A Way to Evade the Oaths (Full Spoilers)

[Durinax]

I would think that Mesaana is smart enough to recognize that holding actual rank offers nothing and simply puts her at greater risk of being found out.

 

Personally I disagree with that assessment.  Aes Sedai have full reign of the tower, Accepted do not.  The argument could be made that in some cases Accepted can get placed an Aes Sedai of a certain Ajah cannot get, and I can buy that.  But the problem here is that any Aes Sedai at any time can commandeer any Accepted to do whatever they want.  That isn't freedom to go about her plots.  As an Accepted she would be expected to attend classes, in some cases teach classes of Novices.  She would be expected to attend Aes Sedai and serve them tea etc like Egwene had to.  So all in all, I just don't personally buy the Accepted > Aes Sedai freedom argument, given in some cases it is true, but I think in the majority it isn't.

but during the time previous to Egwenes power consolidation Accepted had way more freedom of movement since they wherent part of the AS factions and where mostly ignored because of animosity towards others

[pxnsolid]

But the problem here is that any Aes Sedai at any time can commandeer any Accepted to do whatever they want.  That isn't freedom to go about her plots.

 

this doesnt really count, if you're considering who is playing accepted in this theory. yes, at face value, but when you can call on the power/abilities of a forsaken, you can still use them while disguised. look at moggy as a servent, the cook felt pity and reported what she wanted him too, when liandrin had her beaten.

[Durinax]

But the problem here is that any Aes Sedai at any time can commandeer any Accepted to do whatever they want.  That isn't freedom to go about her plots.

 

this doesnt really count, if you're considering who is playing accepted in this theory. yes, at face value, but when you can call on the power/abilities of a forsaken, you can still use them while disguised. look at moggy as a servent, the cook felt pity and reported what she wanted him too, when liandrin had her beaten.

plus saidar users are susceptable to light compelsion to avoid such tasks

[chuckievi]

But the problem here is that any Aes Sedai at any time can commandeer any Accepted to do whatever they want.  That isn't freedom to go about her plots.

 

this doesnt really count, if you're considering who is playing accepted in this theory. yes, at face value, but when you can call on the power/abilities of a forsaken, you can still use them while disguised. look at moggy as a servent, the cook felt pity and reported what she wanted him too, when liandrin had her beaten.

 

I see what you are saying, but there is a difference in scope at play.  The time that Moggy had to use her abilities on the cook was a drop in the pond compared to the time and frequency that Messanna would have to do the same in the WT as an Accepted.  I agree, it is entirely possible, I just don't think it makes nearly as much sense as posing as an Aes Sedai.  Toss in the MoM breaking to reveal a dress that is decidedly not that of an Accepted, and the Messy is an Accepted theory need even more excuses and twists to stay relevant.

 

but during the time previous to Egwenes power consolidation Accepted had way more freedom of movement since they wherent part of the AS factions and where mostly ignored because of animosity towards others

 

right, which is why I said this:

 

Aes Sedai have full reign of the tower, Accepted do not.  The argument could be made that in some cases Accepted can get placed an Aes Sedai of a certain Ajah cannot get, and I can buy that.

 

[pxnsolid]

I just don't think it makes nearly as much sense as posing as an Aes Sedai

 

agree'd, just put in to show its possible

[Aquarius]

With the WT power structure, maybe strength is the real key here.

- A powerfull Accepted will have many lessons, many AS trying to pull her to her own Ajah

- A powerfull Sister will be Sitter, or Ajah head, etc... someone with responsabilities

 

Whereas:

A very weak Accepted with next to no chance of ever gaining the shawl will be overlooked by everybody

A very weak AS, (like Daighan?), will always stand in the back.

 

All in all, I believe a weak AS will have more problems: there will always be more powerfull AS to order her around. Whereas as Accepted, they would just ignore her.

[Mat Comes With The Dawn]

We all know that the Oath Rod is kind of about intent of the user, and lies within them. As probably mentioned before, you can speak a lie if you believe it to be truth.

 

But the first Oath is very shoddy. "To speak no word that is not true" can have different meanings. There is the most obvious one, where Aes Sedai can't lie. There is a purely literal one, where all Aes Sedai can say is "true true true true". There's also the part where Rand asks Moiraine if Aes Sedai could lie in writing, but since Aes Sedai take the first meaning where lying is forbidden, it would still be a lie, so it would seem that intent is key there. After all, if the Oath Rod acted like a machine, it would probably take the most literal view, and Aes Sedai vocabulary would consist of one word.

 

So perhaps if you take the oath a certain way when you swear it, it makes a difference. There's a third way of looking at the oath. "No word" is singular. Is there a word that is not true? Not at all, true and false come with statements, and though statements are made of words, no single word in a statement can be true or false in a vacuum, though a single word can be the operator in whether a statement is true or false.

 

So, perhaps Mesaana took the oath thinking that way. Of course, it's a much less simpler explanation than her saying she's not a Darkfriend/Black Ajah being true, because she is not one, but rather one of the Chosen, of which I'm sure has been mentioned to death here.

[StefanR]

We all know that the Oath Rod is kind of about intent of the user, and lies within them. As probably mentioned before, you can speak a lie if you believe it to be truth.

 

But the first Oath is very shoddy. "To speak no word that is not true" can have different meanings. There is the most obvious one, where Aes Sedai can't lie. There is a purely literal one, where all Aes Sedai can say is "true true true true". There's also the part where Rand asks Moiraine if Aes Sedai could lie in writing, but since Aes Sedai take the first meaning where lying is forbidden, it would still be a lie, so it would seem that intent is key there. After all, if the Oath Rod acted like a machine, it would probably take the most literal view, and Aes Sedai vocabulary would consist of one word.

 

So perhaps if you take the oath a certain way when you swear it, it makes a difference. There's a third way of looking at the oath. "No word" is singular. Is there a word that is not true? Not at all, true and false come with statements, and though statements are made of words, no single word in a statement can be true or false in a vacuum, though a single word can be the operator in whether a statement is true or false.

 

So, perhaps Mesaana took the oath thinking that way. Of course, it's a much less simpler explanation than her saying she's not a Darkfriend/Black Ajah being true, because she is not one, but rather one of the Chosen, of which I'm sure has been mentioned to death here.

 

Which still doesn't beat the other two oaths. Thus not defeating the oath rod, just one oath

[mb]

mb, the sound was delayed. Both spoke at the same time, but then seconds later both voices played and they heard each others' answer.

Delayed hearing seems more accurate than delayed sound.  To delay sound, they may need to like suspend the sound in air which may require a considerable amount of effort.

Still a chance of Compulsion; they could have giving an order on when the participants would hear.

 

 

Though regardless whether or not the Wise Ones could delay sound, I doubt Mesaana used any such technique.

 

[FarShainMael]

The speed of sound in air depends on the air temperature, increasing as air heats, dropping as it cools. So you could play with Fire to suck heat out of air and slow sound. However, the amount of cooling needed would surely be noticeable.

 

[Mat Comes With The Dawn]

We all know that the Oath Rod is kind of about intent of the user, and lies within them. As probably mentioned before, you can speak a lie if you believe it to be truth.

 

But the first Oath is very shoddy. "To speak no word that is not true" can have different meanings. There is the most obvious one, where Aes Sedai can't lie. There is a purely literal one, where all Aes Sedai can say is "true true true true". There's also the part where Rand asks Moiraine if Aes Sedai could lie in writing, but since Aes Sedai take the first meaning where lying is forbidden, it would still be a lie, so it would seem that intent is key there. After all, if the Oath Rod acted like a machine, it would probably take the most literal view, and Aes Sedai vocabulary would consist of one word.

 

So perhaps if you take the oath a certain way when you swear it, it makes a difference. There's a third way of looking at the oath. "No word" is singular. Is there a word that is not true? Not at all, true and false come with statements, and though statements are made of words, no single word in a statement can be true or false in a vacuum, though a single word can be the operator in whether a statement is true or false.

 

So, perhaps Mesaana took the oath thinking that way. Of course, it's a much less simpler explanation than her saying she's not a Darkfriend/Black Ajah being true, because she is not one, but rather one of the Chosen, of which I'm sure has been mentioned to death here.

 

Which still doesn't beat the other two oaths. Thus not defeating the oath rod, just one oath

 

What about the other two oaths?

[Sharaman]

The speed of sound in air depends on the air temperature, increasing as air heats, dropping as it cools. So you could play with Fire to suck heat out of air and slow sound. However, the amount of cooling needed would surely be noticeable.

 

 

Sound is a longitudinal wave - it needs a medium.

Maybe solidify the air around the sound wave, creating a box or cube, inside which the longitudinal waves can bounce around. Then you release the weave, when required.

Anyhow it can be done in Randland, and sound waves can also be amplified / completely baffled with the power,

 

[Aquarius]

The speed of sound in air depends on the air temperature, increasing as air heats, dropping as it cools. So you could play with Fire to suck heat out of air and slow sound. However, the amount of cooling needed would surely be noticeable.

 

 

Sound is a longitudinal wave - it needs a medium.

Maybe solidify the air around the sound wave, creating a box or cube, inside which the longitudinal waves can bounce around. Then you release the weave, when required.

Anyhow it can be done in Randland, and sound waves can also be amplified / completely baffled with the power,

 

The true magic of this is that channelers have no idea what sound waves are and what needing a medium means. The weave they apply to the sound is nothing like what we can link to sound waves. It's one of those "it just work like that" moments.

[FarShainMael]

The speed of sound in air depends on the air temperature, increasing as air heats, dropping as it cools. So you could play with Fire to suck heat out of air and slow sound. However, the amount of cooling needed would surely be noticeable.

 

 

Sound is a longitudinal wave - it needs a medium.

Maybe solidify the air around the sound wave, creating a box or cube, inside which the longitudinal waves can bounce around. Then you release the weave, when required.

Anyhow it can be done in Randland, and sound waves can also be amplified / completely baffled with the power,

 

A technical aside:  Something similar to this used to be done in electronic line standards converters, but (I think) with light. (Devices that converted the older 625/525 TV signals so they could be used in different countries.)

 

Aquarius is right - the channeller doesn't need to know how their weave works, just that it does work. It's fun for us to try to work out how, though!  ;)

 

[Sharaman]

The speed of sound in air depends on the air temperature, increasing as air heats, dropping as it cools. So you could play with Fire to suck heat out of air and slow sound. However, the amount of cooling needed would surely be noticeable.

 

 

Sound is a longitudinal wave - it needs a medium.

Maybe solidify the air around the sound wave, creating a box or cube, inside which the longitudinal waves can bounce around. Then you release the weave, when required.

Anyhow it can be done in Randland, and sound waves can also be amplified / completely baffled with the power,

 

A technical aside:  Something similar to this used to be done in electronic line standards converters, but (I think) with light. (Devices that converted the older 625/525 TV signals so they could be used in different countries.)

 

Aquarius is right - the channeller doesn't need to know how their weave works, just that it does work. It's fun for us to try to work out how, though!  ;)

 

 

Yes, it's similar. 

[El Dude]

I was wondering since im at college and don't have my books handy, does ewgene ask if they are dark friends or ask if they are members of the black ajah.  The second seems like it would be much easier to get around, because telling the lie depends on whether or not you believe something to be true.  And it seems like you could convince yourself you are no longer black ajah if you had those three oaths removed when you foreswear all oaths.  However, it is a moot point if she asks are you a darkfriend.  Any clarification would be greatly appreciated, Thanks

[MikeRiley]

It's been a while since I read the book now, but I believe there were no questions asked. They simply stated that they weren't Black Ajah after the oath against lying. This would have caught any BA who didn't have a trick up their sleeve.

 

But that defeats only one oath. Whatever method is used, it is used to defeat all 3.

[mb]

And it seems like you could convince yourself you are no longer black ajah if you had those three oaths removed when you foreswear all oaths.  However, it is a moot point if she asks are you a darkfriend.

Actually, the convincing self could be applied to either; also any similar statement.

 

[Sharaman]

And it seems like you could convince yourself you are no longer black ajah if you had those three oaths removed when you foreswear all oaths.  However, it is a moot point if she asks are you a darkfriend.

Actually, the convincing self could be applied to either.

 

 

Egwene and Romanda swore " I am not a Darkfriend and I have never been". Similar for the BA hunters in TPoD. So, I'm assuming  that is what the other AS also swore.

In any case, the context of Brandon's response that set off this thread makes it clear that it's not semantic jugglery about one specific oath, There's a way to beat the oath rod.

[Lambada]

I just had a thought about this.

 

We know that the Oath Rod trumps the a'dam.

I believe that some other weave can easily trump the Oath Rod.

 

The A'dam fits around someones skin.

The Oath Rod weaves are placed directly onto someones skin.

Notice how the OR is closer to the channelers internal channeling duct (We got a sense of it when the Healing of Stilling was discovered).

 

I believe that a weave that actually goes under the skin (think Healing of Stilling type) could trump the Oath Rod.

 

In essence, the closer a weave is to a channelers internal 'bridge' (the one that is cut when stilled), the higher up in the order of precedence it is.

 

The particulars of the weave I do not know - that would need me to think someone.

[Sharaman]

I just had a thought about this.

 

We know that the Oath Rod trumps the a'dam.

I believe that some other weave can easily trump the Oath Rod.

 

The A'dam fits around someones skin.

The Oath Rod weaves are placed directly onto someones skin.

Notice how the OR is closer to the channelers internal channeling duct (We got a sense of it when the Healing of Stilling was discovered).

 

I believe that a weave that actually goes under the skin (think Healing of Stilling type) could trump the Oath Rod.

 

In essence, the closer a weave is to a channelers internal 'bridge' (the one that is cut when stilled), the higher up in the order of precedence it is.

 

The particulars of the weave I do not know - that would need me to think someone.

 

Sorry I honestly don't get what you're saying.

Is it something like the A'dam cannot force a channeler to break an oath taken on the OR?

As far as we know, neither can anything else - if there's a conflict between oaths, the AS dies.

Also are you saying there's some "anti-oath" weave that removes the oaths?

We've never seen any such - the only way we know is to forswear the oath by taking another oath. Or to be stilled in which case the oaths are automatically nullified.

 

 

[Lambada]

Sorry I honestly don't get what you're saying.

Is it something like the A'dam cannot force a channeler to break an oath taken on the OR?

As far as we know, neither can anything else - if there's a conflict between oaths, the AS dies.

Also are you saying there's some "anti-oath" weave that removes the oaths?

We've never seen any such - the only way we know is to forswear the oath by taking another oath. Or to be stilled in which case the oaths are automatically nullified.

 

Hmm.. my explanation was less than clear - that;s what I get for posting immediately.

 

The a'dam cannot break the Oath Rod oaths.

We most certainly know that something can break Oath Rod Oaths - otherwise Messanna would have been revealed. I think the weakness is different to wordplay / invisible barrier between the OR and the swearer.

[As a side note, to remove Oaths doesn't require the swearing of another Oath. Merely for you to unswear the previously taken Oaths. The effect of swearing and unswearing is different, thus they cannot be the same].

 

I don't think it's an anti-Oath weave as such, merely that another weave that happens / stays internally (Healing, possibly Compulsion?) may have the unintended consequence of allowing the OR to appear to function as normal, but actually override the Oath itself - if its purpose conflicts with the sworn Oath.

 

[in my next example, I shall assume Compulsion as that appears to happen internally, but it could be something else such as a mind-trap - the means is irrelevant so long as it is something that involves your internal mind/body/channeling-bridge]

 

To elaborate on this a bit, Assuming an OathRod oath against lying, an order received with an a'dam to lie does not cause death as the Oath Rod takes precedence, being nearer to the persons channeling-bridge. Another Oath taken on the OR to speak a lie causes death as neither thing has precedence, both being the same distance to your channeler-bridge. Something internal [Compulsion/MindTrap] that tries to force you to lie would not cause death, and you would be able to lie, as the internal [coompulsion/mindtrap] takes precedence, being closer to your channeling-bridge.

 

I think that might make my theory a bit clearer, i'm still not sure on it myself - it requires a big shift in the way we think of controlling devices.

[Durinax]

I think that its still somethign really simple, like not directly touching the oath rod. Cause I think that the fundamental flaw of the OR is that it can bind and unbind, both require a weave of spirit, she could even use an illusion on teh numbers on the OR so that tehy are channelling into the side that takes off oaths, so long as teh illusion doesnt cover the whole rod it could be easily pulled off

[Morsker]

I like a variant of the sleepweaver ter'angreal theory posted a while back. The other theory was that the ter'angreals conflict and the Oath doesn't work. But I prefer that if you're in halfway in T'A'R with the sleepweaver, the Oath doesn't stick because too much of your consciousness isn't there. Amys has this to say about it in tFoH:

"When a Dreamwalker enters the World of Dreams in her sleep, only a tiny bit of her remains with her body, just enough to keep her body alive. If she puts herself in a shadow sleep, where she can be here and also speak to those around her in the waking world, she looks as you do to one who is here fully. Perhaps it is the same. I don't know that I like it, any woman who can channel being able to enter Tel'aran'rhiod, even in this state."

Our heroes don't know how to use the sleepweaver this way, and still be half-awake. But if Amys is right that it's the same, maybe Messana knows how, and can speak the Oaths while still being partly in T'A'R.

 

[DemandredFO]

She definately wanted the sleepweavers for something and I doubt it was dreaming because the foresaken can just make gateways into T'A'R also doubt it's to keep the AS out because of the possibility of them killing themselves.  It could be the T'A'R thing, if there is a way to beat the rod there may still be black sisters in the tower.  I hope so, Egwene needs as much head deflation as she can get.