Shadowspawn after Tarmon Gaidonbowl: Will they or Won't they.

[Lacanos]

If I remember that foretelling correctly, the line was "the great battle done, but the world not yet done with battle....the guardians balance the servants...the world teeters on the edge of a knife".

I'm pretty sure it wasn't referring to tarmon gaidon, but more likely dumai wells or the battle with the seanchan depending on which book it was (I believe 7?)

 

The great battle could only refer to the Last Battle. Why would there be a foretelling that there was a battle and that there will be more battles? Everybody would have already known that. The world is on a straight course to a massive war - not with the Dark One or his Shadowspawn - with each other. It's been noted multiple times throughout the series that Rand's control over the nations he conquered will dissolve the moment the Last Battle ends and that will leave them in a state of anarchy. He worries that the laws he put in place will be removed simply because he set them up.

 

Throw the Seanchan into the mix. They have nearly half the known world, even if Seandar itself is in a state of civil war. Their truce with the Dragon will last until the Last Battle is over.

 

But even if I'm wrong and this "great battle" isn't Tarmon Gaidon, why should it be Dumai's Wells? That battle was just a skirmish compared to Perrin and the Seanchan defeating the Shaido. And how many trollocs were destroyed at Rand's hideout?

 

Anyway, I think it's the Last Battle this refers to and I don't think we'll see much of the aftermath unless the outrigger novels get written. If I'm right we'll likely never know it.

 

Firstly, @Mr Ares: I made a post explaining on the previous thread that was promptly ignored. Try responding with argument yourself.

Which other thread? Provide. Your post on the previous page of this thread just said "I'm pretty sure it wasn't referring to tarmon gaidon." That's not much of an argument. My counter argument, just as convincing: I'm pretty sure it does. Of course you were ignored, you didn't say anything.

As for this prophecy and why I've always believed it doesn't refer to Tarmon Gaidon:

“The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade.”

 

The first crucial phrase there is "the great battle". Now, I agree that the most likely interpretation of that as a standalone phrase is as referring to Tarmon Gaidon as that will likely be the largest battle ever seen. However, these other battles (Dumai Wells, war with the Seanchan, seeing as the telling is in book 6 could even refer to the huge battles with the Shaido in book 5). I personally however think it's most likely to refer to Dumai Wells, admittedly based upon weak evidence. The phrase "the great battle *done*" could mean the viewing is set in the future, or it could be a reference to events that have recently happened - Dumai Wells being the closest battle to this foretelling and therefore probably able to fit with the timescale of this. It's not a small battle either.

 

The other phrases are certainly applicable now: The Guardians balance the Servants - we can agree the argument for that can be set now or after (if you exclude theories of the power going, which I personally do).

The Land divided by the return - again, could apply now, could apply after depending on how the Seanchan plot develops in the next book.

Future teetering on the edge of a knife - now this I feel more keenly now. Only now does the very existence of the future itself depend on victory.

 

I also think the very last thing you said, "Anyway, I think it's the Last Battle this refers to and I don't think we'll see much of the aftermath unless the outrigger novels get written. If I'm right we'll likely never know it." makes me believe that it can't refer to after the last battle - simply because we'll likely see a resolution to it as it was important enough unlike most of her prophecies to mention specifically.

The rest of your post boils down to a more long winded "I don't think it refers to TG." You base it on no evidence. Dumai's Wells was a fairly big battle, TG will be bigger. You think it refers to DW. Fine. But don't claim others are misinterpreting that Prophecy when you have given no reason for us to believe they are.

 

Mate, I've provided a decent reason for it to refer to DW or possibly the battle with the Shaido/Couladin - time frame. All the terms of the prophecy fitted and could foreseeably fit in the future, so the question is: now or later. The use of the future teetering on the edge of a knife, name of the next book being the path of daggers, among other factors, convince me that it's a prophecy referring to the immediate future, as opposed to the post-TG period.

[Muad Cheade]

I think it's funny watching Mr Ares kill people even when it is happening to you.

But you're a Grey Man, so technically we wouldn't see you until it was too late.

 

Mate, I've provided a decent reason for it to refer to DW or possibly the battle with the Shaido/Couladin - time frame. All the terms of the prophecy fitted and could foreseeably fit in the future, so the question is: now or later. The use of the future teetering on the edge of a knife, name of the next book being the path of daggers, among other factors, convince me that it's a prophecy referring to the immediate future, as opposed to the post-TG period.

The burden of proof is on your shoulders and you haven't supplied that much evidence. The reason the book is named "PoD" is because of the Seanchan saying which is relative to its plot. By that reasoning, the series should have ended at KoD due to the name.

 

Tar'mon Gaidon has been anticipated and feared for thousands of years and will decide the fate of the entire Pattern. It's highly unlikely Dumai's Well would have precedence over it.

[Lacanos]

I think it's funny watching Mr Ares kill people even when it is happening to you.

But you're a Grey Man, so technically we wouldn't see you until it was too late.

 

Mate, I've provided a decent reason for it to refer to DW or possibly the battle with the Shaido/Couladin - time frame. All the terms of the prophecy fitted and could foreseeably fit in the future, so the question is: now or later. The use of the future teetering on the edge of a knife, name of the next book being the path of daggers, among other factors, convince me that it's a prophecy referring to the immediate future, as opposed to the post-TG period.

The burden of proof is on your shoulders and you haven't supplied that much evidence. The reason the book is named "PoD" is because of the Seanchan saying which is relative to its plot. By that reasoning, the series should have ended at KoD due to the name.

 

Tar'mon Gaidon has been anticipated and feared for thousands of years and will decide the fate of the entire Pattern. It's highly unlikely Dumai's Well would have precedence over it.

 

I'd argue the burden of truth is on both of us. And I'd argue that the name could have multiple inferences, RJ was never simple. Indeed, the wording of the prophecy could have been chosen with that in mind.

TG has been highly anticipated, but Dumai Wells was a "Great Battle", pretty sure we get a PoV from Perrin refering to it as such at the start of 7, will dig it out later.

[Mr Ares]

Mate, I've provided a decent reason for it to refer to DW or possibly the battle with the Shaido/Couladin - time frame. All the terms of the prophecy fitted and could foreseeably fit in the future, so the question is: now or later. The use of the future teetering on the edge of a knife, name of the next book being the path of daggers, among other factors, convince me that it's a prophecy referring to the immediate future, as opposed to the post-TG period.

Firstly, I am not your mate. And while you have a theory about why it might possibly refer to Dumai's Wells maybe, you claimed that people who thought it referred to TG were misinterpreting. You cannot justify that. Why should we accept your theory over any other? Why not TG? You have to rule out the latter before you can call it misinterpreting to say it refers to it. You haven't done that. You are convinced. Fine. No-one else is. At best you have a possibility that you put far too much weight on.

 

I think it's funny watching Mr Ares kill people even when it is happening to you.

But you're a Grey Man, so technically we wouldn't see you until it was too late.

I'm no Grey Man. I'm far too overt in my brutality to pass unnoticed. You see me coming, but you just can't stop me, nor can you turn away.

 

I think it's funny watching Mr Ares kill people even when it is happening to you.

But you're a Grey Man, so technically we wouldn't see you until it was too late.

 

I'd argue the burden of truth is on both of us.

You would lose that argument.

[Lacanos]

Mate, I've provided a decent reason for it to refer to DW or possibly the battle with the Shaido/Couladin - time frame. All the terms of the prophecy fitted and could foreseeably fit in the future, so the question is: now or later. The use of the future teetering on the edge of a knife, name of the next book being the path of daggers, among other factors, convince me that it's a prophecy referring to the immediate future, as opposed to the post-TG period.

Firstly, I am not your mate. And while you have a theory about why it might possibly refer to Dumai's Wells maybe, you claimed that people who thought it referred to TG were misinterpreting. You cannot justify that. Why should we accept your theory over any other? Why not TG? You have to rule out the latter before you can call it misinterpreting to say it refers to it. You haven't done that. You are convinced. Fine. No-one else is. At best you have a possibility that you put far too much weight on.

 

I think it's funny watching Mr Ares kill people even when it is happening to you.

But you're a Grey Man, so technically we wouldn't see you until it was too late.

I'm no Grey Man. I'm far too overt in my brutality to pass unnoticed. You see me coming, but you just can't stop me, nor can you turn away.

 

I think it's funny watching Mr Ares kill people even when it is happening to you.

But you're a Grey Man, so technically we wouldn't see you until it was too late.

 

I'd argue the burden of truth is on both of us.

You would lose that argument.

 

You really need to relax, this isn't life and death stuff, it's a disagreement over a possible interpretation of a book (then again, so were the wars of religion).

The burden of proof is most definitely on both of us, until one or the other can prove either way then neither theory floats.

[MikeRiley]

It would be the most pointless foretelling if it referred to Dumai's Wells. It brings forth absolutely no new information. Of course the world wouldn't be done with battles after Dumai's Wells. As big as it was, it was still a minor battle compared to things to come. It was not the climax of the series and I'm pretty sure everybody in Randland knew it wouldn't be the end. The only time anybody would even consider the world to be done would be after that little (great?) battle called the Last Battle. In this series I think there can only be one battle referred to as "great" in this case. The word's use is done in such a way that there can be no other. Everybody is working up towards a massive battle and we get a foretelling about battles to come even after "the great battle". Why should we believe it was something so simple as Dumai's Wells? It's just one battle out of many.

 

We already know that there's going to be chaos after the Dark One is defeated and that the White and Black Towers are due for a lengthy argument. The Seanchan are ready for war and Rand is about to deal the opening blows in TG. It sets up that foretelling nice and neat.

 

If this referred to Dumai's Wells, where is the boat? Assuming it wasn't really a boat and referred to Rand's wagon.. Rand wasn't believed dead and only Min was present and was nowhere near the wagon. You might have explained these already but I reread your posts and I missed the points if so. Running out of time here or I'd read closer.

[Lacanos]

It would be the most pointless foretelling if it referred to Dumai's Wells. It brings forth absolutely no new information. Of course the world wouldn't be done with battles after Dumai's Wells. As big as it was, it was still a minor battle compared to things to come. It was not the climax of the series and I'm pretty sure everybody in Randland knew it wouldn't be the end. The only time anybody would even consider the world to be done would be after that little (great?) battle called the Last Battle. In this series I think there can only be one battle referred to as "great" in this case. The word's use is done in such a way that there can be no other. Everybody is working up towards a massive battle and we get a foretelling about battles to come even after "the great battle". Why should we believe it was something so simple as Dumai's Wells? It's just one battle out of many.

 

We already know that there's going to be chaos after the Dark One is defeated and that the White and Black Towers are due for a lengthy argument. The Seanchan are ready for war and Rand is about to deal the opening blows in TG. It sets up that foretelling nice and neat.

 

If this referred to Dumai's Wells, where is the boat? Assuming it wasn't really a boat and referred to Rand's wagon.. Rand wasn't believed dead and only Min was present and was nowhere near the wagon. You might have explained these already but I reread your posts and I missed the points if so. Running out of time here or I'd read closer.

 

The first point I feel can be dealt with, it deals with the SQ and then talks about balance and the future on the edge of a knife.

 

The latter point makes me rethink my view somewhat - I've got no explanation for the boat part unless we take it purely metaphorically. I'll get back to you on this.

[Mr Ares]

You really need to relax, this isn't life and death stuff, it's a disagreement over a possible interpretation of a book (then again, so were the wars of religion).

The burden of proof is most definitely on both of us, until one or the other can prove either way then neither theory floats.

This is me relaxed. And no, the burden of proof lies with you. After all, you are the one who has put forward a theory, it is up to you to provide a defence of it.

[Lacanos]

You really need to relax, this isn't life and death stuff, it's a disagreement over a possible interpretation of a book (then again, so were the wars of religion).

The burden of proof is most definitely on both of us, until one or the other can prove either way then neither theory floats.

This is me relaxed. And no, the burden of proof lies with you. After all, you are the one who has put forward a theory, it is up to you to provide a defence of it.

Burden of proof would lie both with us, but MikeRiley's points have stifled my theory, thereby leaving yours the only one standing.

[Mr Ares]

I wasn't presenting a theory...

[Lacanos]

I wasn't presenting a theory...

 

Wait, so you saying it obviously refers to TG isn't a counter-theory? What would you call it then?

Stop acting so injured.

[Mr Ares]

I wasn't saying it obviously refers to TG, I was saying that it referring to TG has just as much evidence for it as your theory, therefore your claim that those who thought it referred to TG were misinterpreting was rather without substance. I was attacking what you said. Reading helps.

[Lacanos]

I wasn't saying it obviously refers to TG, I was saying that it referring to TG has just as much evidence for it as your theory, therefore your claim that those who thought it referred to TG were misinterpreting was rather without substance. I was attacking what you said. Reading helps.

Reading does indeed help. Read what you just said.

However, this is now irrelevant, I'm willing to admit I was wrong, back on topic.

 

I think it's highly unlikely we'll see any real concentration of Shadowspawn after TG IF the DO is destroyed completely. If, however, he's just re-imprisoned, I think there'll be a large number to mop up etc. I'm afraid I've got a LOTR image in my head - when Sauron died, all the orcs etc fled and died out.

[Blackhoof]

If the DO died/got reimprisoned (i hope he dies) then i think the Trollocs will disintegrate into small warring bands, no longer held together by the DO's will.

[TheBeerPatriot]

Even if the Shadowspawn die off, there's always John Denver to contend with:

"Sunshine...on my shoulders....makes me crabby"

[Unstrunghero]

Robert Jordan said in the Marcon Interview Memorial Weekend 2001:

 

Q:  At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about this Age that makes it special?

 

RJ:  No . . . every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other Turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless.

 

 

to me its like he only answered part of the question... very AS indeed, yes the turning of the wheel never changes and this age is no different then the same age during any other turnings but... he didnt directly answer if this really was the last time Rand would fight Ishamael

[Lacanos]

Robert Jordan said in the Marcon Interview Memorial Weekend 2001:

 

Q:  At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about this Age that makes it special?

 

RJ:  No . . . every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other Turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless.

 

 

to me its like he only answered part of the question... very AS indeed, yes the turning of the wheel never changes and this age is no different then the same age during any other turnings but... he didnt directly answer if this really was the last time Rand would fight Ishamael

 

Didn't he also say a different time that Fain/Mordeth had never happened before?

If so, that'd imply to me that this time is different in some way.

 

However, for the idea of the wheel to work, the DO has to be there as well for this cycle to repeat itself. PERHAPS: Rand will realise the DO has to exist for the Wheel to turn - some kind of "you need darkness and light, good and evil" thing that we've seen in so much classic fiction.

I'd prefer to see him reshape the wheel or something, change the pattern, make the wheel turn, as he says to Taim I think, "without the constant blight" of the Dark One (or words to that effect ofc)

[Blackhoof]

He say it to Moridin, actually.

[Dagon Thyne]

If the DO died/got reimprisoned (i hope he dies) then i think the Trollocs will disintegrate into small warring bands, no longer held together by the DO's will.

 

I don't think it's the Dark One's will that holds them together.  It's more of a primative clan system.  They never form armies to serve the DO unless a fade is driving them.  I think yhey are just barely intellegent beasts and not evil monsters.

[Blackhoof]

good point, but the fades are ever-present in trolloc society, and so we can't really know what they are like without fades around. maybe they can't operate without fades controlling them.

 

Maybe they just kill each other in senseless violence. Personally i think that fades are controlled by the DO, and if he dies, fades will either die with him or become wild, and lead the trollocs into civil war. The reason for this reasoning is, if the chosen aren't around, who coordinates the fades to lead raids and keep the trollocs from killing each other? The DO himself.

[Caedn of the Taardad]

Chances are that they would turn agains each other, they are organized into clans and are aparantly somewhat difficult to make work together as hinted by Moirane in tEotW: 

 

“Ko’bal,” he announced. He bounced the badge on his palm and snatched it out

of the air with a growl. “That makes seven bands so far.”

Moiraine, seated cross-legged on the ground a short distance off, shook her head

tiredly. A walking staff, covered from end to end i n carved vines and flowers, lay

across her knees, and her dress had the rumpled loo k of having been worn too long.

“Seven bands. Seven! That many have not acted toget her since the Trolloc Wars. Bad

news piles on bad news. I am afraid, Lan. I thought we had gained a march, but we

may be further behind than ever.”

 

And we have a hint that they killed each other off in the "if" world from tGH:

 

Rand's skin crawled. Where Trollocs won, they did not leave humans alive except for food. If they had

won across an entire world . . . . "If the Trollocs had won, they would be everywhere. We'd have seen a

thousand of them by now. We'd be dead since yesterday."

"I do not know, Rand. Perhaps, after they killed the people, they killed one another. Trollocs live to kill.

That is all they do; that is all they are. I just don't know."

 

Though that doesn't say anything about what would happen if the influence of the DO was removed, I am inclined to believe they would fall into a warring clan society and kill each other as readily as any humans (or ogier) they encountered.   

[Fains nose]

I think the dark one will be killed and every shadowspawn will die, in the same way trollocs die when a fade they are linked to is killed. Dont forget all forms of shadow spawn were created with the true power, the power that comes from the DO, if the DO is dead, his power is gone, therefore all shadow spawn will die