I see the three oaths as a kind of precautionary measure.

When Saidin was tainted and the Breaking was brought on, it involved the male Aes Sedai laying waste to cities towns and people. Thus leading to a massive distrust of Aes Sedai as a whole because as new generations are born, images of what life used to be like almost dissipate. In order to assure the people (or themselves) that they would not take the same path as their brethren, the oaths were enacted? It certainly seems that they were created to elicit trust (you can judge how successful that is, haha) 

 

What if Saidar was tainted somehow? Then the females would go along the same path. By taking the oaths of not to make a weapon for a man and not to use the power as a weapon (unless to protect herself or a sister) then wouldn't that stop them from laying waste to the world if their power source was tainted? Maybe the oaths and perceptions of them have become diluted as the generations have continued, hence our current stock of Aes Sedai. Now, this is all supposition and maybe it's been stated that something different but take it as it is, haha.

 

While modern perceptions of and the usefulness of the oaths seems to be waning, I think they must have been initially used in a much more meaningful way.

 

I agree with your analysis on as a whole and really think the Aes Sedai should have been more involved and effective. Instead of casting an illusion of immensity and the like, they should be actively working towards what their callings are (ie Yellow Ajah - Healing Centers, Green - Military-like (defense even?)) and that might have softened the blow that happened with Hawkings.

All in all, a very nice read.

 

[Luckers]

It wouldn't work. The Oaths work entirely on the perception of the Aes Sedai. Once insane their perceptions would skiew. Consider how Merillile and the other throw fireballs at the raken in tPoD until they know its not shadowspawn. Same here. Take Morr for instance, he wanted to build a Tower to keep Min safe. No Oaths against violence would have stopped him dimantling the palace to do so. And Lews Therin was entirely dissociative--he did not see those he had killed, and as such would not have been forestalled by any Oaths.

[Astus]

So perception really is reality in the case of the Aes Sedai. Your examples are noted.

I really should have thought that through, thanks man.

[GB]

I didnt know where to post this so apologies for posting it on the wrong thread

 

I was doing my re-read and Egwene says she got the oath rod from Saerin earlier in the morning. However it strikes me as odd that when she went to the WT to get the rod, why didnt she ask if Elaida survived?

 

Egwnene own thoughts were that she has to assume that Elaida is in still Amyrlin after the Seachan raid.

 

Did anyone else notice that? and why didnt she ask Saerin>? That seem to be like the more logical thing to have done.

[csarmi]

She's acting very stupid after the Seanchan attack.

[Luckers]

Mmm. That is weird.

[wvlr2]

I was doing my re-read and Egwene says she got the oath rod from Saerin earlier in the morning. However it strikes me as odd that when she went to the WT to get the rod, why didnt she ask if Elaida survived?

 

Excellent catch!    I'm surprised no one mentioned that before.    Now that you brought it up - it does stick out there.

 

 

Also on the original thread -  (sorry if it has been mentioned before)

 

This same thought adds to the explanation of why all the better varients of healing were lost/not recovered sooner.    With almost all of the Yellow AS and trainees held up in the Tower, the opportunities to practice their trade is reduced to only the cases to occur/or are brought to the WT.  Where as many Trainees as possable would be clustered around each healing that took place.

 

Much better (As Luckers said) to have the Accepted out in the villages & such where they get to see & do more healings personally.

 

Just my thoughts.

[GB]

 

Yeah it is quite strange indeed which is why I thought I might have missed read something or misunderstood.

 

Guess we will never know.  :(

[CUBAREY]

Much better (As Luckers said) to have the Accepted out in the villages & such where they get to see & do more healings personally.

 

 

 

 

Except that Accepted still have to be trained and educated in everything that AS must learn. Moreover, since women channelers did not pick the Ajah's until the became AS it would be quite wasteful to send out Accepted to such villges if there was a good cance they would not become Yellow. It should also be noted that while Accepted are guided to the "right" Ajah there is also evidence that there is an attempt by te Ajah's to "guide" any promising Accepted to thei ranks. Thus, even if it did not interfear with their education it would be rather strange if the other Ajahs would accept the Yellow in monopoloizing any Accepted that should any interest in healing.

[Charlz Guybon]

I really just don't agree. I mean sure I doubt the Black Ajah improved the situation, but I see the exact same character flaws in the Black as in the rest of the Ajahs. I really just don't think this can be laid at the feet of the Shadow. Maria said it best in answering the question of whether Ishamael was responsible for the Oaths. "Sometimes things happen without an agent of the Dark One’s involvement, and sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

 

 

Well it does seem from what we know (from both known history/myth and more reliably from Mat) that society and the Aes Sedai were more advanced/capable before the Trolloc Wars. The heavy casualties among experienced and capable Aes Sedai and the introduction of the Black Ajah likely was a blow the organization never recovered from. That's not saying the Aes Sedai of the 2nd covenant weren't without flaws, but they seem to have been better than the current crew by a fair amount.

[Luckers]

Much better (As Luckers said) to have the Accepted out in the villages & such where they get to see & do more healings personally.

 

 

Except that Accepted still have to be trained and educated in everything that AS must learn.

 

My idea was that Accepted, having finished their training, and undergone the test for the shawl, go out to these Halls of Servants and spend a month in each. They would have learnt everything an Aes Sedai needs before heading out, but they would not yet be Aes Sedai. This would allow them to meet with the general populace of the various nations prior and gain real, first hand experience in the world prior to being expected to bear the responsibilities of an Aes Sedai in that world

 

Moreover, since women channelers did not pick the Ajah's until the became AS it would be quite wasteful to send out Accepted to such villges if there was a good cance they would not become Yellow. It should also be noted that while Accepted are guided to the "right" Ajah there is also evidence that there is an attempt by te Ajah's to "guide" any promising Accepted to thei ranks. Thus, even if it did not interfear with their education it would be rather strange if the other Ajahs would accept the Yellow in monopoloizing any Accepted that should any interest in healing.

 

These Halls wouldn't just be hospices. They'd also be sanctuaries for Aes Sedai out in the world, barricks for the Greens along the Blight, embassies for the Greys. Systematic recruitment and training would be launched out of them, as would monitoring of rogue channelers.

 

In effect the purpose is to give the Accepted experience in all aspects of life for an Aes Sedai, as well as experience in the world at large, before she is expected to take on the shawl. In the meantime these Accepted could suppliment the Aes Sedai in these halls, especially now in the early days when they number so few.

[Vermillion]

To me the biggest problem with them is they are almost purely accademic without living their life as people first.  Without getting to experience life they are just children emotionally.  They need to just get out the tower more and get more involved on a lower level rather than lie and be cryptic.

 

Sadly the Randland the AS power seem to have trickle down effect.  The catty bullish behavior seem to be a plague with woman seemingly having the upper hand socially.

[aunt_pol]

I just wanted to pitch in on the culling argument. Every time it's raised, it almost seems as if only men carry channeling chromosomes to pass on. Killing channeling men is only half the problem- Aes Sedai remaining childless is the other half. Nobody seems to bring that up.

 

Wonderful OP, Luckers. Sad, though, that we won't get to see hospices, embassies etc written in. Let's petition for the Outriggers.

[Luckers]

I just wanted to pitch in on the culling argument. Every time it's raised, it almost seems as if only men carry channeling chromosomes to pass on. Killing channeling men is only half the problem- Aes Sedai remaining childless is the other half. Nobody seems to bring that up.

 

I actually think the whole 'culling' thing is a false point. We know from the Seanchan that the vast majority of channelers are learners--damane live about six times as long as sul'dam, yet there are always far more sul'dam than damane. As such those men who were gentled don't represent enough of the gene pool to have an effect. For that matter the Aes Sedai and Kin, with their celibacy rules, don't represent enough of the population to be truly effective. The VAST majority of those with the channeling gene remain within the gene pool thanks to the Aes Sedai's poor recruitment policies.

 

My guess is that it is a lack of inter-breeding between male and female channelers that has caused the the decline. We know, too, that in Shara the percentage of channelers has remained higher. Shara, where the children of channelers are required by law only to mate with the children of channelers.

[Charlz Fel]

This has been discussed before.  In spite of the fact that Luckers makes a very good argument here (as always), RJ specifically cited the culling in a Question of the Week when discussing the reduced proportion of channelers.  (He also said that the proportion has only been reduced by about a factor of 3; the real problem is that very, very few of those have any idea they can channel.)

[nolirion]

But if those foolish girl had been strong , those Rand will have done all he have done ?

Will he have such power (influence and strength )?

I agree with Luckers but again imagine they where as strong as in the AOL ?

Making the same choice , refuse Lew Therin female channeller  ?