Tuon's Ethnicity?

[Jemlin]

The issue isn't the existence of very dark skinned Andorans, or Andorans being described specifically as being black, including RJ's 'tightly curled hair', et cetera.  What I take issue with is that all characters being described as 'dark' or even 'very dark' are being described as 'black people' as Kadere contests.

 

I agree with that. I don't automatically count everyone RJ describes as 'dark skinned' as black. (I certainly didn't visualise Rahvin being that way.) I do count Tuon as something like an African in appearance as she is described as looking like a 'porcelain doll'. The same seems to be true for Anath/Semirhage, although I forget her hair type.

 

It's also in no way ridiculous to attempt to draw parrallels between what's in the WoT and what's in the real world as RJ clearly and openly drew upon real world inspiritations for the sake of verisimilitude.

 

I agree to some extent, but I think it's clear that not all races fit clearly into the main ethnic groups we have in our world. Take Saldaeans for example. They're described as  having tilted eyes which suggests East Asian appearance. However their skin colour appears to be fair with strong noses*. (Actually, I don't think their skin colour was ever described, but I assume this simply because when Seanchan of the East Asian type appeared, honey coloured skin seemed a novelty.) I'm of the opinion the Sea folk are a distinct race all to themselves having skin often as dark as Africans but differing facial features and straight hair. I have seen many Indians who fit that profile.

 

That certainly doesn't contradict what we see in our world though as race has always been fluid. (Take India as an example. Indians are sometimes stereotyped as being brown skinned, lighter than Africans, darker than Europeans or Arab for that matter. In fact their skin colour can range from a light olive brown, like Spanish to as dark as someone from Africa. I've even heard accounts of some Indians in the past having blue eyes.) The races of today are quite possibly the result of the interracial mixing of the past.

 

As for racism,  it certainly does exist in the WOT world. It doesn't seem to be predicated as much (I say 'as much' as certain racial slurs have been listed, as you've said.) on physical appearance as our world in the past though. It's more cultural. Even the prejudice against Rand by Masema for his Aiel like appearance was due mainly to the fear people hold the Aiel due to their prowess in battle and perceived barbarity. Masema, a Shienaran, has faced them in battle and thus has this prejudice.

 

*Incidentally, I feel that picture of Faile that appears in the top left corner from time to time to be incorrect as it seems to be patterned on a more generic east Asian appearance particularly in skin colour. From that world's perspective she just looks like one of the races of Seanchan (bearing in mind the Seanchan are actually a diverse people not one specific race), rather than Saldaean. It is a beautiful picture though.

 

You can't say they are still practicing "racism" and say it is just on "cultural" grounds.  "Race", as it was enacted, developed and holds to European Colonialism's roots, is based on assumed physical and, almost genetic, attributes.  Where-as, the problem is that some adhere to a racial category on what you could call almost cultural grounds, they still base it on physical roots and non-cultural traits.  Cultural differences are sometimes attributed to "ethnicity" now, and that might be the closest thing to WOT universe, but it stil doesn't hold well.

 

In WoT they discriminate based on assumed characteristics based on national origin, occupation, or history.  Physical attributes are only utilized in ways of connecting them to the root of national origin, not vice versa (which is how race plays out. Physical is always the root, even if just a cultural category).

 

This is why it is so hard to just compare WoT with our "current" conception of race and ethnicity.  There is a completely different mindset. There IS discrimination in th eWoT universe, but it is based on something other than what we call race.

[Mardragon]

You can't say they are still practicing "racism" and say it is just on "cultural" grounds.  "Race", as it was enacted, developed and holds to European Colonialism's roots, is based on assumed physical and, almost genetic, attributes.  Where-as, the problem is that some adhere to a racial category on what you could call almost cultural grounds, they still base it on physical roots and non-cultural traits.  Cultural differences are sometimes attributed to "ethnicity" now, and that might be the closest thing to WOT universe, but it stil doesn't hold well.

 

Thing is, race is very much a classification we place upon ourselves. I.e DNA pretty much shows that the genes that specify as racial characteristics (skin colour, eye-folds, etc) take up a minimum of the information.

 

In WoT they discriminate based on assumed characteristics based on national origin, occupation, or history.  Physical attributes are only utilized in ways of connecting them to the root of national origin, not vice versa (which is how race plays out. Physical is always the root, even if just a cultural category).

 

That was basically what I was saying. Their prejudice is based more on culture than physical characteristics. Either way it's finding something different and foreign in someone else and discriminating against it. Feel free to substitute 'racism' for 'prejudism' if you wish.

 

[alligator]

*Incidentally, I feel that picture of Faile that appears in the top left corner from time to time to be incorrect as it seems to be patterned on a more generic east Asian appearance particularly in skin colour. From that world's perspective she just looks like one of the races of Seanchan (bearing in mind the Seanchan are actually a diverse people not one specific race), rather than Saldaean. It is a beautiful picture though.

 

...that's supposed to be Faile? Oops... always thought it was one of the Seanchan, never really put a name on who it was though, guess that wouldn't make much sense to have a random Seanchan up there  :) oh well.

I don't understand, doesn't Faile have a hawk nose?

[Mardragon]

...that's supposed to be Faile? Oops... always thought it was one of the Seanchan, never really put a name on who it was though, guess that wouldn't make much sense to have a random Seanchan up there  :) oh well.

I don't understand, doesn't Faile have a hawk nose?

 

I'm sure it's meant to be her as I don't know of any other main characters who look similar. Her nose is described as 'strong', so I imagined it being fairly long although not overly so (but obviously we all have our own differing mental images of these characters). Actually, I don't think that picture is far wrong in that aspect considering we're seeing her straight on rather than at the side.

[alligator]

I'm sure it's meant to be her as I don't know of any other main characters who look similar. Her nose is described as 'strong', so I imagined it being fairly long although not overly so (but obviously we all have our own differing mental images of these characters). Actually, I don't think that picture is far wrong in that aspect considering we're seeing her straight on rather than at the side.

 

Hm. With shorter hair, this is basically how I pictured her and her "strong" nose:

 

Just emphasizes the point of this discussion, I guess!

[Mr Ares]

why cant everyone be blue or something, it would make life so much easier.

It would lead to centuries of rivalry between light blues and dark blues. Like the boat race, only less rowing.

[Mardragon]

Hm. With shorter hair, this is basically how I pictured her and her "strong" nose:

 

That picture fits her much better! I haven't seen that before. Thanks for posting it.

[alligator]

That picture fits her much better! I haven't seen that before. Thanks for posting it.

 

You're welcome  :) The guy has done drawings for most of the characters (http://seamassketches.blogspot.com/2007/07/wheel-of-time-series-i-finally-got.html). IMO they are generally pretty accurate  :)

[Mardragon]

Thanks. Very good. Some aren't quite what I imagined, but I can see how they fit the descriptions although Taim looks too bookish to me. And Graendal... oh my. The author took 'barely opaque' as 'not opaque at all.' Oh my.

 

Anyway, sorry for waffling off topic. Since this thread concerns Tuon, here's a nice one of her here (I couldn't get the IMG tag to work):

Clickety click

I think her hair should be even shorter though as it only grows to a fuzz when with Mat.

[ravenfier]

ditto i got to say ditto to that one also i think she is a little too curvy IMO

[scion9]

im sorry to burst your bubble with the violet eyes but have you ever heard of liz taylor? violet eyes right there, and my nana has lustrous silver hair. lol :D

 

Taylor has violet eyes...in technicolor.  In photographs, recent and old her eyes are not violet.  They appear violet in a handful of technicolor movies.  Even in some of the scenes from those movies her eyes do not appear violet but a very deep blue-green which is what color they actually are and is evident from the many photographs taken of the woman. 

 

Your grandmother also does not have lustrous silver hair.  She may have gray or white hair that has a sheen, but her hair does not literally have a metallic luster.

 

The fantasy characters I'm describing do not have silver hair like this...

...as that hair is only called silver when it is in fact greying or white.

 

Even with a healthy sheen a persons hair will never resemble anything like this...

...which is how the characters in question are described. Silvery, metallic hair, and purple eyes.

[ravenfier]

From MW dictonary online-

 

Main Entry: lus·trous

Pronunciation: \ˈləs-trəs\

Function: adjective

Date: 1601

1 : reflecting light evenly and efficiently without glitter or sparkle

 

that summs up my nana's hair, lol. also I have met Taylor, yes her eyes might be blue in bright daylight or when there are bright lights shining in her eyes but just talking to her in a "regular" setting they look violet.

[Mr Ares]

im sorry to burst your bubble with the violet eyes but have you ever heard of liz taylor? violet eyes right there, and my nana has lustrous silver hair. lol :D

 

Taylor has violet eyes...in technicolor.  In photographs, recent and old her eyes are not violet.  They appear violet in a handful of technicolor movies.  Even in some of the scenes from those movies her eyes do not appear violet but a very deep blue-green which is what color they actually are and is evident from the many photographs taken of the woman. 

 

Your grandmother also does not have lustrous silver hair.  She may have gray or white hair that has a sheen, but her hair does not literally have a metallic luster.

 

The fantasy characters I'm describing do not have silver hair like this...

...as that hair is only called silver when it is in fact greying or white.

 

Even with a healthy sheen a persons hair will never resemble anything like this...

...which is how the characters in question are described. Silvery, metallic hair, and purple eyes.

What you mean is "I've never met anyone with those characteristics, therefore they can't exist."

[Beer Rot]

What you mean is "I've never met anyone with those characteristics, therefore they can't exist."

 

there are no violet eyes or silver hair, its that simple.

 

"violet" eyes are really blue, and "silver" hair is just a shade of gray.. which is just the absence of melanin in hair.

 

As for Tuon's ethnicity.  She's "african".  As are the sea folk, possibly Tairens as well, though I think they're closer to "indian".  Rahvin is "indian".  All one has to do is read the rest of the physical descriptions, he makes it quite obvious.

[ravenfier]

well you can go and say that there is no purple in nature- true it only a shade of blue, and the color silver is just a shade of grey- also true.

 

everything is based on apperance.

[Mr Ares]

What you mean is "I've never met anyone with those characteristics, therefore they can't exist."

there are no violet eyes or silver hair, its that simple.

Do you have evidence to support your assertion? So far it amounts to "they doesn't exist."

[Beer Rot]

What you mean is "I've never met anyone with those characteristics, therefore they can't exist."

there are no violet eyes or silver hair, its that simple.

Do you have evidence to support your assertion? So far it amounts to "they doesn't exist."

 

And I have yet to see you post proof that they do exist.  If you haven't learned to use google by this point, I suggest giving away your modem.

[Agitel]

As for the Targaryens, I can't speak for all of them, but Dany's got platinum blonde hair, really fair platinum blonde hair. I'll give up the violet eyes, but the hair color, for Dany, at least, is possible.

 

As for Faile, I always imagine here as more Armenian, or at least featuring certain characteristics often found in easern Europe.

[BKVMC]

"As for Faile, I always imagine here as more Armenian, or at least featuring certain characteristics often found in easern Europe."

 

Me to i  picture her in my mind looking like Kim kardashian.

[Mr Ares]

What you mean is "I've never met anyone with those characteristics, therefore they can't exist."

there are no violet eyes or silver hair, its that simple.

Do you have evidence to support your assertion? So far it amounts to "they doesn't exist."

And I have yet to see you post proof that they do exist. If you haven't learned to use google by this point, I suggest giving away your modem.

The doesn't exist crowd brought it up, they put forward the theory, therefore the burden of proof lies with them. With you.

 

As for Google, it brings up this site, saying "Violet eyes are extremely rare. However, they do occasionally occur." Urban Dictionary tells us that "The appearance of violet eyes is thought to occur from the mixing of red and blue reflections. Some albinos have eyes that appear violet. Violet eyes are genetically similar to blue eyes (i.e., they are a reflection, pigment, or variant of blue). Violet eyes are extremely rare; some people remain convinced that it is impossible to have violet colored eyes. However, violet eyes are commonly found in a few remote and high altitude areas of northern Kashmir and remote areas in Afghanistan.

Contrary to popular belief, Violet Eyes exist, but are extremely rare. Even more so than non-albino red eyes.

Violet eyes are actually so rare that many people doubt they even exist, because they've never seen violet eyes." While the evidence for them not existing is still "I've never seen them, therefore they don't exist". Where's your Google search? I'm sure we can find a good home for your modem.

[Morsker]

Wikipedia's entry on eye color doesn't mention violet at all, and the talk page is heavily against violet being anything more than a myth. Of course due to vagueness in our language, you could call something between blue and gray violet if you like.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_color

 

If you really think you have evidence to the contrary, a reliable primary or secondary source, you should get Wikipedia changed.

[Beer Rot]

What you mean is "I've never met anyone with those characteristics, therefore they can't exist."

there are no violet eyes or silver hair, its that simple.

Do you have evidence to support your assertion? So far it amounts to "they doesn't exist."

And I have yet to see you post proof that they do exist. If you haven't learned to use google by this point, I suggest giving away your modem.

The doesn't exist crowd brought it up, they put forward the theory, therefore the burden of proof lies with them. With you.

 

As for Google, it brings up this site, saying "Violet eyes are extremely rare. However, they do occasionally occur." Urban Dictionary tells us that "The appearance of violet eyes is thought to occur from the mixing of red and blue reflections. Some albinos have eyes that appear violet. Violet eyes are genetically similar to blue eyes (i.e., they are a reflection, pigment, or variant of blue). Violet eyes are extremely rare; some people remain convinced that it is impossible to have violet colored eyes. However, violet eyes are commonly found in a few remote and high altitude areas of northern Kashmir and remote areas in Afghanistan.

Contrary to popular belief, Violet Eyes exist, but are extremely rare. Even more so than non-albino red eyes.

Violet eyes are actually so rare that many people doubt they even exist, because they've never seen violet eyes." While the evidence for them not existing is still "I've never seen them, therefore they don't exist". Where's your Google search? I'm sure we can find a good home for your modem.

 

Martin-Schultz scale.  The list of colours for this scale is Amber, Blue, Green, Gray, Hazel, Brown, and "Red".  I quoted red since its nothing more than the blood vessels and not the actual colouring of the eye.

 

I can provide photographic proof coinciding with these colours.  All I've seen from you is a link to some ditzy makeup woman saying "oh yes they do exist, this is how you make them pretty!".  I do believe photographic evidence trumps hearsay.

 

Its even been stated that Liz's "violet" eyes were nothing more than a trick from the film of the day.

 

http://www.friendskorner.com/watermark.php?src=forum/photopost/data/513/elizabeth-taylor.jpg

 

they look blue in this photo.

[Mr Ares]

What you mean is "I've never met anyone with those characteristics, therefore they can't exist."

there are no violet eyes or silver hair, its that simple.

Do you have evidence to support your assertion? So far it amounts to "they doesn't exist."

And I have yet to see you post proof that they do exist. If you haven't learned to use google by this point, I suggest giving away your modem.

The doesn't exist crowd brought it up, they put forward the theory, therefore the burden of proof lies with them. With you.

 

As for Google, it brings up this site, saying "Violet eyes are extremely rare. However, they do occasionally occur." Urban Dictionary tells us that "The appearance of violet eyes is thought to occur from the mixing of red and blue reflections. Some albinos have eyes that appear violet. Violet eyes are genetically similar to blue eyes (i.e., they are a reflection, pigment, or variant of blue). Violet eyes are extremely rare; some people remain convinced that it is impossible to have violet colored eyes. However, violet eyes are commonly found in a few remote and high altitude areas of northern Kashmir and remote areas in Afghanistan.

Contrary to popular belief, Violet Eyes exist, but are extremely rare. Even more so than non-albino red eyes.

Violet eyes are actually so rare that many people doubt they even exist, because they've never seen violet eyes." While the evidence for them not existing is still "I've never seen them, therefore they don't exist". Where's your Google search? I'm sure we can find a good home for your modem.

All I've seen from you is a link to some ditzy makeup woman saying "oh yes they do exist, this is how you make them pretty!".

Then you only read half my post. You have yet to provide any evidence for it being impossible.

[Krakalakachkn]

Sorry, I'm with Ares on this one.

 

As the following picture irrefutably shows, violet eyes exist  :P

 

But seriously, here is a reasonable explanation from someone who knows what they're talking about:

The truth-- I am in my final year of an Ophthalmology fellowship. After four years of med school, five years of residency and my fellowship I can definitively state that violet eyes do exist and are natural. They are exceptionally rare. The iris has essentially three layers. An outer thin layer, a middle spongy layer, and a thin backing layer. Any and all of these layers can have varying degrees of melanin in them. The middle spongy layer also contains proteins that can be yellowish. The more melanin=more brown. Less melanin=bluer. Yellow proteins+blue=green. Yellow proteins+brown=amber. Hazel eyes are caused by any mix you can think of. This is an oversimplified explanation, but correct. Violet eyes are a kissing cousin of grey eyes (which also appear different colors based on the surrounding conditions). Grey eyes only have a small amount of melanin and it's only in the back-most iris layer and have no yellow protein. Violet eyes have almost no melanin and the purple color is caused by the blood vessels in the retina showing through. Red+Blue=Purple. Any less melanin and one would have pink albino eyes.

[Majsju]

Kids, purple eyes, silver hair, targaryens etc is a discussion about a completely different serie, by a completely different author.

 

In other words, if you want to continue that little chat, take it to a more suitable board.